Talk:BPFK Section: Relational sumtcita
> !! Examples of te du'i Usage > > re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi frica lo ka skari > Two groups, of five cards which are equal in color, of different colors.
frica fi lo ka skari
Not very logical though. Where would the {ke'a} go? Probably {fricysimxu}, and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}
> !! Examples of mu'u Usage > > Artificial: > > mi nelci lo titla cidja mu'u lo titnanba > I enjoy sweet foods, such as cake.
{be mu'u}
> da'i mi catra do te mu'u lo'i zekri > Suppose I kill you, this is an example of a crime.
I think that's more like: "Suppose I kill you as an example of a crime." The {te mu'u} is not outside the scope of {da'i}.
> !! Examples of pa'u Usage > > Artificial: > > mi finti le minji pa'u lo danlu selci > I've invented this machine which includes animal cells.
{be pa'u} (Are the animal cells part of the machine of part of me, or both?)
> !! Examples of se pa'u Usage > > Artificial: > > mi zbasu lo gurni pesxu se pa'u lo titnanba > I make dough as a part of cake.
{be se pa'u}
> !! Examples of pa'a Usage > > pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu se pa'a la xavier > What do you think of me replacing my all-black close with all white clothes, like Xavier?
{pa'a tu'a la xavier}?
I suppose Xavier could not be parallel to the clothes, but maybe it could be a brand or something?
> !! Examples of te pa'a Usage > > Artificial: > > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti > I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness.
s/pe/ne
> !! Examples of se cau Usage > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled.
s/ro/lo
> !! Examples of ra'a Usage
>
> mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le do jufra}.
What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not clear what {birti lo cukta} means.
> !! Examples of li'e Usage > > Artificial: > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan. > I go to the store preceeded by/following John.
After going to John?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Fri, May 06, 2005 at 08:51:25PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > !! Examples of te du'i Usage > > > > re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi frica lo ka skari > > Two groups, of five cards which are equal in color, of different colors. > > frica fi lo ka skari > > Not very logical though. Where would the {ke'a} go? > Probably {fricysimxu},
How about:
re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo nu frica fi lo ka skari
> and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...}
Why?
> > !! Examples of pa'u Usage > > > > Artificial: > > > > mi finti le minji pa'u lo danlu selci > > I've invented this machine which includes animal cells. > > {be pa'u}
Yep.
> (Are the animal cells part of the machine of part of me, or both?)
The former.
> > !! Examples of te pa'a Usage > > > > Artificial: > > > > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti > > I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness. > > s/pe/ne
Why?
> > !! Examples of se cau Usage > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled. > > s/ro/lo
Why?
> > !! Examples of ra'a Usage > > > > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra > > I am not certain what book your sentence is about. > > That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le > do jufra}. > > What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence > is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not > clear what {birti lo cukta} means.
How about tu'a ma poi cukta?
> > !! Examples of li'e Usage > > > > Artificial: > > > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan. > > I go to the store preceeded by/following John. > > After going to John?
What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is non-temporal.
-Robin
On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > How about: > > re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo nu > frica fi lo ka skari > > > and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...} > > Why?
because the two together are mutually different, you can't say of each that it is mutually different.
> > > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti > > > I make cookies and not cake, the difference between them being size and softness. > > > > s/pe/ne > > Why?
I took the comment as explicative, not restrictive.
> > > !! Examples of se cau Usage > > > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo > > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more skilled. > > > > s/ro/lo > > Why?
Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if they fall every time?
> > > !! Examples of ra'a Usage
> > >
> > > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
> > > I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
> >
> > That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se srana le
> > do jufra}.
> >
> > What you have means something like: "what book which your sentence
> > is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because it is not
> > clear what {birti lo cukta} means.
>
> How about tu'a ma poi cukta?
The Lojban is still a question, the English is not.
> > > !! Examples of li'e Usage > > > > > > Artificial: > > > > > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan. > > > I go to the store preceeded by/following John. > > > > After going to John? > > What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is non-temporal.
But why does li'e indicate that {mi} follows {la djan} and not that {le zarci} follows {la djan}? Wouln't that have to be {mi ne li'e la djan}?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > How about: > > > > re loi mu karda be te du'i lo ka skari be'o poi ke'a simxu lo > > nu frica fi lo ka skari > > > > > and it should be {lo re loi mu karda...} > > > > Why? > > because the two together are mutually different, you can't say of > each that it is mutually different.
Ah, indeed. I have a mild preference for "loi re lo mu"; any problem there?
> > > > mi zbasu lo cinla titnanba .e nai lo titnanba vu'o pe te > > > > pa'a lo ni barda .e lo ni ranti I make cookies and not > > > > cake, the difference between them being size and softness. > > > > > > s/pe/ne > > > > Why? > > I took the comment as explicative, not restrictive.
- nod*
I still have trouble with that difference, as you're well aware.
> > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage > > > > > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo > > > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more > > > > skilled. > > > > > > s/ro/lo > > > > Why? > > Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if > they fall every time?
Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau. They can become more skilled only if they are not without every event of falling.
> > > > !! Examples of ra'a Usage > > > > > > > > mi na birti ma poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra > > > > I am not certain what book your sentence is about. > > > > > > That would be {mi na birti lo du'u ma kau poi cukta cu se > > > srana le do jufra}. > > > > > > What you have means something like: "what book which your > > > sentence is about am I not certain?" Not very clear, because > > > it is not clear what {birti lo cukta} means. > > > > How about tu'a ma poi cukta? > > The Lojban is still a question, the English is not.
tu'a ma kau poi cukta, then.
> > > > !! Examples of li'e Usage > > > > > > > > Artificial: > > > > > > > > mi klama le zarci li'e la .djan. > > > > I go to the store preceeded by/following John. > > > > > > After going to John? > > > > What? No, I am following John physically. li'e is > > non-temporal. > > But why does li'e indicate that {mi} follows {la djan} and not > that {le zarci} follows {la djan}? Wouln't that have to be {mi ne > li'e la djan}?
Hmm. OK.
-Robin
On 5/22/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage > > > > > > > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu binxo > > > > > Without any event of falling, climbers do not become more > > > > > skilled. > > > > > > > > s/ro/lo > > > > > > Why? > > > > Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only if > > they fall every time? > > Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau. They > can become more skilled only if they are not without every event of > falling.
Tthere are too many conventions about scope of negations around and we haven't voted on that yet, but to me that sentence says that every falling is such that without it the climbers don't become more skilled. Even if you take {na} to have scope over {ro}, it would say that not every fall is such that without it climbers become more skilled. Neither reading corresponds to the English, which requires the {ro} to be in a subordinate bridi.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Sun, May 22, 2005 at 05:53:29PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 5/22/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 10:57:36PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell > > > wrote: > > > > > > !! Examples of se cau Usage > > > > > > > > > > > > se cau ro nu farlu kei lo cpare cu na certu zmadu > > > > > > binxo Without any event of falling, climbers do not > > > > > > become more skilled. > > > > > > > > > > s/ro/lo > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > Because {ro} means "every". They can become more skilled only > > > if they fall every time? > > > > Umm, *without* every event of falling. It's in the se cau. > > They can become more skilled only if they are not without every > > event of falling. > > Tthere are too many conventions about scope of negations around > and we haven't voted on that yet, but to me that sentence says > that every falling is such that without it the climbers don't > become more skilled. Even if you take {na} to have scope over > {ro}, it would say that not every fall is such that without it > climbers become more skilled. Neither reading corresponds to the > English, which requires the {ro} to be in a subordinate bridi.
Fine, fine; fixed. Now go vote. :-)
-Robin
> !! Examples of ka'i Usage > > Artificial: > > mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma > I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna
> !! Examples of se ka'i Usage > > Artificial: > > mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
{mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}
> !! Examples of me'e Usage > > mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis > I've been watching Buffy.
Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, ISO-8859-1 Jorge Llambas wrote:
>> !! Examples of ka'i Usage >> >> Artificial: >> >> mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma >> I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick. > > mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna > >> !! Examples of se ka'i Usage >> >> Artificial: >> >> mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do >> I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > {mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu} > >> !! Examples of me'e Usage >> >> mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis >> I've been watching Buffy. > > Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?
And shouldn't it be {zo byfis} instead of {la byfis}? -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/
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On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 12:10:27PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > !! Examples of ka'i Usage > > > > Artificial: > > > > mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma > > I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick. > > mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna
Whoops. Thanks.
> > !! Examples of se ka'i Usage > > > > Artificial: > > > > mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do > > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > {mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu}
cu isn't necessary, is it?
I'm putting it in anyways; just curious.
Huh. It is, actually, otherwise it's (le (te selplijibri be mi) (cpacu) )
> > !! Examples of me'e Usage > > > > mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis > > I've been watching Buffy. > > Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"?
Not the way my friends say it. :-)
-Robin
On Wed, Jun 08, 2005 at 10:48:44AM -0500, Adam D. Lopresto wrote: > On Wed, 8 Jun 2005, ISO-8859-1 Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > >>!! Examples of ka'i Usage > >> > >>Artificial: > >> > >>mi ritli ne ka'i le mi mamta cuxna pa jatna mu'i lo nu mi bilma > >>I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick. > > > >mi ne ka'i le mi mamta cu ritli cuxna > > > >>!! Examples of se ka'i Usage > >> > >>Artificial: > >> > >>mi cpacu ne se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi le jemna do > >>I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > > >{mi ne se ka'i ... cu cpacu} > > > >>!! Examples of me'e Usage > >> > >>mi pu viska le se tivni be me'e la byfis > >>I've been watching Buffy. > > > >Shouldn't that be "the TV program called 'Buffy'"? > > And shouldn't it be {zo byfis} instead of {la byfis}?
Indeed.
-Robin
Small comments/suggestions:
- na viska le munje te ki'i lo ka purci ku ba la'e de'u
- Unseeable is the world of the past after this.
s/Unseeable/Unseen/
- mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o
- I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage.
There should be no space in #$12,000", I believe.
- 'mi nelci lo xunre karce kai ti
- I like red cars, like that one.
Missing apostrophe in the example, so it does not render as italic.
- pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu se pa'a la xavier
- What do you think of me replacing my all-black clothes with all white clothes, like Xavier?
Either "all-black" and "all-white", or "all black" and "all white".
- za'a zo bancu cu brivla le'a le remoi
- I observe that "bancu" is a brival of the second type.
s/brival/brivla/
- ka'e rinka lo nu do krici lo du'u lo xanri loldi cu zasti se ba'i lo to'e xanri condi kevna
- It is capable of causing you to believe there is an imaginary floor instead of a non-imaginary deep hole.
I think the translation here had square brackets around "It is", but that causes a broken external link on Tiki.
- le merko gugde be ka'i le merko gugde jatna cu xusra lo du'u jamna
- The United States, as represented by the president, declares war.
This has no bearing on the example (it could be used in a fictional context), but technically, the POTUS cannot declare war, only the US Senate.
- sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu bajra
- S helpfully want to D as fast as a donkey can run.
s/want/went/
-arj
On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 03:25:05AM -0700, [email protected] wrote: > # mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o > # I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage. > There should be no space in #$12,000", I believe.
I prefer it with the space.
> # pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu se pa'a la xavier > # What do you think of me replacing my all-black clothes with all white clothes, like Xavier? > Either "all-black" and "all-white", or "all black" and "all white".
The former.
> # le merko gugde be ka'i le merko gugde jatna cu xusra lo du'u jamna > # The United States, as represented by the president, declares war. > This has no bearing on the example (it could be used in a > fictional context), but technically, the POTUS cannot declare war, > only the US Senate.
Well, if you can come up with a good term for "senate"... :-)
Besides, as of a few years ago, this is no longer true, remember?
All others fixed as suggested.
-Robin
>Examples of te ki'i Usage > >na viska le munje te ki'i lo ka purci ku ba la'e de'u >Unseen is the world of the past after this.
I don't understand this either in Lojban or in English, but if it's "the world of the past" it seems that {be te ki'i} would be closer.
Now, {te ki'i} tags a two place relationship, so presumably it's {lo ka ce'u purci ce'u}. {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} would be not the world of the past but the world in which things are in the past of other things, i.e. the opposite of a timeless world. The usual world we live in is a world with the purci relationship. {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} could refer to our ordinary time-ordered world.
> Examples of du'i Usage > > mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o > I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage.
Why is the $12,000 the worth of the televisions rather than how much I charged for moving them into storage? If it's the televisions, it should be {lo tivni ne du'i lo rupnu ...}
> Examples of pa'u Usage > >mi finti le minji pa'u be lo danlu selci >I've invented this machine which includes animal cells.
s/pa'u be/be pa'u
> Examples of pa'a Usage
>
>pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu
> tu'a se pa'a la xavier
>What do you think of me replacing my all-black clothes
>with all-white clothes, like Xavier?
s/basti/bastygau fi ... fe ... s/tu'a se pa'a/pa'a tu'a
> Examples of ma'e Usage
>
>mi pilno lo rocki lo nu finti lo larcu dacti kei ma'e ta
>I use rock to create objects of art, including that one over there.
That rock or that object of art over there?
>Examples of ra'a Usage
>
>mi na birti tu'a ma kau poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
>I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
>
>le nuntalyli'u be la .odiseus. cu lisri lo nu klama lo se xabju kei
>la .xomer. ra'a le cukta be ro da bei la .xomer.
>The adventure of Odysseus is a story about going home by Homer >and
is pertained to by The Collected Works Of Homer.
{ra'a} seems to be duplicated here and in Epistemology sumtcita.
> Examples of se li'e Usage > >mi klama le zarci se li'e la .djan. >I go to the store preceeding/being followed by John.
{mi ne se li'e la djan}
> Examples of te li'e Usage > >mi'o bajra te li'e lo cmalu bi'o lo barda >We ran in order from smallest to largest.
{mi'o ne te li'e ...}
>Examples of ka'i Usage > >mi ritli cuxna pa jatna ka'i le mi mamti mu'i lo nu mi bilma >I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
s/mamti/mamta
I don't understand the sentence though. Whom does the mother represent?
> Examples of se ka'i Usage > > mi cpacu le jemna do se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
You act on behalf of my boss?
> la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te ka'i lo tolvajni po'o
> Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only when representing
> at unimportant events.
{xructciof} will not be accepted by the current morphology.
> Examples of rai Usage
>
> mi pajni le nu jivna rai la .kim.
> I adjucated the competition that was won by Kim.
s/adjucated/adjudicated
Not sure why {rai la kim} would mean that Kim won though. Could it be the competition in which Kim participated the most?
>Examples of se rai Usage
>
>sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu bajra
>S helpfully went to D as fast as a donkey can run.
- The* donkey, S's donkey, in fact.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
>Examples of te ki'i Usage > >na viska le munje te ki'i lo ka purci ku ba la'e de'u >Unseen is the world of the past after this.
I don't understand this either in Lojban or in English, but if it's "the world of the past" it seems that {be te ki'i} would be closer.
Now, {te ki'i} tags a two place relationship, so presumably it's {lo ka ce'u purci ce'u}. {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} would be not the world of the past but the world in which things are in the past of other things, i.e. the opposite of a timeless world. The usual world we live in is a world with the purci relationship. {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} could refer to our ordinary time-ordered world.
> Examples of du'i Usage > > mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o > I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage.
Why is the $12,000 the worth of the televisions rather than how much I charged for moving them into storage? If it's the televisions, it should be {lo tivni ne du'i lo rupnu ...}
> Examples of pa'u Usage > >mi finti le minji pa'u be lo danlu selci >I've invented this machine which includes animal cells.
s/pa'u be/be pa'u
> Examples of pa'a Usage
>
>pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu
> tu'a se pa'a la xavier
>What do you think of me replacing my all-black clothes
>with all-white clothes, like Xavier?
s/basti/bastygau fi ... fe ... s/tu'a se pa'a/pa'a tu'a
> Examples of ma'e Usage
>
>mi pilno lo rocki lo nu finti lo larcu dacti kei ma'e ta
>I use rock to create objects of art, including that one over there.
That rock or that object of art over there?
>Examples of ra'a Usage
>
>mi na birti tu'a ma kau poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra
>I am not certain what book your sentence is about.
>
>le nuntalyli'u be la .odiseus. cu lisri lo nu klama lo se xabju kei
>la .xomer. ra'a le cukta be ro da bei la .xomer.
>The adventure of Odysseus is a story about going home by Homer >and
is pertained to by The Collected Works Of Homer.
{ra'a} seems to be duplicated here and in Epistemology sumtcita.
> Examples of se li'e Usage > >mi klama le zarci se li'e la .djan. >I go to the store preceeding/being followed by John.
{mi ne se li'e la djan}
> Examples of te li'e Usage > >mi'o bajra te li'e lo cmalu bi'o lo barda >We ran in order from smallest to largest.
{mi'o ne te li'e ...}
>Examples of ka'i Usage > >mi ritli cuxna pa jatna ka'i le mi mamti mu'i lo nu mi bilma >I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm sick.
s/mamti/mamta
I don't understand the sentence though. Whom does the mother represent?
> Examples of se ka'i Usage > > mi cpacu le jemna do se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss.
You act on behalf of my boss?
> la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te ka'i lo tolvajni po'o
> Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only when representing
> at unimportant events.
{xructciof} will not be accepted by the current morphology.
> Examples of rai Usage
>
> mi pajni le nu jivna rai la .kim.
> I adjucated the competition that was won by Kim.
s/adjucated/adjudicated
Not sure why {rai la kim} would mean that Kim won though. Could it be the competition in which Kim participated the most?
>Examples of se rai Usage
>
>sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu bajra
>S helpfully went to D as fast as a donkey can run.
- The* donkey, S's donkey, in fact.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Mon, 23 May 2005, Jorge Llambas wrote:
>> la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te ka'i lo tolvajni po'o >> Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only when representing >> at unimportant events. > > {xructciof} will not be accepted by the current morphology.
Then the current morphology is too restrictive.
Maybe we should add the issue to the "Notes" section, and go back and revise when the morphology section is done.
-- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ The savvy DXer will usually bet a pair of nickels he can pinpoint the DXCC country of the "chopity-chow-pit chow-chow-pi-chow" even before he hears the call sign. -John F. Lindholm, QST vol. 66 no. 3 p. 83
> On Mon, 23 May 2005, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > >> la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te > ka'i lo tolvajni po'o > >> Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only > when representing > >> at unimportant events. > > > > {xructciof} will not be accepted by the > current morphology. > > Then the current morphology is too restrictive. > > Maybe we should add the issue to the "Notes" > section, and go back and > revise when the morphology section is done. > Inbsofar as the problem is with /io/ this could easily be dropped; it is more important for Russian than pronunciation. Why there is a prov\blem (if there is) with /ctc/ is not clear objectively.
> On Mon, 23 May 2005, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > >> la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te > ka'i lo tolvajni po'o > >> Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only > when representing > >> at unimportant events. > > > > {xructciof} will not be accepted by the > current morphology. > > Then the current morphology is too restrictive. > > Maybe we should add the issue to the "Notes" > section, and go back and > revise when the morphology section is done. > Insofar as the problem is with /io/, this can easily be dropped; it is more important for Russian than for pronunciation. If the problem is with /ctc/, it is a bit hard to justify objectively.
John E Clifford scripsit:
> Inbsofar as the problem is with /io/ this could > easily be dropped; it is more important for > Russian than pronunciation. Why there is a > prov\blem (if there is) with /ctc/ is not clear objectively.
Note that the standard pronunciation has been "shsh" for many years: "shch" is a hangover from 19th-century Leningrad pronunciation back when that was the capital.
-- After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan WELCOME TO [email protected] DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
John E Clifford scripsit:
> Inbsofar as the problem is with /io/ this could > easily be dropped; it is more important for > Russian than pronunciation. Why there is a > prov\blem (if there is) with /ctc/ is not clear objectively.
Note that the standard pronunciation has been "shsh" for many years: "shch" is a hangover from 19th-century Leningrad pronunciation back when that was the capital.
-- After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: John Cowan WELCOME TO [email protected] DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
American English and (if memory serves) Mexican Spanish, at least, have kept the old sound (well, Texans being exceptions as usual). Apparently it is still so for arj as well.
> John E Clifford scripsit: > > > Inbsofar as the problem is with /io/ this > could > > easily be dropped; it is more important for > > Russian than pronunciation. Why there is a > > prov\blem (if there is) with /ctc/ is not > clear objectively. > > Note that the standard pronunciation has been > "shsh" for many years: > "shch" is a hangover from 19th-century > Leningrad pronunciation back > when that was the capital. > > -- > After fixing the Y2K bug in an application: > John Cowan > WELCOME TO > [email protected] > DATE: MONDAK, JANUARK 1, 1900 > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > > >
John E Clifford scripsit: > American English and (if memory serves) Mexican > Spanish, at least, have kept the old sound (well, > Texans being exceptions as usual). Apparently it > is still so for arj as well.
No, I meant in Russian: the letter transliterated "shch" is actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was 19th-century standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when that was the capital.
-- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan
On 5/23/05, John Cowan wrote: > John E Clifford scripsit: > > American English and (if memory serves) Mexican > > Spanish, at least, have kept the old sound (well, > > Texans being exceptions as usual). Apparently it > > is still so for arj as well.
The usual Spanish rendering is "Kruschev", which would go into lojban as {krustcev} (no sh sound in Spanish). The spelling "Jruschev" is more rare, because even though J reflects better the Russian, no Spanish word begins with /xr/.
> No, I meant in Russian: the letter transliterated "shch" is > actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". > The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was 19th-century > standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when that was > the capital.
Both {xruciof} and {xrustcof} would be allowed with the current morphology. The problematic syllable is {tciof}.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On 5/23/05, John Cowan wrote: > John E Clifford scripsit: > > American English and (if memory serves) Mexican > > Spanish, at least, have kept the old sound (well, > > Texans being exceptions as usual). Apparently it > > is still so for arj as well.
The usual Spanish rendering is "Kruschev", which would go into lojban as {krustcev} (no sh sound in Spanish). The spelling "Jruschev" is more rare, because even though J reflects better the Russian, no Spanish word begins with /xr/.
> No, I meant in Russian: the letter transliterated "shch" is > actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". > The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was 19th-century > standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when that was > the capital.
Both {xruciof} and {xrustcof} would be allowed with the current morphology. The problematic syllable is {tciof}.
mu'o mi'e xorxes
Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 03:25:05AM -0700, [email protected] wrote: > > >># mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o >># I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage. >>There should be no space in #$12,000", I believe. >> >> > >I prefer it with the space. > >
http://www24.pair.com/glyptica/ThousandsSeparator.html
-- In Patriarchal America, women hold doors open for men.
Understood already; I was just pointing out that the treatment in other languages is open to some historic patterning that need not reflect the present state of the home language (note that the Lojban vowel is going to be wrong in any case).
> John E Clifford scripsit: > > American English and (if memory serves) > Mexican > > Spanish, at least, have kept the old sound > (well, > > Texans being exceptions as usual). Apparently > it > > is still so for arj as well. > > No, I meant in Russian: the letter > transliterated "shch" is > actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". > The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was > 19th-century > standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when > that was > the capital. > > -- > "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan > > > > >
On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 06:56:25PM -0400, 2 = 3 wrote: > Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > >On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 03:25:05AM -0700, [email protected] > >wrote: > > > > > >># mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o # I > >>moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage. There should be no > >>space in #$12,000", I believe. > >> > >> > > > >I prefer it with the space. > > > > http://www24.pair.com/glyptica/ThousandsSeparator.html
Huh. My bad, apparently. Will be fixed.
-Robin
On Monday 23 May 2005 18:17, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/23/05, John Cowan wrote: > > No, I meant in Russian: the letter transliterated "shch" is > > actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". > > The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was 19th-century > > standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when that was > > the capital. > > Both {xruciof} and {xrustcof} would be allowed with the current > morphology. The problematic syllable is {tciof}.
I think {tciof} should be allowed, but I wouldn't write it that way. I'd write {xructcof}. чо and чё are pronounced the same, and I've seen the word for "devil" spelled both чорт and чёрт.
Ё is always stressed, even if that means two stresses in a word (e.g. трёхсотый, three hundredth), so that makes it {xrucTCOF}.
phma -- Mes règles mensuelles ont lieu une fois par an. -Les Perles de la médecine
On Monday 23 May 2005 18:17, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/23/05, John Cowan wrote: > > No, I meant in Russian: the letter transliterated "shch" is > > actually pronounced as a long palatalized "sh". > > The older pronunciation "shch", as I said, was 19th-century > > standard, based on St. Petersburg dialect when that was > > the capital. > > Both {xruciof} and {xrustcof} would be allowed with the current > morphology. The problematic syllable is {tciof}.
I think {tciof} should be allowed, but I wouldn't write it that way. I'd write {xructcof}. чо and чё are pronounced the same, and I've seen the word for "devil" spelled both чорт and чёрт.
Ё is always stressed, even if that means two stresses in a word (e.g. трёхсотый, three hundredth), so that makes it {xrucTCOF}.
phma -- Mes règles mensuelles ont lieu une fois par an. -Les Perles de la médecine
Suggestion for do'e:
Add keywords "with" and "of".
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
Jeg er nok verdens sydligste sengevter. Forutsatt at ingen p basen p
Sydpolen driver med slikt, da. --Erling Kagge: Alene til Sydpolen
On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 10:17:32PM +0200, Arnt Richard Johansen wrote: > On Mon, 23 May 2005, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > >>la .xructciof. darxi lo jubme le cutci te ka'i lo tolvajni po'o > >>Khruschev hit the table with the shoe only when representing at > >>unimportant events. > > > >{xructciof} will not be accepted by the current morphology. > > Then the current morphology is too restrictive. > > Maybe we should add the issue to the "Notes" section, and go back > and revise when the morphology section is done.
Done.
-Robin
On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 11:36:25PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 06:56:25PM -0400, 2 = 3 wrote: > > Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > >On Sun, May 15, 2005 at 03:25:05AM -0700, > > >[email protected] wrote: > > > > > > > > >># mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o # > > >>I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage. There should be > > >>no space in #$12,000", I believe. > > >> > > >> > > > > > >I prefer it with the space. > > > > > > > http://www24.pair.com/glyptica/ThousandsSeparator.html > > Huh. My bad, apparently. Will be fixed.
Done.
-Robin
On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 04:38:04PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > >Examples of te ki'i Usage > > > >na viska le munje te ki'i lo ka purci ku ba la'e de'u > > > >Unseen is the world of the past after this. > > I don't understand this either in Lojban or in English,
Nor do I, really.
> but if it's "the world of the past" it seems that {be te ki'i} > would be closer.
True. Done.
> Now, {te ki'i} tags a two place relationship, so presumably it's > {lo ka ce'u purci ce'u}. {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} would > be not the world of the past but the world in which things are in > the past of other things, i.e. the opposite of a timeless world. > The usual world we live in is a world with the purci relationship. > {le munje be te ki'i lo ka purci} could refer to our ordinary > time-ordered world.
Other suggestions welcome. IIRC that was the *only* live usage I could find.
> > Examples of du'i Usage > > > > mi muvgau lo tivni le sorcu du'i lo rupnu be li pa re ki'o > > > > I moved $12, 000 of televisions into storage. > > Why is the $12,000 the worth of the televisions rather than how > much I charged for moving them into storage? If it's the > televisions, it should be {lo tivni ne du'i lo rupnu ...}
Done.
> > Examples of pa'u Usage > > > >mi finti le minji pa'u be lo danlu selci > > > >I've invented this machine which includes animal cells. > > s/pa'u be/be pa'u
Done.
> > Examples of pa'a Usage > > > >pei da'i mi basti le mi mulno xekri taxfu lo mulno blabi taxfu > >tu'a se pa'a la xavier > > > >What do you think of me replacing my all-black clothes with > >all-white clothes, like Xavier? > > s/basti/bastygau fi ... fe ...
basygau, rather.
Done.
> s/tu'a se pa'a/pa'a tu'a
Done.
> > Examples of ma'e Usage > > > >mi pilno lo rocki lo nu finti lo larcu dacti kei ma'e ta > > > >I use rock to create objects of art, including that one over > >there. > > That rock or that object of art over there?
Both. Does it matter? Whatever is being pointed at will resolve the issue.
> >Examples of ra'a Usage > > > >mi na birti tu'a ma kau poi cukta vau pe ra'a le do jufra > > > >I am not certain what book your sentence is about. > > > >le nuntalyli'u be la .odiseus. cu lisri lo nu klama lo se xabju > >kei la .xomer. ra'a le cukta be ro da bei la .xomer. > > > >The adventure of Odysseus is a story about going home by Homer > >and is pertained to by The Collected Works Of Homer. > > {ra'a} seems to be duplicated here and in Epistemology sumtcita.
That's A Bug.
Moved to Epistemology.
> > Examples of se li'e Usage > > > >mi klama le zarci se li'e la .djan. > > > >I go to the store preceeding/being followed by John. > > {mi ne se li'e la djan}
Done.
> > Examples of te li'e Usage > > > >mi'o bajra te li'e lo cmalu bi'o lo barda > > > >We ran in order from smallest to largest. > > {mi'o ne te li'e ...}
Done.
> >Examples of ka'i Usage > > > >mi ritli cuxna pa jatna ka'i le mi mamti mu'i lo nu mi bilma > > > >I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm > >sick. > > s/mamti/mamta > > I don't understand the sentence though. Whom does the mother > represent?
The speaker. The mother brings in the vote for the son.
Would you prefer ne?
> > Examples of se ka'i Usage > > > > mi cpacu le jemna do se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi > > > > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > You act on behalf of my boss?
What? No. Why would it mean that?
> > Examples of rai Usage > > > > mi pajni le nu jivna rai la .kim. > > > > I adjucated the competition that was won by Kim. > > s/adjucated/adjudicated > > Not sure why {rai la kim} would mean that Kim won though. Could it > be the competition in which Kim participated the most?
It could be many things, certainly.
Seems that in this context, though, {traji lo ka certu kei fo ro jivna} seems pretty reasonable.
How about a two-stager?
"I adjucated the competition at which Kim was superlative (in some fashion unspecified)."
"I adjucated the competition that was won by Kim (or in which Kim participated the most, or was in some other way superlative; context dependent)."
> >Examples of se rai Usage > > > >sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu bajra > > > >S helpfully went to D as fast as a donkey can run. > > *The* donkey, S's donkey, in fact.
Erm, wouldn't S *be* the donkey, since it's the one going?
Changed to:
S helpfully went to D as fast as the donkey could run.
-Robin
On 6/4/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 04:38:04PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > >Examples of ka'i Usage > > > > > >mi ritli cuxna pa jatna ka'i le mi mamti mu'i lo nu mi bilma > > > > > >I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because I'm > > >sick. > > > > s/mamti/mamta > > > > I don't understand the sentence though. Whom does the mother > > represent? > > The speaker. The mother brings in the vote for the son. > > Would you prefer ne?
Yes.
> > > Examples of se ka'i Usage > > > > > > mi cpacu le jemna do se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi > > > > > > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > > > You act on behalf of my boss? > > What? No. Why would it mean that?
{do} is closer, why wouldn't it mean that? Because {mi} is the agent?
> > >Examples of se rai Usage > > > > > >sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu bajra > > > > > >S helpfully went to D as fast as a donkey can run. > > > > *The* donkey, S's donkey, in fact. > > Erm, wouldn't S *be* the donkey, since it's the one going?
The donkey is vehicling for S (sy klama fu le xasli).
mu'o mi'e xorxes
On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 01:40:55AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 6/4/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 04:38:04PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > >Examples of ka'i Usage > > > > > > > >mi ritli cuxna pa jatna ka'i le mi mamti mu'i lo nu mi bilma > > > > > > > >I vote on one captain as represented by my mother, because > > > >I'm sick. > > > > > > s/mamti/mamta > > > > > > I don't understand the sentence though. Whom does the mother > > > represent? > > > > The speaker. The mother brings in the vote for the son. > > > > Would you prefer ne? > > Yes.
Done.
> > > > Examples of se ka'i Usage > > > > > > > > mi cpacu le jemna do se ka'i le te selplijibri be mi > > > > > > > > I get the jewel from you on behalf of my boss. > > > > > > You act on behalf of my boss? > > > > What? No. Why would it mean that? > > {do} is closer, why wouldn't it mean that? Because {mi} is the > agent?
Ah. I suppose that's what I had in mind, yes. ne added.
> > > >Examples of se rai Usage > > > > > > > >sy sidju klama dy se rai lo ka sutra pe lo nu le xasli cu > > > >bajra > > > > > > > >S helpfully went to D as fast as a donkey can run. > > > > > > *The* donkey, S's donkey, in fact. > > > > Erm, wouldn't S *be* the donkey, since it's the one going? > > The donkey is vehicling for S (sy klama fu le xasli).
- nod*.
-Robin