Talk:BPFK Section: Quotations as of 11 Feb 2005

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Posted by Anonymous on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 18:41 GMT

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:44:53 -0800, webmaster@lojban.org wrote: > !! Proposed Definition of zoi > > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban word. > "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > all further text until the same word is repeated.

Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, would {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai}

Or does it refer to "word" which is defined elsewhere?

> The delimiting word is separated from the quoted text by > pauses, and must not be found in the written text or > spoken phoneme stream.

Is this true for {la'o} quotes as well? It's not mentioned:

> "la'o" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > all further text until the same word is repeated. Both delimiter > words lose their usual grammatical function, as do any Lojban > words that might be inside the quote.


Also, how does {zoi ci mi klama lezarci le briju ci} parse? as "mi klama lezarci le briju"? Or as {"mi klama lezar" le briju ci}? Or as invalid text? (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs within the text but not with a pause in front?

What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there is a pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word)

mu'o mi'e .filip. --

Philip Newton

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Posted by Anonymous on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 18:42 GMT

On Sunday 13 February 2005 11:26, Philip Newton wrote: > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, would > {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai}

I read that as "would \"nai this work? I expect not. \" nai", and thought "Would it nai? What does that mean?"

> Also, how does {zoi ci mi klama lezarci le briju ci} parse? as "mi > klama lezarci le briju"? Or as {"mi klama lezar" le briju ci}? Or as > invalid text? (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > within the text but not with a pause in front? > > What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there is a > pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word)

Based on the example "zoi gy gyrations gy" in chapter 19 of the Book, I think {"mi klama lezarci le briju"} and {"mi klama le" ci le briju zar}.

phma -- Sans lunettes, je ne distingue même pas les odeurs... -Les Perles de la médecine

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Posted by xorxes on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:05 GMT posts: 1912

> > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban word. > > "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > > all further text until the same word is repeated. > > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, would > {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai} > > Or does it refer to "word" which is defined elsewhere?

A word here is any member of a selmaho (including selmaho BRIVLA and CMENE).

cmavo written together do not form a single word. {ganai} is always two words.

The only exception that does count as one word is {y bu}, even when written separately.

> > The delimiting word is separated from the quoted text by > > pauses, and must not be found in the written text or > > spoken phoneme stream. > > Is this true for {la'o} quotes as well? It's not mentioned:

Yes, the rules for {la'o} and for {zoi} are identical, because the syntax only sees selmaho ZOI. The syntax generally only looks at the selmaho, never at the members of the selmaho. The only exception is precisely the delimiter words for ZOI, where the word itself is considered.

> Also, how does {zoi ci mi klama lezarci le briju ci} parse? as "mi > klama lezarci le briju"? Or as {"mi klama lezar" le briju ci}? Or as > invalid text?

For the PEG parser, it's the first one. In this case there is no reasonable alternative, because the ci in zarci can't be a separate word without a pause, but there are more iffy cases such as:

> (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > within the text but not with a pause in front?

For example {zoi ci mi klama reci zarci ci}? In this case, PEG _will_ see the ci in reci as a separate word. (Whether or not this is what we want is debatable.)

> What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there is a > pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word)

Again, zar in zarci cannot be a word, so it is not seen by the parser as a word.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:05 GMT

On Sunday 13 February 2005 15:00, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > --- Philip Newton wrote: > > > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > > > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban word. > > > "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > > > all further text until the same word is repeated. > > > > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, would > > {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai} > > > > Or does it refer to "word" which is defined elsewhere? > > A word here is any member of a selmaho (including selmaho BRIVLA > and CMENE).

What about {zoi kau'i ka'ia ki'i kau'i}?

> cmavo written together do not form a single word. {ganai} is > always two words. > > The only exception that does count as one word is {y bu}, even when > written separately.

What does {zoi ybu abu boi denpa bu ybu} parse as?

> > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > > within the text but not with a pause in front? > > For example {zoi ci mi klama reci zarci ci}? In this case, PEG > _will_ see the ci in reci as a separate word. (Whether or not this > is what we want is debatable.)

The parser shouldn't be lexing text inside a zoi-quote; it should only be looking for the delimiter. If it sees {ci} as a separate word in {reci}, what does it do with {zoi ci mi qlawa reci zarci ci}?

> > What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there is a > > pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word) > > Again, zar in zarci cannot be a word, so it is not seen by the parser > as a word.

What about {zoi cire cilce carce jarco cu jarco reci cilce carce}?

phma -- lo nu punji lo sovda be lo cipnrkuku kukuku zvati lo zdani be lo na'e cipnrkuku kuku

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Posted by xorxes on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:05 GMT posts: 1912

> On Sunday 13 February 2005 15:00, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > > --- Philip Newton wrote: > > > > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > > > > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban word. > > > > "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > > > > all further text until the same word is repeated. > > > > > > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, would > > > {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai} > > > > > > Or does it refer to "word" which is defined elsewhere? > > > > A word here is any member of a selmaho (including selmaho BRIVLA > > and CMENE). > > What about {zoi kau'i ka'ia ki'i kau'i}?

I should have said "including selmaho BRIVA, CMENE and UNASSIGNED-CMAVO. Yes, kau'i will work as a delimiter.

> > cmavo written together do not form a single word. {ganai} is > > always two words. > > > > The only exception that does count as one word is {y bu}, even when > > written separately. > > What does {zoi ybu abu boi denpa bu ybu} parse as?

"abu boi denpa bu" is zoi-quoted. {y bu} behaves in all respects as a member of selmaho BY.

> > > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > > > within the text but not with a pause in front? > > > > For example {zoi ci mi klama reci zarci ci}? In this case, PEG > > _will_ see the ci in reci as a separate word. (Whether or not this > > is what we want is debatable.) > > The parser shouldn't be lexing text inside a zoi-quote; it should only be > looking for the delimiter. If it sees {ci} as a separate word in {reci}, what

> does it do with {zoi ci mi qlawa reci zarci ci}?

"mi qlawa re" zarci ci

{qlawa} is parsed as a non-lojban word, but the rest are all lojban words.

The ci in {cireqlawa} would not be seen as a separate word.

> > > What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there is a > > > pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word) > > > > Again, zar in zarci cannot be a word, so it is not seen by the parser > > as a word. > > What about {zoi cire cilce carce jarco cu jarco reci cilce carce}?

"re cilce carce jarco cu jarco re" cilce carce

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by xorxes on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:05 GMT posts: 1912

> The parser shouldn't be lexing text inside a zoi-quote; it should only be > looking for the delimiter.

That would be much more complicated, because to recognize a delimiter it would have to do the full syntactic parsing rather than merely morphological. It's not enough to detect a zoi or a la'o, because these could be affected themselves by other magic words.

It's probably doable, but I don't think it is worth the complications it introduces. I prefer word lexing to be strictly separated from syntactic parsing. The morphology algorithm should be able to break any stream into words (including non-lojban words) without having any clue as to the meaning or grammar of any of the words.

Any string separated by spaces that contains a unrecognized character is considered a non-lojban word. More generally, any string separated by spaces (or pauses in speech) that cannot be _fully_ broken into valid Lojban words is considered a single non-lojban word.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:05 GMT posts: 14214

Ummm, this section has already been checkpointed. Did you not get the mails?

On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 05:26:05PM +0100, Philip Newton wrote: > On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:44:53 -0800, webmaster@lojban.org > wrote: > > !! Proposed Definition of zoi > > > > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban word. > > "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > > all further text until the same word is repeated. > > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, > would {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai}

"ga nai" is two words in Lojban. There is no confusion on this point that I am aware of.

> > The delimiting word is separated from the quoted text by pauses, > > and must not be found in the written text or spoken phoneme > > stream. > > Is this true for {la'o} quotes as well? It's not mentioned: > > > "la'o" uses the following word as a delimiting word and quotes > > all further text until the same word is repeated. Both > > delimiter words lose their usual grammatical function, as do any > > Lojban words that might be inside the quote.

Yes, it's true for {la'o} as well. That's a bit of a bug.

> Also, how does {zoi ci mi klama lezarci le briju ci} parse? as "mi > klama lezarci le briju"? Or as {"mi klama lezar" le briju ci}? Or as > invalid text? (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > within the text but not with a pause in front?

It is ignored.

> What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where there > is a pause but the word is longer than the delimiting word)

It is ignored.

"seperated by pauses" means on both sides.

-Robin

-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:41 GMT posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:26:01PM -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 13 February 2005 15:00, Jorge "Llamb?as" wrote: > > --- Philip Newton wrote: > > > > ;zoi (ZOI): Non-Lojban quotation. Creates a delimited > > > > non-Lojban quotation. The result treated as single Lojban > > > > word. "zoi" uses the following word as a delimiting word and > > > > quotes all further text until the same word is repeated. > > > > > > Does "word" need to be defined for this purpose? For example, > > > would {zoi ganai this work? I expect not. ganai} > > > > > > Or does it refer to "word" which is defined elsewhere? > > > > A word here is any member of a selmaho (including selmaho BRIVLA > > and CMENE). > > What about {zoi kau'i ka'ia ki'i kau'i}?

kau'i is a member of the psuedo-selmaho "CMAVO", and works with no trouble.

> > cmavo written together do not form a single word. {ganai} is > > always two words. > > > > The only exception that does count as one word is {y bu}, even > > when written separately. > > What does {zoi ybu abu boi denpa bu ybu} parse as?

One big zoi quote.

> > > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs within > > > the text but not with a pause in front? > > > > For example {zoi ci mi klama reci zarci ci}? In this case, PEG > > _will_ see the ci in reci as a separate word. (Whether or not > > this is what we want is debatable.) > > The parser shouldn't be lexing text inside a zoi-quote; it should > only be looking for the delimiter.

That's not possible without lexing it.

> If it sees {ci} as a separate word in {reci}, what does it do with > {zoi ci mi qlawa reci zarci ci}?

Umm, the same thing: zoi (ci mi qlawa reci) zarci *error*.

> > > What about {zoi zar mi klama le zarci le briju zar}? (where > > > there is a pause but the word is longer than the delimiting > > > word) > > > > Again, zar in zarci cannot be a word, so it is not seen by the > > parser as a word. > > What about {zoi cire cilce carce jarco cu jarco reci cilce carce}?

The quote ends at the ci in reci.

You know, if you had so much to say about this section, it would have been nice if you had said it sometime in the past *month* when the section was open.

-Robin

-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

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Posted by Anonymous on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:41 GMT

On Sunday 13 February 2005 15:55, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > --- Pierre Abbat wrote: > > The parser shouldn't be lexing text inside a zoi-quote; it should only be > > looking for the delimiter. > > That would be much more complicated, because to recognize a delimiter > it would have to do the full syntactic parsing rather than merely > morphological. It's not enough to detect a zoi or a la'o, because > these could be affected themselves by other magic words. > > It's probably doable, but I don't think it is worth the complications > it introduces. I prefer word lexing to be strictly separated from > syntactic parsing. The morphology algorithm should be able to break > any stream into words (including non-lojban words) without having any > clue as to the meaning or grammar of any of the words. > > Any string separated by spaces that contains a unrecognized character > is considered a non-lojban word. More generally, any string separated > by spaces (or pauses in speech) that cannot be _fully_ broken into valid > Lojban words is considered a single non-lojban word.

The problem with that is that a single foreign word could look like two Lojban words each of which is also a foreign word. Thus {zoi gy i got to go to togo gy} parses as "i got to go to to go".

phma -- 1 m = 3*3*5*7*47*44351/73/293339 * Cs133

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Posted by xorxes on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:41 GMT posts: 1912

> > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs > > within the text but not with a pause in front? > > It is ignored.

Not necessarily.

The rule is that anything that _can_ be recognized as a Lojban word, will be.

If it is embedded in a non-lojban word, then it can't be recognized, but if it is embedded in a Lojban string of words, and this string is separated by pauses from non-lojban words, then it will be recognized.

The morphology algorithm knows nothing about the syntax of words. For the morphology, zoi is just like loi, words that come after zoi are trated like any other. The syntax parse will of course reject any non-lojban word outside of a ZOI-quote, but for the morphology non-lojban words are simply one more kind of word.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by xorxes on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 21:41 GMT posts: 1912

> On Sunday 13 February 2005 15:55, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > > I prefer word lexing to be strictly separated from > > syntactic parsing. The morphology algorithm should be able to break > > any stream into words (including non-lojban words) without having any > > clue as to the meaning or grammar of any of the words. > > The problem with that is that a single foreign word could look like two > Lojban > words each of which is also a foreign word. Thus {zoi gy i got to go to togo > gy} parses as "i got to go to to go".

Oh, I don't mind how the parser ends up presenting the results. A good rule of presentation might be to present everything within zoi quotes just as it was received. But that's different from lexing.

The issue here is what counts as a word for delimiting purposes. You could not use the word {to} or the word {go} as delimiters to quote the foreign word "Togo", because the *morphology* pass will see "Togo" as two lojban words, not as a non-lojban word.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Sun 13 of Feb., 2005 22:24 GMT

On Sunday 13 February 2005 16:27, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > Oh, I don't mind how the parser ends up presenting the results. > A good rule of presentation might be to present everything within > zoi quotes just as it was received. But that's different from lexing. > > The issue here is what counts as a word for delimiting purposes. You > could not use the word {to} or the word {go} as delimiters to quote > the foreign word "Togo", because the *morphology* pass will see > "Togo" as two lojban words, not as a non-lojban word.

Fine with me. I avoid using a delimiter that sounds or looks like some part of what I'm quoting, even if it wouldn't be seen by the parser as the delimiter. E.g. I wouldn't say {zoi tok toki pona tok} or {zoi ly Lythraceae ly}.

phma -- ..i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do ..ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga ..icu'u la ma'atman.

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Posted by xorxes on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 00:52 GMT posts: 1912

> > Fine with me. I avoid using a delimiter that sounds or looks like some part > of > what I'm quoting, even if it wouldn't be seen by the parser as the delimiter. > > E.g. I wouldn't say {zoi tok toki pona tok} or {zoi ly Lythraceae ly}.

I think that's a good rule of style, even though the parser woldn't be confused in those cases.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 00:52 GMT posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 12:00:37PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > --- Philip Newton wrote: > > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs within the > > text but not with a pause in front? > > For example {zoi ci mi klama reci zarci ci}? In this case, PEG > _will_ see the ci in reci as a separate word. (Whether or not this > is what we want is debatable.)

Actually, it's not debatable: the Quotations sectios says it must be delimited by pauses, so this is a bug.

It shouldn't be a hard bug to fix.

My question is, does *any* space count as a pause, or only . ?

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 00:52 GMT

On Sunday 13 February 2005 16:08, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > You know, if you had so much to say about this section, it would > have been nice if you had said it sometime in the past *month* when > the section was open.

At the time, I was spending a bit too much time at work and going to work for my brain to be fresh enough to tackle the intricacies of {zoi} and other magic words. As the morphology algorithm I've thought about more, I should be able to handle discussing it, though I will be moving sometime soon.

Anyway, Jorge and I agree that such examples are bad *style*, even if they're not bad grammar.

phma -- S Fa1>+/- !TM Ng- M K H T-- t? AT++ SY Te- SC- FO- D P !Tz E++ L Am I Ha- hc-- FH+++ IP?

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 00:53 GMT posts: 14214

On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:19:31PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > (More generally, what if the delimiting "word" occurs within > > > the text but not with a pause in front? > > > > It is ignored. > > Not necessarily. > > The rule is that anything that _can_ be recognized as a Lojban > word, will be.

By the morphology section, yes. But the section that actually processes ZOI should (and can) know better.

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 00:53 GMT posts: 1912

> On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 01:19:31PM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > The rule is that anything that _can_ be recognized as a Lojban > > word, will be. > > By the morphology section, yes. But the section that actually > processes ZOI should (and can) know better.

Yes, I suppose it's not that hard, you just need to force zoi-open to be followed by a pause and zoi-close to follow a pause, and zoi-word to accept words that would otherwise be delimiters but are not preceded by pause. I don't care much one way or the other really, if the fix is that simple.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 07:04 GMT

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:27:09 -0800 (PST), Jorge Llambías wrote: > > The issue here is what counts as a word for delimiting purposes. You > could not use the word {to} or the word {go} as delimiters to quote > the foreign word "Togo", because the *morphology* pass will see > "Togo" as two lojban words, not as a non-lojban word.

I see. May not be that intuitive for people who don't understand Lojban's morphology, but then they probably won't be using ZOI all that much.

mu'o mi'e .filip. --

Philip Newton

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 07:04 GMT

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:04:08 -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > Ummm, this section has already been checkpointed. Did you not get > the mails?

I probably did.

But I didn't read all BPFK email since I'm not a member (or am I? I thought I signed up for the list as an observer), so I didn't feel responsibility for keeping up with what was happening--or for understanding all that was coming, much of which seemed various degrees of impenetrable to me.

I was mostly asking questions-for-understanding from the point of view "I'm sure this is fine and covers all possible bases, but please explain how X works in a bit more detail", not "I think this is wrong because of FOO; let's get it fixed" questions.

Though this may not be the most helpful thing, nor the best time to do so.

mu'o mi'e .filip. --

Philip Newton

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 07:04 GMT

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:08:37 -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:26:01PM -0500, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > If it sees {ci} as a separate word in {reci}, what does it do with > > {zoi ci mi qlawa reci zarci ci}? > > Umm, the same thing: zoi (ci mi qlawa reci) zarci *error*.

Even without the pause?

> > What about {zoi cire cilce carce jarco cu jarco reci cilce carce}? > > The quote ends at the ci in reci.

and again.

mu'o mi'e .filip. noi na djica le nu jai fanza --

Philip Newton

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 14 of Feb., 2005 07:05 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Feb 14, 2005 at 06:20:15AM +0100, Philip Newton wrote: > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:04:08 -0800, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > Ummm, this section has already been checkpointed. Did you not > > get the mails? > > I probably did. > > But I didn't read all BPFK email since I'm not a member (or am I? > I thought I signed up for the list as an observer), so I didn't > feel responsibility for keeping up with what was happening--or for > understanding all that was coming, much of which seemed various > degrees of impenetrable to me.

  • blink*

Please accept apologies; you *are* indeed an observer. I forgot to check.

Sorry.

> I was mostly asking questions-for-understanding from the point of > view "I'm sure this is fine and covers all possible bases, but > please explain how X works in a bit more detail", not "I think > this is wrong because of FOO; let's get it fixed" questions. > > Though this may not be the most helpful thing, nor the best time > to do so.

I'd much, much rather you questioned things than not; I was merely mildly annoyed at the timing. :-)

Your point about la'o's definition has been noted and will be handled later; the fact that zoi doesn't require pauses in the right places in my PEG grammar will be fixed, probably this week.

-Robin

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