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[[Pronunciation guide in English|Pronunciation guide]] | |||
[[ | ==[http://pastebin.com/MGwfXwXn Lesson 1 logs]== | ||
<pre> | |||
[http:// | 15:00 < llrcombs> 3 | ||
15:00 < llrcombs> 2 | |||
15:00 < llrcombs> 1 | |||
15:00 < llrcombs> (points at XMPPwocky) | |||
15:01 <~XMPPwocky> *blows one of those honker-boner things* | |||
15:01 * Hamra throws a chalk at llrcombs | |||
15:01 * llrcombs sits down in his comfy drafting chair | |||
15:01 < AlcariTheMad> how long is this lesson going to last? | |||
15:01 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: an hour or so, including questions | |||
15:02 < AlcariTheMad> k | |||
15:02 < llrcombs> that or until either the teacher or the entire class goes AFK | |||
15:02 < llrcombs> so I | |||
15:02 < llrcombs> 'd say it should be the hour | |||
15:02 < llrcombs> 'cause I'm interested and XMPPwocky isn't incompetent | |||
15:02 <~XMPPwocky> alright, Lojban! | |||
15:02 < llrcombs> yes! | |||
15:02 <~XMPPwocky> i'm going to start with shameless plagarism from the Lojban "specification" (reference grammar): | |||
15:03 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban (pronounced “LOZH-bahn”) is a constructed language. Previous versions of the language were called “Loglan” by Dr. James Cooke Brown, who founded the Loglan Project and started the development of the language in 1955. The goals for the language were first described in the open literature in the article “Loglan”, published in Scientific American, June, 1960. Made well-known by that article and by occasional references in science fiction (most notably in Robert Heinlein’s novel The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress) and computer publications, Loglan and Lojban have been built over four decades by dozens of workers and hundreds of supporters, led since 1987 by The Logical Language Group (who are the publishers of this book). | |||
15:03 <~XMPPwocky> it's based on predicate logic, which programmers are familiar with (although they may not know it) | |||
15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the grammar is unambiguous (this does not mean what you may think it means! It's perfectly legal to be ambiguous) | |||
15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the meaning is ambiguous, but the relationships between words are not | |||
15:04 * llrcombs takes notes by turning on logging | |||
15:05 <~XMPPwocky> there are 1300 root words, gismu, and a few hundred more structure words, cmavo | |||
15:05 <~XMPPwocky> the language provides for combining those to mean anything | |||
15:06 <~XMPPwocky> via a structure called a tanru, based on metaphor; similar to natural languages, you don't need a word for "blue house", you use words for blue and words for house | |||
15:06 <~XMPPwocky> and, it has phonetic spelling | |||
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> no silent letters | |||
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> understood? | |||
15:07 < llrcombs> yes | |||
15:07 < taoistextremist> Yes. | |||
15:07 < AlcariTheMad> yes | |||
15:07 * llrcombs dislikes silent letters | |||
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> great | |||
15:08 <~XMPPwocky> (hold on, google docs is being slow) | |||
15:09 <~XMPPwocky> alright | |||
15:09 <~XMPPwocky> who here is a programmer? | |||
15:09 < llrcombs> I am! | |||
15:10 <~XMPPwocky> okay, this next part is pretty trivial then | |||
15:10 < AlcariTheMad> me too | |||
15:10 < Hamra> me too | |||
15:10 <~XMPPwocky> again cribbing from the reference grammar: consider the following 3 sentence | |||
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam. John is the father of Sam. John is taller than Sam. | |||
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> ... wow, that's actually pretty disturbing | |||
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> but anyways | |||
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> those are all relationships between John and Sam | |||
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> you could rewrite them in "subject-verb-object form" | |||
15:12 < AlcariTheMad> (they kept those sentences in the print version) | |||
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam, John is-the-father-of Sam, and John is-taller-than Sam. | |||
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> in English, though | |||
15:13 <~XMPPwocky> even though they're all relationships, you use a verb in one, an verb and a noun ("is" and "the father") in another, and a verb and an adjective in the third | |||
15:13 <~XMPPwocky> like most things in English, this is confusing | |||
15:14 < llrcombs> John.hit(Sam) | |||
15:14 < llrcombs> John.isFatherOf(sam) | |||
15:14 <~XMPPwocky> Predicate logic, basically, is describing things with relationships | |||
15:14 < Hamra> more like: hit(john, sam) | |||
15:14 <~XMPPwocky> you have the type of relationship, and the things being related | |||
15:15 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: what Hamra said; it's not object oriented | |||
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: ^ | |||
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> so, if John hits Sam | |||
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> you might say, (thanks Hamra), hit(john, sam) | |||
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> "hit" is the type of relation | |||
15:16 < llrcombs> isFather(john, sam) | |||
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> john and sam are the things being related | |||
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> yep, exactly | |||
15:16 < llrcombs> and that's the word order in lojban? | |||
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> no | |||
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban calls the type of relation the "selbri" | |||
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> and that being related is/are the "sumti" | |||
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> the combination of those is the "bridi"; the most common form of a sentence | |||
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban is quite flexible with the positioning of the sumti | |||
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> you can say, john sam hit | |||
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> or john hit sam | |||
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> 99% of the time, it's john hit sam | |||
15:18 < llrcombs> can you say hit john sam? | |||
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> no, I'll explain why in a sec | |||
15:18 < AlcariTheMad> like keyword arguments in some programming languages | |||
15:19 < AlcariTheMad> hit(hitter=john, hittee=sam) | |||
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly | |||
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> so, a given selbri has a fixed "place structure" | |||
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> think of it as a function signature | |||
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> I'll use "john is the father of sam" as an example | |||
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> remember when I was talking about gismu, root words? | |||
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> they can be used directly as selbri | |||
15:21 <~XMPPwocky> thus they have a fixed place structure | |||
15:21 <~XMPPwocky> the structure of patfu is: x1 is a father of x2 | |||
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> like def patfu(father, fathered_thing) | |||
15:22 < AlcariTheMad> s/fathered_thing/child/ | |||
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> yep | |||
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> if I wanted to say "John is the father of Sam" | |||
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> I would use the following very simple bridi | |||
15:23 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban | |||
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> .i la .djan. patfu la .sam. | |||
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> the .i starts a sentence | |||
15:23 < llrcombs> ack punctuation | |||
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> it's pronounced | |||
15:24 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Periods represent a pause | |||
15:24 <~XMPPwocky> keeps starting vowels or names in their place | |||
15:24 < Hamra> ee la djan patfoo la sam? | |||
15:25 < Hamra> pronounciation | |||
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> djan is pronounced like English "John" | |||
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> alright, pronunciation interlude (woo!) | |||
15:25 < llrcombs> "an" = "ohn" | |||
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> lojban has six vowels | |||
15:25 < llrcombs> "dj" = "j" | |||
15:25 < llrcombs> aeiouy, right? | |||
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> each of those make a specific, predetermined sound | |||
15:26 < AlcariTheMad> ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, uh | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, but "y" is off | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father | |||
15:26 < llrcombs> define off | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: sounds different | |||
15:26 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: the last a in america | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father | |||
15:26 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban [Quitte] | |||
15:26 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: the shwa, right? | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> e as in get | |||
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yep | |||
15:27 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban | |||
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> i as in green or machine | |||
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> o as in joke or note | |||
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> u as in cool | |||
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> and y is the schwa | |||
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> uh | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> then, consonants | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottl | |||
15:28 < llrcombs> so a and y are "ah" and "uh"? | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, exactly | |||
15:28 < llrcombs> is there an "AY"? | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> yes, that's a dipthong | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> I'll get to those after consonants | |||
15:28 < llrcombs> OK | |||
15:28 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban [] | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottle, c as in... | |||
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> not cat! | |||
15:28 < llrcombs> ch? | |||
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yes | |||
15:29 < llrcombs> chocolate? | |||
15:29 < AlcariTheMad> sh | |||
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> C goes "ch" | |||
15:29 < Hamra> ch or sh? | |||
15:29 < llrcombs> ch | |||
15:29 < AlcariTheMad> no, tc goes 'ch' | |||
15:29 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: then what | |||
15:29 < llrcombs> 's c? | |||
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yeah, ch | |||
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> *sh | |||
15:30 < llrcombs> damn you, return key!!! | |||
15:30 < llrcombs> so as in shake? | |||
15:30 < llrcombs> and tc is chocolate? | |||
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> shake, or ship | |||
15:30 < Hamra> yeah | |||
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> yep | |||
15:30 < Hamra> tcokolet | |||
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> now, d as in dance, F as in fall, G as in goose, J as in... | |||
15:30 < llrcombs> tcakolate or tcokolet? | |||
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> not John! | |||
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> tcakolate is | |||
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> ch-ahko-late | |||
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> you'd leave off the final E | |||
15:32 < llrcombs> oh yeah, no silent letters | |||
15:32 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: there's also a quote word that indicates english pronounciation | |||
15:32 < llrcombs> J as in... | |||
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> J as in measure | |||
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> or bonjour | |||
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> the J of John is "dj" | |||
15:32 < llrcombs> I thought bonjour had the same J as john | |||
15:33 < Hamra> a J without the leading "d" | |||
15:33 <~XMPPwocky> it's a "sh" | |||
15:33 < llrcombs> (as far as sound goes) | |||
15:33 <~XMPPwocky> but vibrate your vocal cords | |||
15:33 < llrcombs> zhuh? | |||
15:34 < llrcombs> (that was my attempt at reproducing what I think that might sound like in text) | |||
15:34 <~XMPPwocky> as in french jean-luc | |||
15:34 < llrcombs> or jaques | |||
15:34 < Hamra> llrcombs: more people pronounce it djon, djar, djug, etc.. in lojba, a "j" is just a j, no leading "d" | |||
15:34 < llrcombs> zhack | |||
15:35 <~XMPPwocky> yes | |||
15:35 <~XMPPwocky> but not "dzack" | |||
15:35 <~XMPPwocky> get it? | |||
15:37 -!- rawrmage [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban | |||
15:37 < rawrmage> omg | |||
15:37 < rawrmage> coi ro do | |||
15:37 < Hamra> coi | |||
15:38 < AlcariTheMad> coi | |||
15:38 <~XMPPwocky> coi | |||
15:39 < rawrmage> .ui cai mi na pu jinvi lo du'u ti se irci binxo lo tolcando | |||
15:39 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: so, you see the difference between j and dj? | |||
15:39 < llrcombs> yes | |||
15:39 < llrcombs> how do you pronounce starting a sentence with a pause? | |||
15:39 <~XMPPwocky> you don't :P | |||
15:40 < llrcombs> so what's the point of the leading .? | |||
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> just a reminder | |||
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> actually | |||
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> all pauses are just reminders | |||
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> they're mandated by the rules of the language | |||
15:40 < rawrmage> .ije .y. caku xu ti se irci ponse lo valsi irci minji | |||
15:40 < AlcariTheMad> every word in lojban ends in a vowel, the periods go at the beginning of words that start with vowels to stop them from running together when spoken | |||
15:41 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly | |||
15:42 < Hamra> french speakers might be more familiar with this | |||
15:42 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: no bots yet | |||
15:42 < rawrmage> je'e | |||
15:42 < rawrmage> xu do platu lo nu finti | |||
15:42 < AlcariTheMad> (technically, every gismu, cmavo, and lujvo ends in a vowel; names generally don't, to distinguish them) | |||
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: names /always/ don't | |||
15:43 < rawrmage> i'm pretty sure with dotside they can, though | |||
15:43 * Hamra is still at names, cmene, in his lojban lessons | |||
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: hmm, I didn't see anything about that | |||
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> oh, yeah, we should probably get back on tract | |||
15:44 < llrcombs> was that "can I put my IRC bot in this channel?"? | |||
15:44 < rawrmage> let me ask | |||
15:44 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: is it true that you are planning to make unspecified thing (from context, a bot) | |||
15:44 < rawrmage> no, apparently not I must have misremembered | |||
15:45 <~XMPPwocky> okay, so, letters after J | |||
15:45 < llrcombs> k! | |||
15:45 < llrcombs> k goes k | |||
15:45 <~XMPPwocky> and c as in cat | |||
15:45 < Hamra> there's "h"... but it doesnt exist | |||
15:45 < Hamra> c as in sh | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> yes. my kat cat in its litterbox | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> l as in "late" or "lick" | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> m as in moo or move | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> n as in nose | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> p as in powder | |||
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> r as in rock | |||
15:46 * Hamra asks the class to calm down, and keep the teacher focused | |||
15:47 * Hamra ducks to avoid the flying chalk | |||
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> s as in soldier, t as in time, v as in voice... and X! | |||
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> x is a hard letter | |||
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> it represents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative | |||
15:47 < llrcombs> x as in loch | |||
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> yep | |||
15:47 -!- cntrational [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban | |||
15:47 < llrcombs> but not lock | |||
15:47 < cntrational> o: | |||
15:48 < cntrational> o'ai la'oi llrcombs | |||
15:48 -!- Irssi: #xkcd-lojban: Total of 10 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal] | |||
15:48 < cntrational> llrcombs: do mo | |||
15:48 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially | |||
15:49 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K | |||
15:49 * llrcombs is confused by cntrational's lojban | |||
15:49 < cntrational> a'oi la'oi XMPPwocky | |||
15:49 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: pronounce "o'ai" | |||
15:49 < cntrational> llrcombs: "o'ai" and "a'oi" are slang joke cmavo from #lojban @ Freenode :r | |||
15:49 * XMPPwocky really ought to set +i during lessons | |||
15:50 * cntrational is busy making Reverse Lojban, yay | |||
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially | |||
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K | |||
15:50 < llrcombs> oh-ahee? | |||
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Ohai | |||
15:50 < cntrational> ...:r | |||
15:50 < cntrational> o hai | |||
15:50 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: ohai and ahoy | |||
15:50 < cntrational> ahoy | |||
15:50 < llrcombs> oh | |||
15:50 < rawrmage> mi jinvi lo du'u do pilno traji doi la cntrational | |||
15:50 < Hamra> oh-hi | |||
15:50 < AlcariTheMad> XMPPwocky: please, continue | |||
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> alright | |||
15:50 < cntrational> ko rinsa la cevni doi la'oi AlcariTheMad | |||
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue and expelling the air | |||
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you force air past it | |||
15:51 < cntrational> teaching articulation, huh | |||
15:51 < cntrational> compare the "s" and "t" sounds | |||
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> there's audio of how that sounds on the wiki page | |||
15:51 < cntrational> which are pronounced with the tongue in the same position | |||
15:51 < cntrational> do the same thing with "k" | |||
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> yep | |||
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue | |||
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you just force air past it | |||
15:51 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: mi na'e tavla fo la lojbo | |||
15:52 < cntrational> so yeah, I'm making a joke relex of Lojban where the gismu were generated with the weights reversed <_> | |||
15:52 < rawrmage> la'a na go'i | |||
15:52 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: "greet god, AlcariTheMad" | |||
15:52 < rawrmage> .y. sa za'a | |||
15:52 < cntrational> which is a u'ivla translation of a Bavarian/Austrian greeting | |||
15:52 < rawrmage> na go'i .oi se'i | |||
15:52 < cntrational> *an | |||
15:52 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, after x: there's y, but it's a schwa | |||
15:52 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: please continue | |||
15:53 < cntrational> actually | |||
15:53 < cntrational> *a | |||
15:53 < cntrational> glottal stop and such | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> so, the last letter is z, as in zinc | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> there's also the bonus letter | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> ' | |||
15:53 < llrcombs> '? | |||
15:53 < AlcariTheMad> ' | |||
15:53 < Hamra> apostrophe | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> '1 | |||
15:53 < llrcombs> as in... | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> it's a short breathy H | |||
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> think "oh hello" | |||
15:53 < AlcariTheMad> only sows up between vowel pairs | |||
15:54 < AlcariTheMad> *shows | |||
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> oh hello could be o'elo | |||
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> thus, cntrational's o'ai is ohhai | |||
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> it's not a glottal stop, it's just a short H | |||
15:54 < cntrational> yes | |||
15:54 < llrcombs> a'oi | |||
15:54 < cntrational> oh yes, and | |||
15:55 < cntrational> {do mo} is "what's up with you?" | |||
15:55 <~XMPPwocky> or, more correctly, "what are you" | |||
15:55 < cntrational> what are you, or what are you doing | |||
15:55 < cntrational> but "what's up" is more idiomatic, imho | |||
15:55 <~XMPPwocky> actually, "what relationships involve you" | |||
15:56 < cntrational> ew, you guys have literalistic translations here too :r | |||
15:56 < Hamra> cntrational: i prefer them actually | |||
15:56 * cntrational is a dynamic translationist :u | |||
15:56 < AlcariTheMad> i occasionally enjoy them | |||
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> okay, quiz time! | |||
15:57 < cntrational> hmm | |||
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> what are the two parts of a bridi | |||
15:57 < cntrational> I wonder if we could get valsi and gerna here | |||
15:57 < cntrational> I'll ask donri later | |||
15:57 < Hamra> sumti and selbri? | |||
15:57 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: if they're open source i could probably run them | |||
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: dingdingding | |||
15:58 < cntrational> oh, okay | |||
15:58 < llrcombs> the relationship type and the objects being related? | |||
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> yep | |||
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> relationship type is "selbri", objects being related are the "sumti" | |||
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> every selbri has a fixed place structure | |||
15:58 < cntrational> well, you can use vlasisku for a dictionary, for now, then | |||
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> gismu, root words, can be used directly as selbri | |||
15:59 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i've got pdfs that are nicely formatted for use as gismu and cmavo dictionaries | |||
15:59 <~XMPPwocky> and, the rest is just pronunciation | |||
15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: however, vlasisku is a frontend to the official Lojban dictionary | |||
15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: and it contains most fu'ivla/lujvo/other words | |||
16:00 < cntrational> i.e. like proposed and joke gismu | |||
16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i know, i'm in #lojban right now | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> and we're clear in 5 | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> 4 | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> 3 | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> 2 | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> 1 | |||
16:00 < llrcombs> CLEAR | |||
16:00 <~XMPPwocky> woo! | |||
16:00 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, any questions/clarification? | |||
16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: and i have been for the past 18 days | |||
16:00 < cntrational> donri says he'll add the bots here himself <.< | |||
16:00 < Hamra> XMPPwocky: next time... mute the non-students :P | |||
16:00 < rawrmage> cntrational: :o | |||
16:01 < llrcombs> yes, please do | |||
16:01 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: Yep, definitely | |||
16:01 <~XMPPwocky> i'll also probably set #i after the first few minutes | |||
16:01 * llrcombs glares around the room | |||
16:01 < cntrational> mostly because the code sucks | |||
16:01 < cntrational> ooh, I have a question, XMPPwocky | |||
16:01 < cntrational> xu do badna | |||
16:01 < rawrmage> .u'i | |||
16:02 < cntrational> I'll take that as a go'i | |||
16:02 <~XMPPwocky> ju'ocui na go'i | |||
16:02 <~XMPPwocky> *cu'i | |||
16:02 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: next lesson date/time? | |||
16:03 < cntrational> llrcombs: ca la raknarok | |||
16:03 < cntrational> *ragnarok | |||
16:03 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: this time/date next week | |||
16:03 < llrcombs> cool | |||
16:03 < cntrational> I could get some people from Freenode over here to teach stuff <.< | |||
16:04 < cntrational> ("ca" means "during", btw) | |||
16:04 <~XMPPwocky> cntrational: that'd be appreciated | |||
16:04 <~XMPPwocky> right now i'm basically going through the reference grammar | |||
</pre> |
Latest revision as of 17:57, 16 February 2015
Lesson 1 logs
15:00 < llrcombs> 3 15:00 < llrcombs> 2 15:00 < llrcombs> 1 15:00 < llrcombs> (points at XMPPwocky) 15:01 <~XMPPwocky> *blows one of those honker-boner things* 15:01 * Hamra throws a chalk at llrcombs 15:01 * llrcombs sits down in his comfy drafting chair 15:01 < AlcariTheMad> how long is this lesson going to last? 15:01 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: an hour or so, including questions 15:02 < AlcariTheMad> k 15:02 < llrcombs> that or until either the teacher or the entire class goes AFK 15:02 < llrcombs> so I 15:02 < llrcombs> 'd say it should be the hour 15:02 < llrcombs> 'cause I'm interested and XMPPwocky isn't incompetent 15:02 <~XMPPwocky> alright, Lojban! 15:02 < llrcombs> yes! 15:02 <~XMPPwocky> i'm going to start with shameless plagarism from the Lojban "specification" (reference grammar): 15:03 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban (pronounced “LOZH-bahn”) is a constructed language. Previous versions of the language were called “Loglan” by Dr. James Cooke Brown, who founded the Loglan Project and started the development of the language in 1955. The goals for the language were first described in the open literature in the article “Loglan”, published in Scientific American, June, 1960. Made well-known by that article and by occasional references in science fiction (most notably in Robert Heinlein’s novel The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress) and computer publications, Loglan and Lojban have been built over four decades by dozens of workers and hundreds of supporters, led since 1987 by The Logical Language Group (who are the publishers of this book). 15:03 <~XMPPwocky> it's based on predicate logic, which programmers are familiar with (although they may not know it) 15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the grammar is unambiguous (this does not mean what you may think it means! It's perfectly legal to be ambiguous) 15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the meaning is ambiguous, but the relationships between words are not 15:04 * llrcombs takes notes by turning on logging 15:05 <~XMPPwocky> there are 1300 root words, gismu, and a few hundred more structure words, cmavo 15:05 <~XMPPwocky> the language provides for combining those to mean anything 15:06 <~XMPPwocky> via a structure called a tanru, based on metaphor; similar to natural languages, you don't need a word for "blue house", you use words for blue and words for house 15:06 <~XMPPwocky> and, it has phonetic spelling 15:07 <~XMPPwocky> no silent letters 15:07 <~XMPPwocky> understood? 15:07 < llrcombs> yes 15:07 < taoistextremist> Yes. 15:07 < AlcariTheMad> yes 15:07 * llrcombs dislikes silent letters 15:07 <~XMPPwocky> great 15:08 <~XMPPwocky> (hold on, google docs is being slow) 15:09 <~XMPPwocky> alright 15:09 <~XMPPwocky> who here is a programmer? 15:09 < llrcombs> I am! 15:10 <~XMPPwocky> okay, this next part is pretty trivial then 15:10 < AlcariTheMad> me too 15:10 < Hamra> me too 15:10 <~XMPPwocky> again cribbing from the reference grammar: consider the following 3 sentence 15:11 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam. John is the father of Sam. John is taller than Sam. 15:11 <~XMPPwocky> ... wow, that's actually pretty disturbing 15:11 <~XMPPwocky> but anyways 15:11 <~XMPPwocky> those are all relationships between John and Sam 15:12 <~XMPPwocky> you could rewrite them in "subject-verb-object form" 15:12 < AlcariTheMad> (they kept those sentences in the print version) 15:12 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam, John is-the-father-of Sam, and John is-taller-than Sam. 15:12 <~XMPPwocky> in English, though 15:13 <~XMPPwocky> even though they're all relationships, you use a verb in one, an verb and a noun ("is" and "the father") in another, and a verb and an adjective in the third 15:13 <~XMPPwocky> like most things in English, this is confusing 15:14 < llrcombs> John.hit(Sam) 15:14 < llrcombs> John.isFatherOf(sam) 15:14 <~XMPPwocky> Predicate logic, basically, is describing things with relationships 15:14 < Hamra> more like: hit(john, sam) 15:14 <~XMPPwocky> you have the type of relationship, and the things being related 15:15 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: what Hamra said; it's not object oriented 15:15 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: ^ 15:15 <~XMPPwocky> so, if John hits Sam 15:15 <~XMPPwocky> you might say, (thanks Hamra), hit(john, sam) 15:16 <~XMPPwocky> "hit" is the type of relation 15:16 < llrcombs> isFather(john, sam) 15:16 <~XMPPwocky> john and sam are the things being related 15:16 <~XMPPwocky> yep, exactly 15:16 < llrcombs> and that's the word order in lojban? 15:16 <~XMPPwocky> no 15:16 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban calls the type of relation the "selbri" 15:17 <~XMPPwocky> and that being related is/are the "sumti" 15:17 <~XMPPwocky> the combination of those is the "bridi"; the most common form of a sentence 15:17 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban is quite flexible with the positioning of the sumti 15:18 <~XMPPwocky> you can say, john sam hit 15:18 <~XMPPwocky> or john hit sam 15:18 <~XMPPwocky> 99% of the time, it's john hit sam 15:18 < llrcombs> can you say hit john sam? 15:18 <~XMPPwocky> no, I'll explain why in a sec 15:18 < AlcariTheMad> like keyword arguments in some programming languages 15:19 < AlcariTheMad> hit(hitter=john, hittee=sam) 15:19 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly 15:19 <~XMPPwocky> so, a given selbri has a fixed "place structure" 15:19 <~XMPPwocky> think of it as a function signature 15:20 <~XMPPwocky> I'll use "john is the father of sam" as an example 15:20 <~XMPPwocky> remember when I was talking about gismu, root words? 15:20 <~XMPPwocky> they can be used directly as selbri 15:21 <~XMPPwocky> thus they have a fixed place structure 15:21 <~XMPPwocky> the structure of patfu is: x1 is a father of x2 15:22 <~XMPPwocky> like def patfu(father, fathered_thing) 15:22 < AlcariTheMad> s/fathered_thing/child/ 15:22 <~XMPPwocky> yep 15:22 <~XMPPwocky> if I wanted to say "John is the father of Sam" 15:23 <~XMPPwocky> I would use the following very simple bridi 15:23 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban 15:23 <~XMPPwocky> .i la .djan. patfu la .sam. 15:23 <~XMPPwocky> the .i starts a sentence 15:23 < llrcombs> ack punctuation 15:23 <~XMPPwocky> it's pronounced 15:24 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Periods represent a pause 15:24 <~XMPPwocky> keeps starting vowels or names in their place 15:24 < Hamra> ee la djan patfoo la sam? 15:25 < Hamra> pronounciation 15:25 <~XMPPwocky> djan is pronounced like English "John" 15:25 <~XMPPwocky> alright, pronunciation interlude (woo!) 15:25 < llrcombs> "an" = "ohn" 15:25 <~XMPPwocky> lojban has six vowels 15:25 < llrcombs> "dj" = "j" 15:25 < llrcombs> aeiouy, right? 15:25 <~XMPPwocky> each of those make a specific, predetermined sound 15:26 < AlcariTheMad> ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, uh 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, but "y" is off 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father 15:26 < llrcombs> define off 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: sounds different 15:26 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: the last a in america 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father 15:26 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban [Quitte] 15:26 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: the shwa, right? 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> e as in get 15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yep 15:27 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban 15:27 <~XMPPwocky> i as in green or machine 15:27 <~XMPPwocky> o as in joke or note 15:27 <~XMPPwocky> u as in cool 15:27 <~XMPPwocky> and y is the schwa 15:27 <~XMPPwocky> uh 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> then, consonants 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottl 15:28 < llrcombs> so a and y are "ah" and "uh"? 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, exactly 15:28 < llrcombs> is there an "AY"? 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> yes, that's a dipthong 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> I'll get to those after consonants 15:28 < llrcombs> OK 15:28 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban [] 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottle, c as in... 15:28 <~XMPPwocky> not cat! 15:28 < llrcombs> ch? 15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yes 15:29 < llrcombs> chocolate? 15:29 < AlcariTheMad> sh 15:29 <~XMPPwocky> C goes "ch" 15:29 < Hamra> ch or sh? 15:29 < llrcombs> ch 15:29 < AlcariTheMad> no, tc goes 'ch' 15:29 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: then what 15:29 < llrcombs> 's c? 15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yeah, ch 15:29 <~XMPPwocky> *sh 15:30 < llrcombs> damn you, return key!!! 15:30 < llrcombs> so as in shake? 15:30 < llrcombs> and tc is chocolate? 15:30 <~XMPPwocky> shake, or ship 15:30 < Hamra> yeah 15:30 <~XMPPwocky> yep 15:30 < Hamra> tcokolet 15:30 <~XMPPwocky> now, d as in dance, F as in fall, G as in goose, J as in... 15:30 < llrcombs> tcakolate or tcokolet? 15:31 <~XMPPwocky> not John! 15:31 <~XMPPwocky> tcakolate is 15:31 <~XMPPwocky> ch-ahko-late 15:31 <~XMPPwocky> you'd leave off the final E 15:32 < llrcombs> oh yeah, no silent letters 15:32 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: there's also a quote word that indicates english pronounciation 15:32 < llrcombs> J as in... 15:32 <~XMPPwocky> J as in measure 15:32 <~XMPPwocky> or bonjour 15:32 <~XMPPwocky> the J of John is "dj" 15:32 < llrcombs> I thought bonjour had the same J as john 15:33 < Hamra> a J without the leading "d" 15:33 <~XMPPwocky> it's a "sh" 15:33 < llrcombs> (as far as sound goes) 15:33 <~XMPPwocky> but vibrate your vocal cords 15:33 < llrcombs> zhuh? 15:34 < llrcombs> (that was my attempt at reproducing what I think that might sound like in text) 15:34 <~XMPPwocky> as in french jean-luc 15:34 < llrcombs> or jaques 15:34 < Hamra> llrcombs: more people pronounce it djon, djar, djug, etc.. in lojba, a "j" is just a j, no leading "d" 15:34 < llrcombs> zhack 15:35 <~XMPPwocky> yes 15:35 <~XMPPwocky> but not "dzack" 15:35 <~XMPPwocky> get it? 15:37 -!- rawrmage [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban 15:37 < rawrmage> omg 15:37 < rawrmage> coi ro do 15:37 < Hamra> coi 15:38 < AlcariTheMad> coi 15:38 <~XMPPwocky> coi 15:39 < rawrmage> .ui cai mi na pu jinvi lo du'u ti se irci binxo lo tolcando 15:39 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: so, you see the difference between j and dj? 15:39 < llrcombs> yes 15:39 < llrcombs> how do you pronounce starting a sentence with a pause? 15:39 <~XMPPwocky> you don't :P 15:40 < llrcombs> so what's the point of the leading .? 15:40 <~XMPPwocky> just a reminder 15:40 <~XMPPwocky> actually 15:40 <~XMPPwocky> all pauses are just reminders 15:40 <~XMPPwocky> they're mandated by the rules of the language 15:40 < rawrmage> .ije .y. caku xu ti se irci ponse lo valsi irci minji 15:40 < AlcariTheMad> every word in lojban ends in a vowel, the periods go at the beginning of words that start with vowels to stop them from running together when spoken 15:41 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly 15:42 < Hamra> french speakers might be more familiar with this 15:42 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: no bots yet 15:42 < rawrmage> je'e 15:42 < rawrmage> xu do platu lo nu finti 15:42 < AlcariTheMad> (technically, every gismu, cmavo, and lujvo ends in a vowel; names generally don't, to distinguish them) 15:43 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: names /always/ don't 15:43 < rawrmage> i'm pretty sure with dotside they can, though 15:43 * Hamra is still at names, cmene, in his lojban lessons 15:43 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: hmm, I didn't see anything about that 15:43 <~XMPPwocky> oh, yeah, we should probably get back on tract 15:44 < llrcombs> was that "can I put my IRC bot in this channel?"? 15:44 < rawrmage> let me ask 15:44 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: is it true that you are planning to make unspecified thing (from context, a bot) 15:44 < rawrmage> no, apparently not I must have misremembered 15:45 <~XMPPwocky> okay, so, letters after J 15:45 < llrcombs> k! 15:45 < llrcombs> k goes k 15:45 <~XMPPwocky> and c as in cat 15:45 < Hamra> there's "h"... but it doesnt exist 15:45 < Hamra> c as in sh 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> yes. my kat cat in its litterbox 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> l as in "late" or "lick" 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> m as in moo or move 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> n as in nose 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> p as in powder 15:46 <~XMPPwocky> r as in rock 15:46 * Hamra asks the class to calm down, and keep the teacher focused 15:47 * Hamra ducks to avoid the flying chalk 15:47 <~XMPPwocky> s as in soldier, t as in time, v as in voice... and X! 15:47 <~XMPPwocky> x is a hard letter 15:47 <~XMPPwocky> it represents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative 15:47 < llrcombs> x as in loch 15:47 <~XMPPwocky> yep 15:47 -!- cntrational [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban 15:47 < llrcombs> but not lock 15:47 < cntrational> o: 15:48 < cntrational> o'ai la'oi llrcombs 15:48 -!- Irssi: #xkcd-lojban: Total of 10 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal] 15:48 < cntrational> llrcombs: do mo 15:48 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially 15:49 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K 15:49 * llrcombs is confused by cntrational's lojban 15:49 < cntrational> a'oi la'oi XMPPwocky 15:49 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: pronounce "o'ai" 15:49 < cntrational> llrcombs: "o'ai" and "a'oi" are slang joke cmavo from #lojban @ Freenode :r 15:49 * XMPPwocky really ought to set +i during lessons 15:50 * cntrational is busy making Reverse Lojban, yay 15:50 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially 15:50 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K 15:50 < llrcombs> oh-ahee? 15:50 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Ohai 15:50 < cntrational> ...:r 15:50 < cntrational> o hai 15:50 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: ohai and ahoy 15:50 < cntrational> ahoy 15:50 < llrcombs> oh 15:50 < rawrmage> mi jinvi lo du'u do pilno traji doi la cntrational 15:50 < Hamra> oh-hi 15:50 < AlcariTheMad> XMPPwocky: please, continue 15:50 <~XMPPwocky> alright 15:50 < cntrational> ko rinsa la cevni doi la'oi AlcariTheMad 15:50 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue and expelling the air 15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you force air past it 15:51 < cntrational> teaching articulation, huh 15:51 < cntrational> compare the "s" and "t" sounds 15:51 <~XMPPwocky> there's audio of how that sounds on the wiki page 15:51 < cntrational> which are pronounced with the tongue in the same position 15:51 < cntrational> do the same thing with "k" 15:51 <~XMPPwocky> yep 15:51 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue 15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you just force air past it 15:51 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: mi na'e tavla fo la lojbo 15:52 < cntrational> so yeah, I'm making a joke relex of Lojban where the gismu were generated with the weights reversed <_> 15:52 < rawrmage> la'a na go'i 15:52 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: "greet god, AlcariTheMad" 15:52 < rawrmage> .y. sa za'a 15:52 < cntrational> which is a u'ivla translation of a Bavarian/Austrian greeting 15:52 < rawrmage> na go'i .oi se'i 15:52 < cntrational> *an 15:52 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, after x: there's y, but it's a schwa 15:52 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: please continue 15:53 < cntrational> actually 15:53 < cntrational> *a 15:53 < cntrational> glottal stop and such 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> so, the last letter is z, as in zinc 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> there's also the bonus letter 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> ' 15:53 < llrcombs> '? 15:53 < AlcariTheMad> ' 15:53 < Hamra> apostrophe 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> '1 15:53 < llrcombs> as in... 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> it's a short breathy H 15:53 <~XMPPwocky> think "oh hello" 15:53 < AlcariTheMad> only sows up between vowel pairs 15:54 < AlcariTheMad> *shows 15:54 <~XMPPwocky> oh hello could be o'elo 15:54 <~XMPPwocky> thus, cntrational's o'ai is ohhai 15:54 <~XMPPwocky> it's not a glottal stop, it's just a short H 15:54 < cntrational> yes 15:54 < llrcombs> a'oi 15:54 < cntrational> oh yes, and 15:55 < cntrational> {do mo} is "what's up with you?" 15:55 <~XMPPwocky> or, more correctly, "what are you" 15:55 < cntrational> what are you, or what are you doing 15:55 < cntrational> but "what's up" is more idiomatic, imho 15:55 <~XMPPwocky> actually, "what relationships involve you" 15:56 < cntrational> ew, you guys have literalistic translations here too :r 15:56 < Hamra> cntrational: i prefer them actually 15:56 * cntrational is a dynamic translationist :u 15:56 < AlcariTheMad> i occasionally enjoy them 15:57 <~XMPPwocky> okay, quiz time! 15:57 < cntrational> hmm 15:57 <~XMPPwocky> what are the two parts of a bridi 15:57 < cntrational> I wonder if we could get valsi and gerna here 15:57 < cntrational> I'll ask donri later 15:57 < Hamra> sumti and selbri? 15:57 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: if they're open source i could probably run them 15:57 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: dingdingding 15:58 < cntrational> oh, okay 15:58 < llrcombs> the relationship type and the objects being related? 15:58 <~XMPPwocky> yep 15:58 <~XMPPwocky> relationship type is "selbri", objects being related are the "sumti" 15:58 <~XMPPwocky> every selbri has a fixed place structure 15:58 < cntrational> well, you can use vlasisku for a dictionary, for now, then 15:58 <~XMPPwocky> gismu, root words, can be used directly as selbri 15:59 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i've got pdfs that are nicely formatted for use as gismu and cmavo dictionaries 15:59 <~XMPPwocky> and, the rest is just pronunciation 15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: however, vlasisku is a frontend to the official Lojban dictionary 15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: and it contains most fu'ivla/lujvo/other words 16:00 < cntrational> i.e. like proposed and joke gismu 16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i know, i'm in #lojban right now 16:00 < llrcombs> and we're clear in 5 16:00 < llrcombs> 4 16:00 < llrcombs> 3 16:00 < llrcombs> 2 16:00 < llrcombs> 1 16:00 < llrcombs> CLEAR 16:00 <~XMPPwocky> woo! 16:00 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, any questions/clarification? 16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: and i have been for the past 18 days 16:00 < cntrational> donri says he'll add the bots here himself <.< 16:00 < Hamra> XMPPwocky: next time... mute the non-students :P 16:00 < rawrmage> cntrational: :o 16:01 < llrcombs> yes, please do 16:01 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: Yep, definitely 16:01 <~XMPPwocky> i'll also probably set #i after the first few minutes 16:01 * llrcombs glares around the room 16:01 < cntrational> mostly because the code sucks 16:01 < cntrational> ooh, I have a question, XMPPwocky 16:01 < cntrational> xu do badna 16:01 < rawrmage> .u'i 16:02 < cntrational> I'll take that as a go'i 16:02 <~XMPPwocky> ju'ocui na go'i 16:02 <~XMPPwocky> *cu'i 16:02 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: next lesson date/time? 16:03 < cntrational> llrcombs: ca la raknarok 16:03 < cntrational> *ragnarok 16:03 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: this time/date next week 16:03 < llrcombs> cool 16:03 < cntrational> I could get some people from Freenode over here to teach stuff <.< 16:04 < cntrational> ("ca" means "during", btw) 16:04 <~XMPPwocky> cntrational: that'd be appreciated 16:04 <~XMPPwocky> right now i'm basically going through the reference grammar