xkcd-lojban resources

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Pronunciation guide

Lesson 1 logs

15:00 < llrcombs> 3
15:00 < llrcombs> 2
15:00 < llrcombs> 1
15:00 < llrcombs> (points at XMPPwocky)
15:01 <~XMPPwocky> *blows one of those honker-boner things*
15:01  * Hamra throws a chalk at llrcombs 
15:01  * llrcombs sits down in his comfy drafting chair
15:01 < AlcariTheMad> how long is this lesson going to last?
15:01 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: an hour or so, including questions
15:02 < AlcariTheMad> k
15:02 < llrcombs> that or until either the teacher or the entire class goes AFK
15:02 < llrcombs> so I
15:02 < llrcombs> 'd say it should be the hour
15:02 < llrcombs> 'cause I'm interested and XMPPwocky isn't incompetent
15:02 <~XMPPwocky> alright, Lojban!
15:02 < llrcombs> yes!
15:02 <~XMPPwocky> i'm going to start with shameless plagarism from the Lojban "specification" (reference grammar):
15:03 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban (pronounced “LOZH-bahn”) is a constructed language. Previous versions of the language were called “Loglan” by Dr. James Cooke Brown, who founded the Loglan Project and started the development of the language in 1955. The goals for the language were first described in the open literature in the article “Loglan”, published in Scientific American, June, 1960. Made well-known by that article and by occasional references in science fiction (most notably in Robert Heinlein’s novel The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress) and computer publications, Loglan and Lojban have been built over four decades by dozens of workers and hundreds of supporters, led since 1987 by The Logical Language Group (who are the publishers of this book).
15:03 <~XMPPwocky> it's based on predicate logic, which programmers are familiar with (although they may not know it)
15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the grammar is unambiguous (this does not mean what you may think it means! It's perfectly legal to be ambiguous)
15:04 <~XMPPwocky> the meaning is ambiguous, but the relationships between words are not
15:04  * llrcombs takes notes by turning on logging
15:05 <~XMPPwocky> there are 1300 root words, gismu, and a few hundred more structure words, cmavo
15:05 <~XMPPwocky> the language provides for combining those to mean anything
15:06 <~XMPPwocky> via a structure called a tanru, based on metaphor; similar to natural languages, you don't need a word for "blue house", you use words for blue and words for house
15:06 <~XMPPwocky> and, it has phonetic spelling
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> no silent letters
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> understood?
15:07 < llrcombs> yes
15:07 < taoistextremist> Yes.
15:07 < AlcariTheMad> yes
15:07  * llrcombs dislikes silent letters
15:07 <~XMPPwocky> great
15:08 <~XMPPwocky> (hold on, google docs is being slow)
15:09 <~XMPPwocky> alright
15:09 <~XMPPwocky> who here is a programmer?
15:09 < llrcombs> I am!
15:10 <~XMPPwocky> okay, this next part is pretty trivial then
15:10 < AlcariTheMad> me too
15:10 < Hamra> me too
15:10 <~XMPPwocky> again cribbing from the reference grammar: consider the following 3 sentence
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam. John is the father of Sam. John is taller than Sam.
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> ... wow, that's actually pretty disturbing
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> but anyways
15:11 <~XMPPwocky> those are all relationships between John and Sam
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> you could rewrite them in "subject-verb-object form"
15:12 < AlcariTheMad> (they kept those sentences in the print version)
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> John hits Sam, John is-the-father-of Sam, and John is-taller-than Sam.
15:12 <~XMPPwocky> in English, though
15:13 <~XMPPwocky> even though they're all relationships, you use a verb in one, an verb and a noun ("is" and "the father") in another, and a verb and an adjective in the third
15:13 <~XMPPwocky> like most things in English, this is confusing
15:14 < llrcombs> John.hit(Sam)
15:14 < llrcombs> John.isFatherOf(sam)
15:14 <~XMPPwocky> Predicate logic, basically, is describing things with relationships
15:14 < Hamra> more like: hit(john, sam)
15:14 <~XMPPwocky> you have the type of relationship, and the things being related
15:15 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: what Hamra said; it's not object oriented
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: ^
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> so, if John hits Sam
15:15 <~XMPPwocky> you might say, (thanks Hamra), hit(john, sam)
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> "hit" is the type of relation
15:16 < llrcombs> isFather(john, sam)
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> john and sam are the things being related
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> yep, exactly
15:16 < llrcombs> and that's the word order in lojban?
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> no
15:16 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban calls the type of relation the "selbri"
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> and that being related is/are the "sumti"
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> the combination of those is the "bridi"; the most common form of a sentence
15:17 <~XMPPwocky> Lojban is quite flexible with the positioning of the sumti
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> you can say, john sam hit
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> or john hit sam
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> 99% of the time, it's john hit sam
15:18 < llrcombs> can you say hit john sam?
15:18 <~XMPPwocky> no, I'll explain why in a sec
15:18 < AlcariTheMad> like keyword arguments in some programming languages
15:19 < AlcariTheMad> hit(hitter=john, hittee=sam)
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> so, a given selbri has a fixed "place structure"
15:19 <~XMPPwocky> think of it as a function signature
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> I'll use "john is the father of sam" as an example
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> remember when I was talking about gismu, root words?
15:20 <~XMPPwocky> they can be used directly as selbri
15:21 <~XMPPwocky> thus they have a fixed place structure
15:21 <~XMPPwocky> the structure of patfu is: x1 is a father of x2
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> like def patfu(father, fathered_thing)
15:22 < AlcariTheMad> s/fathered_thing/child/
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> yep
15:22 <~XMPPwocky> if I wanted to say "John is the father of Sam"
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> I would use the following very simple bridi
15:23 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> .i la .djan. patfu la .sam.
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> the .i starts a sentence
15:23 < llrcombs> ack punctuation
15:23 <~XMPPwocky> it's pronounced
15:24 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Periods represent a pause
15:24 <~XMPPwocky> keeps starting vowels or names in their place
15:24 < Hamra> ee la djan patfoo la sam?
15:25 < Hamra> pronounciation
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> djan is pronounced like English "John"
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> alright, pronunciation interlude (woo!)
15:25 < llrcombs> "an" = "ohn"
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> lojban has six vowels
15:25 < llrcombs> "dj" = "j"
15:25 < llrcombs> aeiouy, right?
15:25 <~XMPPwocky> each of those make a specific, predetermined sound
15:26 < AlcariTheMad> ah, eh, ee, oh, oo, uh
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, but "y" is off
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father
15:26 < llrcombs> define off
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: sounds different
15:26 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: the last a in america
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> a as in father
15:26 -!- zalg [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban [Quitte]
15:26 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: the shwa, right?
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> e as in get
15:26 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yep
15:27 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> i as in green or machine
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> o as in joke or note
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> u as in cool
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> and y is the schwa
15:27 <~XMPPwocky> uh
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> then, consonants
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottl
15:28 < llrcombs> so a and y are "ah" and "uh"?
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: yes, exactly
15:28 < llrcombs> is there an "AY"?
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> yes, that's a dipthong
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> I'll get to those after consonants
15:28 < llrcombs> OK
15:28 -!- TheCat [[email protected]] has left #xkcd-lojban []
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> b as in bottle, c as in...
15:28 <~XMPPwocky> not cat!
15:28 < llrcombs> ch?
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yes
15:29 < llrcombs> chocolate?
15:29 < AlcariTheMad> sh
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> C goes "ch"
15:29 < Hamra> ch or sh?
15:29 < llrcombs> ch
15:29 < AlcariTheMad> no, tc goes 'ch'
15:29 < llrcombs> AlcariTheMad: then what
15:29 < llrcombs> 's c?
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> yeah, ch
15:29 <~XMPPwocky> *sh
15:30 < llrcombs> damn you, return key!!!
15:30 < llrcombs> so as in shake?
15:30 < llrcombs> and tc is chocolate?
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> shake, or ship
15:30 < Hamra> yeah
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> yep
15:30 < Hamra> tcokolet
15:30 <~XMPPwocky> now, d as in dance, F as in fall, G as in goose, J as in...
15:30 < llrcombs> tcakolate or tcokolet?
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> not John!
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> tcakolate is 
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> ch-ahko-late
15:31 <~XMPPwocky> you'd leave off the final E
15:32 < llrcombs> oh yeah, no silent letters
15:32 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: there's also a quote word that indicates english pronounciation
15:32 < llrcombs> J as in...
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> J as in measure
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> or bonjour
15:32 <~XMPPwocky> the J of John is "dj"
15:32 < llrcombs> I thought bonjour had the same J as john
15:33 < Hamra> a J without the leading "d"
15:33 <~XMPPwocky> it's a "sh"
15:33 < llrcombs> (as far as sound goes)
15:33 <~XMPPwocky> but vibrate your vocal cords
15:33 < llrcombs> zhuh?
15:34 < llrcombs> (that was my attempt at reproducing what I think that might sound like in text)
15:34 <~XMPPwocky> as in french jean-luc
15:34 < llrcombs> or jaques
15:34 < Hamra> llrcombs: more people pronounce it djon, djar, djug, etc.. in lojba, a "j" is just a j, no leading "d"
15:34 < llrcombs> zhack
15:35 <~XMPPwocky> yes
15:35 <~XMPPwocky> but not "dzack"
15:35 <~XMPPwocky>  get it?
15:37 -!- rawrmage [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban
15:37 < rawrmage> omg
15:37 < rawrmage> coi ro do
15:37 < Hamra> coi 
15:38 < AlcariTheMad> coi
15:38 <~XMPPwocky> coi
15:39 < rawrmage> .ui cai mi na pu jinvi lo du'u ti se irci binxo lo tolcando
15:39 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: so, you see the difference between j and dj?
15:39 < llrcombs> yes
15:39 < llrcombs> how do you pronounce starting a sentence with a pause?
15:39 <~XMPPwocky> you don't :P
15:40 < llrcombs> so what's the point of the leading .?
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> just a reminder
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> actually
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> all pauses are just reminders
15:40 <~XMPPwocky> they're mandated by the rules of the language
15:40 < rawrmage> .ije .y. caku xu ti se irci ponse lo valsi irci minji
15:40 < AlcariTheMad> every word in lojban ends in a vowel, the periods go at the beginning of words that start with vowels to stop them from running together when spoken
15:41 <~XMPPwocky> yes, exactly
15:42 < Hamra> french speakers might be more familiar with this
15:42 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: no bots yet
15:42 < rawrmage> je'e
15:42 < rawrmage> xu do platu lo nu finti
15:42 < AlcariTheMad> (technically, every gismu, cmavo, and lujvo ends in a vowel; names generally don't, to distinguish them)
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> AlcariTheMad: names /always/ don't
15:43 < rawrmage> i'm pretty sure with dotside they can, though
15:43  * Hamra is still at names, cmene, in his lojban lessons
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> rawrmage: hmm, I didn't see anything about that
15:43 <~XMPPwocky> oh, yeah, we should probably get back on tract
15:44 < llrcombs> was that "can I put my IRC bot in this channel?"?
15:44 < rawrmage> let me ask
15:44 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: is it true that you are planning to make unspecified thing (from context, a bot)
15:44 < rawrmage> no, apparently not I must have misremembered
15:45 <~XMPPwocky> okay, so, letters after J
15:45 < llrcombs> k!
15:45 < llrcombs> k goes k
15:45 <~XMPPwocky> and c as in cat
15:45 < Hamra> there's "h"... but it doesnt exist
15:45 < Hamra> c as in sh
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> yes. my kat cat in its litterbox
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> l as in "late" or "lick"
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> m as in moo or move
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> n as in nose
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> p as in powder
15:46 <~XMPPwocky> r as in rock
15:46  * Hamra asks the class to calm down, and keep the teacher focused
15:47  * Hamra ducks to avoid the flying chalk
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> s as in soldier, t as in time, v as in voice... and X!
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> x is a hard letter
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> it represents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative
15:47 < llrcombs> x as in loch
15:47 <~XMPPwocky> yep
15:47 -!- cntrational [[email protected]] has joined #xkcd-lojban
15:47 < llrcombs> but not lock
15:47 < cntrational> o:
15:48 < cntrational> o'ai la'oi llrcombs 
15:48 -!- Irssi: #xkcd-lojban: Total of 10 nicks [2 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 8 normal]
15:48 < cntrational> llrcombs: do mo
15:48 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially
15:49 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K
15:49  * llrcombs is confused by cntrational's lojban
15:49 < cntrational> a'oi la'oi XMPPwocky
15:49 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: pronounce "o'ai"
15:49 < cntrational> llrcombs: "o'ai" and "a'oi" are slang joke cmavo from #lojban @ Freenode :r
15:49  * XMPPwocky really ought to set +i during lessons
15:50  * cntrational is busy making Reverse Lojban, yay
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> x is essentially
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> put your tongue in position for a K
15:50 < llrcombs> oh-ahee?
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: Ohai
15:50 < cntrational> ...:r
15:50 < cntrational> o hai
15:50 < AlcariTheMad> llrcombs: ohai and ahoy
15:50 < cntrational> ahoy
15:50 < llrcombs> oh
15:50 < rawrmage> mi jinvi lo du'u do pilno traji doi la cntrational 
15:50 < Hamra> oh-hi
15:50 < AlcariTheMad> XMPPwocky: please, continue
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> alright
15:50 < cntrational> ko rinsa la cevni doi la'oi AlcariTheMad 
15:50 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue and expelling the air
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you force air past it
15:51 < cntrational> teaching articulation, huh
15:51 < cntrational> compare the "s" and "t" sounds
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> there's audio of how that sounds on the wiki page
15:51 < cntrational> which are pronounced with the tongue in the same position
15:51 < cntrational> do the same thing with "k"
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> yep
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> so instead of moving your tongue
15:51 <~XMPPwocky> you just force air past it
15:51 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: mi na'e tavla fo la lojbo
15:52 < cntrational> so yeah, I'm making a joke relex of Lojban where the gismu were generated with the weights reversed <_>
15:52 < rawrmage> la'a na go'i 
15:52 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: "greet god, AlcariTheMad"
15:52 < rawrmage> .y. sa za'a
15:52 < cntrational> which is a u'ivla translation of a Bavarian/Austrian greeting
15:52 < rawrmage> na go'i .oi se'i
15:52 < cntrational> *an
15:52 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, after x: there's y, but it's a schwa
15:52 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: please continue
15:53 < cntrational> actually
15:53 < cntrational> *a
15:53 < cntrational> glottal stop and such
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> so, the last letter is z, as in zinc
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> there's also the bonus letter
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> '
15:53 < llrcombs> '?
15:53 < AlcariTheMad> '
15:53 < Hamra> apostrophe
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> '1
15:53 < llrcombs> as in...
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> it's a short breathy H
15:53 <~XMPPwocky> think "oh hello"
15:53 < AlcariTheMad> only sows up between vowel pairs
15:54 < AlcariTheMad> *shows
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> oh hello could be o'elo
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> thus, cntrational's o'ai is ohhai
15:54 <~XMPPwocky> it's not a glottal stop, it's just a short H
15:54 < cntrational> yes
15:54 < llrcombs> a'oi
15:54 < cntrational> oh yes, and
15:55 < cntrational> {do mo} is "what's up with you?"
15:55 <~XMPPwocky> or, more correctly, "what are you"
15:55 < cntrational> what are you, or what are you doing
15:55 < cntrational> but "what's up" is more idiomatic, imho
15:55 <~XMPPwocky> actually, "what relationships involve you"
15:56 < cntrational> ew, you guys have literalistic translations here too :r
15:56 < Hamra> cntrational: i prefer them actually
15:56  * cntrational is a dynamic translationist :u
15:56 < AlcariTheMad> i occasionally enjoy them
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> okay, quiz time!
15:57 < cntrational> hmm
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> what are the two parts of a bridi
15:57 < cntrational> I wonder if we could get valsi and gerna here
15:57 < cntrational> I'll ask donri later
15:57 < Hamra> sumti and selbri?
15:57 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: if they're open source i could probably run them
15:57 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: dingdingding
15:58 < cntrational> oh, okay
15:58 < llrcombs> the relationship type and the objects being related?
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> yep
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> relationship type is "selbri", objects being related are the "sumti"
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> every selbri has a fixed place structure
15:58 < cntrational> well, you can use vlasisku for a dictionary, for now, then
15:58 <~XMPPwocky> gismu, root words, can be used directly as selbri
15:59 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i've got pdfs that are nicely formatted for use as gismu and cmavo dictionaries
15:59 <~XMPPwocky> and, the rest is just pronunciation
15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: however, vlasisku is a frontend to the official Lojban dictionary
15:59 < cntrational> AlcariTheMad: and it contains most fu'ivla/lujvo/other words
16:00 < cntrational> i.e. like proposed and joke gismu
16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: i know, i'm in #lojban right now
16:00 < llrcombs> and we're clear in 5
16:00 < llrcombs> 4
16:00 < llrcombs> 3
16:00 < llrcombs> 2
16:00 < llrcombs> 1
16:00 < llrcombs> CLEAR
16:00 <~XMPPwocky> woo!
16:00 <~XMPPwocky> Alright, any questions/clarification?
16:00 < AlcariTheMad> cntrational: and i have been for the past 18 days
16:00 < cntrational> donri says he'll add the bots here himself <.<
16:00 < Hamra> XMPPwocky: next time... mute the non-students :P
16:00 < rawrmage> cntrational: :o
16:01 < llrcombs> yes, please do
16:01 <~XMPPwocky> Hamra: Yep, definitely
16:01 <~XMPPwocky> i'll also probably set #i after the first few minutes
16:01  * llrcombs glares around the room
16:01 < cntrational> mostly because the code sucks
16:01 < cntrational> ooh, I have a question, XMPPwocky 
16:01 < cntrational> xu do badna
16:01 < rawrmage> .u'i
16:02 < cntrational> I'll take that as a go'i
16:02 <~XMPPwocky> ju'ocui na go'i
16:02 <~XMPPwocky> *cu'i
16:02 < llrcombs> XMPPwocky: next lesson date/time?
16:03 < cntrational> llrcombs: ca la raknarok
16:03 < cntrational> *ragnarok
16:03 <~XMPPwocky> llrcombs: this time/date next week
16:03 < llrcombs> cool
16:03 < cntrational> I could get some people from Freenode over here to teach stuff <.<
16:04 < cntrational> ("ca" means "during", btw)
16:04 <~XMPPwocky> cntrational: that'd be appreciated
16:04 <~XMPPwocky> right now i'm basically going through the reference grammar