Talk:controversial points in the morphology

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Posted by xorxes on Fri 11 of Feb., 2005 20:49 GMT posts: 1912

There are basically 5 issues I can think of that require heavy commenting. If people remember other stuff that needs to be dealt with please bring it up.

Issue1: Consonant clusters.

The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three consonants (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial clusters of up to four consonants, which are formed by a consonant followed by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla. In addition to that there is the crunchy cluster allowed in type-3 fuhivla only. In cmene there is no restriction beyond permissible pairs and no ntc, ndj, nts, ndz.

Issue2: Vowel clusters.

Currently, any number of non-y vowels are allowed in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene. Syllable breaks after ai, au, ei, oi, ia, ie, ii, io, iu, ua, ue, ui, uo, uu or a single vowel. Special cmavo: Cy, y'y, y = yy = yyy = yyyy = ... In cmene, y is allowed freely.

Issue3: Rafsi

All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final rafsi by adding 'y.

fu'ivla that start with a vowel add ' in front for non-initial rafsi: example mily'enri from milti .enri

Any fu'ivla that ends in a single vowel gets a short rafsi by dropping the final vowel and replacing with y if that doesn't create a conflict with normal lujvo.

cmene can have initial rafsi by adding -iy-

non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y

Issue4: CVC-y- and CVV-r/n- hyphens

These hyphens are allowed always. Officially they are allowed only when required (i.e. between an impermissible pair or to correct a tosmabru failure or to prevent CVV from falling off). RATIONALE: If one gets used to a lujvo like tosymabru, it is nice to be able to produce further formations like {naltosymabru} without having to remember to remove the hyphen in this case. If one gets used to the lujvo {li'erla'i}, it is a pain to remember that {nalyli'erla'i} is not a lujvo and one should use {nalyli'ela'i} instead. Allowing the hyphen always makes things easier for the user.

Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene

Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are required in some contexts already).

Comments please!

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:39 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > Issue1: Consonant clusters. > > The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three consonants > (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial clusters of up > to four consonants, which are formed by a consonant followed > by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla.

Erm, the tststswhateverthehell example had rather a lot more. What happened?

> In addition to that there is the crunchy cluster allowed in type-3 > fuhivla only. In cmene there is no restriction beyond permissible > pairs and no ntc, ndj, nts, ndz.

As I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see limitation to triples except, where syllabic consonants don't count.

I do not support aligning cmene with fu'ivla (or anything else) morphologically; we already fuck with people's names enough.

> Issue2: Vowel clusters. > > Currently, any number of non-y vowels are allowed in cmavo, > fu'ivla and cmene. Syllable breaks after ai, au, ei, oi, ia, ie, > ii, io, iu, ua, ue, ui, uo, uu or a single vowel.

I'm fine with that.

> Special cmavo: Cy, y'y, y = yy = yyy = yyyy = ...

I like this a lot (I think it's even my fault).

> In cmene, y is allowed freely.

+1


> Issue3: Rafsi > > All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final > rafsi by adding 'y.

s/have a/can be a/ ?

Did you mean {'y} there or {y}?

Can you give an example? How does one distinguish between fu'ivla lujvo and regular lujvo?

> fu'ivla that start with a vowel add ' in front for non-initial > rafsi: example mily'enri from milti .enri

Uh. That'll take some getting used to, to say the least.

> cmene can have initial rafsi by adding -iy-

Ditto.

> non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y

Very ditto.

What about final rafsi for cmavo?

> Issue4: CVC-y- and CVV-r/n- hyphens > > These hyphens are allowed always.

+1


> Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded > by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a > proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and require cmene to > always begin and end with a pause (as they are required in some > contexts already).

+1


I want to point out that in 10K words of LNC, much of which is conversation, I have ~200 instances of "la" and "coi", but over 700 instances of BY. If you consider pauses before and after words to be too onerous, I think you're not using the language very effectively WRT pro-sumti.

-Robin

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arjPosted by arj on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:39 GMT posts: 953

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote:

> Re: Controversial points in the morphology > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded by a > consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a proposal to > drop the restriction altogether, and require cmene to always begin and > end with a pause (as they are required in some contexts already).

Anything that decreases the fluency of speech is a big no-no in my book. I agree that the no doi-la-lai-la'i rule is obnoxious, but not as bad as it would be if we introduced a lot more pauses (the vast majority of cmevla would be in a name sumti and/or in a vocative anyway).

And I think that Robin would have much more trouble with using Vy. pro-sumti if he had to do so in speech. Besides, Vy. sumti are different from cmene under this proposal, in not having a mandatory pause *in the front*.

-- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Twinkle, twinkle little star I don't wonder what you are, For by spectroscopic ken, I know that you are hydrogen. --Ian Bush

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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:39 GMT posts: 1912

> > The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three consonants > > (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial clusters of up > > to four consonants, which are formed by a consonant followed > > by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla. > > Erm, the tststswhateverthehell example had rather a lot more. What > happened?

The PEG has evolved since then. :-)

> As I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see limitation to triples > except, where syllabic consonants don't count.

But triples is totally arbitrary. I don't like unsubstantiated restrictions.

> I do not support aligning cmene with fu'ivla (or anything else) > morphologically; we already fuck with people's names enough.

You always have la'o if you don't like to lojbanize.

I find it outrageous that {sktkplgntriktrptrsft.} is a valid name while {djeimz.} is not. What was the rationale for that again?

> > Issue3: Rafsi > > > > All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final > > rafsi by adding 'y. > > s/have a/can be a/ ? > > Did you mean {'y} there or {y}?

No, you do need the '.

> Can you give an example? How does one distinguish between fu'ivla > lujvo and regular lujvo?

For example:

fu'ivla: .iglu. initial rafsi: .iglu'y- gives for example .iglu'yxabju final rafsi: -'iglu gives for example bardy'iglu medial rafsi -'iglu'y- gives for example bardy'iglu'yxabju


> > non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y > > Very ditto. > > What about final rafsi for cmavo?

For CV cmavo, we could use the cmavo itself, but CVV cmavo would conflict with CVV rafsi, so cmavo can't be used in final position.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 11:11:09PM +0100, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > >Re: Controversial points in the morphology > > > >Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > >Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > >preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. > >There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and > >require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are > >required in some contexts already). > > Anything that decreases the fluency of speech is a big no-no in my > book.

Erm, you must be using a definition of "fluency" with which I am not previously familiar.

> I agree that the no doi-la-lai-la'i rule is obnoxious,

No no no.

The obnoxiousness is not the point, the point is that *no-one* has

  • ever* consistently gotten it right. I used "belas lugosis" the

other day, and I *never* *noticed*. I'm not aware of a single serious user of Lojban that has not messed this up at least once.

> but not as bad as it would be if we introduced a lot more pauses > (the vast majority of cmevla would be in a name sumti and/or in a > vocative anyway).

I *utterly* disagree. I think this is one of the biggest warts on the language. It's worse than SA.

> And I think that Robin would have much more trouble with using Vy. > pro-sumti if he had to do so in speech. Besides, Vy. sumti are > different from cmene under this proposal, in not having a > mandatory pause *in the front*.

Yes, that was my *point*. If mandatory pauses in the front are bothering your, use cmene less.

-Robin

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:19:13PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three > > > consonants (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial > > > clusters of up to four consonants, which are formed by a > > > consonant followed by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla. > > > > Erm, the tststswhateverthehell example had rather a lot more. > > What happened? > > The PEG has evolved since then. :-)

So you've limited things to four consonants?

> > As I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see limitation to triples > > except, where syllabic consonants don't count. > > But triples is totally arbitrary. I don't like unsubstantiated > restrictions.

And 4 is less arbitrary than three becaaaaause...?

> I find it outrageous that {sktkplgntriktrptrsft.} is a valid name > while {djeimz.} is not. What was the rationale for that again?

The hell should I know?

-Robin

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arjPosted by arj on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 953

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Robin Lee Powell wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 11:11:09PM +0100, Arnt Richard Johansen > wrote: >> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: >> >>> Re: Controversial points in the morphology >>> >>> Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene >>> >>> Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless >>> preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. >>> There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and >>> require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are >>> required in some contexts already). >> >> Anything that decreases the fluency of speech is a big no-no in my >> book. > > Erm, you must be using a definition of "fluency" with which I am not > previously familiar.

Yes, sorry. I actually meant something like "fluidity", or maybe "continuity".

>> I agree that the no doi-la-lai-la'i rule is obnoxious, > > No no no. > > The obnoxiousness is not the point, the point is that *no-one* has > *ever* consistently gotten it right. I used "belas lugosis" the > other day, and I *never* *noticed*. I'm not aware of a single > serious user of Lojban that has not messed this up at least once.

That is a good point, but not absolutely decisive. People screw up on all kinds of things in Lojban that differs from natlangs.

>> but not as bad as it would be if we introduced a lot more pauses >> (the vast majority of cmevla would be in a name sumti and/or in a >> vocative anyway). > > I *utterly* disagree. I think this is one of the biggest warts on > the language. It's worse than SA.

Are you arguing that we should change the language in order to increase its *elegance*? I thought we had agreed that formal beauty should not be a sufficient criterion to change things, at least something that would force people to un-learn something. And if this change is enacted, it *will* force people to change their habits of pronunciation.

>> And I think that Robin would have much more trouble with using Vy. >> pro-sumti if he had to do so in speech. Besides, Vy. sumti are >> different from cmene under this proposal, in not having a >> mandatory pause *in the front*. > > Yes, that was my *point*. If mandatory pauses in the front are > bothering your, use cmene less.

On the contrary, I would like to continue to use cmevla as much as I do now. Your proposal would make this more difficult.

-- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Twinkle, twinkle little star I don't wonder what you are, For by spectroscopic ken, I know that you are hydrogen. --Ian Bush

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arjPosted by arj on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 953

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Jorge Llambas wrote:

> I find it outrageous that {sktkplgntriktrptrsft.} is a valid > name while {djeimz.} is not. What was the rationale for that > again?

It is because JCB found out that /mz/ could not reliably be distinguished from /nz/. Why /mz/ was outlawed instead of /nz/ I suppose we'll never know.

-- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Twinkle, twinkle little star I don't wonder what you are, For by spectroscopic ken, I know that you are hydrogen. --Ian Bush

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 11:31:23PM +0100, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 11:11:09PM +0100, Arnt Richard Johansen > >wrote: > >>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > >>I agree that the no doi-la-lai-la'i rule is obnoxious, > > > >No no no. > > > >The obnoxiousness is not the point, the point is that *no-one* > >has *ever* consistently gotten it right. I used "belas lugosis" > >the other day, and I *never* *noticed*. I'm not aware of a > >single serious user of Lojban that has not messed this up at > >least once. > > That is a good point, but not absolutely decisive. People screw up > on all kinds of things in Lojban that differs from natlangs.

  • Semantically*, yes. *Grammatically*, yes. This is the *only*
  • syntactic* element that I'm aware of in the *basic* language that

no-one I know has internalized.

Sure, there are syntactic elements of fu'ivla that no-one but Pierre has internalized, but we're talking about *names*, FFS! If after a decade there is a basic syntactic rule for a basic function of the language that no-one gets right, I'd say we have a problem, wouldn't you?

> >>but not as bad as it would be if we introduced a lot more pauses > >>(the vast majority of cmevla would be in a name sumti and/or in > >>a vocative anyway). > > > >I *utterly* disagree. I think this is one of the biggest warts > >on the language. It's worse than SA. > > Are you arguing that we should change the language in order to > increase its *elegance*?

Elegance? I think the language approaches *uselessness* in this aspect. I think the language is obviously *broken* because of this rule. Elegance never entered into it.

> >>And I think that Robin would have much more trouble with using > >>Vy. pro-sumti if he had to do so in speech. Besides, Vy. sumti > >>are different from cmene under this proposal, in not having a > >>mandatory pause *in the front*. > > > >Yes, that was my *point*. If mandatory pauses in the front are > >bothering your, use cmene less. > > On the contrary, I would like to continue to use cmevla as much as > I do now. Your proposal would make this more difficult.

I think this is a mistake on your part, but I acknowledge your preference.

-Robin

-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 1912

> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:19:13PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > The PEG has evolved since then. :-) > > So you've limited things to four consonants?

In effect, yes (excepting cmene and type-3 fu'ivla). But what actually did is limit clusters to a single consonant plus an initial cluster, which ends up being a maximum of four consonants.

The initial cluster is not _arbitrarily_ 3 consonants long either. I use practically the same old rules with a minor new restriction. The limitation ends up being three consonants because I don't allow a consonant after an affricate initially (affricates are tc, ts, dj and dz). It makes little sense to forbid initial {tl} but allow initial {tsl} for example.

> > > As I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see limitation to triples > > > except, where syllabic consonants don't count. > > > > But triples is totally arbitrary. I don't like unsubstantiated > > restrictions. > > And 4 is less arbitrary than three becaaaaause...?

See above. It's not any four that are allowed either.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 1912

> On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > > I find it outrageous that {sktkplgntriktrptrsft.} is a valid > > name while {djeimz.} is not. What was the rationale for that > > again? > > It is because JCB found out that /mz/ could not reliably be distinguished > from /nz/. Why /mz/ was outlawed instead of /nz/ I suppose we'll never > know.

Right, but is it really more difficult to distinguish mz form nz than for example tststs from tstst?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:55:33PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 02:19:13PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > > > The PEG has evolved since then. :-) > > > > So you've limited things to four consonants? > > In effect, yes (excepting cmene and type-3 fu'ivla). But what > actually did is limit clusters to a single consonant plus an > initial cluster, which ends up being a maximum of four consonants.

You don't give any reason for this, just explanation of how it works.

> > > > As I've said elsewhere, I'd like to see limitation to > > > > triples except, where syllabic consonants don't count. > > > > > > But triples is totally arbitrary. I don't like unsubstantiated > > > restrictions. > > > > And 4 is less arbitrary than three becaaaaause...? > > See above. It's not any four that are allowed either.

Still looks pretty arbitrary.

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 00:40 GMT posts: 1912

> But what > > actually did is limit clusters to a single consonant plus an > > initial cluster, which ends up being a maximum of four consonants. > > You don't give any reason for this, just explanation of how it > works.

Syllables start with a permissible initial cluster.

>From any cluster, any final group that is a permissible initial can be the start of a syllable. The rest must be part of the preceding syllable.

A single consonant at the end of a syllable is manageable. Lujvo never need have more than a single consonant at the end of a syllable with these definitions. We can then extend this restriction to fu'ivla: allow a consonant folowed by an initial cluster.

There are other possibilities of course. For example l/m/n/r + consonant is not so hard at the end of a syllable, but I prefer limiting it to one because the rule is simpler and that's what happens in lujvo.

The additional restriction for initial clusters (no consonant after affricates) is also reasonable, I think.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 01:58 GMT

On Friday 11 February 2005 15:49, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: Controversial points in the morphology > > There are basically 5 issues I can think of that require heavy commenting. > If people remember other stuff that needs to be dealt with please bring it > up. > > Issue1: Consonant clusters. > > The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three consonants > (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial clusters of up > to four consonants, which are formed by a consonant followed > by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla. In addition to that there > is the crunchy cluster allowed in type-3 fuhivla only. In cmene > there is no restriction beyond permissible pairs and no ntc, ndj, > nts, ndz.

I don't think type-3 fu'ivla should have any different clusters than type-4. That would mean that {turnstile} is valid but {turlstile} is not.

> Issue2: Vowel clusters. > > Currently, any number of non-y vowels are allowed in cmavo, fu'ivla and > cmene. Syllable breaks after ai, au, ei, oi, ia, ie, ii, io, iu, ua, ue, > ui, uo, uu or a single vowel. Special cmavo: Cy, y'y, y = yy = yyy = yyyy = > ... In cmene, y is allowed freely.

valfendi allows no more than two vowels without an apostrophe. I'm not sure why that is, but no experimental cmavo in the Book with more than two vowels has no apostrophe.

> Issue3: Rafsi > > All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final rafsi by > adding 'y.

Any rafsi formation that adds an extra syllable is unnecessary. We have {zei}.

> fu'ivla that start with a vowel add ' in front for non-initial rafsi: > example mily'enri from milti .enri > > Any fu'ivla that ends in a single vowel gets a short rafsi by dropping the > final vowel and replacing with y if that doesn't create a conflict with > normal lujvo.

The last criterion needs to be spelled out. The PEG has a criterion, and valfendi has a criterion, and we need to prove that they define the same set.

> cmene can have initial rafsi by adding -iy-

Can't do that. Cmene don't need to have a consonant cluster, and they can begin with non-initial consonant clusters, so a fu'ivla beginning with a cmene like that would be unlexable.

> non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y

We have {zei}.

> Issue4: CVC-y- and CVV-r/n- hyphens > > These hyphens are allowed always. Officially they are allowed only when > required (i.e. between an impermissible pair or to correct a tosmabru > failure or to prevent CVV from falling off). RATIONALE: If one gets used to > a lujvo like tosymabru, it is nice to be able to produce further formations > like {naltosymabru} without having to remember to remove the hyphen in this > case. If one gets used to the lujvo {li'erla'i}, it is a pain to remember > that {nalyli'erla'i} is not a lujvo and one should use {nalyli'ela'i} > instead. Allowing the hyphen always makes things easier for the user.

I agree.

> Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded by a > consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a proposal to drop > the restriction altogether, and require cmene to always begin and end with > a pause (as they are required in some contexts already).

I disagree, though I don't right now remember why.

phma -- Sans lunettes, je ne distingue même pas les odeurs... -Les Perles de la médecine

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Posted by Anonymous on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 01:58 GMT

On Friday 11 February 2005 15:49, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: Controversial points in the morphology > > There are basically 5 issues I can think of that require heavy commenting. > If people remember other stuff that needs to be dealt with please bring it > up. > > Issue1: Consonant clusters. > > The current PEG allows initial clusters of up to three consonants > (spr, ckl, jgl, zdr and the like) and non-initial clusters of up > to four consonants, which are formed by a consonant followed > by an initial cluster. That's for fuhivla. In addition to that there > is the crunchy cluster allowed in type-3 fuhivla only. In cmene > there is no restriction beyond permissible pairs and no ntc, ndj, > nts, ndz.

I don't think type-3 fu'ivla should have any different clusters than type-4. That would mean that {turnstile} is valid but {turlstile} is not.

> Issue2: Vowel clusters. > > Currently, any number of non-y vowels are allowed in cmavo, fu'ivla and > cmene. Syllable breaks after ai, au, ei, oi, ia, ie, ii, io, iu, ua, ue, > ui, uo, uu or a single vowel. Special cmavo: Cy, y'y, y = yy = yyy = yyyy = > ... In cmene, y is allowed freely.

valfendi allows no more than two vowels without an apostrophe. I'm not sure why that is, but no experimental cmavo in the Book with more than two vowels has no apostrophe.

> Issue3: Rafsi > > All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final rafsi by > adding 'y.

Any rafsi formation that adds an extra syllable is unnecessary. We have {zei}.

> fu'ivla that start with a vowel add ' in front for non-initial rafsi: > example mily'enri from milti .enri > > Any fu'ivla that ends in a single vowel gets a short rafsi by dropping the > final vowel and replacing with y if that doesn't create a conflict with > normal lujvo.

The last criterion needs to be spelled out. The PEG has a criterion, and valfendi has a criterion, and we need to prove that they define the same set.

> cmene can have initial rafsi by adding -iy-

Can't do that. Cmene don't need to have a consonant cluster, and they can begin with non-initial consonant clusters, so a fu'ivla beginning with a cmene like that would be unlexable.

> non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y

We have {zei}.

> Issue4: CVC-y- and CVV-r/n- hyphens > > These hyphens are allowed always. Officially they are allowed only when > required (i.e. between an impermissible pair or to correct a tosmabru > failure or to prevent CVV from falling off). RATIONALE: If one gets used to > a lujvo like tosymabru, it is nice to be able to produce further formations > like {naltosymabru} without having to remember to remove the hyphen in this > case. If one gets used to the lujvo {li'erla'i}, it is a pain to remember > that {nalyli'erla'i} is not a lujvo and one should use {nalyli'ela'i} > instead. Allowing the hyphen always makes things easier for the user.

I agree.

> Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded by a > consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a proposal to drop > the restriction altogether, and require cmene to always begin and end with > a pause (as they are required in some contexts already).

I disagree, though I don't right now remember why.

phma -- Sans lunettes, je ne distingue même pas les odeurs... -Les Perles de la médecine

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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 17:04 GMT posts: 1912

> I don't think type-3 fu'ivla should have any different clusters than type-4. > That would mean that {turnstile} is valid but {turlstile} is not.

I tend to agree.

With the current PEG, both are valid anyway because it doesn't distinguish between r/n/l, so it allows a bit more than type-3: it also allows similar forms with pseudo-hyphen.

But it won't allow truturnstile for example, because the crunchy bit is not in type-3 position.

> > Issue2: Vowel clusters. > > > > Currently, any number of non-y vowels are allowed in cmavo, fu'ivla and > > cmene. Syllable breaks after ai, au, ei, oi, ia, ie, ii, io, iu, ua, ue, > > ui, uo, uu or a single vowel. Special cmavo: Cy, y'y, y = yy = yyy = yyyy = > > ... In cmene, y is allowed freely. > > valfendi allows no more than two vowels without an apostrophe. I'm not sure > why that is, but no experimental cmavo in the Book with more than two vowels > has no apostrophe.

But doesn't it allow more than that in cmene? What about in fu'ivla?

I'm not convinced one way or the other about vowels yet. It doesn't seem right to allow fu'ivla like {priiiiiiiiiika} (currently allowed, and syllabified as prii,ii,ii,ii,ii,ka), but I'm not sure what the right balance between restrictiveness and permissiveness is for vowels. In any case, I would like the same rule to apply to all cmene, fu'ivla and cmavo.

> > Issue3: Rafsi > > > > All fu'ivla can be used as final rafsi, and all have a non-final rafsi by > > adding 'y. > > Any rafsi formation that adds an extra syllable is unnecessary. We have > {zei}.

{'y} allows shorter lujvo in some cases: {.iglu'ypre} vs {.iglu zei prenu} for example.

Besides, {.iglu zei prenu} is semantically one word but morphologically three words. zei-lujvo are unsatisfying for that reason.

> > Any fu'ivla that ends in a single vowel gets a short rafsi by dropping the > > final vowel and replacing with y if that doesn't create a conflict with > > normal lujvo. > > The last criterion needs to be spelled out. The PEG has a criterion, and > valfendi has a criterion, and we need to prove that they define the same set.

I will try to spell the rules out in more detail in another post.

> > cmene can have initial rafsi by adding -iy- > > Can't do that. Cmene don't need to have a consonant cluster, and they can > begin with non-initial consonant clusters, so a fu'ivla beginning with a > cmene like that would be unlexable.

What do you mean by unlexable here? It causes no ambiguity.

The issue of y and cmene is a bit more complex than what I wrote there though. My idea is that "y" (except in the special cmavo Cy, y'y and y) will _always_ be a hyphen. Even a cmene containing y could be understood as a hyphened name. (That doesn't really change anything because cmene don't really carry meaning explicitly, so it makes little difference if you picture the cmene {maiky'elsem} as a simple name or as a hyphened-name with components {maik} and {.elsem}.)

Another thing is that y would not be distinctive at the beginning of a name, so every name could add or drop an initial y without changing the name: .djan. = .ydjan. This way, a glottal stop at the beginning of a name becomes less troublesome, and this y can also be thought of as the hesitation y, which this way can now come before any word without need to be followed by a pause.

> > non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y > > We have {zei}.

Yes, but again, that breaks down the connection between semantic and morphological words, and sometimes 'y does save syllables too.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by xorxes on Sat 12 of Feb., 2005 18:25 GMT posts: 1912

All fu'ivla (and in fact all brivla) can be used as final rafsi unchnged (or adding ' if it starts with a vowel) and also have the general non-final brivla-rafsi obtained by adding {'y} at the end.

In addition to that, some fu'ivla can have a shorter non-final rafsi by changing the final vowel to y, as long as this doesn't cause conflicts with lujvo. The rule is that a fu'ivla has a short rafsi if and only if:

1- it ends in CV,

2- it does not consist of a string of rafsi (CCV, CVV(r/n), CVC) plus CVCV, and

3- it does not consist of a consonant followed by a string of rafsi (CCV, CVV(r/n), CVC) plus CVCV.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by xorxes on Tue 15 of Feb., 2005 14:55 GMT posts: 1912

> Various comments in no particular order.

ki'e noras

> If we vote in the Morphology Algorithm, we are agreeing to the setting of > what the valid word-forms are. It is obvious that fu'ivla forms and cmavo > forms have changed, but nowhere is there a reasonbly concise statement of > what the new forms are.

Nothing is definite yet. In particular, vowel clusters and consonant clusters are under discussion.

> The "algorithm" is program code. One usually checks a program against the > desired results to see if it works. We have no statement of the desired > results. I can't read the code without more explanation. For example : "& > indicates that the element to the right must follow" [follow what? it's at > the beginning - example: BU element itself" the thing to the right of the &, I presume "does not > absorb anything" what does this mean?.

The PEG is a formal grammar, like EBNF.

"BU Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we just added things like "sia" /sya/ and > "rua" /rwa/ to the CVV space?

Those are currently allowed by the PEG, yes. It is yet under discussion whether they should be allowed or not.

> In making Lojban, we made a deliberate > decision to exclude these (which were present in Loglan) for 2 > reasons. Some of them are too hard to say ("rui"), especially as a single > syllable. Some, like "sia", tend to degenerate into other sound sequences > (as English "sion" endings are now pronounced "shun").

OK, then they should be disallowed everywhere, right? If they are hard to say or distinguish in cmavo they are equally hard to say or distinguish in cmene and fu'ivla. And in fact, allowing them in cmavo causes less problems because it is unlikely that more than a few cmavo will ever be added to the language, whereas cmene and fu'ivla are much more productive. For example, the name "Colombia" would be lojbanized as {kolombi'as} if the sequence {bia} was disallowed.

> What are the valid fu'ivla forms? It looks to me like "jritata" is valid > (initial cluster OK, passes slinku'i test, doesn't break up into gismu > and/or rafsi). So, given "All fu'ivla can be used as final > rafsi", "prijritata" is no longer a valid fu'ivla because it is > "pri"+jritata", right?

Extended rafsi can only be connected with y-hyphens. This was the case for the CLL proposal too. {prina zei jritata} can only be reduced to {prinyjitrata}. {prijitrata} remains a separate fu'ivla.

> Also, we need to revise "slinku'i" itself a bit if r-hyphens are allowed > when not required. We have a valid lujvo "li'erla'i" (li'e + r + > la'i). If we allow someone to add an affix on the front without removing > the "r" ("tos + li'e + r + la'i), we then need to disallow a potential > fu'ivla "sli'erla'i" (originally OK - good initial cluster, doesn't break > down into rafsi and/or gismu, used to pass to+sli'erla'i "slinku'i" test > but now will not).

Yes. The rule for slinku'i is not that complicated though:

slinkuhi Making fu'ivla is a mine-field.

Indeed it is.

> In the presentation on Controversial topics, it looks like fu'ivla initial > clusters disallow sx (good!) - but not cx?

"cx" is for some reason disallowed anywhere, so it need not be disallowed again as an initial cluster:

c "jl", "jr" "zl", "zr" are allowed?

That's a bug. Fixed.

> "jk"?

voiced-unvoiced disallowed everywhere:

j If "non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y", then are we > removing the restriction that there must be a consonant cluster in the > first 5 non-'-non-y letters? "oi'ycai'ylujvo".

Yes.

> How do they attach on > the left if they're vowel-initial - eg: klama + o + sutra = klamywhatsutra?

klamy'o'ysutra

Anything that starts with .V changes to 'V for non-initial rafsi.

> "cmene can have inital rafsi by adding iy". Can names have "iy" > internally, or is that disallowed like la/lai/la'i/doi?

They can. Names with internal iy (or even plain y) can be thought of as hyphenated names if so desired: {sanxiyn} could be thought of as Sanx-N. It doesn't matter much because names don't have internal semantics, but it doesn't hurt to think of them that way either.

> Must the name be > entirely unstressed if it doesn't have the penultimate syllable? I don't > think it causes a problem, but I'm not yet sure.

It doesn't matter. {iy} plays basically the same role as the final pause in cmene, so stress remains irrelevant.

> I notice there are 2 things that are being allowed to have rafsi by > following them by 'y: cmavo and fu'ivla.

In fact any brivla not just fu'ivla. The only exception being lujvo that end in -yCVV. Probably klama'y- won't be much used given the availability of klamy- and kla, but maybe in a context where one needs to be very clear it could be useful.

(I'm considering adding final rafsi for cmavo too, by preceding with an r-hyphen.)

> Does this cause a problem? Take > for example stura gismu + o'a cmavo + klama gismu. This would be, > stura'o'a'yklama (note: here, I'm presuming that the vowel-initial cmavo > will attach to the left using ', as vowel-initial fu'ivla do).

It would be {stury'o'a'yklama}

> But, might > "stura'o'a'yklama" instead break down as stura'o'a fu'ivla + klama?

That's the only possible break.

> Or > is stura'o'a not a valid fu'ivla because it could break down into stura + ' > + o'a when in front of something else (oh boy - another test for > fu'ivla)? Which has precedence?

There is always a "y" separating extended rafsi on both sides.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:03 GMT posts: 1912

> My version of the algorithm (and I still haven't made a proper regression > test) doesn't allow {critata} or {skalduna} to be used as a rafsi fu'ivla > anywhere. As I understand xorxes' version, {critata} can be used only in > final position and {skalduna} can be used only medially and finally, but I > haven't examined it.

Both {skalduna} and {critata} (like every fu'ivla) can be used in final position.

Both {skalduna'y-} and {critata'y-} (like for every fu'ivla) can be used in non-final position.

{skalduny-} fails slinku'i: {le skaldunyna'a} = les-kal-dun-na'a, so it cannot be used as a rafsi for {skalduna}.

{critaty-} is {cirko zei tatru zei}, so cannot be used as a rafsi for {critata}.

> > Also, we need to revise "slinku'i" itself a bit if r-hyphens are allowed > > when not required. We have a valid lujvo "li'erla'i" (li'e + r + > > la'i). If we allow someone to add an affix on the front without removing > > the "r" ("tos + li'e + r + la'i), we then need to disallow a potential > > fu'ivla "sli'erla'i" (originally OK - good initial cluster, doesn't break > > down into rafsi and/or gismu, used to pass to+sli'erla'i "slinku'i" test > > but now will not). Making fu'ivla is a mine-field. > > Hmm...

Allowing r-hyphens after any CVV rafsi encroaches on fu'ivla space, that is known. (The y rafsi after CVC has no effect on fu'ivla on the other hand.) This minor encroachment however is worth the simplification this brings to the user. Normal lujvo have always had priority over fu'ivla anyway.

> > If "non-y cmavo can have non-final rafsi by adding 'y", then are we > > removing the restriction that there must be a consonant cluster in the > > first 5 non-'-non-y letters? "oi'ycai'ylujvo". How do they attach on > > the left if they're vowel-initial - eg: klama + o + sutra = > > klamywhatsutra? > > I think making rafsi from cmavo like this is crazy.

Why? We already allow several cmavo to have rafsi, and sometimes just the one you need happens not to have a rafsi... If they don't prove useful they won't be used, but as long as they are not harmful, why not allow them?

> > "cmene can have inital rafsi by adding iy". Can names have "iy" > > internally, or is that disallowed like la/lai/la'i/doi? Must the name be > > entirely unstressed if it doesn't have the penultimate syllable? I don't > > think it causes a problem, but I'm not yet sure. > > This too is crazy. {uiliym} has "iy", and it has no consonant cluster, so > {uiliymiytavla} is not a word and would parse wrong.

In PEG it should parse correctly. Any number of iy are allowed in cmene. You can think of {uiliym} as a hyphened name "Will-M", or not, according to your taste.

> Cmene lujvo aren't > nearly common enough to make this rule for them; the only one that comes to > mind is {ctelr zei xasybakni}, which could just as well be called {xasybakni > la ctelr}.

That would be {ctelriyxasybakni}.

> Both > the PEG and valfendi should have the same set of valid words, so if a set of > words can't be implemented in both methods easily, it's wrong.

I don't think you will have much trouble implementing extended rafsi, as they are very regular and easy to recognize. I agree it is a very good thing to run the set of test words through both parsers so that there's less of a chance we are forgetting something.

> This doesn't > mean that they'll accept the same set of speech streams; corner cases like > {lekybumoi} can produce different output.

Ideally there would be one official rule for every case, including corner cases. Each parser can then have special settings for deviations for whatever reason, but the official rule would be just one.

In this case, {lekybumoi} is either a non-lojban word or it is {le ky bu moi}, depending on whether we require officially that every Cy cmavo must always be followed by a pause or only when necessary. I prefer the latter, and that's what PEG does now, but it could be done the other way too.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:04 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:28:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > wrote: > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > > preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. > > There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and > > require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are > > required in some contexts already). > > +1

It seems to me that we could have our cake and eat it too.

I don't see anything that prevents us from saying that cmene:

Begin with a pause.

IOR

Do not contain la/doi/whatever.

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:04 GMT posts: 1912

> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:28:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > > wrote: > > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > > > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > > > preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. > > > There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and > > > require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are > > > required in some contexts already). > > > > +1 > > It seems to me that we could have our cake and eat it too. > > I don't see anything that prevents us from saying that cmene: > > Begin with a pause. > > IOR > > Do not contain la/doi/whatever.

How would {la .lasis. broda} parse?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:04 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 01:55:02PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:28:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell > > wrote: > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, > > > wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > > > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > > > > > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > > > > preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or > > > > apostrophe. There is a proposal to drop the restriction > > > > altogether, and require cmene to always begin and end with a > > > > pause (as they are required in some contexts already). > > > > > > +1 > > > > It seems to me that we could have our cake and eat it too. > > > > I don't see anything that prevents us from saying that cmene: > > > > Begin with a pause. > > > > IOR > > > > Do not contain la/doi/whatever. > > How would {la .lasis. broda} parse?

As LA CMENE BRIVLA. That's the goal, anyways.

I'm assuming you see a problem, but I don't.

-Robin

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Posted by noras on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:04 GMT posts: 23

At 01:44 PM 2/15/05 -0800, Robin wrote: >On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:28:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > > wrote: > > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > > > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > > > preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. > > > There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and > > > require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they are > > > required in some contexts already). > > > > +1 > >It seems to me that we could have our cake and eat it too. > >I don't see anything that prevents us from saying that cmene: > >Begin with a pause. > >IOR > >Do not contain la/doi/whatever. > >-Robin

I don't see what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that the speaker can decide to use whichever rule he/she likes - EITHER begin with a pause OR not contain la/doi/whatever (OR both, of course)? If so, this will not work. Suppose I decide (as I would) to use the "not contain ..." option (where, presumably, I would not need to pause). I then say "coi .i mi klama la virgini'as." as /coi .imiKLAmalavirGIni'as./. The hearer, however, prefers the "begins with a pause" version (that can, presumably, contain "la") and parses it "coi NAME" where NAME=.imiklamalavirgini'as.


-- mi'e noras noras@cox.net Nora LeChevalier

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Posted by Anonymous on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 01:04 GMT

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 15:20, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > Both {skalduna} and {critata} (like every fu'ivla) can be used > in final position. > > Both {skalduna'y-} and {critata'y-} (like for every fu'ivla) can > be used in non-final position. > > {skalduny-} fails slinku'i: {le skaldunyna'a} = les-kal-dun-na'a, > so it cannot be used as a rafsi for {skalduna}.

But what about {sicyskaldunybau}?

> > > "cmene can have inital rafsi by adding iy". Can names have "iy" > > > internally, or is that disallowed like la/lai/la'i/doi? Must the name > > > be entirely unstressed if it doesn't have the penultimate syllable? I > > > don't think it causes a problem, but I'm not yet sure. > > > > This too is crazy. {uiliym} has "iy", and it has no consonant cluster, so > > {uiliymiytavla} is not a word and would parse wrong. > > In PEG it should parse correctly. Any number of iy are allowed > in cmene. You can think of {uiliym} as a hyphened name "Will-M", > or not, according to your taste.

How would you lex this?: /lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMINiytca/

> In this case, {lekybumoi} is either a non-lojban word or > it is {le ky bu moi}, depending on whether we require officially > that every Cy cmavo must always be followed by a pause or only > when necessary. I prefer the latter, and that's what PEG does now, > but it could be done the other way too.

What is necessary depends on the method - valfendi requires a pause between Cy and the following word that has CVV, CV'V, or CCV in it, unless that word is a cmegadri followed by a cmevla or a cmevla preceded by a cmegadri, in which case the cmegadri is broken off on both sides. Me, if the Cy is followed by {bu}, I put the pause after {bu}.

phma -- ..i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do ..ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga ..icu'u la ma'atman.

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 08:09:18PM -0500, Nora LeChevalier wrote: > At 01:44 PM 2/15/05 -0800, Robin wrote: > >On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 01:28:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, > >> wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > >> > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > >> > > >> > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless > >> > preceded by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. > >> > There is a proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and > >> > require cmene to always begin and end with a pause (as they > >> > are required in some contexts already). > >> > >> +1 > > > >It seems to me that we could have our cake and eat it too. > > > >I don't see anything that prevents us from saying that cmene: > > > >Begin with a pause. > > > >IOR > > > >Do not contain la/doi/whatever. > > I don't see what you're trying to say here.

It doesn't matter; it won't work. :-/

> Are you saying that the speaker can decide to use whichever rule > he/she likes - EITHER begin with a pause OR not contain > la/doi/whatever (OR both, of course)? If so, this will not work.

See. :-)

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 1912

> > {skalduny-} fails slinku'i: {le skaldunyna'a} = les-kal-dun-na'a, > > so it cannot be used as a rafsi for {skalduna}. > > But what about {sicyskaldunybau}?

Currently, if it fails slinku'i (or "slinkujy" as I called it at some point) it cannot be used anywhere, although you are right it would not cause problems there.

> How would you lex this?: > /lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMINiytca/

Hmm... as a single brivla.

More problematic would have been if you had thrown in a {la} in there.

Of course, {lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMIN.} is a valid cmene, so there's not much we can do about it. You still need a pause at the beginning of a cmene to separate it from other words, even when it is in rafsi form.

I think one can come up with strange results using the doi-la-lai-la'i rule though.

> > In this case, {lekybumoi} is either a non-lojban word or > > it is {le ky bu moi}, depending on whether we require officially > > that every Cy cmavo must always be followed by a pause or only > > when necessary. I prefer the latter, and that's what PEG does now, > > but it could be done the other way too. > > What is necessary depends on the method -

I meant necessary for unambiguity.

>valfendi requires a pause between > Cy > and the following word that has CVV, CV'V, or CCV in it, unless that word is > a cmegadri followed by a cmevla or a cmevla preceded by a cmegadri, in which > case the cmegadri is broken off on both sides.

But those are not all the cases that don't cause problems, so it's a relatively more arbitrary choice.

> Me, if the Cy is followed by > {bu}, I put the pause after {bu}.

That's a good style rule. But what should the official rule be?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:18, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > --- Pierre Abbat wrote: > > How would you lex this?: > > /lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMINiytca/ > > Hmm... as a single brivla.

I was thinking {lo babariyxantyzma ba bariygarnygri le xotciminiytca}.

> More problematic would have been if you had thrown in a {la} in there. > > Of course, {lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMIN.} is a valid > cmene, so there's not much we can do about it. You still need a pause > at the beginning of a cmene to separate it from other words, even when > it is in rafsi form.

So you're making a class of brivla that require a pause and that don't necessarily have a consonant cluster in the first five letters (or first two syllaboids, if it's changed to that). This is too big a change for me to agree with it.

phma -- 1 m = 3*3*5*7*47*44351/73/293339 * Cs133

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 1912

> On Tuesday 15 February 2005 20:18, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > > --- Pierre Abbat wrote: > > > How would you lex this?: > > > /lobabariyXANtyzmababariyGARnygrilexotciMINiytca/ > > > > Hmm... as a single brivla. > > I was thinking {lo babariyxantyzma ba bariygarnygri le xotciminiytca}.

But then how would we distinguish from {lo ba bariyxantyzma} or {lo ba ba riyxantizma}?

> So you're making a class of brivla that require a pause

brivla that start with a vowel require a pause, too, becasue initial vowel always must start with a pause. Similarly, cmene always must start with a pause (unless preceded by doi/la/lai/la'i). Otherwise cmavo forms and brivla forms would fall off.

> and that don't > necessarily have a consonant cluster in the first five letters (or first two > syllaboids, if it's changed to that).

Right, but that's more a consequence of brivla rules than a requirement for anything. That rule doesn't exclude any candidate fu'ivla.

> This is too big a change for me to > agree with it.

OK. I guess we will vote on each issue separately.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 1912

We can group vowel pairs as follows:

1- ai au ei oi Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene.

2- ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene word initially. Should they be permitted after a consonant? Should they be permitted after '? Should they be permitted in some but not all of cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

3- aa ae ao ea ee eo eu oa oe oo ou Should they be permitted at all? Should they be permitted exclusively in cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

4- iy uy Permitted in cmene only. Reserved as a hyphen.

5- ay ey oy ya ye yi yo yu Should they be permitted at all even in cmene?

6- yy Permitted in isolation, equivalent to a single y.

I would like to hear as many opinions as possible on this. Should we have rules as general as possible for all types of words, or a different rule for each type? Should we tend to more restrictive or more permissive rules? Where is the right balance?

Depending on what we do with groups 2 and 3 we can then see what to do with longer clusters. Obviously if we don't allow {ae}, it would make no sense to allow {aei} for example.

Opinions?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 12:55 GMT

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 21:51, Jorge Llambías wrote: > We can group vowel pairs as follows: > > 1- ai au ei oi > Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene.

OK

> 2- ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu > Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene word initially. > Should they be permitted after a consonant? > Should they be permitted after '? > Should they be permitted in some but not all of cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

Should be permitted anywhere in fu'ivla and anywhere except at the end in cmene. Examples: ckankua (skunk), strutione (ostrich), uiski (whisky), UAcintyn (Washington), niuIORK (New York). Whether they should be allowed in cmavo longer than two letters, I don't know.

> 3- aa ae ao ea ee eo eu oa oe oo ou > Should they be permitted at all? > Should they be permitted exclusively in cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

Should be allowed in fu'ivla and cmene. Example: stagrleoxari (water chestnut). Not sure about cmavo.

> 4- iy uy > Permitted in cmene only. Reserved as a hyphen.

OK. Should not be considered as a hyphen if it occurs within a name; it's just part of the name.

> 5- ay ey oy ya ye yi yo yu > Should they be permitted at all even in cmene?

Not sure. Possible example: ROynok. Valfendi allows this but vlatai does not.

> 6- yy > Permitted in isolation, equivalent to a single y.

OK.

phma -- AS d- s-: a+ c+++ p+ t f S+ e++ h r->++ n-(++)* i P- m++ M+

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 16 of Feb., 2005 14:04 GMT posts: 1912

.... > > 2- ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu > > Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene word initially. > > Should they be permitted after a consonant? > > Should they be permitted after '? > > Should they be permitted in some but not all of cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene? > > Should be permitted anywhere in fu'ivla and anywhere except at the end in > cmene. Examples: ckankua (skunk), strutione (ostrich),

Nora argued that these may be hard to say or may degenerate into other sounds after some consonants. We could make a list of consonants after which they are allowed, or we could allow them after any consonant with a recommendation somewhere that they should be avoided after such and such consonants.

What about after apostrophe? Would you accept {bra'ia}, {bra'uu}? {brii'ii}?

> uiski (whisky), > UAcintyn (Washington),

Those two are totally kosher, as there is no reason to disallow these diphthongs word-initially. I don't see any possible argument against cmavo like {.ia'u}, {.iu'ai}, {.uu'u}, etc, either.

> niuIORK (New York).

How about the fu'ivla {niuiorka}? Or {cniuiorka} to leave aside the five letter rule.

> > 3- aa ae ao ea ee eo eu oa oe oo ou > > Should they be permitted at all? > > Should they be permitted exclusively in cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene? > > Should be allowed in fu'ivla and cmene. Example: stagrleoxari (water > chestnut). Not sure about cmavo.

Would allow any string (of any length) of non-y vowels in fu'ivla and cmene? This is what PEG does at this point, and the same rule is applied to cmavo.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by noras on Thu 17 of Feb., 2005 05:47 GMT posts: 23

Yes! This is exactly the kinds of questions that should be asked. And the first place to look for answers should be CLL (it IS the baseline, after all).

Jorge wrote:

>We can group vowel pairs as follows: > >1- ai au ei oi >Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene. > >2- ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu >Permitted in cmavo, fu'ivla and cmene word initially. >Should they be permitted after a consonant? >Should they be permitted after '? >Should they be permitted in some but not all of cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

I don't like them after consonant or ' because of pronunciation issues mentioned previously. However, CLL says only stand-alone and in names and borrowings.


>3- aa ae ao ea ee eo eu oa oe oo ou >Should they be permitted at all? >Should they be permitted exclusively in cmavo, fu'ivla or cmene?

I dislike them all. CLL not particularly helpful.


>4- iy uy >Permitted in cmene only. Reserved as a hyphen.

CLL: only in names. I agree.


>5- ay ey oy ya ye yi yo yu >Should they be permitted at all even in cmene?

I prefer not. CLL seems to say not.


>6- yy >Permitted in isolation, equivalent to a single y. > >I would like to hear as many opinions as possible on this. >Should we have rules as general as possible for all types of words, >or a different rule for each type? >Should we tend to more restrictive or more permissive rules? Where >is the right balance? > >Depending on what we do with groups 2 and 3 we can then see >what to do with longer clusters. Obviously if we don't allow >{ae}, it would make no sense to allow {aei} for example. > >Opinions? > >mu'o mi'e xorxes

Here, for the record, is the analysis I did last year on just what CLL says (some inconsistencies noted). No, I had never posted it.

==

Chapter 2 (Quicktour - ignore as being simplified for quick understanding of basics):

==

p12: 'Stress falls on the next to the last syllable of all words, unless that vowel is "y", which is never stressed; in such words the third-to-last syllable is stressed. If a word only has one syllable, then that syllable is not stressed.' ---------- Chapter 3 (pronunciation): p31: 'Note in particular that Lojban vowels ...; some people round "y" as well.' p31: 'The apostrophe sound is a consonant in nature, but is not treated as either a consonant or a vowel for purposes of Lojban morphology...' p31: 'The apostrophe is included in Lojban only to enable a smooth transition between vowels, while joining the vowels within a single word.' ---------- p31-32: 'A pause (or glottal stop) may appear between any two words, an in certain cases - explained in detail in Chapter 4 - must occur. In particular, a word beginning with a vowel is always preceded by a pause, and a word ending in a consonant is always followed by a pause.' ---------- p32: 'The comma is used to indicate a syllable break within a word, generally one that is not obvious to the reader. Such a comma is written to separate syllables, but indicates that there must be no pause between them, in contrast to the period. Between two vowels, a comma indicates that some type of glide may be necessary to avoid a pause that would split the two syllables into separate words. It is always legal to use the apostrophe sound in pronouncing a comma.' p32: 'Commas are never required: no two Lojban words differ solely because of the presence or placement of a comma.' [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/but%20p32%20'always%20legal%3Cbr%20/%3Eto%20use%20the%20apostrophe%20sound%20in%20pronouncing%20a%20comma but p32 'always legal to use the apostrophe sound in pronouncing a comma] ---------- p33: 'Diphthongs always constitute a single syllable.' p33: 'Consonants may occur at the beginning or end of a syllable, around the vowel, and there may be several consonants in a cluster in either position. Each separate vowel sound constitutes a distinct syllable; consonant sounds do not affect the determination of syllables.' p33: 'The six Lojban vowels are "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", and "y". The first five vowels appear freely in all kinds of Lojban words. The vowel "y" has a limited distribution: it appears only in Lojbanized names, in the Lojban names of the letters of the alphabet, as a glue vowel in compound words, and standing alone as a space-filler word...' p33: 'The Lojban diphthongs are shown in the table below...' [note:
descending 5 appear first, then ascending 10 regular, then appear last" rel="">note: descending 5 appear first, then ascending 10 regular, then "iy" and "uy" appear last]. ---------- p34: 'The first four descending ... are freely used in most types of Lojban words.' p34: '... the ten following ones ascending, but not 'iy' nor 'uy' are used only as stand-alone words and in Lojbanized names and borrowings.' p34: '... the last two ("iy" and "uy") are used only in Lojbanized names.' p34: 'The syllabic consonants of Lojban l, m, n, r... They normally have only a limited distribution, appearing in Lojban names and borrowings, although in principle any "l", "m", "n", or "r" may be pronounced syllabically.' but see p40 on counting syllables p34: 'Syllabic consonants are treated as consonants rather than vowels from the standpoint of Lojban morphology.' p34: 'Syllables with syllabic consonants and no vowel are never stressed or counted when determining which syllables to stress ... .' p34: 'The Lojban vowels also occur in pairs, where each vowel sound is in a separate syllable.' ---------- p35: 'The Lojban vowel pairs in separate syllables are: ...'. [note:
combinations with 'y' are included note: combinations with 'y' are included]. p35: 'Vowel pairs in separate syllables involving "y" appear only in Lojbanized names. They could appear in cmavo (structure words), but only ".y'y." is so used.' p35: 'When more than two vowels occur together ... pairs vowels from the left into syllables ... In order to indicate a different grouping, the comma must always be used ...' ---------- p36: 'In Lojban, doubled consonants are excluded altogether, and clusters are limited to two or three members, except in Lojbanized names.' p36: '... however, no consonant (including syllabic consonants) occurs final in a word except in Lojbanized names.' p36: 'Pairs of consonants can also appear freely, with the following restrictions: 1) It is forbidden for both consonants to be the same ... 2) It is forbidden for one consonant to be voiced and the other unvoiced... 3) It is forbidden for both consonants to be drawn from the set "c", "j", "s", "z". 4) The specific paird "cx", "kx", "xc", "xk", and "mz" are fobidden. These rules apply to all kinds of words, even Lojbanized names.' ---------- p37: 'There are just 48 such may appear at the beginning permissible initial consonant pairs ...' p37: 'Consonant triples can occur medially in Lojban words. They are subject to the following rules referred to also on p50: 1) The first two consonants must constitute a persmissible consanant pair; 2) The last two consonants must constitute a permissible initial consonant pair; but 'bongnanba' example on page 39 3) The triples "ndj", "ndz", "ntc" and "nts" are forbidden.' p37: 'Lojbanized names can begin or end with any permissible consonant pair ..., and can have consonant triples in any location ... . ... names can contain consonant clusters with more than three consonants, again requiring that each pair withing the cluster is valid.' ---------- p39: 'A Lojban word has one syllable for each of its vowels, diphthongs, and syllabic consonants (referred to simply as "vowels" for the purposes of this section).' ---------- p40: 'Most Lojban words are stressed on the next-to-the-last ... syllable. ... syllables whose vowel is "y" or which contain a syllabic consonant are never counted.' p40: 'Primary stress is required on the penultimate syllable of Lojan content words...'. p40: 'Lojbanized names may be stressed on any syllable...' p40: 'Lojban structural words (called "cmavo") may be stressed on any syllable or none at all. However, primary stress may not be used in a syllable just preceding a brivla, unless a pause divides them...' alternate orthography, my synopsis removed

==

Chapter 4 (morphology):

==

p49-50 notation conventions in intro to chapter, slightly paraphrased:

  • V - any single Lojban vowel except "y"
  • VV - either diphthong, one of ... ai, ei, oi, au; or two-syllable vowel

pair with apostrohphe ... one of ... [note: none have note: none have "y"].

  • C - single Lojban consonant not including apostrophe, one of ...
  • Syllabic l, m, n, r always count as consonats for the purposes of this

chapter.

  • CC - two adjacent consonants ... one of the 48 permissible initial

consonant pairs: list

  • C/C - represents two adjacent consonants ... one of the permissible

consonant pairs ...

  • C/CC - consonant triple. 'The first two consonants must constitute a

permissible consonant pair; the last two consonants must constitute a permissible initial consonant pair. [note: same as p37 explanation note: same as p37 explanation]. ---------- p51: 'Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure ....: V-form CV-form VV-form CVV-form In addition, there is the cmavo ".y." (remember that "y" is not a V), which must have pauses before and after it.' [note: mentioned here" rel="">note: ".y'y." not mentioned here] P51: Words consisting of three or more vowels in a row, or a single consonant followed by three or more vowels, are also of the cmavo form, but are reserved for experimental use. P51: "Experimental use" means that the language designers will not assign any standard meaning or usage to these words..." P51: The cmavo of VV-form include not only the diphthongs and vowel pairs listed in Section 1, but also ... .ia, .ie, .ii, .io, .iu, .ua, .ue, ..ui., .uo, .uu P51: In addition, cmavo can have the form "Cy"... P51: If the final syllable of one word is stressed, and the first syllable of the next word is stressed, you must insert a pause or glottal stop between the two stressed syllables. ---------- 4.3 brivla ---------- p52: Every brivla belongs to one of three major subtypes [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/per%20page%2053,%3Cbr%20/%3Ethe%20following: per page 53, the following:] The three subtypes of brivla are: 1. gismu... 2. lujvo... 3. fu'ivla... ---------- p53: All brivla have the following properties: 1. always end in a vowel 2. always contain a consonant pair in the first five letters, where "y" and apostrophe are not counted as letters for this purpose... 3. always are stressed on the next-to-the-last (penultimate) syllable; this implies that they have two or more syllables. ---------- 4.4 gismu ---------- P54: ... all gismu are of the forms CVC/CV or CCVCV. They must meet the rules for all brivla given in Section 3; furthermore they: 1. always have 5 letters 2. always start with a consonant and end with a single vowel; 3. always contain exactly on consonant pair, which is a permissible initial pair (CC) if it's at the beginning of the gismu, but otherwise only has to be a permissible peir (C/C); 4. are always stressed on the first syllable (since that is penultimate). P54: no gismu contains "'" ---------- 4.5 lujvo ---------- p56: When assembling rafsi together into lujvo, the rules for valid brivla must be followed.

4.6 rafsi ---------- p57: Each gismu always has at least two rafsi forms; one is the gismu itself (used only at the end of a lujvo), and one is the gismu without its final vowel (used only at the beginning or middle of a lujvo). ... CVC/CV or CCVCV ... and CVC/C or CCVC ... p57: All short rafsi have one of the forms CVC, CCV, or CVV. ---------- P58: ... CVC-form rafsi ... cannot be used at the end of a lujvo P58: CCV-form rafsi is possible only if the two consonants form a permissible initial consonant pair. ---------- P59: The "y"-hyphen is used after a CVC-form rafsi when joining it with the following rafsi could result in an impermissible consonant pair, or when the resulting lujvo could fall apart into two or more words (either cmavo or gismu lujvo not mentioned). ---------- P60: The "y"-hyphen is also used to attach a 4-letter rafsi... P60: The "r"-hyphen and its close relative, the "n"-hyphen, are use in lujvo only after CVV-form rafsi. P60: A r or n hyphen is always required in a two-part lujvo of the for CVV-CVV ... P60: An "r"-hyphen or "n"-hyphen is also required after the CVV-form rafsi of any lujvo of the form CVV-CVC/CV or CVV-CCVCV. P60: In any lujvo with more than two parts, a CVV-form rafsi in the initial position must always be followed by a hyphen. P60: an "n"-hyphen is only used in place of an "r"-hyphen when the folling rafsi begins with "r". ---------- P61: Note that rafsi may not be used in "zei" phrases, because they are not words...rafsi appear only as parts of lujvo but see below. ---------- 4.7 fu'ivla ---------- p61: or type 3 fu'ivla A rafsi is then usually attached to the beginning of the Lojbanized form ... ---------- p62: All fu'ivla: 1. must contain a consonant cluster in the first five letters ...; if ... at the beginning, it must either be a permissible initial consonant pair, or a longer cluster such that each pair of adjacent consonants in the cluster is a permissible initial consonant pair. 2. must end in one or more vowels 3. must not be gismu or lujvo, or any combination of cmavo, gismu, and lujvo [note: cmavo+fu'ivla not mentioned note: cmavo+fu'ivla not mentioned]; furthermore, a fu'ivla with a CV cmavo joined to the front of it must not have the form of a lujvo. 4. cannot contain "y", although they may contain syllabic pronunciations of Lojban consonants 5. like other brivla, are stressed on the penultimate syllable. ---------- P62: ... consonant triple or larger clusters that are not at the beginning of a fu'ivla can be quite flexible, as long as all consonant pairs are permissible no specific mention of ndj, etc ---------- 4.8 cmene ---------- p65: Names ... always end in a consonant, and are followed by a pause. P65: Names are not permitted to have the sequences "la", "lai", or "doi" no mention of "la'i", but see summary in 3.9 and repeat on p138! embedded in them, unless the sequence is immediately preceded by a consonant. P65: ... the fact that all Lojban cmene embedded in a speech stream will be preceded by one of these words or by a pause. ---------- P66: Lojban cmene ... characteristics: 1. They must end in one or more consonants. There are no rules about how many consonants may appear in a cluster in cmene, provided that each consonant pair ... is a permissible pair no mention of ndj, etc 2. They may contain the letter y .... They are the only kind of Lojban word that may contain the two diphthongs "iy" and "uy". 3. They are always followed in speech by a pause after the final consonant 4. They may be stressed on any syllable capitalize if not penultimate ---------- 4.9 pauses ---------- p68-69: Summarized in one place, here are the rules for inserting pauses between Lojban words: 1. Any two words may have a pause between them; it is always illegal to pause in the middle of a word ... 2. Every word ending in a consonant must be followed by a pause. 3. Every word beginning with a vowel must be preceded by a pause. 4. Every cmene must be preceded by a pause, unless the immediately preceding word is one the cmavo "la", "lai", "la'i" but see p65 & p138, or "doi". 5. If the last syllable of a word bears the stress, and a brivla follows, the two must be separated by a pause ... 6. A cmavo of the form "Cy" must be followed by a pause unless another "Cy"-form cmavo follows. 7. When non-Lojban text is embedded in Lojban, it must be preceded and followed by pauses. [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/no%20mention%20of%20.y.%20and%20.y'y.;%20must%20they%20be%20followed%20by%20pause%20or%20not?%20%20And,%3Cbr%20/%3Eare%20they no mention of .y. and .y'y.; must they be followed by pause or not? And, are they "vowels" for these purposes such that they are preceded by pause?] ---------- 4.11 lujvo-making algorithm, salient points only, rephrased - p70 ----------

  • It is illegal to add a hyphen at a place that is not required by this

algorithm.

  • r or n hyphen after initial CVV in more-than-2-piece lujvo; n if and only

if letter after is r

  • y between impermissible medials
  • y after any 4-letter form
  • y after 1st rafsi if fails tosmabru:

CVC...CVC + CVCCV or CVC...CVC + y (because of invalid medial) + ... where all CC joints up to last mentioned piece are valid initials. ---------- 4.16 rafsi fu'ivla: a proposal ---------- p80: experimental status: it is not yet a standard part of Lojban, since all its implications have not been tested in open debate ... p80: All ... CCVVCV would be reserved for cultural brivla p80 No two fu'ivla of this form would be allowed to coexist if they differed only in the final vowel; this rule was applied to gismu but does not apply to other fu'ivla or to lujvo p80 ... fully experimental ... allow rafsi to be formed ... by removing the final vowel and treating the result as a 4-letter rafsi. p80: There would be no short rafsi or 5-letter rafsi assigned to any fu'ivla, so no fu'ivla could appear as the last element of a lujvo. p80: ... might become standard for all type 4 fu'ivla, including those made for plants, animals, foodstuffs, and other things.

==

Chapter 6 - sumti

==

6.12 - lojban names ---------- p138: There are certain limitations on the form of name-words in Lojban. In particular, they cannot contain the letter-sequences (or sound-sequences) "la", "lai", or "doi" no la'i unless a consonant immediately precedes within the name. Reciprocally, every name not preceded by "la", "lai", "la'i" or "doi" must be preceded by a pause instead.

==

Chapter 17 - letterals

==

17.2 ---------- p414: ... the vowel and "'" lerfu words are two syllables and must be preceded by paud (since they all begin with a vowel). p414: Note that the lerfu words ending in "y" were written ... with pauses after them. It is not strictly necessary to pause after such lerfu words, but failure to do so can in some cases lead to ambiguities. ... A safe guideline is to pause after any cmavo ending in "y" unless the next word is also a cmavo ending in "y". The safest and easiest guideline is to pause after all of them.

==

Chapter 19 - Putting it all together

==

19.10 more on quotations ---------- p477: on zoi It's syntax is "zoi X. text .X", where X is a Lojban word (called the delimiting word) which is separated from the quoted text by pauses, and which is not found in the written text or spoken phoneme stream. p477: on zoi Within written text, the Lojban written word used as a delimiting word may not appear, whereas within spoken text, the sound ... may not be uttered. ---------- p478: on zoi/lo'u A minor note on interaction between "lo'u ...le'u" and "zoi": The text between "lo'u" and "le'u" should consist of Lojban words only. In fact, non-Lojban material in the form of a "zoi" quotation may also appear. However, if the word "le'u" is used either as the delimiting word for the "zoi" quotation, or within the quotation itself, the outer "lo'u" quotation will be prematurely terminated. Therefore, "le'u" should be avoided as the delimiting word in and "zoi" quotation. ---------- p479: The cmavo "la'o" also belongs to selma'o ZOI ... ---------- 19.14 Hesitation "y" ---------- p484: ... requirement to pause before and after. ... the "y" sound can be dragged out for as long as necessary. Furthermore, the sound can be repeated, provided the required pauses are respected. ---------- 19.16 - cmavo interactions ---------- p485:

le'u = end of lo'u, if there, per above]

    • ZOI cmavo use the following word as a delimiting word, no matter what it

is, but using "le'u" may creat difficulties

    • "zei" combines ... into lujvo, but does not affect "zo", "si", "sa", "su"

"lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", and "zei" zoi zei, and zei zoi

    • "BAhE cmavo mark the following word, unless it is "si", "sa", or "su" or

unless it is preceded by "zo". Multiple BAhE cmavo may be used in succession. zoi ba'e?

    • "bu" makes the preceding word into a lerfu word, except for "zo", "si",

"sa", "su", "lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", zei", BAhE cmavo, and "bu". Multiple "bu" cmavo may be used in succession.

    • UI and CAI cmavo mark the previous word, except for "zo", "si", "sa",

"su", "lo'u", ZOI cmavo, "fa'o", zei", BAhe cmavo, and "bu". Multiple UI .... A following "nai" is made part of the UI.

    • ".y.", "da'o", "fu'e", and "fu'o" are the same as UI, but do not absorb a

following "nai".

==

Chapter 21 - formal grammar

==

21.1 - lexing ---------- p511: From phonemes, stress, and pause, it is possible to resolve Lojban unambiguously into a stream of words. ... However, step 2 allows the filtering of a phonetically transcribed text stream, to recognize such portions of non-Lojban text where properly delimited, ... 21.2 - filtering ---------- p511-512: From start to end, ... using the given order of precedence in case of conflict: 1. If the Lojban word "zoi" (selma'o ZOI) is identified, take the following Lojban word (which should be end delimited with a pause ...) as an opening delimiter. Treat all text following ... until that delimiter recurs after a pause ... 2. ... "zo" ..., treat the following Lojban word as a token ... instead of lexing ... 3. ... "lo'u" ..., search for the closing delimiter "le'u", ignoring any such closing delimiters absorbed by the previous two steps ... [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/so%20lo'u%3Cbr%20/%3Ezoi%20le'u? so lo'u zoi le'u?] 4. Categorize all remaining words into their Lojban selma'o ... 5. ... "si" ..., erase it and the previous word (or token if ... condensed into a single token). 6. ... "sa" ..., erase it and all preceding text as far back as necessary to make what follows attach to what precedes. ... 7. ... "su" ..., erase it and all preceding text back to and including the first preceding token word ... of ... NIhO, LU, TUhE, and TO. However, if speaker identification is available, a SU shall only erase to the beginning of a speaker's discourse, unless ... ---------- 21.3 termination ---------- p512: If the text contains a FAhO, ... ignore everything that follows it. ---------- 21.4 grammar-free tokens ---------- p512: In a new pass, ... 1. ... any - (ZEI - any) ... into a single token of selma'o BRIVLA 2. ... BAhE tokens into the gollowing token. 3. ... BU tokens into the previous token ... as selma'o BY 4. ... NAI ... immediately following UI or CAI, ... into the previous token 5. ... DAhO, FUhO, FUhE, UI, Y and CAI into the previous token.


mi'e noras noras@cox.net Nora LeChevalier

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Posted by xorxes on Thu 17 of Feb., 2005 22:01 GMT posts: 1912

Thank you Nora for the compendium of CLL on morphology.

I'm selecting here what CLL says about 'y', and how it compares with the PEG morphology:

> p12: 'Stress falls on the next to the last syllable of all words, unless > that vowel is "y", which is never stressed; in such words the third-to-last > syllable is stressed. If a word only has one syllable, then that syllable > is not stressed.' > ----------

The PEG morphology treats "Y" in all respects the same as "y", i.e. it assigns no significance to a possible stress on "y".

> p33: 'The six Lojban vowels are "a", "e", "i", "o", "u", and "y". The > first five vowels appear freely in all kinds of Lojban words. The vowel > "y" has a limited distribution: it appears only in Lojbanized names, in > the Lojban names of the letters of the alphabet, as a glue vowel in > compound words, and standing alone as a space-filler word...'

This is respected in the PEG morphology.

> p33: 'The Lojban diphthongs are shown in the table below...' [note:
> descending 5 appear first, then ascending 10 regular, then > appear last" rel="">note: > descending 5 appear first, then ascending 10 regular, then "iy" and "uy" > appear last]. > ---------- > p34: '... the last two ("iy" and "uy") are used only in Lojbanized names.' > ----------

In the PEG morphology, "iy" is also used as the hyphen for cmene rafsi.

> p35: 'The Lojban vowel pairs in separate syllables are: ...'. [note:
> combinations with 'y' are included note: > combinations with 'y' are included]. > p35: 'Vowel pairs in separate syllables involving "y" appear only in > Lojbanized names. They could appear in cmavo (structure words), but only > ".y'y." is so used.' > ----------

Those combinations with y are used by PEG in hyphens for extended rafsi, they are not allowed in cmavo.

> p40: 'Most Lojban words are stressed on the next-to-the-last ... > syllable. ... syllables whose vowel is "y" or which contain a syllabic > consonant are never counted.' > ----------

PEG follows that rule.

> p51: 'Standard cmavo occur in four forms defined by their word structure > ...: > V-form > CV-form > VV-form > CVV-form > In addition, there is the cmavo ".y." (remember that "y" is not a > V), which must have pauses before and after it.' [note: > mentioned here" rel="">note: ".y'y." not > mentioned here]

The pause before {.y} is the standard pause before any word that begins with a vowel, and it is enforced in PEG. The pause after {.y} is not required by PEG.

> ---------- > P59: The "y"-hyphen is used after a CVC-form rafsi when joining it with > the following rafsi could result in an impermissible consonant pair, or > when the resulting lujvo could fall apart into two or more words (either > cmavo or gismu lujvo not mentioned).

In PEG too the "y"-hyphen is required in those situations, but it is always permitted after a CVC rafsi, even when not strictly necessary.

> ---------- .... > 3. Every word beginning with a vowel must be preceded by a pause. .... > [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/no%20mention%20of%20.y.%20and%20.y'y.;%20must%20they%20be%20followed%20by%20pause%20or%20not?%20%20And,%3Cbr%20/%3E%3E%20are%20they no mention of .y. and .y'y.; must they be followed by pause or not? And, > are they "vowels" for these purposes such that they are preceded by pause?] > ----------

PEG now forbids the sequences "ay", "ey and "oy" everywhere, and "iy" and "uy" can only appear in cmene or cmene rafsi, so by force {.y} and {.y'y} must begin with a pause. They are not required to be followed by a pause. (A cmene after them must begin with a pause, put that's just what happens with cmene after any word other than doi/la/lai/la'i, not a special rule for .y or .y'y.)

(ya, ye, yi, yo, yu are also forbidden everywhere now.)

.... > 6. A cmavo of the form "Cy" must be followed by a pause unless another > "Cy"-form cmavo follows. > ----------

But CLL also says:

> p414: Note that the lerfu words ending in "y" were written ... with > pauses after them. It is not strictly necessary to pause after such lerfu > words, but failure to do so can in some cases lead to ambiguities. ... A > safe guideline is to pause after any cmavo ending in "y" unless the next > word is also a cmavo ending in "y". The safest and easiest guideline is to > pause after all of them.

So th e pause rule is here treated as a guideline rather than a strict prohibition. PEG follows this more lenient rule: it allows not pausing after Cy when no ambiguity results.

In fact, no special rule of pausing for Cy is required. The only related rule is that a CV cmavo does not fall off from a string CVCy- followed by any number of rafsi.

> ======== > 19.14 Hesitation "y" > ---------- > p484: ... requirement to pause before and after. ... the "y" sound can > be dragged out for as long as necessary. Furthermore, the sound can be > repeated, provided the required pauses are respected. > ----------

PEG allows writing things like yyyyyyyyy for dragged out y's.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Tue 22 of Feb., 2005 22:25 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 12:49:47PM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Currently these syllables are not allowed in cmene unless preceded > by a consonant or followed by a vowel or apostrophe. There is a > proposal to drop the restriction altogether, and require cmene to > always begin and end with a pause (as they are required in some > contexts already).

Yet Another Try at fixing this issue.

It seems to me that if we don't allow pauses *in* cmene (i.e. we allow one cmene at a time after each la/doi/whatever), the problem goes away because a cmene is the maximally long consonant+pause terminated string after la/doi/whatever.

If people really need to express both a first and last name, they can concat them or use ce'o la or something.

Regardless of whether you like the idea or not, I'd like other people to let me know if they think it actually works.

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Tue 22 of Feb., 2005 22:26 GMT posts: 1912

> > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > Yet Another Try at fixing this issue. > > It seems to me that if we don't allow pauses *in* cmene (i.e. we > allow one cmene at a time after each la/doi/whatever), the problem > goes away because a cmene is the maximally long consonant+pause > terminated string after la/doi/whatever. > > If people really need to express both a first and last name, they > can concat them or use ce'o la or something. > > Regardless of whether you like the idea or not, I'd like other > people to let me know if they think it actually works.

How would {zo .melanis. cmene lamelanis.} parse?

{nis.} is the maximally long consonant+pause terminated string after the first la.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 23 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:28:04PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > Issue5: doi-la-lai-la'i in cmene > > > > Yet Another Try at fixing this issue. > > > > It seems to me that if we don't allow pauses *in* cmene (i.e. we > > allow one cmene at a time after each la/doi/whatever), the > > problem goes away because a cmene is the maximally long > > consonant+pause terminated string after la/doi/whatever. > > > > If people really need to express both a first and last name, > > they can concat them or use ce'o la or something. > > > > Regardless of whether you like the idea or not, I'd like other > > people to let me know if they think it actually works. > > How would {zo .melanis. cmene lamelanis.} parse?

Always with you and the {zo}. I'm only talking about cases where the front pause is optional; zo is not one of them, and hence doesn't have the problem anyawys.

I'm not aware of *any* (serious) morphology that would stop the "me" there from breaking off, generating "zo me la nis". Certainly that's how camxes currently works.

Clearly you intended this example to demonstrate a problem and, as usual, I have no idea what that problem is. Do you think you could be a *tad* more verbose?

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 23 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 1912

> On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:28:04PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > How would {zo .melanis. cmene lamelanis.} parse? > > I'm not aware of *any* (serious) morphology that would stop the "me" > there from breaking off, generating "zo me la nis". Certainly > that's how camxes currently works. > > Clearly you intended this example to demonstrate a problem and, as > usual, I have no idea what that problem is. Do you think you could > be a *tad* more verbose?

How would you quote the word {melanis.} then? Would such words be unquotable with {zo}?

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 23 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 03:48:53PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 01:28:04PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > > > How would {zo .melanis. cmene lamelanis.} parse? > > > > I'm not aware of *any* (serious) morphology that would stop the > > "me" there from breaking off, generating "zo me la nis". > > Certainly that's how camxes currently works. > > > > Clearly you intended this example to demonstrate a problem and, > > as usual, I have no idea what that problem is. Do you think you > > could be a *tad* more verbose? > > How would you quote the word {melanis.} then? Would such words be > unquotable with {zo}?

They already are; there is no morphology I am aware of where that does not break up. I think it probably even breaks up in the pause-on-both-sides scheme.

It certainly breaks up in camxes at this time:

text |- CMAVO | ZO: zo |- spaces: . |- CMAVO | ME: me |- CMAVO | LA: la |- CMENE | cmene: nis |- spaces: .

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 23 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 1912

> On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 03:48:53PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:

> > How would you quote the word {melanis.} then? Would such words be > > unquotable with {zo}? > > They already are; there is no morphology I am aware of where that > does not break up. I think it probably even breaks up in the > pause-on-both-sides scheme.

No, why should it?

> It certainly breaks up in camxes at this time:

Yes. Currently camxes follows the no doi/la/lai/la'i rule, so {melanis} is not a single word, it is three words.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Wed 23 of Feb., 2005 06:30 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 04:01:51PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 03:48:53PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > How would you quote the word {melanis.} then? Would such words > > > be unquotable with {zo}? > > > > They already are; there is no morphology I am aware of where > > that does not break up. I think it probably even breaks up in > > the pause-on-both-sides scheme. > > No, why should it?

/me thinks.

Nevermind.

> > It certainly breaks up in camxes at this time: > > Yes. Currently camxes follows the no doi/la/lai/la'i rule,

It does? Oh. I thought it didn't.

> so {melanis} is not a single word, it is three words.

  • nod*

This seem handled easily enough in my proposal by adding ZO to the list of things that can precede a cmene.

-Robin