User:John Clifford: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 17:27, 26 May 2014

John Clifford, aka John Parks-Clifford, aka pc, aka la pycyn., is the former Vice-President of the LLG, used to be the chief logician of TLI, and is our professional expert on logic. He occasionally writes records to the list giving the final decision on hitherto unsettled points.

.i la'ogy. pc gy. cu lojbo cecmu tcaci cmene la'ogy. John Clifford gy.; noi pu se cmene zoigy. John Parks-Clifford .i bau la lojban la'ogy. pc gy. cu ji'a se cmene zo pycyn. noi lojbo dunli zoigy. pc gy.

IMAO, his records are more confusing than the original threads. --John Cowan
- I completely agree. But the reason he's so hard to understand is that he's not nearly as condescending as he should be; indeed he scores a zero on the condescendingness scale, IMO. If he didn't blithely assume that everybody had the wit to understand him, one would understand ten times more of what he says. -- And Rosta
His "records" also have the condescending tone of someone describing the antics of children. --Jay (I took out the other tidbit I had here, because I decided in retrospect, it was excessive. I'm sticking to the first part, though.)
- Gee, I'm sorry I missed the rest; this was fascinating. Sorry about the "like" chikdren" part, but, being 30 some years older than most of you and most of that time spent in Loglan/Lojban, you do seem that way to me sometimes -- especially when I see an argument going round for the dozenth time. By the bye, shouldn't someone put up some of those Records for comparison purposes? pc >|8}
  - If you're going to make this kind of personal (and arguably ad hominem) remark, please sign it. --- nitcion done.

Thoughts

Question for pc

How do termsets and naku interact? I intend to work it out myself, but I thought you might already know. mi'e jezrax
- Sorry, I haven't thought about that -- let me know what you come up with.

Biography

Taught at University of Missouri - St. Louis, 1967 - 2000: Logic (from Informal through Goedel Theory and Non-Standard), Philosophy of Religion (courses so called, also Medieval, Feminist Theology, Mysticism, Occult, and especially Asian)

MA in Linguistics (field work on an Indian reservation in India), PhD in Philosophy (tense in language and logic -- scrapped Indian logic when the Sanscritist who knew some logic left) both at UCLA. Machine Translation project at RAND Corp, 1960-2 (and yes, I wrote Fortan 1 programs then)

Tense and Tense Logic, Dialogic-- the new game of logic, The Putting of the Proof."Tense Logic and the Logic of Change," "Past and Perfect," "Literal Relevance," "Ends-Means Arguments"

TLI: Editor of The Loglanist (la loglentan) 1976-84, Board Member 1980-4, VP 1980-2, President (but JCB was Chairman of the Board) 1982-4

Cook, crocheter and braider, tec reader, student of religion (prepping for comps?)

John E. Clifford (Parks-Clifford — whence his sobriquets in Loglan and Lojban, pc and pycyn — for the duration of one wife) received a BA from Michigan State, then spent a year at Princeton before settling in at UCLA for a decade. In that time he acquired an MA in Linguistics and a PhD in Philosophy (dissertation on natural language tense and tense logic). He spent 33 years in the Philosophy Department of the University of Missouri – St. Louis, teaching Logic (from Critical Thinking through Goedel), Asian Philosophy, and Philosphy of Religion , and occasionally other things that needed teaching. He was an Esperantist from his second year at Exeter, though mainly lapsed. He first worked with Loglan in 1960 (after the Scientific American article) as a contribution to the machine translation program at RAND. When Loglan reemerged in 1975, he reupped, becoming the first editor of The Loglanist, a member of the board of The Loglan Institute and eventually Vice-President, then President. He joined the Logical Language Group in the mid-80s and has participated actively in the development of Lojban, mainly advocating more logic in keeping with his early exposure — under Carnap and the like — to the notion of a logically perfect language. He was involved with aUI while sabbaticating on Iowa and has recently taken up toki pona and a good old Logical Positivist examination of NSM. He is still looking for an empirically testable hypothesis that comes close to the informal proposals of Sapir and Whorf.

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+John Clifford, aka [[John Parks-Clifford|John Parks-Clifford]], aka [[pc|pc]], aka la [[pycyn|pycyn]]., is the former Vice-President of the [[LLG|LLG]], used to be the chief logician of [[TLI|TLI]], and is our professional expert on logic. He occasionally writes [[record|record]]s to the list giving the final decision on hitherto unsettled points.
-* [[jbocre: hardliners|hardliners]]
+'''.i la'ogy. '''pc''' gy. cu lojbo cecmu tcaci cmene la'ogy. [[User:John Clifford|John Clifford]] gy.; noi pu se cmene zoigy. [[John Parks-Clifford|John Parks-Clifford]] .i bau la lojban la'ogy. pc gy. cu ji'a se cmene zo [[pycyn|pycyn]]. noi lojbo dunli zoigy. pc gy.'''
-* [[jbocre: fundamentalism|fundamentalism]]
-* [[jbocre: naturalism|naturalism]]
+*IMAO, his records are more confusing than the original threads.  --[[John Cowan|John Cowan]]
-* [[jbocre: transcendentalism|transcendentalism]]
+**I completely agree. But the reason he's so hard to understand is that he's not nearly as condescending as he should be; indeed he scores a zero on the condescendingness scale, IMO. If he didn't blithely assume that everybody had the wit to understand him, one would understand ten times more of what he says. -- [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
+*His "records" also have the condescending tone of someone describing the antics of children. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]] (I took out the other tidbit I had here, because I decided in retrospect, it was excessive. I'm sticking to the first part, though.)
+**Gee, I'm sorry  I missed the rest; this was fascinating. Sorry about the "like" chikdren" part, but, being 30 some years older than most of you and most of that time spent in Loglan/Lojban, you do seem that way to me sometimes -- especially when I see an argument going round for the dozenth time. By the bye, shouldn't someone put up some of those Records for comparison purposes?  pc >|8}
+***''If you're going to make this kind of personal (and arguably ad hominem) remark, please sign it. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]'' done.
-* [[jbocre: On Grunge and conflict resolution|On Grunge and conflict resolution]]
+==Thoughts==
-* [[jbocre: Grice Salvator|Grice Salvator]]
+http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6533, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7477, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7513, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7940, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7945, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8000, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8077, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8156, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9485, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9502, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9516, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9523, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10696, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/10697
+==Question for pc==
+*How do termsets and ''naku'' interact? I intend to work it out myself, but I thought you might already know. ''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''
+**Sorry, I haven't thought about that -- let me know what you come up with.
+==Biography==
+Taught at University of Missouri - St. Louis, 1967 - 2000: Logic (from Informal through Goedel Theory and Non-Standard), Philosophy of Religion (courses so called, also Medieval, Feminist Theology, Mysticism, Occult, and especially Asian)
-* [[jbocre: On the baseline conformance imperative|On the baseline conformance imperative]]
+MA in Linguistics (field work on an Indian reservation in India), PhD in Philosophy (tense in language and logic -- scrapped Indian logic when the Sanscritist who knew some logic left) both at UCLA.  Machine Translation project at RAND Corp, 1960-2 (and yes, I wrote Fortan 1 programs then)
-* [[jbocre: SWism|SWism]] = whorfianism
-* [[jbocre: Vulcanism|Vulcanism]]
+''Tense and Tense Logic'', ''Dialogic-- the new game of logic'', ''The Putting of the Proof''."Tense Logic and the Logic of Change," "Past and Perfect," "Literal Relevance," "Ends-Means Arguments"
-* [[jbocre: Progressivism|Progressivism]] favours a baseline that changes for the better.
-* [[jbocre: Conservatism|Conservatism]] favours a baseline that doesn't change at all.
+TLI: Editor of ''The Loglanist (la loglentan)'' 1976-84, Board Member 1980-4, VP 1980-2, President (but JCB was Chairman of the Board) 1982-4
-** ''I think you mean a ''language'' that does or does not change. A baseline is by definition a snapshot of the language at one moment. The issue then is about freezing the language at a baseline, or not. --[[User:xod|xod]]''
-** I keep on hearing conflicting stories. If a baseline is not necessarily frozen, then presumably it can change. Anyway, I don't mean a ''language'' entire that does or does not change. I mean an explicitly and published ''grammar'' that does or does not change. --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
+Cook, crocheter and braider, tec reader, student of religion (prepping for comps?)
-----
-In brief:
+John E. Clifford (Parks-Clifford — whence his sobriquets in Loglan and Lojban, pc and pycyn — for the duration of one wife) received a BA from Michigan State, then spent a year at Princeton before settling in at UCLA for a decade. In that time he acquired an MA in Linguistics and a PhD in Philosophy (dissertation on natural language tense and tense logic). He spent 33 years in the Philosophy Department of the University of Missouri – St. Louis, teaching Logic (from Critical Thinking through Goedel), Asian Philosophy, and Philosphy of Religion , and occasionally other things that needed teaching. He was an Esperantist from his second year at Exeter, though mainly lapsed. He first worked with Loglan in 1960 (after the Scientific American article) as a contribution to the machine translation program at RAND. When Loglan reemerged in 1975, he reupped, becoming the first editor of The Loglanist, a member of the board of The Loglan Institute and eventually Vice-President, then President. He joined the Logical Language Group in the mid-80s and has participated actively in the development of Lojban, mainly advocating more logic in keeping with his early exposure — under Carnap and the like — to the notion of a logically perfect language. He was involved with aUI while sabbaticating on Iowa and has recently taken up toki pona and a good old Logical Positivist examination of NSM. He is still looking for an empirically testable hypothesis that comes close to the informal proposals of Sapir and Whorf.
-* [[jbocre: hardliners|hardlinerism]] preaches rigorous definition of semantics and usage that scrupulously adheres to those rigorous definitions.
-* [[jbocre: naturalism|naturalism]] preaches using and treating Lojban as a natural language: it is something to be explored through usage, and should grow organically rather than be formally defined in ways beyond what is set down in the baseline.
-* [[jbocre: fundamentalism|fundamentalism]] preaches that it is a sin to propose any elements of the language design that deviate from the baseline
-Naturalism and hardlinerism are incompatible, but all other possible combinations of these ideologies are attested in one Lojbanist or another.
---[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
-----
-Has anyone beside me noticed that Nick turns up as a Hardliner and a Naturalist? In discussion with And, [[User:xod  (xod|xod  (xod]]) realized that this faction classification system could bear one more fine tuning pass. Hence, I am creating at least one more position, [[jbocre: SWism|SWism]], to sort of replace some of [[jbocre: transcendentalism|transcendentalism]] and maybe [[jbocre: naturalism|naturalism]], but which I think is more conceptually coherent. --[[User:xod|xod]]
-* [[jbocre: SWism|SWism]]

User:John Clifford: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 17:27, 26 May 2014

Thoughts

Question for pc

Biography

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