Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/9507
Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #9507. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.
camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
PierreAbbat · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9507
the months of the Roman calendar (ianvari, frebuari, martio, prilio, madjio, djunio, djulio, avgusto, septembero, oktobero, novmbero, decmbero; kuintili (=djulio), sektili (=avgusto), mercedonio (noi setca ke'a lo frebuari)), and it accepted them all. Vlatai rejects zo martio bi'o zo djulio.
"soiombo" (a Mongolian symbol) and "peuence" (the Chilean people of the monkey-puzzle tree) it rejects. These would be valid if the rule were "The second consonant must be next to another consonant when y'y and ybu are ignored", but with the current rule, "There must be a consonant cluster in the first five letters, ignoring y'y and ybu", they're not. However, it considers "soiombo" to break into "so iombo". This I think is incorrect. A word beginning with a vowel must be preceded by a pause, else you can't tell "so iombo" from "soi ombo". Both programs accept "ricrpeuence".
camxes rejects "aierne". Its attempt at a parse is simply "a" (".a .ierne" is not the start of anything grammatical, as "a" is expecting a sumti to follow), even though ".ai .erne" is grammatical.
camxes accepts "amliau" and not "mliau"; jbofi'e accepts "mliau" as a word and splits "amliau" into a misparse. Whichever one is valid means "meow".
Pierre -- When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. Já não percebe nada, já não percebe nada.
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
Stela Selckiku <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9508 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> > camxes accepts "amliau" and not "mliau"; jbofi'e accepts "mliau" as a word and > splits "amliau" into a misparse. Whichever one is valid means "meow".
.i mi zmadu nelci zo mliau pe'i
ni'o ki'e .pier. do .io virnu fu'ivla bo facki
ni'o mi'a pu finti zo zi'evla .i smuni panra zo fu'ivla .i je ku'i mi'a nelci do'e zo zifre .i pe'i lo zi'evla cu se krasi lo vrici ca le ca cedra .i mo pe'i pei doi ro do
mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9509 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> I installed camxes (the compiled jar) and ran it on some words. I gave it all > the months of the Roman calendar (ianvari, frebuari, martio, prilio, madjio, > djunio, djulio, avgusto, septembero, oktobero, novmbero, decmbero; kuintili > (=djulio), sektili (=avgusto), mercedonio (noi setca ke'a lo frebuari)), and > it accepted them all. Vlatai rejects zo martio bi'o zo djulio.
Right. camxes accepts the CS syllable onset (where S stands for the semivowels i, u), although there has never been an official decision one way or the other about this. Why does vlatai reject them? I thought vlatai was generally more permissive than camxes about these things.
> "soiombo" (a Mongolian symbol) and "peuence" (the Chilean people of the > monkey-puzzle tree) it rejects.
It should read them as "so iombo", "pe uence".
Basically, what camxes does is treat the semivowels i/u as onsets and thus any word that starts with them doesn't require a ".".
> These would be valid if the rule were "The > second consonant must be next to another consonant when y'y and ybu are > ignored", but with the current rule, "There must be a consonant cluster in > the first five letters, ignoring y'y and ybu", they're not. However, it > considers "soiombo" to break into "so iombo". This I think is incorrect. A > word beginning with a vowel must be preceded by a pause, else you can't > tell "so iombo" from "soi ombo". Both programs accept "ricrpeuence".
"soi.ombo" requires a glottal stop. "soiombo" is unambiguously "so iombo".
The rule about "the first five letters" is a bit nonsensical from a phonological point of view. There is no sensible reason to reject "ba'auski" if ".a'auski" is accepted.
The camxes rule basically is: if it consists of Lojban non-y syllables with penultimate stress, it ends in an open syllable, and the initial part doesn't fall off as a cmavo or slinku'i consonant, then it's a valid fu'ivla. (Also, the first syllable can't be a consonantal syllable.)
> camxes rejects "aierne". Its attempt at a parse is simply "a" (".a .ierne" is > not the start of anything grammatical, as "a" is expecting a sumti to > follow), even though ".ai .erne" is grammatical.
It's grammatical for example in "zo .a ierne", or "lo'u .a ierne le'u".
In any case, the lexer doesn't care about syntax, it just breaks a stream of phonemes into words. Whether those words end up forming a grammatical utterance or not is not a concern for the lexer.
> camxes accepts "amliau" and not "mliau";
Yes, because "am" and "liau" are valid syllables. camxes doesn't like CCS as syllable onset.
> jbofi'e accepts "mliau" as a word and > splits "amliau" into a misparse. Whichever one is valid means "meow".
(Although the phonological issues that still have to be officially settled are relatively few and marginal, the BPFK should make a decision about them at some point, it probably doesn't look very good for Lojban that we still haven't made up our mind about them.)
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
PierreAbbat · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9515 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> Right. camxes accepts the CS syllable onset (where S stands for the > semivowels i, u), although there has never been an official decision > one way or the other about this. Why does vlatai reject them? I > thought vlatai was generally more permissive than camxes about these > things.
Apparently because "marti'o" is a lujvo and something to do with the Loglan compromise orthography.
> It should read them as "so iombo", "pe uence".
It does say "so iombo", but "pe uence" is ungrammatical.
> It's grammatical for example in "zo .a ierne", or "lo'u .a ierne le'u".
True, but a sentence can't begin with ".a ierne", and I didn't put anything before "a".
> Yes, because "am" and "liau" are valid syllables. camxes doesn't like > CCS as syllable onset.
The issue is whether "iau" is a triphthong. The only hint in the refgram that there are triphthongs is "i,iai,i,iai,ion", and unlike the diphthongs where those that can occur in lujvo are distinguished from those that can't, there's no list of valid triphthongs. If "iau" is a triphthong, then "mliau" is one syllable, and a brivla must have at least two.
> (Although the phonological issues that still have to be officially > settled are relatively few and marginal, the BPFK should make a > decision about them at some point, it probably doesn't look very good > for Lojban that we still haven't made up our mind about them.)
Can we get Nora involved? She's the third person on this committee.
Pierre
-- Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9518 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> On Saturday 23 January 2010 09:14:05 Jorge Llambías wrote: > >> It's grammatical for example in "zo .a ierne", or "lo'u .a ierne le'u". > > True, but a sentence can't begin with ".a ierne", and I didn't put anything > before "a".
The utterance ".a ierne si" is grammatical. But it's true that ".a ierne" by itself is not.
>> (Although the phonological issues that still have to be officially >> settled are relatively few and marginal, the BPFK should make a >> decision about them at some point, it probably doesn't look very good >> for Lojban that we still haven't made up our mind about them.) > > Can we get Nora involved? She's the third person on this committee.
We should probably make a list of outstanding issues. The ones that come to mind are:
(1) Syllable onsets:
(a) Is the empty onset allowed or not? This affects vowel clusters such as "oa", "aa", etc. in fu'ivla, which require an empty onset for the second vowel.
(b) Are Ci/Cu onsets permitted in fu'ivla? Are CCi/CCu onsets permitted? Are CCCi/CCCu onsets permitted? Are 'i/'u onsets permitted?
(c) Can i/u be onsets if the nucleus is a diphthong? (a.k.a. are triphthongs allowed?)
(2) Syllable codas: how many consonants are allowed in a syllable coda? If more than one, are there any special restrictions?
(3) Syllable nuclei: (I don't think there are any issues here.)
(4) cmevla: Are the constraints for cmevla less strict than for fu'ivla (the ones mentioned above in particular.)
Anything else?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
PierreAbbat · 2010-02-04 11:34 UTC · Tiki post #9536 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> We should probably make a list of outstanding issues. The ones that > come to mind are:
Can you give examples of words affected by these issues? Preferably meaningful or found in the Book.
> (1) Syllable onsets: > > (a) Is the empty onset allowed or not? This affects vowel clusters > such as "oa", "aa", etc. in fu'ivla, which require an empty onset for > the second vowel.
I think it should be. The example "bangrkorea" is in the refgram.
> (b) Are Ci/Cu onsets permitted in fu'ivla? Are CCi/CCu onsets > permitted? Are CCCi/CCCu onsets permitted? Are 'i/'u onsets permitted? > > (c) Can i/u be onsets if the nucleus is a diphthong? (a.k.a. are > triphthongs allowed?)
There's one occurrence of a triphthong in the refgram, but no list of valid triphthongs.
> (2) Syllable codas: how many consonants are allowed in a syllable > coda? If more than one, are there any special restrictions?
I think it should be two, with the restriction that if there are two, the first has to be in the set {r,n,l,m}. My made-up example is "tarksako"; the one in the Book is "bongnanba". If "tarksako" is disallowed, I could go with "traksako" or "tarsako" (or "cinfydenspa").
I tried various versions of these and could not figure out what rule camxes is using. It allows "tarkmako" but not "tarksako", even though both "ks" and "km" are allowed medially but not initially. Similarly "bongnanba" but not "bongbanba".
> (3) Syllable nuclei: (I don't think there are any issues here.) > > (4) cmevla: Are the constraints for cmevla less strict than for > fu'ivla (the ones mentioned above in particular.)
I think that a cmevla should be allowed to end with any consonant cluster that is permitted medially in a brivla.
> Anything else?
damskrima: vlatai rejects this, both camxes and valfendi allow it. Max length of consonant clusters. It is possible to make an infinitely long string of consonants, all pairs of which are initial, such as "ststst...".
What should be counted as a cmavo for purposes of falling off the head of a brivla? I consider it to be any sequence consisting of at least one vowel, possibly with apostrophes between vowels, and possibly preceded by a consonant. Thus "tioprano" breaks up, even though there is no actual cmavo "tio".
Pierre
-- I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales.
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camxes's reaction to some fu'ivla
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:34 UTC · Tiki post #9537 · reply to Tiki post #9507
> On Monday 25 January 2010 08:46:54 Jorge Llambías wrote: > >> (1) Syllable onsets: >> >> (a) Is the empty onset allowed or not? This affects vowel clusters >> such as "oa", "aa", etc. in fu'ivla, which require an empty onset for >> the second vowel. > > I think it should be. The example "bangrkorea" is in the refgram.
Yes, though John Cowan has said he regrets having included it, so we could eventually consider it an erratum.
The argument against such clusters is the very existence of the apostrophe in Lojban: Loglan allowed those clusters, Lojban introduced the apostrophe for the sole purpose of breaking up those clusters, and then Lojban reintroduces those clusters again, such as "ea" to compete against "e'a" and "eia"? It doesn't make a lot of sense.
>> (b) Are Ci/Cu onsets permitted in fu'ivla? Are CCi/CCu onsets >> permitted? Are CCCi/CCCu onsets permitted? Are 'i/'u onsets permitted?
Some examples from jbovlaste:
ab,nie,na sar,gue,ia per,vu,'ui krio,fla
I don't find any example with CCCi/CCCu but I only made a superficial check. camxes should accept the first two, but not the last two.
>> (c) Can i/u be onsets if the nucleus is a diphthong? (a.k.a. are
>> triphthongs allowed?)
>
> There's one occurrence of a triphthong in the refgram, but no list of valid
> triphthongs.
The list in any case is limited to the eight: iai, iau, iei, ioi, uai, uau, uei, uoi. It wouldn't make sense to allow some but not all of them, or to allow any more than those, given the list of diphthongs already allowed. For example allowing "iai" but not "iau" would not make sense, or allowing "ieu" as a triphthong given that "eu" is not allowed as a diphthong would not make sense.
>> (2) Syllable codas: how many consonants are allowed in a syllable >> coda? If more than one, are there any special restrictions? > > I think it should be two, with the restriction that if there are two, the > first has to be in the set {r,n,l,m}. My made-up example is "tarksako"; the > one in the Book is "bongnanba". If "tarksako" is disallowed, I could go > with "traksako" or "tarsako" (or "cinfydenspa"). > > I tried various versions of these and could not figure out what rule camxes is > using. It allows "tarkmako" but not "tarksako", even though both "ks" > and "km" are allowed medially but not initially. Similarly "bongnanba" but > not "bongbanba".
That's odd indeed. It should disallow all of them. It appears as if it was allowing tar,km,a,ko and bon,gn,an,ba but I don't see why. A consonantal syllable should not be able to be followed by a syllable without an onset.
Maybe the implementation of camxes you are using is not based on the current morphology as it appears in http://www.lojban.org/tiki/BPFK+Section:+PEG+Morphology+Algorithm (or maybe I'm missing something there.)
>> (3) Syllable nuclei: (I don't think there are any issues here.) >> >> (4) cmevla: Are the constraints for cmevla less strict than for >> fu'ivla (the ones mentioned above in particular.) > > I think that a cmevla should be allowed to end with any consonant cluster that > is permitted medially in a brivla.
If weird codas are allowed for the last syllable, shouldn't they be allowed for any syllable, rather than just the last one?
>> Anything else?
>
> damskrima: vlatai rejects this, both camxes and valfendi allow it.
Right, three valid syllables: dam,skri,ma
> Max length of consonant clusters. It is possible to make an infinitely long > string of consonants, all pairs of which are initial, such as "ststst...".
camxes does not allow the combination of ts/tc/dz/dj with other consonants in an onset. The only consonant-cluster onsets that it accepts (besides those four) must fall within the pattern:
(s,c,z,j) (p,t,k,f,x,b,d,g,v,m,n) (r,l)
so the maximum length for an onset is three consonants.
> What should be counted as a cmavo for purposes of falling off the head of a > brivla? I consider it to be any sequence consisting of at least one vowel, > possibly with apostrophes between vowels, and possibly preceded by a > consonant. Thus "tioprano" breaks up, even though there is no actual > cmavo "tio".
camxes does the same thing, it considers "tio" a cmavo form even though there are no actual such cmavo. A good argument could be made against considering these as valid cmavo forms though, since otherwise they would seem to be preferrable over the longer CVhV forms. (That is in fact the reason camxes does not consider "tio" a valid rafsi form.)
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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