du'au

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From jboske xelmri:

John:

> And Rosta scripsit:

>

> > What is the difference between an incomplete proposition like

> > "_ klama" or "_1 klama _2" and a property or relation like

> > "ce'u klama" and "ce'u klama ce'u"? I don't know. I don't know

> > whether there is a difference.

>

> If you mean "proposition" strictly, there isn't any. If you are using it

> as a synonym for "sentence", then it is the difference between a sentence

> expressing a relation and the relation itself. The latter is an abstract

> object, the former is a syntactic form.

Ergo, since I mean "proposition" strictly (I think), the interrogativoid,

qkau, variety of du'u abstraction -- call it du'u1 -- should be

expressible on the basis of the variety of du'u -- du'u2 -- that

expresses properties/relations/incomplete propositions.

1 {du'u2 ce'u broda} = x1 is the property of being broda

2 {du'u2 ce'u broda ce'u} = x1 is the broda relation

3 {du'u1 ce'u broda} = {du'u ma kau broda}

= x1 is a (true) completion to {du'u2 ce'u broda}

I conclude that {du'u1} and {du'u2} should be expressible by different

cmavo. {du'u1} is the one that deviates from current Lojban, so

would call for an experimental cmavo ({du'au}, say), if only in order

to allow for a lexicosyntactic form that is closer to logical form.

So how about when ce'u and qkau combine? E.g.

4 mi se cfila loi du'u ce'u prami ma kau

"Who I love is a flaw in me"

5 {mi se cfila loi du'au ce'u goi ko'a zo'u jetnu

fa lo'e du'u ce'u prami ko'a}

{du'au} has to be in NU because it must have its own prenex; a lujvo

wouldn't suffice.

I know I'm the only one who cares whether we can say (5), but

setting that aside, would you agree that (5) serves to express

explicitly the logical form that (4) is shorthand for?

--And.


xorxes:

> la and cusku di'e

>

> >1 {du'u2 ce'u broda} = x1 is the property of being broda

> >2 {du'u2 ce'u broda ce'u} = x1 is the broda relation

> >

> >3 {du'u1 ce'u broda} = {du'u ma kau broda}

> > = x1 is a (true) completion to {du'u2 ce'u broda}

> >

> >I conclude that {du'u1} and {du'u2} should be expressible by different

> >cmavo. {du'u1} is the one that deviates from current Lojban, so

> >would call for an experimental cmavo ({du'au}, say), if only in order

> >to allow for a lexicosyntactic form that is closer to logical form.

> >

> >So how about when ce'u and qkau combine? E.g.

> >

> >4 mi se cfila loi du'u ce'u prami ma kau

> > "Who I love is a flaw in me"

> >

> >5 {mi se cfila loi du'au ce'u goi ko'a zo'u jetnu

> > fa lo'e du'u ce'u prami ko'a}

>

> Don't you mean:

>

> mi se cfila loi du'u ce'u goi ko'a zo'u jetnu

> fa lo'e du'au ko'a prami ce'u

Maybe; my mind was boggling to a degree, & I when I wrote it I was

more than a little febrile with foodpoisoning from an antique carrot

that I foolishly ate out of an illjudged faith in the benignancy of

vegetables. Anyway, let me see...

I did mean it the way I said, but maybe your way round is better.

> The thing in x1 of jetnu has to be completion, not a property.

Hmm. A completion would be {lo'e du'u jetnu fa lo'e du'u ce'u

prami la djan}, which can mean in standard Lojban: "the property of

being such that it is true that one is broda".

Of course, as you noticed, in that reading, the ce'u belongs to

the outer bridi, not the inner. So that's a problem for my

version.

> The thing in x1 of cfila has to be a property, not a completion.

But the completion is a property. In standard {du'u ce'u broda makau},

each thing that is a du'u ce'u broda makau is of the form

{du'u ce'u broda la djan}.

> And thing in x2 of cfila has to be the one in x1 of prami, and the

> holder of the property in x1 of cfila.

Eh? Come again? Oh I see, I read that as "and the holder of the

property has to be in x1 of cfila", but you mean "x2 has to be the

holder of the property that is in x1 of cfila".

Okay. So the ce'u bound to x2 of cfila has to belong to the

outermost bridi in x1 of cfila.

So let's try it your way (with gadri switched).

mi se cfila lo'e du'u ce'u goi ko'a zo'u jetnu

fa loi du'au ko'a prami ce'u

A completion gives:

mi se cfila lo'e du'u ce'u goi ko'a zo'u jetnu

fa lo'e du'uu ko'a prami la djan

... which is exactly right. Fuck me. I've never known anybody

as on the ball as you. It's extraordinary. u'e cai. io cai.

--And.