Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/9376
Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #9376. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.
interlingua translation and first-order logic
interlingua translation and first-order logic
eyeonus · 2010-02-02 23:57 UTC · Tiki post #9376
this<http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/mactrans.txt>paper, which discusses various methods of machine translation methods. In it it is mentioned that computers are not able to understand first-order (i.e. predicate) logic. Since the paper is nearly 2 decades old, I was wondering if anyone here knows what progress there has been in making it understandable by computers.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
interlingua translation and first-order logic
baisong · 2010-02-02 23:55 UTC · Tiki post #9378 · reply to Tiki post #9376
As for where 'getting computers understanding predicate logic' is, I'm not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog.
Anyhow, as I understand the state of Machine Translation, everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to cite them, except as failures.
Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYZKIeNnTBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g
And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams: http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publications/tutorial2003.pdf
Here's the origin of those two documents, if you're interested in more:
http://www.statmt.org/interlingua translation and first-order logic
John E Clifford <[email protected]> · 2010-02-02 23:57 UTC · Tiki post #9377 · reply to Tiki post #9376
________________________________
From: "Jon "Top Hat" Jones" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, December 22, 2009 1:30:12 AM
Subject: [lojban] interlingua translation and first-order logic
I recently came across this paper, which discusses various methods of machine translation methods. In it it is mentioned that computers are not able to understand first-order (i.e. predicate) logic. Since the paper is nearly 2 decades old, I was wondering if anyone here knows what progress there has been in making it understandable by computers.
--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.
.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
interlingua translation and first-order logic
efidetum · 2010-02-03 00:12 UTC · Tiki post #9379 · reply to Tiki post #9376
Even progress will not prove 2=3 (for instance), hopefully. Nor will it revive Gödel <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del>.
2009/12/21 Jon "Top Hat" Jones <[email protected]>:
> I recently came across this paper, which discusses various methods of
> machine translation methods. In it it is mentioned that computers are not
> able to understand first-order (i.e. predicate) logic. Since the paper is
> nearly 2 decades old, I was wondering if anyone here knows what progress
> there has been in making it understandable by computers.
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
>
interlingua translation and first-order logic
efidetum · 2010-02-03 00:13 UTC · Tiki post #9380 · reply to Tiki post #9376
In a political sense (please forgive this dirty word)? Anyway, there are other (more modern) forms of logic.
> of declarative languages like prolog Which is the utmost a computer is capable of!
> everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic programming algorithms Not in particular.
> instead of essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning I am not supposed to lend out my abacus, am I?
2009/12/21 Oren <[email protected]>
> *sorry if I'm double-posting* > > As for where 'getting computers understanding predicate logic' is, I'm > not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate > logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog. > > Anyhow, as I understand the state of Machine Translation, > everyone is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic > programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in > the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure > out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real > advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of > essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but > when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language > data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just > infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that > purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to > cite them, except as failures. > > Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT: > http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYZKIeNnTBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g > > And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams: > http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publications/tutorial2003.pdf > > Here's the origin of those two documents, if you're interested in more: > http://www.statmt.org/
>interlingua translation and first-order logic
白松 Oren <[email protected]> · 2010-02-03 00:13 UTC · Tiki post #9381 · reply to Tiki post #9376
under Dan Gildea, where they have a close-knit AI, computational linguistics and neurological programs. I worked on a CYK decoder for Chinese English machine translation, and the first several weeks of my research were basically coming to terms with the history Machine translation outlined in that paper; the rise of computational linguistics in the 50s and 60s and then the adaptation to statistical models in the 80s and 90s.
As for where 'getting computers understanding predicate logic' is, I'm not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog.
Anyhow, the state of the program at U of R (which I'm told is pretty advanced) is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to cite them, except as failures.
Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYZKIeNnTBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g
And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams: http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publications/tutorial2003.pdf
mu'o mi'e .ku'us.
On 2009-12-21, Jon "Top Hat" Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> I recently came across
> this<http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/mactrans.txt>paper, which
> discusses various methods of machine translation methods. In it
> it is mentioned that computers are not able to understand first-order (i.e.
> predicate) logic. Since the paper is nearly 2 decades old, I was wondering
> if anyone here knows what progress there has been in making it
> understandable by computers.
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
>
To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected]
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
interlingua translation and first-order logic
白松 Oren <[email protected]> · 2010-02-03 00:13 UTC · Tiki post #9382 · reply to Tiki post #9376
Here's the origin of those two documents, if you're interested in more: http://www.statmt.org/
On 2009-12-21, ç™½æ¾ Oren <[email protected]> wrote: > I had a brief research position at university of Rochester (NY state) > under Dan Gildea, where they have a close-knit AI, computational > linguistics and neurological programs. I worked on a CYK decoder for > Chinese English machine translation, and the first several weeks of my > research were basically coming to terms with the history Machine > translation outlined in that paper; the rise of computational > linguistics in the 50s and 60s and then the adaptation to statistical > models in the 80s and 90s. > > As for where 'getting computers understanding predicate logic' is, I'm > not sure what to say, but I always thought that first-order predicate > logic was the foundation of declarative languages like prolog. > > Anyhow, the state of the program at U of R (which I'm told is pretty > advanced) is investigating hybrid models of various dynamic > programming algorithms to raise BLEU scores-- everyone's invested in > the statistical (i.e. NOT interlingual) approach, and trying to figure > out how to maximize performance. I think that there would be real > advantages to using lojban as an interlingual medium, instead of > essentially trying to imitate humans through machine learning, but > when you have huge corpora of bilingual (or better) natural language > data and virtually no bilingual corpora with lojban, it's just > infeasible. There were a few attempts to use Esperanto for that > purpose a while back (even before this paper), and no one seems to > cite them, except as failures. > > Here's a really good up-to-date intro to MT: > http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYZKIeNnTBe2ZGd4azRrZm1fNTI2ZnpnYmRrZ2g > > And a powerpoint version with lots of diagrams: > http://people.csail.mit.edu/people/koehn/publications/tutorial2003.pdf > > mu'o mi'e .ku'us. > > > On 2009-12-21, Jon "Top Hat" Jones <[email protected]> wrote: >> I recently came across >> this<http://www.lojban.org/files/why-lojban/mactrans.txt>paper, which >> discusses various methods of machine translation methods. In it >> it is mentioned that computers are not able to understand first-order >> (i.e. >> predicate) logic. Since the paper is nearly 2 decades old, I was >> wondering >> if anyone here knows what progress there has been in making it >> understandable by computers. >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >> >
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