Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/9032

Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #9032. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.

danfu dandu danlu

danfu dandu danlu

lukebergen · 2009-12-05 12:57 UTC · Tiki post #9032

While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and

{danlu}. When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention of making the different words sound distinctive? I know that one of the main reasons for lojban's split from loglan was that users wanted a stable * spoken* logical language. Given that, I'm surprise that "easy to distinguish words in a noisy environment" wasn't one of the goals of lojban. One of the more annoying things about english for me is that so many words sound similar.

Maybe instead of choosing gismu based on some (rarely helpful) metric of how much the common languages used particular letters, maybe if we/they had chosen to spread the phonemes out with as wide of a distribution possible that would have been more useful (as well as screw up any potential for poetry I guess).

Clearly it is way to late in the game to change the gismu. I bring this up

only because I'm curious if the LLG had considered this.

danfu dandu danlu

Minimiscience · 2009-12-05 12:57 UTC · Tiki post #9033 · reply to Tiki post #9032

de'i li 22 pi'e 10 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Luke Bergen .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.

> While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and > {danlu}. When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention of > making the different words sound distinctive? .skamyxatra

There was an intention, and Lojban was in fact designed so that the {gismu} sound distinctive, just not (apparently) by your personal standards of "distinctive." (Also, you missed "{dansu}.") See item 4 of the {gismu} creation algorithm in section 4.14 of the CLL for more information.

mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.

-- jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi

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danfu dandu danlu

lukebergen · 2009-12-05 12:57 UTC · Tiki post #9034 · reply to Tiki post #9032

I see. I haven't read chapter 4 in quite some time. Maybe I should go back

over it again. I guess it can't be helped that some words will sound similar (I'm not even going to bring up similarity of cmavo).

Another interesting one I've been tripped up on: cikre, ckire. They don't so much sound the same as much as they look the same.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Minimiscience <[email protected]>wrote:

> de'i li 22 pi'e 10 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Luke Bergen .fy. cusku zoi > skamyxatra. > > While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and > > {danlu}. When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention > of > > making the different words sound distinctive? > .skamyxatra > > There was an intention, and Lojban was in fact designed so that the {gismu} > sound distinctive, just not (apparently) by your personal standards of > "distinctive." (Also, you missed "{dansu}.") See item 4 of the {gismu} > creation algorithm in section 4.14 of the CLL for more information. > > mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > > -- > jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected] > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. >

>

danfu dandu danlu

John E Clifford <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 12:57 UTC · Tiki post #9035 · reply to Tiki post #9032

The cmavo space is essentially full, so has the minimum distinction and thus the maximal possibilities for confusion. It is helped only by a slight attempt to put very similar words in radically different categories, so unlikely to occur in the same environment. The attempts at spreading built into the algorithm were not well thought through (though better than JCB's none). On the other hand, getting 1400 gismu-shaped strings that are maximally distinct is something akin to the three-body problem, where every new datum forces reconfiguration of all those already aboard. So, talk louder, repeat yourself, say it in different words, etc. Noisy channels are the problem for every medium and every language.

________________________________ From: Luke Bergen <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, October 22, 2009 4:16:00 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: danfu dandu danlu

I see. I haven't read chapter 4 in quite some time. Maybe I should go back over it again. I guess it can't be helped that some words will sound similar (I'm not even going to bring up similarity of cmavo).

Another interesting one I've been tripped up on: cikre, ckire. They don't so much sound the same as much as they look the same.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Minimiscience <[email protected]> wrote:

de'i li 22 pi'e 10 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Luke Bergen .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > >> While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and >>> {danlu}. When the LLG was putting lojban together was there no intention of >>> making the different words sound distinctive? >.skamyxatra > >>There was an intention, and Lojban was in fact designed so that the {gismu} >>sound distinctive, just not (apparently) by your personal standards of >>"distinctive." (Also, you missed "{dansu}.") See item 4 of the {gismu} >>creation algorithm in section 4.14 of the CLL for more information. > >>mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > >>-- >>jicmu traji zifre fa loi remna lonu senpi > > >>To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected] >>with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if >>you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. > >

danfu dandu danlu

PierreAbbat · 2009-12-05 12:57 UTC · Tiki post #9041 · reply to Tiki post #9032

On Thursday 22 October 2009 16:59:18 Luke Bergen wrote:

> While studying vocab I noticed the existence of {danfu}, {dandu}, and > {danlu}.

I don't find those confusing. The ones I continually mess up are the words that both sound and mean the similar: ratcu/ractu, garna/grana, mulno/culno, karce/carce/marce, stizu/stuzi (some uses of "seat" are more stuzi than stizu). I also confuse "jivna" and "javni" because their rafsi could have been each other's, so a lujvo like "jvojva" doesn't help me remember whether "rule" is "jivna" or "javni".

As to cmavo: some groups, like BAI and TAhE, are scattered over cmavo space, while others, like LE and ZI and VI, are arranged regularly (with the exception that I made several interrogative conjunctions break the rules). One sub-selma'o that I think should have been scattered instead of arranged is the ko'a-series. They differ only in the last vowel, which is normally unstressed, and before a brivla like "krataigo" can't be stressed unless a pause comes after it, so it's easy to mishear e.g. "ko'o" as "ko'u". Of course Lojban isn't the only language with this problem; Portuguese has "ele" and "ela".

Pierre

-- li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

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