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Copyright, 1989, 1991, by the Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904	Beau Lane,
Fairfax	VA 22031-1303 USA Phone	(703) 385-0273

All rights reserved.  Permission to copy granted subject to your
verification that this is the latest version of	this document, that your
distribution be	for the	promotion of Lojban, that there	is no charge for
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Ju'i Lobypli Number 8 -	March 1989
Published by:  The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane,	Fairfax	VA 22031 USA (703)385-0273

     This publication is the articles section of Ju'i Lobypli, the quarterly publication of The	Logical	Language Group,
Inc., known in these pages as la lojbangirz.  la lojbangirz. is	a non-profit organization formed for the purpose of
completing and spreading the logical human language "Lojban".  The newsletter section of Ju'i Lobypli is now separately
published under	the name le lojbo karni	(bearing issue number 8	to correspond with this	JL issue).  You	should already
have received that issue by the	time you receive this.	If not,	and it isn't received within a week or two, please write
and let	us know.
     le	lojbo karni was	distributed to over 400	people,	including all JL subscribers.  Some 275	of you will receive Ju'i


     In	over two weeks since LK8 went out, we have received almost no responses	or income.  Our	bank account will be
down to	about $500.00 after this issue goes out, and we	need $400.00 alone just	to file	the 501(c)(3) papers to	get our
non-profit status.  I've had to	give up	on getting some	professional accounting	help on	the filing, and	on better
organizing our business	finances; we can't afford it.  We are committed	to publishing LK9 by May 1, in order to	make
sure that those	coming to LogFest know the plans, and we don't have the	money right now.
     We	also have put off making cassette tapes	for a few more months, partly to ensure	they are of good quality, partly
because	we cannot afford them in addition to flash cards and other inventory items that	we need	more immediately.  In
preparing for the influx of new	people we hope to receive in response to our new advertising efforts, we are spending
some $1000 per month to	build our publication stock and	prepare	new products of	quality.
     Finances will probably continue to	be tight at least until	after the textbook is finally published, and right now
we don't have the several thousand dollars that	will be	needed to bulk publish the textbook.  We (Bob &	Nora) can't
finance	it - our contribution has been my free labor in	lieu of	my getting a paying job	that would almost certainly
affect the schedule.  The result of insufficient funding will be that the textbook may cost much more than it should.
     Lojban is done; people are	learning it.  To make it succeed, we must have further support.	 I believe that	la
lojbangirz. has	done its part of the bargain in	keeping	Lojban moving.	Have you contributed your share?
     Potential donors please note:  we have not	received IRS approval for Section 501(c)(3) status, which will
officially allow your donations	(not contributions to your voluntary balance) to be tax-deductible.  We	hope to	have
such approval by the end of the	year.  We are operating	in accordance with that	section, and your contributions	now
should be deductible if	approval is obtained later, although there is always the possibility of	disapproval.  You may,
if you wish, make your donation	contingent on our getting such approval.  We will inform all donors at the end of the
year as	to the status of deductibility of their	gifts.	We also	note for all potential donors that our bylaws require us
to spend no more than 30% of our receipts on administrative and	overhead expenses, and that you	are welcome to make you
gifts conditional upon our meeting this	requirement.

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Contents of This Issue

The bulk of this issue is the enclosure	draft lesson 1 of the textbook,	and the	outline	of the rest of the book.  The
draft lesson has been through two revisions, but we welcome your additional comments.  The outline is approximate; we
are finding it necessary to move things	around a little	as we teach the	first class.  Some of the lessons are taking a
little longer than the estimated 3 hours, though part of this may be due to it being new material and own inexperience
in teaching it.	 The textbook should cover all material	in the outline in any case.

Other Contents:

Machine	Translation and	Lojban - Patrick Juola
le lojbo se ciska
     Dave Cortesi's Proverb
     Dialog from Evecon	Presentation
     'The Quest'
     '99 Bottles of Beer'
     lei lojbo
Letters	and Responses
     Dave Cortesi on Lojban's Design
     Rory Hinnen's tanru
     Doug Loss Responds	to my JL7 Comments

Note on	Materials from Ralph Dumain

     We	indicated in LK8 that we would be printing submittals from Ralph Dumain.  Ralph	submitted a good quantity of
material for inclusion in this and later issues, including discussions of several issues relating to the Sapir-Whorf
Hypothesis(SWH), and a bibliography on SWH.  For space and editorial reasons, we cannot	print any of it	in this	issue.
     Given the depth and scope of the material,	which is outside of my expertise, I am having pc (John Parks-Clifford)
review the material for	technical accuracy and possible	response.  Ralph's material has	been provocative in the	past,
and Jim	Brown (among others) has taken personal	offense.  The new material has a mixture of information	and opinion, and
I want readers to be clear as to which is which.  Apparently SWH is controversial on a philosophical, sociological, and
political basis, in addition to	the linguistic relevance it has	to the Lojban project.	We like	the idea of Ju'i Lobypli
contributing to	the intellectual debate	on SWH and other issues; we want that contribution to be balanced and
informative.  With a quarterly publication, we have a risk of a	drawn-out non-productive debate	that will be confusing
to new people who come into the	middle of it.
     Our intent	is to use Ralph's articles as a	focus for one of the discussion	sessions at LogFest, and then to print
his contributions and a	report on the discussions in the following JL issue (#10).

The material on	SCRABBLEtm for Lojban will be delayed until next issue.


Next Issue						     The majority of the modern	MT projects1 use what is called
							     the transfer approach.  Translation is divided into three
Next issue will	include	a reprint of a recent article in     phases: Analysis, Transfer, and Synthesis.	 In analysis,
"The Mathematical Intelligencer", by Professor Robert	     the sentence, phrase,  or paragraph to be translated is
Strichartz of Cornell University, on the need for 'An	     parsed into what is called	a "parse tree,"	a detailed
International Language for Mathematics'.  We will discuss    description of its	syntax.	 At the	same time, the meaning
how Lojban meets the criteria raised by	Dr. Strichartz and   of	the sentence is	analyzed into a	semantic network,
others,	and perhaps go into a little of	our design in this   describing	the meanings of	the individual words and the
area.  While previous versions of the language have	     relationships among them.	This is	obviously a much harder
addressed mathematical expression, Lojban is the first	     project than merely looking up words in the dictionary but
version	of the language	to include a comprehensive	     is	frequently necessary to	get an accurate	translation.
solution to what is called the 'MEX' problem.  We also	     For example : The city council denied a permit to the
hope to	present	some discussions on Lojban's usefulness	as   women because they	advocated violence.  Who advocated
a specialpurpose language for mathematics, philosophy,	     violence, the council or the women?  (In French, they
logic, and computer applications.  We invite your	     would be translated differently, because of the genders.)
contributions on these topics, including responses to	     The transfer involves changing the	parse tree in ways
Patrick	Juola's	letter below.  The subject will	also be	a    specific to the source and	target languages (the actual
topic at LogFest.					     "translation", usually requiring structural changes as
							     well as dictionary	look-up), while	the synthesis is
Machine	Translation and	Lojban				     reverse parsing.
by Patrick Juola
							     The transfer method tends to produce the most accurate
[Patrick Juola is a consultant with the	Systems		     translations.  Because of its firm	theoretical basis in
Architectures Research Dept., AT&T Bell	Laboratories, and    linguistics, it tends to be robust, amenable to analysis,
president of Dorick Industries of Baltimore.  His current    and easy to update/modify.	 On the	other hand, it is
research interests include knowledge representation and	     expensive.	 The amount of semantic	information required
logic programming.  For	correspondence,	contact	him at	     per word is usually extensive, and	the transfer functions or HO 4G-628, AT&T-BL, Crawfords	     tend to be	complex	and expensive to write.	 The TAUM
Corner Rd., Holmdel NJ 07733 (or write to us at	la	     project2, for example, reported costs of $35-40 (Canadian)
lojbangirz.)]						     to	develop	each lexical entry (word, to non-linguists), as
							     well as a cost of 16 cents/word for the actual translation
There is an apocryphal story about an early (1952)	     and post-editing.	(Comparable costs for human translation
automatic English/Russian translation project.	A visiting   were about	12 cents/word.)	Two sets of transfer rules must
senator	asked to see the machine work, and gave	it the	     be	written	for each pair of languages.  For the seven-
phrase Out of sight, out of mind to translate.	The	     language EEC, this	would mean 42 different	transfer
senator, however, knew no Russian, so the (Russian) phrase   functions.	 With the addition of Spain and	Portugal, nine
was sent back through for the senator to read.	The new	     languages and 72 functions.  And so on...
version	read Invisible idiot.
							     The final approach	(and the one where Lojban would	be most
Historically, there have been three main methods of	     useful) is	termed interlingua.  Rather than writing
machine	translation.  The simplest, earliest, and least	     specific transfer rules, one can instead translate	into
functional can be called direct	translation.  These	     "linguistic universals," where the	meaning	and structure
machines operate like a	first-year language student;	     of	the internal representation are	independent of the
looking	up a particular	word or	phrase in a dictionary,	     language from which they were derived.  This method is the
writing	down the corresponding foreign word (or	phrase),     closest to	true "machine understanding" of	language.
then performing	simple transformations (e.g., moving the     Translation is then a two-step process; translating into
verb to	the end	in German) to make the result more	     the interlingua, then translating into the	target
grammatical.  Like a first-year	student, this requires	     language.	This approach was pursued by CETA3 for ten
almost no "understanding" of the language in question, and   years between 1961-71.  It	is obvious that	this method is
(like a	first-year student) the	translations produced tend   easily expandable to multiple languages, since the
to be very bad.	 The Georgetown	Automatic Translator was     interlingual representation can serve as a	source text for
an early machine of this type -- started in 1952, it	     any number	of translations.  (Only	14 functions are needed
became operational in 1964 and was actually in use until     ____________________
1979 (and its "daughter," SYSTRAN, is still commercially     1See (Goshawke 1987) for a	listing	of some	modern
successful).  With the improvement in machine capacities     projects.	(Slocum	1987) has more detailed	(and technical)
(and over thirty years to correct mistakes), SYSTRAN does    descriptions.
produce	acceptable translations.  At the very least,	     2Traduction Automatique de	l'Universit� de	Montreal, 1965-
direct translation provides a yardstick	against	which to     1981 (See Gervais 1980).
measure	more sophisticated projects.			     3Centre d'Etudes pour la Traduction Automatique, Grenoble,


for the	EEC, for instance, and 18 when Spain and Portugal    Since vocabulary and language design problems have	been
are included.) There are several disadvantages,	however.     the major stumbling blocks, Lojban	could already prove a
							     major asset to an interlingua MT project.	The true power
The main problem is the	design of the interlingua.	     of	Lojban as an interlingua cannot	yet be realized, or
Ideally, it should be capable of representing any human	     even assessed.  Computers cannot yet "think" in first-
thought, with all its connotations and associations.  The    order logic.5  When this barrier is breached, (and	at this
vocabulary required would stagger almost any programming     point, we have left the realm of engineering and entered
team.  For example, the	verb to	wear has four different	     science-fiction) Lojban itself may	be a computer
translations in	Japanese, depending upon what one wears.     programming language, making a Lojban-based translator
A programmer would not only need to be aware of	this fact,   self-programming.
but also be able to express what distinguishes the
translations apart, in a form that the computer	can	     The implications of this are staggering, since at this
understand.  This problem is exacerbated by the	fact that    point the "translation program" would be capable of
the computer does not "translate" using	an interlingua;	     understanding and learning	from anything it read.	This
instead, it "retells" the source text in the target	     could be a	breakthrough into true Artificial Intelligence.
language.  In poorly designed systems, this can	lose	     At	the very least,	the translator would approximate human
important syntactic details (such as the passive voice),     abilities in learning languages.  When faced with a new
but even in good systems, style	and connotations can be	     word, the computer	could ask for a	definition (in the
subtly (or unsubtly) affected.	(In contrast, a	transfer     source language or	in Lojban), then use its knowledge of
approach can use cognates and similar items and	avoid this   the language structure to determine how that word should
problem.) Since	the computer must be able to generate an     be	used.  For example, if it received the English word
interlingual representation, if	for any	reason the parser    mallet, defined as	a small	wooden hammer, it would	know
fails (ungrammatical sentences,	specialized jargon or	     (since it knows about hammers) that a mallet is -Human,-
acronyms, typographical	errors,	and simple programmer or     Animate, and +Noun.  It could then	use the	phrase small
hardware errors	can all	cause parser failure), there can     wooden hammer in the target language, and if it ever
be no translation, where a transfer or direct approach can   receives the phrase small wooden hammer in	another	text,
at least generate a word-by-word or phrase-by-phrase	     it	can translate it into English as mallet.  Even without
translation.  Finally, it is obvious that the computer	     the major breakthrough, the fact that Lojban is so
must perform two translations, with corresponding	     structured	and unambiguous	simplifies vocabulary
intelligibility	loss in	both.				     development.  The act of defining a word as a tanru
							     automatically assigns it a	place in a semantic network,
Upon examination, Lojban appears to be an ideal	or near-     and this procedure	could to a large extent	be automated
ideal interlingua.  It is independently	motivated to be	an   using existing AI techniques.  Similarly, the act of
artificial language "capable of	representing any human	     translation into an unambiguous language automatically
thought," although possibly with associations and	     focuses attention on the ambiguities present in the source
connotations of	its own.  The actual vocabulary	of Lojban    text, where expert	systems	or human intelligence can be
is small, with the great majority of the "words" being	     brought to	bear upon and immediately resolve them.
metaphors (comet translates to bisli ke	cmalu plini, "ice-
small-planet."4	 In this case, one "word" is a four-gismu    In	anything resembling artificial intelligence, there is
utterance.)  This makes	the development, addition, and	     always a conflict between those who want to "do it	right",
representation of words	much easier, particularly if	     and those who want	to "just do it."  Since	hardware is
lexical	entries	contain	property lists (i.e. +/-Human, +/-   both inexpensive and fast,	the performance	of even	bad
Animate, +/-Female, etc.) as they do in	most modern	     designs can be quite good.	 In the	long run, however, the
translation projects.  In Lojban, a tanru is defined	     problem of	language understanding and translation is
simply and completely on the basis of its properties	     clearly fundamental to the	development of true machine
("planet, +Ice,	+Small").				     intelligence.  Of the three current approaches to MT, the
							     interlingua is clearly the	most ambitious,	but may	offer
Since Lojban has been developed	from the world's major	     the best long-term	potential for the understanding	of
languages, cognates may	be available for both		     human and machine linguistics.  Lojban (or	a similar
translations, improving	the accuracy of	the translations.    unambiguous language) cannot by itself solve the problems
It still has both the required degree of independence	     of	automatic translation (or AI), but indicates an
(from existing languages) and a	certain	amount of freedom    approach that may put the entire problem of machine
from connotations.  Finally, the task of generating target   intelligence on a much firmer footing.  If	human discourse
text from Lojban should	be marginally simplified by the	     ____________________
regular	structure and high available vocabulary	(of tanru)   5PROLOG, the best known logic programming language, can
of Lojban.						     only express the "Horn clause subset" of first order
							     logic.  It	is also	neither	sound nor complete.  This is
____________________					     typical of	logical	languages where	machine	performance is
4Metaphor by Jamie Bechtel and Bob LeChevalier (JL 7,	     a consideration.  (Lloyd 1984) has	some highly technical
p.29).							     discussion	of the limitations of logic programming.


can be expressed unambiguously and in a	fashion	that
computers can use in their own "reasoning," machine
intelligence is	easily achievable.

It is interesting to speculate on one apparent limitation
of Lojban-based	translation.  Humor based on ambiguity
would be very difficult, if not	impossible, to translate,
since the ambiguity would have been (deliberately) lost	in
the interlingua.  Is this a real limitation of the
translator?  How important is ambiguity	to human language
understanding?	This question relates closely to the
Sapir-Whorf hypothesis,	if we assume that native speakers
of Lojban would	have the same language background as a
Lojban-based AI.  Will native Lojban speakers be able to
understand ambiguity at	all?  These questions must
unfortunately remain open for quite some time (barring
theoretical breakthroughs, until we have native	Lojban
speakers), but are important not only to Lojban, but to
the fundamental	theory of "linguistic universals" and
machine	translation.


Gervais	A. (1980).  Evaluation of the TAUM-AVIATION
Machine	Translation Pilot System.  Translation Bureau,
Secretary of State, Ottawa, Canada.

Goshawke, Walter, et al.  (1987).  Computer Translation	of
Natural	Language.  Halstead Press, NY.

Lloyd, J.W.  (1984).  Foundations of Logic Programming.
Springer-Verlag, Berlin.

Slocum,	Jonathan, Ed. (1987).  Machine Translation
Systems.   Cambridge University	 Press,	Cambridge.

Wilks, Yorick. (1985)  Machine Translation and Artificial
Intelligence : Issues and their	Histories.  Computing
Research Laboratory, New Mexico	State University, Los
Cruces,	New Mexico.


le lojbo se ciska

Dave Cortesi's Proverb

[It's great when someone other than Nora or myself writes in Lojban, since it helps convince the rest of you that Lojban
is indeed easy to learn	and use.  It is	even better when the contribution comes	from someone who has effectively taught
himself	from the teaching limited materials we have produced so	far, and yet is	both reasonably	correct	in grammar and
logical	in approach.  Let Dave's efforts serve as example and inspiration to the many of you that are trying to	learn

Note at	publication:  It's also	important to point out that I am not that expert at Lojban yet.	 I found a last	minute
error and Nora found two more in what I	had told Dave was a perfect translation.  Oh well.  All	of our points are minor,
and they are common areas for confusion	or error.  Dave	still did an excellent job.]


     "jdini" came up on	Lojflash and reminded me of when, back in TL, somebody was trying to translate proverbs.  So I
thought	I'd try	my hand	at "The	love of	money is the root of all evil."	 I think I got it right	but I would like you or
Nora to	check my work.
     After some	false starts I decided that the	final sentence would be	based on "krasi" which means (if I read	the
implicit part of the word-list correctly) "x1 sources x2", leading to:

(the love of money) krasi ro ka	palci

How am I doing so far?

     "money" ==> "jdini", but it isn't the object of acquisitive desire;  that's insatiable.  Loving a particular piece
of currency would only be silly; what it's evil	to love	is:  "loi jdini". Right?
     But this "love" is	not "prami".  The sense	is of "desire" ==> "djica".  And "strong desire", so I used: "carmi
djica".	 And it's the event of that, so	for x1 I end up	with:

le nu ke carmi djica loi jdini kei

There are so many chances for error in that... is it ANYthing like right?
     Anyway, what I had	so far was:

le nu ke carmi djica loi jdini kei krasi ro ka palci

but when I pronounced it, it didn't seem to have the right oratorical feel to it.  Then	it occurred to me that "se
krasi" could be	read as	"x1 arises-from	x2", and that lets me elide the	"kei", giving:

ro ka palci se krasi le	nu ke carmi djica loi jdini

and that is a sentence you can really thunder out as from a pulpit.  It	has a nice swing to it,	and you	can practically
spit the "jdini" at the	end.
     Finally I still wasn't happy with "carmi djica".  The point of the	proverb	is not that desire is wrong because it's
'intense', but because it is 'not controlled'.	I wanted the sense of "unbridled desire."  So there's "control"	==>
"jitro"; "jitro	djica" should be "controlled desire."
     Or	would it?  I can't quite decide	whether	that needs a "ke", as in "jitro	ke djica" for "controlled type-of
desire," or whether the	simpler	tanru sequence does it.
     Anyway, I want the	opposite of "jitro", which would be "na	jitro" as a bridi but I	see it requires	"bo" to	limit it
to one tanru, hence:

na bo jitro (ke?) djica


is my unbridled	desire.	 I gather that I could write that "naljitro"  I	won't take the chance, but "naljitro" (if it
really means "unbridled") would	be a handy composite to	have.
     So, final form of "The love of money is the root of all evil." is:

ro ka palci se krasi le	nu ke nabo jitro djica loi jdini

Comments from Bob:  Dave's reasoning was impeccable, and was accurate based on the materials he	had at the time	that he
wrote it.  He had a significant	grammatical error which	we didn't notice until preparing this issue; there have	also
been two minor changes that affected the grammar materials he used to write this.
     The error came when he reversed his bridi by conversion with "se".	 Whereas the "kei" in the "nu" abstraction
adequately terminated that sumti in the	x1 position, he	has not	included a terminator on "ro ka	palci".	 The tanru thus
continues, absorbing the "se krasi" (The result	is grammatical:	 two sumti with	no kunbri, but is not what he wanted to
say.)  Since he	wants to separate "se krasi" as	the kunbri for the sentence, he	can best do this by marking the	start of
the kunbri with	the separator "cu".  There also	are an elided "ku" and "kei" at	the end	of the x1 sumti, either	of which
would have been	adequate for termination in this sentence, but "cu" is the more	general	solution.
     This gives:

ro ka palci cu se krasi	le nu ke nabo jitro djica loi jdini

     The first change to the grammar is	that "ke" is no	longer required	after "nu" to give 'long scope'	to the
abstraction; this is the recent	change mentioned in LK8.  The other is that "bo" is not	required after "na" in negating
brivla;	'short scope' (of one brivla) on "na" is assumed (this was an error on my part when I wrote the	grammar
description that he used).  On his other questions:
     1.	"ke" in	the middle of the tanru	"jitro djica" is permitted but not necessary.  "ke" serves only	to cause
grouping in tanru, and has an implicit 'elidable' terminator "kei" at the end of the tanru.  Used in the manner	Dave
asks about, these 'brackets' group a single term, which	has no effect on the tanru or sentence structure.
     2.	There are no 'official'	lujvo or definitions, but Dave's assumption of "unbridled" or "uncontrolled" seems the
most logical for "naljitro".  "na jitro" is still correct, as well.

Comments from Nora:
     The tanru "na jitro djica"	probably isn't what you	want; it means "not-controller type-of wanter".	 You probably
want "not-controlled", or "na se jitro djica".	As a lujvo, this becomes "nalseljitro djica".  Bob amends his last
point:	"naljitro" can't mean "uncontrolled".
     She would prefer "loi nu nalseljitro ..." or "lo nu nalseljitro ...".  She	back translates	as "All	evilnesses
originate from the events of uncontrolled desire for money".  Evil isn't caused	by specific things you are describing as
uncontrolled desires; it is caused by things which are such events ("lo"), or possibly by the mass of such uncontrolled
desires	("loi").  This is a semantic choice and	not a grammar error; what you choose depends on	what you think the
aphorism means.	 Of these two, Bob would go for	"lo":  "All evilnesses originate from events of	uncontrolled desire for
money";	if "ro ka palci" were "loi ka palci", then the other could also	be "loi": "The mass of evilness	originates from
the mass of uncontrolled wantings of money."

     The corrected expression, including all of	our comments, is thus:

ro ka palci cu se krasi	lo nu nalseljitro djica	loi jdini
/ro,kah	PAHL,shee shu,seh KRAH,see lo,nu nahl,sehl,ZHEE,tro JEE,shah loi ZHDEE,nee/

     Again, these errors are relatively	minor.	Dave has the right idea.  Keep up the good work.

Dialog from Evecon Presentation

     The following dialog was used by Athelstan	and Bob	at the presentation on Lojban at Evecon, New Years Eve.	 Later
that evening, this convention featured the wedding of convention organizers Bruce and Cheryl Evry.  Unfortunately, none


of us managed to attend	the wedding due	to our over-active Lojban recruiting efforts, but reports indicated that it
wasn't anything	to sleep through.

B:   coi .Atlstan. xu do ba klama le specfari'i	be la brus. .e la cerl.
     /shoi .AH,tl,stahn. khu do	bah KLAH,mah leh speh,shfah,REE,hee beh	lah brus .eh lah sheh,rl./
     "Greetings, Athelstan.  Is-it-true	you will-go to the wedding of the-one-called-Bruce and the-one-called-Cheryl."
     "Hi, Athelstan.  Are you going to Cheryl's	and Bruce's wedding?"

A:   cu'i go'i gi'onai sipna
     /shu,hee go,hee gee,ho,nai	SEEP,nah/
     "(Uncertain) The-last  if-and-only-not-if	(I) sleep."
     "I	don't know.  Either that, or I'll be sleeping."

B:   do	na banzu sipna ca le prula'icte	.ije'i loi specfari'i cu na cinri do
     /do nah BAHN,zu SEEP,nah shah leh pru,lah,HEE,shteh .ee,zheh,hee loi speh,shfah-REE-hee shu nah SHEEN-ree do/
     "You not-sufficiently-sleep on the	last-night. (and-how-logically-connected-this-with-the-bridi) Weddings are-not-
     interesting to-you."
     "Didn't you get enough sleep last night?  Or don't	weddings interest you?"

A:   ja	.i mi cupli'u la .uest.	vrdjinias. ca le prula'icte
     /zhah .ee mee shup,LEE-hu lah .wehst. vr-JEE-nyas.	shah leh pru-lah-HEE-shteh/
     "Or.  I loop-traveled via-West Virginia on-the-last-night."
     "(Non-committally)	One or the other.  I went to West Virginia and back last night."

B:   .uu le zu'o go'i cu tapri'a nandu .i pei do sipna cavi le specfari'i
     /wu leh zu,ho go,hee shu tahp,REE,hah NAHN,du  .ee	pei do SEEP,nah	cah,vee	leh speh,shfah,REE,hee/
     "(Regret!)	The activity-of-the-last is tired-causingly difficult.	(How do	you feel about?) you sleep during-at-
     "I'm sorry	to hear	that.  You could always	sleep at the wedding." (Intended humorously)

A:   u'e .a'a
     /.u,heh .ah,hah/
     "(Humor!) (Expectation!)
     "Ha, ha! I	expect so!"

'The Quest' ('The Impossible Dream') from Man of la Mancha
Copyright 1965 Andrew Scott, Inc. and Helena Music Corp.

     I (Bob) attempted to translate this song and the theme song from 'Man of La Mancha' back in 1980 as my first effort
in learning the	language.  I failed miserably; the grammar was far too complicated for what was	presented in the "Loglan
1" book.  I visited Dr.	Brown (JCB) with my efforts; he	was discouraging about my translation attempts and the efforts I
had made to learn the language,	and I abandoned	my then-attempts to learn, though I continued to support the project.
     I endeavored to preserve rhythm as	well as	content	in this	translation, and can sing it somewhat after a fashion.
A glossary of lujvo and	a couple of cmavo is given at the end.

le mivmu'i

ai mi senva		 le na se senva	ke traji
.ije damba		 le na seldamba	ke traji
.ije renvi		 le drikai na selrenvi
.ije virklama		 le virnu na se	darsi

.ije drari'a		 le na draselri'a ke traji


.ije curve		 je darno ke prami
.ije troci se		 pi'o le dusta'i ke birka
.ije snada		 le na selsnada	mukti

.i mi selmu'i lenu	 jersi la'ede'u
.iju mi	na pacna	 .iju du'erda'o

.i mi damba mu'i loi xamgu    sekainai loi senkai ja depkai
.i mi gunta le cevypro ki'u le cevmu'i .aicai

.i ganai mi ralte .ai	 le mukti noika	selsi'a	  kei gi'e ka curve
gi mi vreta sekai	 loi pankai je smakai	  ca lenu mi morsi

.i loi rolremzda	 ba xagmau ri'a
lenu pa	prenu		 noi selckasu gi'e xramu'e
bapu troci		 sepi'o	ro leri	vrikai
lenu snada		 le na selsnada	ke tarci


cevmu'i	     cevni mukti     godly motive
cevypro	     cevni fapro     god opposer
depkai	     denpa ckaji     the property of waiting (pause)
drari'a	     drani rinka     to	correct
draselri'a   drani se rinka  to	be corrected
drikai	     badri ckaji     sorrow
du'erda'o    dukse darno     excessively far
dusta'i	     dukse tatpi     excessively tired
la'ede'u		     the referent of the earlier sentences
mivmu'i	     jmive mukti     life-goal (quest)
papkai	     panpi ckaji     peacefulness
rolremzda    ro	remna zdani  all-human nest (world)
selckasu     se	ckasu	     ridiculed
seldamba     se	damba	     opponent/foe
selmu'i	     se	mukti	     be	motivated (by ...)
selrenvi     se	renvi	     survivable
selsi'a	     se	sinma	     esteemed, honored
selsnada     se	snada	     achievable
senkai	     senpi ckaji     the property of doubt (question)
smakai	     smaji ckaji     property of quietness
virklama     virnu klama     bravely-go-forth
vrikai	     virnu ckaji     bravery
xagmau	     xamgu zmadu     better
xramu'e	     xrani mutce     much injured

Pronunciation and Phrasing Guide

    .ai	 mi	senva	 le  na	 se  senva	 ke  traji
   /.ai	 mee	SEHN,vah leh,nah,seh SEHN,vah	 keh,TRAH,zhee/
     -	  -	 /    -	      -	       /    -	   -	/    -
    .ije damba		 le na	 seldamba	  ke traji
   /.ee,zheh	DAHM,bah leh,nah,sehl,DAHM,bah	  keh,TRAH,zhee/
     -	  -	 /    -	      -	       /    -	   -	/    -
    .ije     renvi	     le	     drikai   na  selrenvi


   /.ee,zheh REHN,vee	     leh     DREE,kai,nah sehl,REHN,vee/
     -	  -	 /    -	      -	       /     -	   -	/    -
 .ije	  virklama	     le	      virnu	na se	darsi
/.ee,zheh veer,KLAH,mah	     leh      VEER,nu	nah,seh	DAHR,see/
    -	   -	 /   -	      -	       /    -	   -	 /    -

 .ije	  drari'a	     le	 na  draselri'a	       ke  traji
/.ee,zheh drah,REE,hah	     leh,nah drah,sehl,REE,hah keh TRAH,zhee/
   -	   -   /   -		-	 -	/   -	-    /	  -
  .ije	      curve	       je	       darno   ke  prami
 /.ee	zheh SHUR,veh	      zheh	       DAHR,no keh PRAH,mee/
   -	  -    /   -		- -		/    -	-    /	 -
  .ije	     troci se	    pi'o   le	   dusta'i     ke   birka
 /.ee	zheh TRO,shee,seh	 pee,ho,leh	du,STAH,hee keh	 BEER,kah/
   -	  -    /     -		 -	    -	/   -	-    /	  -
  .ije	     snada	      le  na	 selsnada	    mukti
 /.ee	zheh SNAH,dah	      leh,nah	 sehl,SNAH,dah	    MUK,tee/
   -	  -    /   -		 -	  -	/   -	     /	 -

 .i  mi	    selmu'i	lenu  jersi	la'ede'u
/.ee,mee    sehl,MU,hee	leh,nu	   ZHEHR,see lah,heh,deh,hu/
    -	     -	  /  -	   -	/    -	 -   -	 /   -
 .iju	 mi  na	 pacna	 .iju	   du'erda'o
/.ee,zhu mee,nah PAHSH,nah    .ee,zhu	du,hehr,DAH,ho/
    -	    -	  /	-      /    -	 -  -	 /   -

 .i  mi	 damba	  mu'i	 loi xamgu	  sekainai    loi  senkai    ja	   depkai
/.ee mee DAHM,bah mu,hee,loi KHAHM,gu	  seh,kai,nai loi  SEHN,kah  zhah  DEHP,kai/
  -   -	  /    -      -	       /    -	   -   /   -   -    /	 -     -    /	 -
 .i  mi	 gunta		 le  cevypro	  ki'u	 le  cevmu'i	      .aicai
/.ee mee GUN,tah	 leh SHEHV,uh,pro kee,hu,leh shehv,MU,hee     .ai,shai/
  -   -	  /   -		  -    /     -	   -   /  -    -    /  -       -    /

 .i  ganai   mi	 ralte	  .ai			  le  mukti   noika   selsi'a	kei gi'e    ka	curve
/.ee gah,nai,mee RAHL,teh .ai			  leh MUK,tee,noi,kah,sehl,SEE,hah   kei gee,heh kah SHUR,veh/
  -   /	  -   -	  /    -   -			   -   /     -	     -	    /	-     -	    -		/   -
 gi  mi	 vreta	  sekai	 loi  papkai   je     smakai   ca   lenu   mi  morsi
/gee,mee VREH,tah seh,kai			  loi  PAHP,kai	zheh   SMAH,kai	shah leh,nu mee	MOR,see/
    -	   /   -     -	  -    /    -	 -	/   -	 -   /	 -  -	/   -.
 .i  loi rolremzda	 ba	   xagmau		ri'a
/.ee,loi rol,REHM,zdah	 bah	   KHAHG,mau		ree,hah/
    -	  -   /	    -	  -	     /	  -		 -   /
 le  nu	pa  prenu	 noi selckasu	      gi'e    xramu'e
/leh,nu	pah PREH,nu	 noi,sehl,SHKAH,su    gee,heh,khrah,MU,heh/
  -   -	 -    /	  -	    -	     /	 -	   -	     /	-
   bapu	    troci	 sepi'o		ro	leri	   vrikai
  /bah,pu   TRO,shee	 seh,pee,ho	ro	leh,ree	   VREE,kai/
    -	-     /	  -	    -	  /	 -	   -	     /	 -
   lenu	    snada	 le  na	 selsnada	  ke	    tarci
  /leh,nu   SNAH,dah	 leh,nah,sehl,SNAH,dah	  keh	    TAHR,shee/
    -	-     /	  -	  -	-	/   -	   -	     /	   -

     I'm rather	proud of where I was able to obtain both pseudo-waltz 9/8 tempo, and some nice alliteration effects, as
in line	12 (.i mi gunta...).  Lojban's tendency	towards	more syllables than English occasionally forced	the rhythm to be


a little strained; there are places where three	syllables must be said in one beat.  I believe this happens quite a lot
in song	translations, though, and sometimes even in the	original songs.


le mivmu'i
the quest

.ai mi senva		 le na se senva	ke traji
(Intention!) I am-a-dreamer   about the	not-dreamable superlatives.
.ije damba		 le na seldamba	ke traji
And fighter		 against not-combatable	superlatives.
.ije renvi		 le drikai na selrenvi
And survivor		 of sorrowful non-survivables.
.ije virklama		 le virnu na se	darsi
And brave-goer		 to the	brave-not-dared	(places).

.ije drari'a		 le na draselri'a ke traji
And corrector		 of the	not-correctable	superlatives.
.ije curve		 je darno ke prami
And pure		 -and-afar-type-of-lover.
.ije troci se		 pi'o le dusta'i ke birka
And attemptor		 using the excessively-tired-type-of-arms(s).
.ije snada		 le na selsnada	mukti
And achiever		 of not	achievable goals.

.i mi selmu'i lenu	 jersi la'ede'u
I am motivated by states of   pursuing the referents of	these sentences.
.iju mi	na pacna	 .iju du'erda'o
Whether	I not-hope-for.	 Whether excessively far.

.i mi damba mu'i loi xamgu    sekainai loi senkai ja depkai
I fight	motivated by the good,	   (the	fighting) characterized-not-by Doubt-or-Pause.
.i mi gunta le cevypro ki'u le cevmu'i .aicai
I attack the godly-opponent justified-by the godly-motive.  (Of	course I will!)

.i ganai mi ralte .ai	 le mukti noi ka selsi'a  kei gi'e ka curve
If I retain (Certainly,	I will!) the motive which is incidentally characterized	by the property	of (its) being esteemed
as well	as pure,
gi mi vreta sekai	 loi papkai je smakai	  ca lenu mi morsi
then I rest, characterized by			  peace	and quietness, at-the-time-of the-event-of I die.

.i loi rolremzda	 ba xagmau ri'a
The world of man's home	 will be-better, because
lenu pa	prenu		 noi selckasu gi'e xramu'e
acts of	one-person	 who, (he/she) incidentally (being) ridiculed and much-injured,
bapu troci		 sepi'o	ro leri	vrikai
(he) will have attempted,     using all	of his/her bravery,
lenu snada		 le na selsnada	ke tarci
acts of	achieving	 the not-achievable star(s).

     There are several grammatically unnecessary "ke"s inserted	to preserve Lojban's stress rules.  These, and including
elidable terminators like "ku" and "kei" when otherwise	unnecessary, will probably be a	useful bit of 'poetic license'


that is	perfectly grammatical.	In the next example, the normally elidable number terminator "boi" is used for this

'99 Bottles of Beer'

     The following is taken verbatim from Lesson 3 of the draft	textbook, and uses only	vocabulary and grammar taught up
to that	point.	Not great literature, but we have only 300 words and less than 1/6 of the grammar available to use at
that point, yet	the translation	comes out as desired.


     We	get to do something different at this point.  We will practice numbers,	abstraction, and pronunciation,	by
singing	a Lojban translation of	a familiar song:

le sosoboi dacti cu botpi le birje
.i le sosoboi botpi cu galtu
.i nu pa le botpi cu farlu le loldi
.i le bitmu cu ralte sobiboi le	botpi

     The song is translated in the answer key in the back of the book, in case the instructor wants to use this	as a
group or individual exercise.  The elidable "ku"s and "kei"s have been omitted for the sake of the rhythm, whereas some
of the "boi"s, all unnecessary,	seem to	help that rhythm.
     You will find, of course, that the	translation is not identical to	the English, but is close enough that you will
be able	to identify the	song and its tune.  When the class knows what the song means, it can then be sung as a group
pronunciation exercise,	with a little quick thinking on	your numbers necessary in order	to do later verses.
     Note the use of the abstraction as	an observative bridi.  This is a fairly	unusual	occurrence; it would be	hard to
find a better or more appropriate example of when it is	useful.

[I - You should	have pre-written the song in large print on a board so you can talk about the translation if needed, and
so you can point to lines as they are sung.

After a	couple of verses, you can speed	up the activity	and make it more challenging by	having more than one bottle
fall.  Just say	(or change on the board):

xa le botpi cu farlu

and indicate that they are to continue.	 If necessary, help them out by	writing	in numerals (not text),	the new	number
of bottles.  Pre-plan the numbers to be	subtracted so that you use all of the digits, and have the answers in front of
you so you don't make a	mistake.  It is	a good idea to have rehearsed this one with your partner.]

					    Translation	of the Activity	Song

				       'Ninety-Nine Bottles of Beer on the Wall'

le sosoboi dacti cu botpi le birje
"The ninety-nine things	are-bottles containing beer."

.i le sosoboi botpi cu galtu
"The ninety-nine bottles are high."

.i nu pa le botpi cu farlu le loldi
"(Observe!) One	of the bottles is-falling to the floor."


.i le bitmu cu ralte sobiboi le	botpi
"The wall retains ninety-eight of the bottles."

Pronunciation and Phrasing Guide

     le	 sosoboi      dacti	cu  botpi     le birje
    /leh so,so,boi    DAHSH,tee	shu BOT,pee   leh BEER,zheh/
      -	  /  -	-      /     -	  -  /	 -     -   /	 -
 .i  le	 sosoboi      botpi	cu  galtu
/.ee leh so,so,boi    BOT,pee	shu GAHL,tu/
  -   -	  /  -	-      /   -	  -  /	  -
     .i	 nu   pa  le  botpi	cu  farlu     le  loldi
    /.ee nu   pah leh BOT,pee	shu FAHR,lu   leh LOL,dee/
      -	  /    -   -   /   -	  -  /	  -    -   /   -
 .i  le	 bitmu	 cu   ralte	 sobiboi      le  botpi
/.ee leh BEET,mu shu  RAHL,teh	 so,bee,boi   leh BOT,pee.
  -   -	  /    -   -   /    -	  -  /	 -     -   /   -

     As	you can	see, the rhythm	came out perfect, and the last line even emphasizes the	digit which changes.  Try it!

lei lojbo

     First, a new strip:

Bob: mi	ba te cmene do zo sam.
     I will be-who-calls-by-name you 'Sam'.
     .i	mu'i bo	le nu zo sam. rafsi zo skami
     Because (motivational) the-state-of 'Sam' is-the-affix-for	'skami'	(computer).
     "I	will call you 'Sam', since 'Sam' is the	affix for the Lojban word for 'computer'."

Sam: mi	skami gi'e se cmene le rafsi be	zo skami
     I <compute-(logical AND)-{am-named	the affix of 'skami'}>.
     .i	.ua mi jimpe loi cmene
     (Discovery!) I understand the-joint-mass-of names.
     "I'm a computer, and am named the affix for the Lojban word for 'computer'.  Wow! I understand names."

Nora:	  mi nitcu lei zbabu le	nu lumci ti
     I need the-specific-mass-of-soap-I-have-in-mind for-purpose the-act-of washing-this.
     .i	ra zvati ma
     The referent of the earlier sumti (the soap) is-at	where?
     "I	need the soap to wash this.  Where is it?"

Sam: .ue zo .bab. rafsi	zo zbabu
     (Surprise!) 'bab' is the affix for	'zbabu'.
     "Oh! 'bab'	is the affix for the Lojban word for 'soap'."

Sam: la	bab. zvati ti
     The-one-called-'bab' is at	this-here-place.
     .i	ko pilno la bab.
     (Imperative you) Use the-one-called-'bab'.
     "'bab' is here.  Use him!"


Nora:	  .ui la sam. drani
     (Happiness!) Sam is-correct.
     .i	mi ba pilno do doi bab.	le nu lumci ti
     I will use	you (Vocative: O Bob) for-purpose the-act-of-washing this.
     "Sam's right.  I'll use you to wash this."

Nora:	  do prije doi skami
     "You are-wise (Vocative: O	computer)."

Bob: mi	cfipu
     "I'm confused."

Sam: .e'e cu'i
     (Decision - modified as indifferently positive/negative = Indecision)
     .i	zo .noras. rafsi ma
     "'noras' is-the-affix of what (Lojban word)?"

     The joke should be	obvious	in this	case.  Our friendly computer has generalized from a single case, as he has done
in previous strips.  Nora's poetic streak has allowed her to be	the beneficiary	of this	supra-logical generalization,
instead	of the victim she usually is.
     Lojban names (as opposed to Lojbanized non-Lojban names) will probably be made from words and rafsi in just this
manner:	 'Lojban' itself is such a name.  There	are no conventions to distinguish Lojbanized non-Lojban	names from
coined-in-Lojban names - a name	is simply what is used to label	something; the etymology of a name, like most word
etymologies, is	interesting and	sometimes informative, but is not generally vital (or even relevant) to	communications.
Lojban uses word-building to allow such	etymology to serve as a	clue to	a listener who doesn't know the	word; this
hopefully permits greater power	to express new concepts.
     Among other interesting grammar aspects in	this strip are the changing meanings of	"ti".  Like its	corresponding
English	word "this", "ti" can change meanings as often as several times	in a sentence.	Its fellow demonstratives "ta"
and "tu" also can vary.	 These 'pronouns' mean only what you want them to at the time you use them - the attachment of
'pronoun' to referent does not remained	fixed as it does for "ko'a" and	its free variable relatives and	"da" and its
bound variable relatives.
     "ra" and its relatives also vary as the sentence develops.	 These are the 'back-counting' variables.  "ri"	refers
to the immediate preceding sumti; "ra" to an earlier but nearby	sumti; "ru" to a relatively far	back sumti.  In	the
sentence using "ra" in the comic, we could not use "ri"	since it would refer to	the 'le	nu ...'	sumti at the end of the
previous sentence.  Back-counting from within a	sumti cannot refer the sumti itself:  "le nu ri	xamgu" is not self-
referential; the "ri" does not count the "le" of which it is a sub-part.
     When you need to hold onto	a back-reference, you can assign it to a "ko'a"-series variable	with "goi":

mi nelci ri goi	ko'a . i la Noras. nelci ko'a

     If	"ri" were not assigned to "ko'a", you could not	tell the referent of "ko'a".  If you used "ri" again, it would
refer to "la noras."
     There is debate as	to whether other pro-sumti should be counted:  Does "mi	nelci ri" say that I am	fond of	myself,
or of some earlier sumti referent?  I (Bob) favor ignoring simple pro-sumti in back-counting for pragmatic reasons:  it
wastes the counting access to other sumti.  The	counting is harder but more useful.  This is a debate dating from
earlier	versions of the	language (where	"ko'a" and "ri"	usages used the	same set of words); the	question will probably
be settled based on usage by the first speakers	in the next couple of months.
     In	the first caption, .i mu'i bo is used to motivationally	connect	the second sentence to the first.  The structure
to connect two sentences is, of	course ".i".  But if you want to add a causal (or any modal) connective	(like "mu'i" to
tie the	two sentences together,	you need something to separate the "mu'i" from the main	sentence.  Otherwise, it will be
taken as a modal sumti tag.  From our caption for example, if the "bo" were omitted, "mu'i" would slurp	up "zoi	.sam."
making the caption translate as:


     I will be-who-calls-by-name you 'Sam'.
     Because (motivational) of 'Sam' (something) is-the-affix-for 'skami' (computer).
     "I	will call you 'Sam'.  Because of 'Sam',	something is the affix for the Lojban word for 'computer'."

     This isn't	what you want.
     The LK8 strip is repeated,	now that you know how the names	came about:

     Bob attaches a portable 'robot' peripheral	to 'Sam' the computer.	He uses	a complex tense	to say:

do punaijeca litru doi sam.
do <({pu nai} je {ca}) litru> <doi sam.>
"You past-not-(logical AND)-present travel.  Vocative: O Sam.
"You couldn't-and-now-can travel, O Sam".

     Sam is happy about	this (Will a computer that understands Lojban be able to use emotional indicators?):

(Attitudinal indicator of happiness)

     Sam causes	Nora to	drop her paint brush by	surprising her:

chases the cat:

ko denpa doi lat.
"(Imperative You) Wait.	 Vocative: O Lat."
"lat" is the rafsi for "mlatu" (x1 is a	cat).
"Wait, O Cat! "

and causes Bob to trip while watching cartoons on television (what else	would a	mobile computer	do?)  Bob complains:

"(Attitudinal indicator	of complaint)"

and the	robot ends up in the garbage can.
     Sam, in self-pity,	uses an	even more complex tense	to say:

pu ki ku mi punaijecajebanai litru
{pu ki ku} {mi <{pu nai} je {ca} je {ba	nai}> litru}
"Relative to a previous	reference time:	 I <past-not-(logical AND)-present-(logical AND)-future-not> travel.
"At some (the) previous	time, I	couldn't-and-now-could-and-then-couldn't-in-the-future travel. Oooh!".

     "ki" resets the space-time	reference point	(the narrative time) to	the tense it is	attached to, in	this case an
unspecified but	obvious-from-context time in the past.	The remainder of the expression	then is	expressed from the point
of view	of that	time.  We do something like this with complex tenses in	English, such as in:

"She will be at	work by	7AM.  She had better have gotten up early."

     The second	sentence, expressed in the past	tense, nonetheless is probably in the future of	the speaker; the "had
better"	is one irregular way to	put the	reference time to that of the previous sentence.  Compare with:


"She will be at	work by	7AM.  She got up early."
"She will be at	work by	7AM.  She has gotten up	early."
"She will be at	work by	7AM.  She had gotten up	early."

     Each of these conveys a slightly (and perhaps subtly) different relationship between the time of expression, the
time of	arriving at work, and the time of getting up.  The relative time-frame expressed by succeeding sentences will
also vary depending on which of	these forms is used.
     By	putting	the attitudinal	after "litru", the implication is that the travelling is the source of the regret,
rather than the	 whole sentence.  Attitudinals attach to the previous word (or structure - if the word is a terminator
of a structure), unless	at the beginning of the	sentence, where	it modifies the	whole sentence,	or unless preceded by
"fu'e" which causes indicator scope to the right until marked, even across sentence boundaries.	 This latter may not be
a truly	'natural' usage; the assumption	is that	emotions expressed as indicators are somewhat spontaneous, and that true
'forethought' is unlikely.  However, discursives such as 'On the other hand' and 'However' are also expressed as
indicators, so that the	possible usage for emotional expression	is a side effect.  (It is useful for ritualistic and
poetic expressions of emotion, and I used "fu'e" in the	Lord's Prayer translation.
     As	indicated in LK8, the humor derives from the 'natural' use of the complexity of	the tense by our all-too-literal
computer.  In actuality, tenses	of this	complexity will	be uncommon in Lojban.	Remember, of course, that tense	is
optional in Lojban in the first	place.	Lojban 'tense' also can	include	location, and it is permitted to inflect Lojban
bridi with causal, comparative,	and modal operators using the grammar of tense,	such that they act like	a cross	between
a tense	and an English adverb.
     I (Bob) spent a lot of time developing a systematic tense approach	that treats time and space as equally as
possible (allowing straightforward discussion of relativity concepts), while allowing the forms	used in	common
conversations to simplify down to their	past Lojban usage.  I used inputs from John Parks-Clifford, whose specialty is
tense logic, and he has	reviewed the current design.  Only usage will determine	whether	some of	the more esoteric forms
are worth having.

     The design	is both	simple and complex.  It	is simple from the standpoint that all structures are set up to	follow a
single pattern so that it is easy to determine what pieces of a	complex	tense expression mean, and the proper order of
terms.	The result is that our tense design is grammatically unambiguous under the LALR1 algorithm, like the rest of the
language.  Previous language versions did not define the structure of tense compounds, and I found them	to be a	major
area of	ambiguity in grammar as	well as	inadequately defined.
     The tense system is complex in terms of the power involved	in such	a design, and the number of rules and words
needed to express and explain it (tense-related	rules constitute about 15% of the grammar).  If	pc hadn't convinced me
that English tense expressions are among the most convoluted and hard to understand parts of the language, I would
evaluate my own	design as using	a steamroller to squash	an ant.	 As it is, there will be a lot of the structure	that
will be	little used except by physicists and philosophers.  So,	you learn it and possibly forget it - until you	run
across a situation like	the one	in the comic, when it is both clear and	elegant.

Letters	and Responses

     Dave Cortesi was one of those who reviewed	the section of the draft grammar description and cmavo list that I
produced late last year.  His comments were almost embarrassingly complimentary, but he	urged me to print them anyway.

Dave Cortesi on	Lojban's Design

     Let me say, man, I	am IMPRESSED.  There is	one hell of a lot of high-quality engineering visible in this work.  You
should take great pride	in how much you've accomplished.  Sure,	lots of	the ideas and work came	from others, but you
have done an amazing job of organizing and coordinating	a huge quantity	of very, very sophisticated stuff.
     There is an interesting contrast here.  Jim Brown's Loglan-1 was written in such an articulate, charming way (as is
all his	work) that it sold me totally, and I set out to	learn the language on my own.  I well remember the many	hours of
extremely frustrating labor that followed until	I gave up.  And	of course over the following years we found out	the
language of Loglan-1 wasn't anywhere near done.


     Now here we have these very dense,	not very charming, engineering notes on	the design of Lojban.  I can't say for
sure yet, but it looks to me as	if this	language really	is there to be learned.
     I guess if	you can't have both good engineering and good writing then the Lojban effort at	least did the more
important thing	first, which is	to really get the design finished.
     That doesn't let you off the hook,	though;	 I still insist	you have to rewrite that summary.

Bob responds:
     Dave is a professional writer, with books and columns under his belt, so I	take his comments seriously.  The
consensus among	the reviewers was that,	from what I had	finished, it was clear that the	language was done and ready to
be taught (hence our current classes).	The description, however, was written as a design specification	- and my writing
experience outside these pages is limited to writing government	system specifications.	I'm good at that, but what is
needed in a specification is detail and	accuracy, and convincing the reader that the design is well thought out	and
complete.  Dave's comments show	that Lojban-as-an-engineered-language meets that standard.  The	grammar	description,
though,	is so dense that it can	only serve as a	reference work for someone who has the basics of the language down.  It
then provides answers to a lot of nitty-gritty questions about how to resolve priorities of grammar rules, etc.	 It is
also designed to be used with the machine grammar description, which is	a very formal set of rules.  We	thus don't
recommend either to anyone not willing to work at it, and possibly being familiar with computer	language specifications
in 'BNF' format.
     The grammar description will not be revised until the textbook is done.  It has thus fallen into being a little
obsolete, as minor changes are made in tuning the grammar while	we write the textbook.	It still is a valuable document
for what it covers, and	the final draft	version	(late this year) will serve as the basis for the grammar baselining that
will truly say that Lojban is DONE.


Rory Hinnen's tanru					     which we need for life each day."	As I recall, there was a
							     word in L4&5 for "necessities of life."  It seemed	that
...							     this was what was meant by	the (metaphorical) "bread."  For
     I'm a manager in a	fast food restaurant here in	     what it's worth.
California, so when you	suggested you want lujvo based on	  I've been thinking about Jamie Bechtel's tanru and
what we	deal with, as a	joke I started messing with the	     would like	to take	a crack	at 3 of	them.
once-uniquely-American concept of fast food.			  You were correct in your comments on his attempt at
     sutsabdja is of course what you get when you go to	any  "white noise," but	your cunso dirce or blabi dirce	don't
McDonalds.  Not	necessarily quickly made, or even fresh,     get at the	concept	either,	I'm afraid.  I'm pretty	sure
but theoretically served fast.	Probably this is what most   this is the correct definition of white noise, although it
people have in mind when they think of fast food.	     wouldn't hurt to check with an audio engineer:  sound with
     sutyjupydja would be microwaveable	food.  sutryzbadja   equal energy at all frequencies, to the limit of the
would be the corporate ideal (I	refuse the concept that	     transducer.  This isn't random at all.
fast food is truly "cooked").					  To get at that definition, I made "frequency"	as slilu
     This leads	to the customers' ideal	of sutkemjupsabdja,  parbi, which collapses nicely to sliparbi.	 Then white
food that is made and served quickly.			     noise becomes rolsliparbi sance (or ro sliparbi sance; I'm
     The decor of said establishments encourage	sutctidja    still not sure when and where rol can be used).  There is a
(or in English,	"suicide"), which could	result in be'ucro.   similar concept called black-body radiation, although I'm a
But then that might be from slabu (slasutsabdja) sutsabdja,  bit hazy on the exact definition of the term.  I think
too.							     rolsliparbi dirce might be	closer to that than to white
     That's not	bad, actually.	Compared to the	English	     noise, though.
"Fast food" (two syllables, rather difficult to	say because	  A sieve is a specialized version of a	more general
of the sibilants), sutsabdja has only one more syllable	and  concept, a	filter.	 "Filter" (or "sieve", for that	matter)
seems to be just as fast.  In terms of written space,	     might be sepli zbasu, which collapses to sepyzba or
they're	equal (I'm counting the	space as an active letter -  se'izba.  Any place structure for this concept should
although one could write fastfood, the reader would	     include a place for the fineness of the filtering,
probably regard	it as an error).			     something like "X filters Y at fineness Z."  Do we	get to
							     make new place structures for tanru?  They	will often (I
Bob responds:  The tanru and lujvo are quite good and	     suspect) have different meanings than modified versions of
entertainingly presented; it is	clear that Roy is	     the last gismu in them.
attempting to make fine	distinctions with his various		  "Brachiate" is relatively easy.  Assuming Jamie means
words, and the Lojban conveys those distinctions nicely.     to	swing through trees like gibbons do, try birka dandu
This is	one of my favorite aspects of Lojban - thinking	     muvdu.  This collapses to birdadmuvdu or birdadmu'u.  If he
about what exactly you want to say, and	expressing it	     means having widely spreading branches or having brachia
concisely and effectively.				     (armlike appendages), I haven't thought about it.
								  The name for the mythical country seems straight-
************************************************	     forward too.  Loglandia was a cute	play on	the last 3
Doug Loss Responds to my JL7 Comments			     letters of	"logla"	and the	first 3	of "land."  Since
							     "loglan" wasn't a word in Loglan, it didn't matter	that
     First, thanks for the comments on my tanru	attempts.    this was an entirely English jape.	 As lojban was
I now realize that I got my ordering mixed up.	I think	     constructed to be a word in lojban, the name of the country
this was primarily because I remember (whether accurately    should also be so constructed.  So, la lojbangug.	Or if
or not I don't know) that metaphors used to make CPXs in     that doesn't feel nice on the tongue, how about la
Loglan weren't required	to fit into any	specific pattern.    lojbangu'es or la lojbangu'en.
I therefore didn't try to do so.  I also tried to be aware	  I'd like to close with a few comments	about Kenneth
of the place structure of the words I used, and	when	     Clark's letter.  First, his aversion to ambiguity is not
filling	in the place structure would get at what I wanted    universally shared.  There	are times when ambiguity is
the word to mean, to list the gismu in my prospective tanru  exactly the right thing to	have in	an utterance.  And
in that	order.						     considering idioms, metaphors and cliches as the "first
     I therefore concur	on the word tadsmadycfi	for SF.	     step in the destruction of	a language" is just plain silly.
And your penpe'i or penpenmi look good to me for seminar."   Those things are what give	languages their	power and
As for the schwa/"r" hyphen question, I	guess I	mostly want  beauty.  Let me give you an example.
to not have too	long strings of	either vowels or		  I recently heard the president of Bell Atlantic say,
consonants.  (Did the word order in that last sentence	     "At Bell Atlantic,	we're more than	just talk."  This is
betray any of my PA Dutch heritage?  It	doesn't	look quite   obviously an ambiguous statement.	Idiomatically, it means
right to me, but I don't know why.)  I noticed the problem   that BA doesn't just talk about doing things, they	actually
more often with	"r" hyphens in the middle of consonant	     do	them.  That is the way such a statement	would normally
strings.						     be	interpreted.  However, the statement had been preceded
     When I tried translating the Lord's Prayer	into Loglan  by	a discussion of	the many aspects of BA's business,
about 10-11 years ago, I translated "daily bread" as "that   including leasing and computer repair.  The statement could

be taken as a summation	of that	discussion.  This ability	  tanru	have the place structure of the	last term of the
to have	a statement mean two quite different things and	to   set ALWAYS.  A lujvo can, and usually does, vary from this
have both of the meanings be intended is quite enthralling   in	some way.  In tanru, you can attach sumti to each of the
to me.							     tanru element brivla using	"be" and "bei",	which you
     If	Mr. Clark meant	to rail	against	unintended	     obviously cannot with lujvo.  Thus	a tanru	like sepli zbasu
ambiguity, I agree.  But if he meant it	the way	I took it,   has the place structure of	zbasu.	But, more completely the
I'm afraid he's	trying to do vascular surgery with an ax.    full bridi	translates as:
     Finally, his combative attitude on	the S-W	test
question was annoying.	Lambasting whoever mentioned it	     x1	<(apart-from y2) type-of (makes/builds)> x2 out	of x3
next because they didn't meet his imagined standards would
be counterproductive, as well as mean-spirited.	 If he has   where y2 is the 2nd place of sepli.  x2 is	obviously the
anything useful	to say about how to run	a study, he should   filter product, and x3 the	source material.  A similar
say it,	rather than pontificate	about everyone else.  After  tanru with	a different place structure (and therefore
all, "If you're	not part of the	solution, you're part of     emphasis) would be	sepri'a	(sepli rinka), or, emphasizing
the problem."						     the tool or apparatus nature as opposed to	the operator of
							     the equipment:  sepli rinka tutci,	sepli zbasu tutci, sepli
Bob's notes and	responses:				     rinka cabra, sepli	zbasu tutci.  All validly convey aspects
     Your note on The Lord's Prayer seems reasonable to	me.  of	'filter', though none convey the place structure you
My attempt aimed at a literal translation, partly to show    want.
just how complex the logical structure is, and partly to	  To clearly get such a	place structure, you need to
show some of the problems with Lojban translation.  We also  find a tanru for the concept you want to include, and add
wrote it in a couple of	hours during a windy picnic,	     that into the tanru, or as	a separate element of the lujvo,
without	really striving	for 'art'.  My main concern, of	     or	as a modal addition onto a place structure that	doesn't
course,	is that	religious and political	materials are so     include it.  I'll skip the	last for your example; it isn't
often controversial, that I wanted to minimize interjecting  necessary or efficient.  I	believe	that you want "klesi" in
my personal interpretations.  I	believe, by the	way, that    your tanru:  klesi	sepli zbasu (cabra), giving the	implicit
any valid translation of biblical materials must be from     place structure:  "x1 is a	<(category of y2 with property
the oldest sources, and	bearing	in mind	the cultures of	the  y3) (apart	from z2) type-of maker>	of x2 from x3".	 y3 is
biblical times.	 I by no means have the	expertise in either  the place I think you want, which may not necessarily be a
the languages or culture to attempt a scholarly	defensible   'fineness', but is	whatever property is being filtered out.
effort.								  To express this place	in a tanru is complicated and
     Your definition of	'white noise' is good, but I'm not   possibly confusing, but we	can choose to define the lujvo
sure that your tanru captures it - you omit the	critical     "klese'izba" as "x1 filters x2 from x3 on property	x4
feature	of 'equal' (which is a major distinction from	     (leaving x5 ?)".  This captures and condenses the complex
black-body radiation, which is a non-equal distribution).    tanru structure reasonably	effectively.  We could have this
White noise isn't of course exactly equal at all energies,   place structure on	the shorter lujvo, using the
although that is the goal; it also isn't necessarily (or     approximation and simplification properties allowed in
even usually) a	'sound'.  The nature of	any variations in    making lujvo from tanru that allow	us to drop out
white noise from equal distribution is based on	chance,	and  extraneous	terms if no conflict results.  I would leave the
this was the feature I used for	my tanru.  cunso conveys     extra term	in this	case, though.
the concept of 'chance'	as much	as of 'randomness'.		  This type of analysis	is what	we will	do in
Perhaps	I need cunso dunli se dirce. (I	should have	     formalizing dictionary-standard lujvo.  For 'nonce' lujvo,
included the "se" in my	original tanru;	without	it, you	     you can be	looser in your analysis, provided that the
have the white noise generator,	not the	radiation.)  Note    understanding of your listener is taken into consideration.
that slilu has frequency built into the	place structure	     (You can be looser	about place structures in conversation
     "ro" and other numbers/quantifiers	cannot directly	be   than in writing, for example, since your listener can
used in	tanru; the result, if grammatical, is one or more    always ask	about an uncertain place structure.)  tanru
sumti, and the quantifiers always have scope over the	     place structures are, however, sacrosanct.
entire tanru.  You can use quantifiers in lujvo, however,	  The language is a defining characteristic of
as if they worked in tanru.  Thus, ro te slilu dirce would   'Loglandia', so la	lojbangug. seems OK to me.  Better
be a sumti meaning "all	which are frequency radiating",	but  though, we	could simplify the source tanru	to lojbo gugde,
rolterslidi'e can mean "all-frequency radiation".  To use    leaving out the 'language'	as self	evident: la jbogug. or
quantifiers in tanru, you need a suffix	cmavo such as the    la	lobgug.	or la lo'ogug. (I prefer the first.)
cardinal suffix	"mei" or the ordinal suffix "moi", which     Alternatively, we can recognize that 'Loglandia' is not
turn the quantifier into the grammatical equivalent of a     really a place with a physical territory, and use "natmi"
brivla.	 Thus, a good compromise tanru (and lujvo) for	     instead of	"gugde", giving	possibilities such as la jbonat.
white noise might be te	slilu romei dunli se dirce, or	     or	la lobnat. or la lo'onat.  (Any	preference - they all
tersliroldu'i seldi'e -	note the suffix	cmavo can't be	     seem good to me?)	Of course, these are OK	when used within
retained in the	lujvo given our	current	rafsi set.	     the community that	knows the language - we	still need an
							     English cognate word for the normal usage,	which is in

simple English examples	for non-Lojbanists or new
Lojbanists.  The Lesson	1 enclosure has	my solution, which
pc liked as well:  'Lojbanistan'.  The name conveys an
exotic non-European nature while honoring the little seen
contribution of	Hindi/Urdu to Lojban.  My only concern was
based on the possibility that people would attach political
significance to	anything sounding like 'Afghanistan', given
events of the last 10 years (none is intended, of course).
I suspect that the connotations	of that	country	name are
both cultural and temporary.
     On	your last point, I agree that ambiguity	(semantic,
at least) and metaphor are vital and probably unavoidable
in a 'real' language.  Lojban offers the opportunity of
minimizing or possibly avoiding	such ambiguity WHEN
DESIRED, while retaining its availability when appropriate.
Lojban usage will strongly vary	among people.  Contrary	to
any implications in lei	lojbo, I am prone to using tanru,
sometimes colorful ones.  Nora,	on the other hand, avoids
using tanru or qualifies them, using "be" and "bei" to
specify	sumti wherever she can.	 Nora obviously	prefers	a
less ambiguous language.  There	is room	in Lojbanistan/la
jbonat.	for both points	of view.  The balance between
ambiguity and specificity that will evolve in Lojban usage
sounds like a great linguistics	research subject - showing
that Lojban's research usefulness is not limited to Sapir-

Till next issue: co'o lojbo