Talk:BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

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Archived Tiki forum discussion for BPFK Section: Numeric selbri. Original authors, UTC times, and post IDs are retained below.

BPFK Section: Numeric selbri (Tiki thread #1867)

Re: BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2004-08-06 21:39 UTC · Tiki post #1868 (reply to #1867)

Boy, are these definitions in English (and only sllightly less so in Lojban) opaque. Why not just say "is *number* in number," "is the *number*th member of X2 according to ordering X3" and so on? While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope."

BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

xorxes · 2004-08-06 23:33 UTC · Tiki post #1875 (reply to #1867)

pc:

> Boy, are these definitions in English (and only sllightly less so in Lojban) > opaque. Why not just say "is *number* in number," "is the *number*th member > of X2 according to ordering X3" and so on?

Good point, thank you. The reason for the somewhat opaque definitions is that I want them to apply not just to the {number MOI} construct but also to the {ME sumti MOI} one. But I can give both the restricted definition for numbers as well as the general one for any sumti.

> While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the > probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a > concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope."

Yes, I always thought that place of {pacna} was funny for the "hope" gloss. In Spanish, "esperar" means both "to hope" and "to expect" (it also means "to wait" but that's not relevant here) so I suppose someone thought that {pacna} in Lojban could also cover both. But if so, they should have used "expect" as the keyword. A place for an expectation value is useful to have, but I agree that mixing it with hope/wish/desire just doesn't make any sense. And I don't see why {pacna} has to encroach like that into {djica} territory either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

rab.spir · 2004-08-06 23:33 UTC · Tiki post #1880 (reply to #1867)

On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 03:32:47PM -0700, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:

> > While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the > > probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a > > concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope." > > Yes, I always thought that place of {pacna} was funny for the "hope" gloss. > In Spanish, "esperar" means both "to hope" and "to expect" (it also > means "to wait" but that's not relevant here) so I suppose someone thought > that {pacna} in Lojban could also cover both. But if so, they should have > used "expect" as the keyword. A place for an expectation value is useful > to have, but I agree that mixing it with hope/wish/desire just doesn't > make any sense. And I don't see why {pacna} has to encroach like > that into {djica} territory either.

I think that the probability place of {pacna} is useful, and that the fault is in "hope" being the keyword. There are other cases of misleading keywords in the gismu list. --

Rob Speer

BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

xorxes · 2004-08-07 03:06 UTC · Tiki post #1885 (reply to #1867)

Rob Speer:

> I think that the probability place of {pacna} is useful, and that the fault > is > in "hope" being the keyword. There are other cases of misleading keywords in > the gismu list.

I would agree, except that "hope" is not just the keyword, but the whole definition as it is: "x1 hopes/wishes for/desires x2" when it should be "x1 expects x2".

One problem with "fixing" this might be Nick's translation of MLK's "I have a dream" speech, that uses {mi pacna} all over the place.

mu'o mi'e xorxes




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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2004-08-07 03:06 UTC · Tiki post #1890 (reply to #1867)

Since the ME + sumti are always going to evaluate to a number (though perhaps not very definitely), I don't see the need for the second version.

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote:

pc: > Boy, are these definitions in English (and only sllightly less so in Lojban) > opaque. Why not just say "is *number* in number," "is the *number*th member > of X2 according to ordering X3" and so on?

Good point, thank you. The reason for the somewhat opaque definitions is that I want them to apply not just to the {number MOI} construct but also to the {ME sumti MOI} one. But I can give both the restricted definition for numbers as well as the general one for any sumti.

> While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the > probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a > concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope."

Yes, I always thought that place of {pacna} was funny for the "hope" gloss. In Spanish, "esperar" means both "to hope" and "to expect" (it also means "to wait" but that's not relevant here) so I suppose someone thought that {pacna} in Lojban could also cover both. But if so, they should have used "expect" as the keyword. A place for an expectation value is useful to have, but I agree that mixing it with hope/wish/desire just doesn't make any sense. And I don't see why {pacna} has to encroach like that into {djica} territory either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2004-08-07 03:06 UTC · Tiki post #1892 (reply to #1867)

Well, I think we need ^hope^ as a gismu since sorting it out as an analytic lujvo (about the only kind we see) is going to be a pain. I am not clear what notion vaguely in the ^hope^-^want^ space has a reasonable use for probability. It can be added to stress the forlornness of the hope, perhaps, but it really is an addition.

Rob Speer <[email protected]> wrote:On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 03:32:47PM -0700, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the > > probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a > > concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope." > > Yes, I always thought that place of {pacna} was funny for the "hope" gloss. > In Spanish, "esperar" means both "to hope" and "to expect" (it also > means "to wait" but that's not relevant here) so I suppose someone thought > that {pacna} in Lojban could also cover both. But if so, they should have > used "expect" as the keyword. A place for an expectation value is useful > to have, but I agree that mixing it with hope/wish/desire just doesn't > make any sense. And I don't see why {pacna} has to encroach like > that into {djica} territory either.

I think that the probability place of {pacna} is useful, and that the fault is in "hope" being the keyword. There are other cases of misleading keywords in the gismu list. --

Rob Speer

BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

xorxes · 2004-08-07 03:07 UTC · Tiki post #1897 (reply to #1867)

pc:

> Since the ME + sumti are always going to evaluate to a number (though perhaps > not very definitely), I don't see the need for the second version.

{me mi moi} for example is "x1 is/are the one(s) among x2 that correspond(s) to me by rule x3", in other words "x1 is/are my x2's by rule x3".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2004-08-07 16:58 UTC · Tiki post #1905 (reply to #1867)

?? So, this shows what (other than that we don't know -- until we work through Rule 3 and my place -- what the number is)?

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote: pc: > Since the ME + sumti are always going to evaluate to a number (though perhaps > not very definitely), I don't see the need for the second version.

{me mi moi} for example is "x1 is/are the one(s) among x2 that correspond(s) to me by rule x3", in other words "x1 is/are my x2's by rule x3".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

xorxes · 2004-08-07 16:58 UTC · Tiki post #1908 (reply to #1867)

--- John E Clifford <[email protected]> wrote:

> ?? So, this shows what (other than that we don't know -- until we work > through Rule 3 and my place -- what the number is)?

There need not be any numbers involved. The rule might be "is the one wearing it", then {ta memimoi lo mapku lo ka makau dasni ce'u} "That's mine among hats by rule who's wearing it".

Of course in general the rule won't be given explicitly, and also maybe not the x2: {ta medomoi}, "that's yours".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2004-08-07 16:58 UTC · Tiki post #1909 (reply to #1867)

Can {moi} really do this? It is, of course, the original {me} (a baby's first Loglan was {memi}) and so a needed device, but it is hard to see it as an ordering. I gather though that the ordering part has here been reduce merely to a correlation with something or other, not necessarily an ordinal. I'm not convinced an the example given is so weird (unintelligible) that it doesn't help me out much.

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote: --- John E Clifford wrote: > ?? So, this shows what (other than that we don't know -- until we work > through Rule 3 and my place -- what the number is)?

There need not be any numbers involved. The rule might be "is the one wearing it", then {ta memimoi lo mapku lo ka makau dasni ce'u} "That's mine among hats by rule who's wearing it".

Of course in general the rule won't be given explicitly, and also maybe not the x2: {ta medomoi}, "that's yours".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

Anonymous · 2005-01-11 23:08 UTC · Tiki post #3530 (reply to #1867)

Re: BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

Boy, are these definitions in English (and only sllightly less so in Lojban) opaque. Why not just say "is *number* in number," "is the *number*th member of X2 according to ordering X3" and so on?

While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope."

BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2005-01-11 23:09 UTC · Tiki post #3531 (reply to #1867)

Since the ME + sumti are always going to evaluate to a number (though perhaps not very definitely), I don't see the need for the second version.

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote:

pc: > Boy, are these definitions in English (and only sllightly less so in Lojban) > opaque. Why not just say "is *number* in number," "is the *number*th member > of X2 according to ordering X3" and so on?

Good point, thank you. The reason for the somewhat opaque definitions is that I want them to apply not just to the {number MOI} construct but also to the {ME sumti MOI} one. But I can give both the restricted definition for numbers as well as the general one for any sumti.

> While you are dropping (on another thread) superfluous places, the > probbability place in {pacna} is a natural to go, since it has no place in a > concept that can reasonably be correlated with "hope."

Yes, I always thought that place of {pacna} was funny for the "hope" gloss. In Spanish, "esperar" means both "to hope" and "to expect" (it also means "to wait" but that's not relevant here) so I suppose someone thought that {pacna} in Lojban could also cover both. But if so, they should have used "expect" as the keyword. A place for an expectation value is useful to have, but I agree that mixing it with hope/wish/desire just doesn't make any sense. And I don't see why {pacna} has to encroach like that into {djica} territory either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2005-01-11 23:09 UTC · Tiki post #3532 (reply to #1867)

?? So, this shows what (other than that we don't know -- until we work through Rule 3 and my place -- what the number is)?

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote: pc: > Since the ME + sumti are always going to evaluate to a number (though perhaps > not very definitely), I don't see the need for the second version.

{me mi moi} for example is "x1 is/are the one(s) among x2 that correspond(s) to me by rule x3", in other words "x1 is/are my x2's by rule x3".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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BPFK Section: Numeric selbri

pycyn · 2005-01-11 23:09 UTC · Tiki post #3533 (reply to #1867)

Can {moi} really do this? It is, of course, the original {me} (a baby's first Loglan was {memi}) and so a needed device, but it is hard to see it as an ordering. I gather though that the ordering part has here been reduce merely to a correlation with something or other, not necessarily an ordinal. I'm not convinced an the example given is so weird (unintelligible) that it doesn't help me out much.

Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> wrote: --- John E Clifford wrote: > ?? So, this shows what (other than that we don't know -- until we work > through Rule 3 and my place -- what the number is)?

There need not be any numbers involved. The rule might be "is the one wearing it", then {ta memimoi lo mapku lo ka makau dasni ce'u} "That's mine among hats by rule who's wearing it".

Of course in general the rule won't be given explicitly, and also maybe not the x2: {ta medomoi}, "that's yours".

mu'o mi'e xorxes



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