Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/9501
Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #9501. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.
question about emphasis or something like it
question about emphasis or something like it
lukebergen · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9501
(emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their emphasis.
I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again).
mi'e pafcribequestion about emphasis or something like it
lagejyspa · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9502 · reply to Tiki post #9501
> How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')? > > My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's > just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar > to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci > cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English > mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their > emphasis. > > I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could > probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to > forget it (again). > > mi'e pafcribe >
No, your first thought was exactly correct. ba'e emphasizes the next
word, thereby singling it out as important.
--gejyspaquestion about emphasis or something like it
"Sam Chapin" <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9503 · reply to Tiki post #9501
Original Message-----
From: Luke Bergen <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03 To: <[email protected]> Subject: [lojban] question about emphasis or something like it
How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their emphasis.
I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again).
mi'e pafcribequestion about emphasis or something like it
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9504 · reply to Tiki post #9501
> How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
This is called "focus" in linguistics. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics)
In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html
Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it marks.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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question about emphasis or something like it
John E Clifford <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9505 · reply to Tiki post #9501
________________________________ From: Sam Chapin <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 3:49:35 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: question about emphasis or something like it
I (a beginner) would express this with e.g. {do cusku lu ta li'u .ue} versus {do cusku .ue lu ta li'u}, but (assuming it works at all) that doesn't generalize to surprise on the part of a person other than the speaker. ________________________________
From: Luke Bergen <[email protected]> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:30:03 -0500 To: <[email protected]> Subject: [lojban] question about emphasis or something like it How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that you said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')?
My first thought was {ba'e} but my understanding of {ba'e} is that it's just there for emphasis and carries no additional semantic meaning (similar to how {lo nanmu cu klama lo zarci} is semantically identical to {lo zarci cu se klama lo nanmu}). And as I understand it the two sentences in English mean entirely different things. They are not only different in their emphasis.
I'm not sure how clearly this question is coming through. It could probably have stood to percolate in my head a while more but I don't want to forget it (again).
mi'e pafcribe
question about emphasis or something like it
lukebergen · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9506 · reply to Tiki post #9501
to do this. I never really understood {kau} intuitively.
2010/1/21 Jorge Llambías <[email protected]>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Luke Bergen <[email protected]> > wrote: > > How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said > 'that'" > > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that > you > > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')? > > This is called "focus" in linguistics. See: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics) > > In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can > also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see: > http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html > > Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it > marks. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected] > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. >
>question about emphasis or something like it
Judson Lester <[email protected]> · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9510 · reply to Tiki post #9501
In other words, I assume you'd use some more correct form of:
lo te tavla spaji mi
or
lo nu do tavla spaji mi
drani xu
Judson
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Luke Bergen <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks for the responses. I guess it would make sense that I was unsure > how to do this. I never really understood {kau} intuitively. > > 2010/1/21 Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> > > On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 6:30 PM, Luke Bergen <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > How would lojban differentiate between "I'm surprised that you said >> 'that'" >> > (emphasis on 'that' as opposed to saying 'this') vs "I'm surprised that >> you >> > said 'that'" (emphasis on 'said' as opposed to 'wrote' or 'thought')? >> >> This is called "focus" in linguistics. See: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_(linguistics)<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_%28linguistics%29> >> >> In Lojban you can probably indicate focus with "ba'e", but you can >> also do it with "kau" after a non-question word, see: >> http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c11/s8.html >> >> Also, any attitudinal will generally tend to put some focus on what it >> marks. >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to >> [email protected] >> with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >> you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. >> >>
>question about emphasis or something like it
PierreAbbat · 2010-02-04 11:28 UTC · Tiki post #9511 · reply to Tiki post #9501
> Wouldn't that also be conveyed by place structure? > > In other words, I assume you'd use some more correct form of: > > lo te tavla spaji mi > > or > > lo nu do tavla spaji mi > > drani xu
"cu" between "tavla" and "spaji", else the sentence is just two sumti, or "kei" in the second. Those mean "What (you) talked about surprised me" and "That you talked surprised me". "lo te tavla cu spaji mi" just says that what you talked about surprised me, irrespective of who talked about it.
Pierre
-- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman.
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