if the rule about no la or lai or doi in cmene didn't exist

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(I personally believe we should have abolished the nonsense about no la/lai/doi in cmene and just required a mandatory pause before as well as after in all settings.) --mi'e .mark.


I agree. Could we add a rule that says that names that begin in a glottal stop CAN contain la/lai/doi? --And Rosta

  • That wouldn't help. To take an example from the list, {la .dalais. .lamas.} could still be interpreted as {la da lai s. la mas.} because "s" and "mas" would not be required to begin with a glottal stop. --rab.spir
  • Yeah. That wouldn't be enough for the (putative) word-parser. It has to know where cmene begin. It knows they end at C., and searches back to find the beginning, which is either a pause or a la/lai/doi, whichever comes first. If we allow this, we'd force it always to search back to the pause, which, in the case of an "old-style" cmene, could be back at the start of the jufra. That is, .i mi'o tavla la lojban. could just as easily be one biiig cmene, .imi'otavlalalojban. The only way is to require that all cmene be preceded by a pause, everywhere. Me, I don't think that's such a hardship. I'd just train myself that the word la was pronounced with a glottal stop at the end (like the Klingon word la'/commander), and so it would always have a pause afterwards. Likewise lai and doi. hardliners ardliner though I be, I get the feeling that usage will probably bring this to pass. I've been involved in Lojban for a long time now, and I still see Lojbanists as experienced as I accidentally sticking illegal syllables into their cmene. The la/lai/doi rule probably will simply not survive. Hardliners might try to keep the "pause-before" rule to compensate, but that may be hard to instill. --mi'e mark.
    • I don't think it matters if it's hard to instil. No human brain will actually speak and hear according to the morphophonological rules, and the sounds people actually make don't matter all that much. Getting from actual speech sounds to a phonological representation is a pattern-matching exercise more suited to a neural net sort of thingo than to your ordinary linear algorithm. And Rosta
    • Probably true. In writing, even those who write their dots often forget to write them after mi'e for example. --mi'e xorxes
      • True and guilty as charged, but I don't think that's very damning. Just because a dot isn't written doesn't mean it isn't pronounced. I usually remember that a pause is required after mi'e even if I don't write it. Dots are optional reminders, not mandatory parts of the orthography, IMO. --mi'e mark
    • .i mi'o tavla la lojban doesn't make a whole lot of sense - did you mean .i mi'o tavla fo la lojban or .i mi'o tavla fi la lojban, by any chance?
      • fi la lojban. I misremembered the structure of tavla. I think I was thinking of casnu.
  • I also agree. I've been experimentally putting pauses after la, etc., and I find that it's easier to remember to pause after the word when I do. -- Adam

We've made some progress in that la/lai/doi are now allowed after a consonant. How about allowing them when the syllable is accented? If the la/lai/doi was really supposed to be a cmavo, it would either be unaccented or followed by a stop. --rab.spir No it wouldn't; cmene aren't brivla, so that rule doesn't apply.