Talk:Tiki forum archive/Forum 5/8911
Source: 2013 Tiki forum 5, thread #8911. Original authors, UTC times, post IDs, and reply-parent IDs are preserved. This is an archive, not an active article discussion.
Translating "even"
Translating "even"
Squark Rabinovich <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8911
How would you translate to lojan
"Even John liked the dessert."
What about
"John liked even the dessert."
Thx!
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Translating "even"
PierreAbbat · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8912 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> Hey eveyone. > > How would you translate to lojan > > "Even John liked the dessert." > > What about > > "John liked even the dessert."
la djan. ji'asai nelci le titydja (or whatever you call a dessert) .i la djan. nelci le titydja ji'asai
mu'omi'e .pier.
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Translating "even"
baisong · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8913 · reply to Tiki post #8911
because "even john" and "even the cake" imply that there are other people/ other dishes that have already been mentioned (or assumed), and your emphasizing this additional thing.
but what about "even" as in
'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
or
'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled prerequisite, before emphasizing that an [even] earlier prerequisite is unmet. I guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that you could use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half of the above phrases)? There's probably more than one way...
la .ku'us.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 06:19, Pierre Abbat <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday 28 September 2009 16:22:54 Squark Rabinovich wrote: > > Hey eveyone. > > > > How would you translate to lojan > > > > "Even John liked the dessert." > > > > What about > > > > "John liked even the dessert." > > la djan. ji'asai nelci le titydja (or whatever you call a dessert) > .i la djan. nelci le titydja ji'asai > > mu'omi'e .pier. > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected] > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. > >
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Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8914 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> > but what about "even" as in > > 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
This seems to be "ji'asai" too:
"lo re ji'asai prenu na kakne lo nu muvgau .i ianai do nonkansa kakne"
"Two people" is an extreme case, in addition to the "one person" case.
"Two" could also be an extreme case coming from the other direction, as in "even two people won't fit here, let alone three". "Even two", or "re ji'asai" doesn't say from which way "two" is the extreme case, that has to be worked out from the context.
> or > > 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
"ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e"
Of the things she was not, "being awake" is the most encompassing. (If she was not awake, there are many other things she was therefore also not.) Being awake would be the least encompassing thing in a positive context, but in a negative context this is reversed.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
stevo · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8915 · reply to Tiki post #8911
[email protected] writes:
> what about "even" as in
>
> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
>
> or
>
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>
> Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled
> prerequisite, before emphasizing that an [even] earlier prerequisite is unmet. I
> guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that you could
> use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half of the
> above phrases)? There's probably more than one way...
>
> la .ku'us.
>
How would you paraphrase it in English without using "even"?
mu'o mi'e stevonTranslating "even"
baisong · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8917 · reply to Tiki post #8911
emotion, without an "even."
@all:
Let me make sure I'm understanding this right; in the following sentence,
"ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e"
"ji'asai" marks the preceding "na cikna" as additional and emphasized, and "ji'aru'e" marks "na xanka" as additional, and de-emphasized?
I'm confused why we're still "adding" the second half (to de-emphasize it, I suppose) ...is there a way to use "ji'anai" or avoid using "ji'a" entirely?
ki'e ki'e ki'e
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 11:07, <[email protected]> wrote:
> In a message dated 9/28/2009 21:28:15 Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > > what about "even" as in > > 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?' > > or > > 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.' > > Both of these phrases seem to use even to suggest some unfulfilled > prerequisite, before emphasizing that an [even] earlier prerequisite is > unmet. I guess what I'm asking is, what's a 'subtractive' counterpart that > you could use to emphasize the inadequacy of something (in the second half > of the above phrases)? There's probably more than one way... > > la .ku'us. > > > > How would you paraphrase it in English without using "even"? > > mu'o mi'e stevon
--
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Translating "even"
stevo · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8918 · reply to Tiki post #8911
[email protected] writes:
> 'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?'
> or
> 'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.'
>
Here are my attempts at paraphrasing these two utterances. 1) Since two people aren't enough to move it, (surprise!) how could fewer people (or one person) do it?
Or generalizing: Even X can't Y, so how could less-than-X Y? (or in cases of opposite extreme: ... how could more-than-X Y?) Since X is insufficient for Y to be true, it's surprising and doubtful that less than X would be sufficient for Y to be true.
2) (#2 also contains the idiom "let alone", which should be dealt with separately.) She was not awake, but she would have to be awake in order for her to be concerned.
A necessary condition of being concerned is being awake. This necessary condition is not met so there can be no question of being concerned. Y requires X. X is not true, so Y is not true.
Comments?
mu'o mi'e stevonTranslating "even"
John E Clifford <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8919 · reply to Tiki post #8911
________________________________
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:02:14 AM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Translating "even"
In a message dated 9/28/2009 23:58:18 Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
'Even two people can't move it, how could just you alone?' >or >'She wasn't even awake, let alone concerned.' >
Here are my attempts at paraphrasing these two utterances. 1) Since two people aren't enough to move it, (surprise!) how could fewer people (or one person) do it?
Or generalizing: Even X can't Y, so how could less-than-X Y? (or in cases of opposite extreme: ... how could more-than-X Y?) Since X is insufficient for Y to be true, it's surprising and doubtful that less than X would be sufficient for Y to be true.
2) (#2 also contains the idiom "let alone", which should be dealt with separately.) She was not awake, but she would have to be awake in order for her to be concerned.
A necessary condition of being concerned is being awake. This necessary condition is not met so there can be no question of being concerned. Y requires X. X is not true, so Y is not true.
Comments?
mu'o mi'e stevon
Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8920 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> > Let me make sure I'm understanding this right; in the following sentence, > > "ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i na xanka ji'aru'e" > > "ji'asai" marks the preceding "na cikna" as additional and emphasized,
Just "cikna".
> and > "ji'aru'e" marks "na xanka" as additional, and de-emphasized?
Just "xanka".
This is a list of things she isn't:
- cikna - xanka - ...
The extreme case is "cikna": given that she isn't "cikna", you can pretty much figure out that she isn't "xanka" either.
> I'm confused why we're still "adding" the second half (to de-emphasize it, I > suppose) ...is there a way to use "ji'anai" or avoid using "ji'a" entirely?
I was mainly concerned with the "even" part. "She wasn't even awake". That presupposes there are other things she wasn't, and indicates that "awake" is the extreme case. The "let alone concerned" is a clarification of what other things I'm thinking about, so it is something else I'm adding to the list of things she wasn't, but it's a less extreme case than "cikna", because it's already covered by that.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8921 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it. Everyone else > liked it. It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like > things of this sort).
"Surprise" is often invoked when dealing with "even", but it is easily defeasible. "The cake was so good that it was no surprise to anyone that even John liked it." We can't really reexpress that by saying that it is surprising that John liked it. Extreme cases are often the most surprising, so "even" can indirectly indicate a surprising case in that sense, but I don't think surprise is part of the intrinsic meaning of "even". In the case of "She is not concerned. In fact, she is not even awake." there need not be any surprise involved either.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
Ivo Doko <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8922 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> I was mainly concerned with the "even" part. "She wasn't even awake". > That presupposes there are other things she wasn't, and indicates that > "awake" is the extreme case.
Actually, I find "she wasn't even awake" to mean that for her to be something (whatever it is that's revealed she was not in the previous sentence), one of the most important prerequisites is for her to be awake. That has nothing to do with "awake" being any kind of extreme case, although it may tangentially imply that there are other less important prerequisites for her to be that something, besides being awake.
I hope I managed to word that in a sensible and understandable manner.
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Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8923 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> > Actually, I find "she wasn't even awake" to mean that for her to be > something (whatever it is that's revealed she was not in the previous > sentence), one of the most important prerequisites is for her to be > awake.
Right.
> That has nothing to do with "awake" being any kind of extreme > case, although it may tangentially imply that there are other less > important prerequisites for her to be that something, besides being > awake.
"one of the most important prerequisites" means an extreme prerequisite. Being awake is an extreme in the list of prerequisites. Other prerequisites may be less extreme.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
stevo · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8924 · reply to Tiki post #8911
[email protected] writes:
> Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it. Everyone
> else liked it. It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually
> like things of this sort).
>
>
I suspected as much, but I haven't studied logic very much.
mu'o mi'e stevonTranslating "even"
John E Clifford <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8925 · reply to Tiki post #8911
Original Message ----
From: Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:05:40 PM Subject: [lojban] Re: Translating "even"
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:41 AM, John E Clifford <[email protected]> wrote: > Standard logic crap from fifty years ago now: John liked it. Everyone else > liked it. It is sueprising that John liked it (John does not usually like > things of this sort).
"Surprise" is often invoked when dealing with "even", but it is easily defeasible. "The cake was so good that it was no surprise to anyone that even John liked it." We can't really reexpress that by saying that it is surprising that John liked it. Extreme cases are often the most surprising, so "even" can indirectly indicate a surprising case in that sense, but I don't think surprise is part of the intrinsic meaning of "even". In the case of "She is not concerned. In fact, she is not even awake." there need not be any surprise involved either.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help.Translating "even"
Ivo Doko <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8926 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> "one of the most important prerequisites" means an extreme > prerequisite.
"One of the most important prerequisites" means exactly that - *one of* the most important prerequisites. An extreme prerequisite is *the* most important prerequisite. If "one of the most important" equals "extreme" that means that there are multiple extremes in one direction, which is not the case.
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Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8927 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> "One of the most important prerequisites" means exactly that - *one > of* the most important prerequisites. An extreme prerequisite is *the* > most important prerequisite. If "one of the most important" equals > "extreme" that means that there are multiple extremes in one > direction, which is not the case.
"Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case, but Jane to be an even more extreme case.
Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add even more extreme cases.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
Ivo Doko <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8928 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> "Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most > extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so > good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case, > but Jane to be an even more extreme case. > > Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter > of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add > even more extreme cases.
How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not extreme.
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Translating "even"
lukebergen · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8929 · reply to Tiki post #8911
technically you can't have varying degrees of "extreme"ness. But in day to day english people say things like "extreme cold". Does that mean that it's the coldest that it is physically possible to get? No, just that it's really really freaking cold.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 4:51 PM, Ivo Doko <[email protected]> wrote:
> 2009/9/29 Jorge Llambías <[email protected]>: > > "Even" only indicates an extreme case, not necessarily the most > > extreme of all. You can say "Even John likes this cake. Why, it's so > > good, even Jane likes it." This requires John to be an extreme case, > > but Jane to be an even more extreme case. > > > > Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter > > of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add > > even more extreme cases. > > > How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not > extreme. > > > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [email protected] > with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if > you're really stuck, send mail to [email protected] for help. >
>Translating "even"
Jorge Llambías <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8930 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> > How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not extreme.
"Extreme" can have an absolute or a relative sense. See for example: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/extreme senses 2, 4, 6. "utmost or exceedingly great".
In any case, we don't need to quibble about the definition of "extreme". The point is that "even X" requires X to be an outlier, but it usually also allows another "even Y" where Y is even more of an outlier than X.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
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Translating "even"
Ivo Doko <[email protected]> · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8931 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> In any case, we don't need to quibble about the definition of > "extreme". The point is that "even X" requires X to be an outlier, but > it usually also allows another "even Y" where Y is even more of an > outlier than X.
Outlier is a word I approve of. :)
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Translating "even"
stevo · 2009-12-05 11:32 UTC · Tiki post #8932 · reply to Tiki post #8911
[email protected] writes:
> How can there be extreme and "more" extreme? It's either extreme or not
> extreme.
>
"Extreme" doesn't imply 'maximum'. If you surpass an extreme, you have a new level of extreme that is more than the surpassed level, which is still extreme.
mu'o mi'e stevonTranslating "even"
stevo · 2009-12-05 11:33 UTC · Tiki post #8933 · reply to Tiki post #8911
[email protected] writes:
> I guess technically "extreme" means "the most that is possible" so
> technically you can't have varying degrees of "extreme"ness. But in day to day
> english people say things like "extreme cold". Does that mean that it's the
> coldest that it is physically possible to get? No, just that it's really
> really freaking cold.
>
Saying "technically" versus "day to day" is another way of referring to different contexts. The word means different things in different contexts, and the two shouldn't be confused or conflated.
mu'o mi'e stevonTranslating "even"
PierreAbbat · 2009-12-05 11:33 UTC · Tiki post #8934 · reply to Tiki post #8911
> Similarly: "She was not concerned. She was not even awake. As a matter > of fact, she was not even alive." So it is usually possible to add > even more extreme cases.
In that case, we could say "ko'a na xanka .i ko'a na cikna ji'asai .i ko'a na jmive ji'acai".
Pierre
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