Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/9168
Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #9168. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.
malranxi
malranxi
dbrock · 2009-12-07 08:55 UTC · Tiki post #9168
On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 6:30 PM, A. PIEKARSKI <[email protected]> wrote: > > Comments, please. > > malranxi r1=m2 is sarcastic as used/stated by m3 > > from > > mabla: m1 is a derogative connotation/sense of m2 used by m3 > ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3. > > gloss: > sarcastic > caustic sounding > > This assumes that r1 is an abstraction, not a person. > Try as I may, I can't see any use for r1 or r2.
I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
Being ironic in that sense is not very ironic in the sense relevant
to {ranxi}, in my opinion, even though saying the opposite of what you mean is usually a little unexpected.
For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:
In English: dutsku: x1=c1 says x2=c2=d1 to x3=c3 through medium
x4=c4, but means the opposite, namely x5=d2 (text)
In Lojban: lo du'u ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o ko'u dutsku cu du'u ko'a
cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o gi'e ku'i jinvi lo smuni be ko'e na .e ko'u noi dukti ko'e
dutsku1: ironic person dutsku2: ironic utterance dutsku3: audience of irony dutsku4: medium of ironic utterance dutsku5: subtext of ironic utterance
(I'm not sure what goes in dukti3 here --- maybe {lo ka jetnu} or {lo ka smuni} or something ---, but in any case it doesn't have to be in the place structure of {dutsku} itself.)
Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} ---
ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event)
by doing activity x4 (event)
--- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases.
But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.
I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.
--
Daniel Brockman
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malranxi
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-07 08:56 UTC · Tiki post #9171 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> >> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3. > > I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck > of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean.
So: r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics r3: tragic
Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might be "funny" or "poetic justice". No idea what a state in x3 would mean though.
> For "being ironic" in the sense of "saying the literal opposite of > what you mean", I instead suggest {dutsku}:
That might work, but I'm not sure saying the opposite of what you mean is enough for being ironic. "dutsku" sounds like being contrarian rather than being ironic. It may be part of it, but it doesn't seem to be the central part. The central part has to be that the act of saying it is ironic in the sense of ranxi. I would keep "ranxi" in the lujvo rather than the weaker "dukti", so I suggest "raxsku" "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual expectation when someone says something)
I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case.
> Now, _sarcasm_ is primarily a kind of {ckasu} --- > > ckasu: x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 (property/event) > by doing activity x4 (event) > > --- which by itself is probably sufficient in many cases. > > But to specifically indicate "mocking someone by saying the literal > opposite of what you mean", I suggest {dutsku ckasu} or {ckasu > dutsku}, depending on what place strucure you need.
Or "raxyckasu", "ckasu fo lo ranxi", x1 ridicules/mocks/scoffs at x2 about x3 by doing something ironic, contrary to expectation.
> I don't think we need a separate brivla for sarcasm. It's a rather > ill-defined concept anyway; trying to nail down the exact meaning of > "sarcasm" in a lujvo seems a little futile.
I guess we need the context in which the word is used too. One common use is to say "I was just being sarcastic", as a kind of apology for saying something that wasn't well received. In that situation I might go with "mi pu xalbo", or "mi pu ranxi xalbo".
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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malranxi
lagejyspa · 2009-12-07 08:58 UTC · Tiki post #9224 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Daniel Brockman <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> ranxi: r1 is ironic(al)/contrary to expectation r2 in state/property/aspect r3. >> >> I think {ranxi} is about, e.g., a diabetic being run over by a truck >> of insulin --- not so much about saying the opposite of what you mean. > > So: > r1: a diabetic is run over by a truck of insulin > r2: insulin is beneficial to diabetics > r3: tragic > > Would that be right? Other kinds of x3 in different situations might > be "funny" or "poetic justice". > No idea what a state in x3 would mean though.
That's not the way I read it, no. x3 is a state/aspect/property of
x1 that contrary to expectation x2. "tragedy" would be a property of x1 yes, but it's not what's contrary about it. I'd say ranxi is more like: lo flira be do xanri lo si'o(/du'u?) ro jbopre cu melbi kei lo za'i tolmle (no offense, Xorxes. I've never seen you, actually)
--gejyspa
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malranxi
totus · 2009-12-07 08:58 UTC · Tiki post #9225 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to > expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual > expectation when someone says something) > > I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case. > Is this how you would write it?
{c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e} {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
totus
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Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-07 08:58 UTC · Tiki post #9226 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> >> so I suggest "raxsku" >> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to >> expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual >> expectation when someone says something) >> >> I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case. >> > Is this how you would write it? > > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e} > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4}
What's "le go'e"?
I would say:
ko'a cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o .ije la'e di'u ranxi lo nu na cusku lo to'e se smuni be lo se jinvi
As for the x3 of "ranxi", I now think that what characterizes this type of irony has to be something like "intentional", or "intentional for effect", as opposed to ironic situations that just happen to be ironic unintentionally.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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malranxi
totus · 2009-12-07 08:58 UTC · Tiki post #9228 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> From: Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 10:09:57 AM > Subject: [lojban] Re: [jbovlaste] malranxi > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 11:40 AM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > > >> so I suggest "raxsku" > >> "x1 says x2 to x3 via medium x4, which is ironic/contrary to > >> expectation (that x1 would say what they really mean, the usual > >> expectation when someone says something) > >> > >> I'm not sure what the x3 aspect of ranxi would be in this case. > >> > > Is this how you would write it? > > > > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e} > > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4} > > What's "le go'e"?
Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }.
> > I would say: > > ko'a cusku ko'e ko'i ko'o .ije la'e di'u ranxi lo nu na cusku lo to'e > se smuni be lo se jinvi > > As for the x3 of "ranxi", I now think that what characterizes this > type of irony has to be something like "intentional", or "intentional > for effect", as opposed to ironic situations that just happen to be > ironic unintentionally. > Could be. But in any case it gets dropped in the formulation of the lujvo.
totus
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Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-07 08:59 UTC · Tiki post #9234 · reply to Tiki post #9168
>> > >> > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e} >> > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4} >> >> What's "le go'e"? > > Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }.
Then "le go'e" is c1, but that doesn't make sense. Even if you meant "le se go'e", I still don't think that works because the expectation is not really that most people have a meaning for c2, but rather that people normally say what they mean.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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totus · 2009-12-07 08:59 UTC · Tiki post #9240 · reply to Tiki post #9168
> >> > {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 .ijebo lonu go'i cu ranxi lonu so'eda tersmu le go'e} > >> > {c1 raxsku c2 c3 c4} > >> > >> What's "le go'e"? > > > > Well, both {go'i} and {go'e} were meant to refer to {c1 cusku c2 c3 c4 }. > > Then "le go'e" is c1, but that doesn't make sense. Even if you meant > "le se go'e", I still don't think that works because the expectation > is not really that most people have a meaning for c2, but rather that > people normally say what they mean. >
Actually, I should have written {lonu go'e} in place of {le go'e}. In any case I now agree with your your last comment.
ki'e totus
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