Talk:BPFK Section: Case sumtcita

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Posted by arj on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 10:56 GMT posts: 953

Nice job, Robin! Not to diminish your hard work, but in the interest of perfection I'd like to point out the following mistakes:

"Pleasant" is on many occasions misspelled as "pleasent".

"lo mlatu cu tarmi le mudri gau mi" is in the section for zu'e, but has a gau instead of a zu'e in it.

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arjPosted by arj on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 11:08 GMT posts: 953

Now for some substantive comments.

Many of the examples look suspiciously made up; however there is no comment stating this fact. Are they all live usages?

You occasionally type a period in front of cmene that begin with a consonant, and sometimes you don't. Please standardize on one. Preferably the latter, since the current official rule is that consonant-initial cmene after zo or la* does not need a pause in front of it, and the convention is to write only pauses that are mandatory.

I think that mi pilno lo karce fi'e la ford. should have "be fi'e" to have that meaning. As it stands, I read it as something like "My driving the car, as an event, is invented by Ford".

ci'o ko'a mi pu tavla do: I have doubts about the translation (He/She/It got emotional about my talking to you.). Sounds to much like an outburst. How about "He/She/It was emotionally affected by my talking to you", or "I talk to you, emotionally affecting him/her/it"?

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arjPosted by arj on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 22:48 GMT posts: 953

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote:

> BPFK Section: Case sumtcita > Now for some substantive comments.

Oops.

I forgot to sign that message, and the previous one. You can see that they are written by me if you go to the wiki, but apparently it did not show up on the e-mails. Sorry.

-- Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/ Tiene Cuba?

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 22:48 GMT posts: 14214

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 03:08:34AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Many of the examples look suspiciously made up; however there is > no comment stating this fact. Are they all live usages?

They are all completely made up. I tried to find live usage at first, but as I almost never was able, I gave up.

I could probably find live usage for some of pi'o and zu'e, but I think that's about it.

> You occasionally type a period in front of cmene that begin with a > consonant, and sometimes you don't.

Lately I've been trying to do only the former. I'm a major proponent of the pauses-instead-of-no-la rule.

Fixed.

> I think that mi pilno lo karce fi'e la ford. should have "be > fi'e" to have that meaning.

Yes.

> ci'o ko'a mi pu tavla do: I have doubts about the translation > (He/She/It got emotional about my talking to you.). Sounds to much > like an outburst. How about "He/She/It was emotionally affected by > my talking to you",

Cool, thanks.

-Robin

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 22:48 GMT posts: 14214

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 02:57:05AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > "Pleasant" is on many occasions misspelled as "pleasent".

What's funny is that I just watched "Pleasantville". Heh. Fixed.

> "lo mlatu cu tarmi le mudri gau mi" is in the section for zu'e, > but has a gau instead of a zu'e in it.

Fixed.

-Robin

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Thu 10 of Feb., 2005 22:48 GMT posts: 14214

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 10:55:40AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 03:08:34AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > wrote: > > Many of the examples look suspiciously made up; however there is > > no comment stating this fact. Are they all live usages? > > They are all completely made up. I tried to find live usage at > first, but as I almost never was able, I gave up. > > I could probably find live usage for some of pi'o and zu'e, but I > think that's about it.

In aid of doing this, for myself and others, I've produced:

http://www.teddyb.org/~rlpowell/media/regular/bai_irc.txt

If people want me to do the same thing for other cmavo, just let me know.

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Fri 11 of Feb., 2005 12:55 GMT posts: 1912

> In aid of doing this, for myself and others, I've produced: > > http://www.teddyb.org/~rlpowell/media/regular/bai_irc.txt > > If people want me to do the same thing for other cmavo, just let me > know.

It would be nice to have it for UI.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''__ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Fri 11 of Feb., 2005 19:00 GMT posts: 14214

On Fri, Feb 11, 2005 at 04:25:37AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > In aid of doing this, for myself and others, I've produced: > > > > http://www.teddyb.org/~rlpowell/media/regular/bai_irc.txt > > > > If people want me to do the same thing for other cmavo, just let > > me know. > > It would be nice to have it for UI.

http://www.teddyb.org/~rlpowell/media/regular/ui_irc.txt

-Robin

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Posted by xorxes on Wed 30 of Mar., 2005 19:30 GMT posts: 1912

> Examples of si'u Usage > > mi bevri lo pipno si'u la .djan. .e la .frank. > I carry the piano, helped by John and Frank.

I would have used {joi} instead of {.e} there.

I'm not sure, however, if that expands to {ge mi bevri lo pipno si'u la djan gi mi bevri lo pipno si'u la frank} or not.

> Examples of se fi'e Usage > > mi pilno le tadji se fi'e lo nanba > I followed the instructions to make bread.

The English seems ambiguous between {mi pilno le tadji lo nu zbasu lo nanba} and {mi pilno le tadji be lo nu zbasu lo nanba}.

I think {finti} would be used for bread only in very special cases, and if you really finti bread you probably wouldn't be following instructions.

> mi jmina lo ladru lo maxri lo pesxu te fi'o lo nanba > I add milk to wheat to make a paste, with the goal of bread.

s/fi'o/fi'e s/the whole example/something else

> mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > I write a story using mythological elements.

s/tcidu/finti

Hmm... that leaves you without an example.

> Examples of ra'i Usage > > mi ciska lo lisri ra'i lo nu mi pensi lo ranmi > I write a story, based on my thinking about myths.

s/ciska/finti

> Examples of se ra'i Usage > > mi vitke la .torontos. be se ra'i la .maik.maiyrs. > I visit Toronto, which Mike Myers is from.

I approve, but it requires a change of grammar.

> Examples of xe ka'a Usage > > mi vitke la .kalifornias. xe ka'a lo trene > I visit California by train.

Perhaps "on a train", to indicate that the whole/most of the visit occurs while on the train.

> Examples of pu'a Usage > > mi .e la .djen. casnu pu'a le cisma po ri > Jen and I discussed, and her smile was pleasant.

s/.e/joi

> Examples of se be'i Usage > > mi pilno ti se be'i lo se mrilu > I use this to send mail.

That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji lo se mrilu}.

> Examples of te be'i Usage > > mi pilno ti te be'i la .kim. > I use this to send to Kim.

That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji fi la kim}.

> Examples of ve be'i Usage > > mi pilno ti ve be'i la .kim. > I use this to receive from Kim.

{mi pilno ti lo nu benji fo la kim}.

> Examples of xe be'i Usage > > mi .e la .djan. casnu xe be'i lo skami > John and I talk with transmission medium computer(s).

s/.e/joi (presumably)

> Examples of te pi'o Usage > > mi katna lo mudri te pi'o lo nu finti lo larcu dacti > I cut wood (using a tool unspecified) for the purpose of creating an object of art.

In theory at least, the x1 of katna would be a tool not a person, so {gau mi katna lo mudri ...}.

> Examples of se gau Usage > > mi pilno lo dakfu se gau lo nu mi katna le degji be fi mi > I use a knife, with the result that I cut my finger.

That looks like an example of {ja'e}, also same comment as above about {katna}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by Anonymous on Wed 13 of Apr., 2005 09:49 GMT

>mi katna lo mudri te pi'o lo nu finti lo larcu dacti >I cut wood (using a tool unspecified) for the purpose of creating an object >of art.

I've made this error myself (in "da kevna le baktu"), but {mi katna lo mudri} means I am the tool - I beaved it. "I cut wood", meaning that I use some tool to cut it, is {mi ka'argau fi lo mudri}.

phma -- lo nu punji lo sovda be lo cipnrkuku kukuku zvati lo zdani be lo na'e cipnrkuku kuku

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:16 GMT posts: 14214

On Wed, Apr 13, 2005 at 05:47:31AM -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >mi katna lo mudri te pi'o lo nu finti lo larcu dacti I cut > >wood (using a tool unspecified) for the purpose of creating an > >object of art. > > I've made this error myself (in "da kevna le baktu"), but {mi > katna lo mudri} means I am the tool - I beaved it. "I cut wood", > meaning that I use some tool to cut it, is {mi ka'argau fi lo > mudri}.

Fixed. Thanks.

-Robin

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:16 GMT posts: 14214

On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 11:30:24AM -0800, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: BPFK Section: Case sumtcita > > Examples of si'u Usage > > > > mi bevri lo pipno si'u la .djan. .e la .frank. I carry the > > piano, helped by John and Frank. > > I would have used {joi} instead of {.e} there.

Agreed.

> I'm not sure, however, if that expands to {ge mi bevri lo pipno > si'u la djan gi mi bevri lo pipno si'u la frank} or not.

That's my belief.

> > Examples of se fi'e Usage > > > > mi pilno le tadji se fi'e lo nanba > > I followed the instructions to make bread. > > The English seems ambiguous between > {mi pilno le tadji lo nu zbasu lo nanba} and > {mi pilno le tadji be lo nu zbasu lo nanba}. > > I think {finti} would be used for bread only in very special > cases, and if you really finti bread you probably wouldn't be > following instructions.

Point. Suggestions?

> > mi jmina lo ladru lo maxri lo pesxu te fi'o lo nanba > > I add milk to wheat to make a paste, with the goal of bread. > > s/fi'o/fi'e > s/the whole example/something else

Suggestions?

> > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > > I write a story using mythological elements. > > s/tcidu/finti > > Hmm... that leaves you without an example.

Yep. As may be obvious, I had a hard time with some of these.

> > Examples of se ra'i Usage > > > > mi vitke la .torontos. be se ra'i la .maik.maiyrs. > > I visit Toronto, which Mike Myers is from. > > I approve, but it requires a change of grammar.

I don't. s/be/pe/

> > Examples of se be'i Usage > > > > mi pilno ti se be'i lo se mrilu > > I use this to send mail. > > That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji lo se mrilu}.

Yes, it would. You have a better example?

> > Examples of te be'i Usage > > > > mi pilno ti te be'i la .kim. > > I use this to send to Kim. > > That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji fi la kim}.

See above.

> > Examples of ve be'i Usage > > > > mi pilno ti ve be'i la .kim. > > I use this to receive from Kim. > > {mi pilno ti lo nu benji fo la kim}.

See above.

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:17 GMT

On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > Examples of se fi'e Usage > > > > > > mi pilno le tadji se fi'e lo nanba > > > I followed the instructions to make bread. > > > > The English seems ambiguous between > > {mi pilno le tadji lo nu zbasu lo nanba} and > > {mi pilno le tadji be lo nu zbasu lo nanba}. > > > > I think {finti} would be used for bread only in very special > > cases, and if you really finti bread you probably wouldn't be > > following instructions. > > Point. Suggestions?

Let's start with a sentence using {finti} as the selbri, and with all places filled:

la djan finti lo lisri lo nu le tixnu cu cmila kei lo se viska John invents a story so that his daughter laughs, made up out of what they are seeing.

Now, since the x3 of {finti} is taken by an event, it is easy to construct examples for {fi'e}, {se fi'e} and {ve fi'e} out of that sentence:

le tixnu cu cmila fi'e la djan The daughter laughs with-invention-by John.

le tixnu cu cmila se fi'e lo lisri The daughter laughs with-invented story.

le tixnu cu cmila ve fi'e lo se viska The daughter laughs with-invention-from what they see.

I don't know what else but the goal of the invention could be the main bridi augmented with a {fi'e}, {se fi'e} or {ve fi'e} place.

{te fi'e} is more complicated because it doesn't leave any event place open for the main bridi, so the transformation has to be something more like {broda te fi'e ko'a} -> {lo nu broda cu nu finti fi ko'a}, the brodaing has to be itself an event of creation where ko'a is the goal, but at the same time not use {finti} as the selbri. Perhaps something with {zbasu}:

la djan zbasu lo lisri lo se viska te fi'e lo nu le tixnu cu cmila John makes a story out of what they see, with-goal-of-invention that his daughter laughs.

It is not clear why one would use {zbasu} there instead of {finti} though.

> > > Examples of se be'i Usage > > > > > > mi pilno ti se be'i lo se mrilu > > > I use this to send mail. > > > > That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji lo se mrilu}. > > Yes, it would. You have a better example?

Again, let's write a full bridi with {benji}:

la djan benji lo xatra le bruna la paris mi John sends a letter to his brother from Paris via me.

The problem here is that none of the places is an event, so using any of the places to expand another bridi is very difficult. Let's say that the sending of the letter was used by John to thank his brother for something, then:

la djan ckire le bruna se be'i lo xatra John thanks his brother with-sent letter.

la djan ckire le bruna ve be'i la paris John thanks his borther with-sent-from Paris.

la djan ckire le bruna xe be'i mi John thanks his brother with-carrier me.

For {be'i} and {te be'i} we need to identify the sending with an event in which no agent, the sender, or no receiver takes direct part. Let's say that instead of a letter, John sends a box to his brother.

ti tanxe be'i la djan This is a box with-sender John.

ti tanxe te be'i le bruna This is a box sent-to the brother.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by pycyn on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:18 GMT posts: 2388

Aside from pointlessness, all of these assume without any visible justification a certain relationship both with the "corresponding" brivla to the BAI and between the resulting sentence and one in which that brivla plays a role as a brivla. These connection are not supported by the core group of BAI, so suing them to create new ones is an innovation which seems bound to lead to the kinbds of pointless muddles here shown.


> On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > > > Examples of se fi'e Usage > > > > > > > > mi pilno le tadji se fi'e lo nanba > > > > I followed the instructions to make > bread. > > > > > > The English seems ambiguous between > > > {mi pilno le tadji lo nu zbasu lo nanba} > and > > > {mi pilno le tadji be lo nu zbasu lo > nanba}. > > > > > > I think {finti} would be used for bread > only in very special > > > cases, and if you really finti bread you > probably wouldn't be > > > following instructions. > > > > Point. Suggestions? > > Let's start with a sentence using {finti} as > the selbri, and with > all places filled: > > la djan finti lo lisri lo nu le tixnu cu > cmila kei lo se viska > John invents a story so that his daughter > laughs, made up > out of what they are seeing. > > Now, since the x3 of {finti} is taken by an > event, it is easy > to construct examples for {fi'e}, {se fi'e} and > {ve fi'e} out of that > sentence: > > le tixnu cu cmila fi'e la djan > The daughter laughs with-invention-by > John. > > le tixnu cu cmila se fi'e lo lisri > The daughter laughs with-invented > story. > > le tixnu cu cmila ve fi'e lo se viska > The daughter laughs with-invention-from > what they see. > > I don't know what else but the goal of the > invention could > be the main bridi augmented with a {fi'e}, {se > fi'e} or {ve fi'e} > place. > > {te fi'e} is more complicated because it > doesn't leave > any event place open for the main bridi, so the > transformation > has to be something more like {broda te fi'e > ko'a} -> > {lo nu broda cu nu finti fi ko'a}, the brodaing > has to be itself > an event of creation where ko'a is the goal, > but at the same > time not use {finti} as the selbri. Perhaps > something with > {zbasu}: > > la djan zbasu lo lisri lo se viska te fi'e > lo nu le tixnu cu cmila > John makes a story out of what they see, > with-goal-of-invention > that his daughter laughs. > > It is not clear why one would use {zbasu} there > instead of {finti} > though. > > > > > Examples of se be'i Usage > > > > > > > > mi pilno ti se be'i lo se mrilu > > > > I use this to send mail. > > > > > > That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji lo > se mrilu}. > > > > Yes, it would. You have a better example? > > Again, let's write a full bridi with {benji}: > > la djan benji lo xatra le bruna la paris mi > John sends a letter to his brother from > Paris via me. > > The problem here is that none of the places is > an event, so > using any of the places to expand another bridi > is very > difficult. Let's say that the sending of the > letter was > used by John to thank his brother for > something, then: > > la djan ckire le bruna se be'i lo xatra > John thanks his brother with-sent letter. > > la djan ckire le bruna ve be'i la paris > John thanks his borther with-sent-from > Paris. > > la djan ckire le bruna xe be'i mi > John thanks his brother with-carrier me. > > For {be'i} and {te be'i} we need to identify > the sending with an > event in which no agent, the sender, or no > receiver takes direct > part. Let's say that instead of a letter, John > sends a box to his > brother. > > ti tanxe be'i la djan > This is a box with-sender John. > > ti tanxe te be'i le bruna > This is a box sent-to the brother. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > >

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:18 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:58:44PM -0700, John E Clifford wrote: > Aside from pointlessness, all of these assume without any visible > justification a certain relationship both with the "corresponding" > brivla to the BAI and between the resulting sentence and one in > which that brivla plays a role as a brivla. These connection are > not supported by the core group of BAI, so suing them to create > new ones is an innovation which seems bound to lead to the kinbds > of pointless muddles here shown.

You keep saying "new ones".

There is not a single BAI or BAI* in BPFK consideration that is not already in the ma'oste; I know this for a fact because that's what I used to generate the current list.

So, what "new ones" are you talking about?

-Robin

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Posted by pycyn on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:18 GMT posts: 2388

So you are saying tht you did not invent these forms by a mechanical device, but someone else did. It is not who did it but that it was done that I object to. As for what are the new ones, I would say all that have been added to the old list for reasons other than actual usage.


wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 12:58:44PM -0700, John > E Clifford wrote: > > Aside from pointlessness, all of these assume > without any visible > > justification a certain relationship both > with the "corresponding" > > brivla to the BAI and between the resulting > sentence and one in > > which that brivla plays a role as a brivla. > These connection are > > not supported by the core group of BAI, so > suing them to create > > new ones is an innovation which seems bound > to lead to the kinbds > > of pointless muddles here shown. > > You keep saying "new ones". > > There is not a single BAI or BAI* in BPFK > consideration that is not > already in the ma'oste; I know this for a fact > because that's what I > used to generate the current list. > > So, what "new ones" are you talking about? > > -Robin > > > >

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Posted by Anonymous on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:18 GMT

On 5/16/05, John E Clifford wrote: > So you are saying tht you did not invent these > forms by a mechanical device, but someone else > did. It is not who did it but that it was done > that I object to. As for what are the new ones, > I would say all that have been added to the old > list for reasons other than actual usage.

What "old list"?

BAIs are a closed class, they can't be augmented by usage unless through the use of experimantal cmavo.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by pycyn on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:18 GMT posts: 2388

> On 5/16/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > So you are saying tht you did not invent > these > > forms by a mechanical device, but someone > else > > did. It is not who did it but that it was > done > > that I object to. As for what are the new > ones, > > I would say all that have been added to the > old > > list for reasons other than actual usage. > > What "old list"?

Judging by the pile it is in, it is a printed list that circulated somewhere between the last couple of variously named newsletters and the serious working toward CLL.

> BAIs are a closed class, they can't be > augmented by > usage unless through the use of experimantal > cmavo. > The BAI are a closed class if you mean by that a group of forms that are composed from the simple BAI taken either alone or with a SE prefixed (probably restricted by the adicity of the "corresponding brivla"). Or even through all forms generated by any predicate and the device for isolating a place from it (although this is technically not a closed class since the class of predicates is not). The class of actual (used) BAI is not a closed class, we can add to that simply by using one in a real way (I take it that made up — and often farfetched — examples do not count).

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Posted by Anonymous on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:19 GMT

On 5/16/05, John E Clifford wrote: > The BAI are a closed class if you mean by that a > group of forms that are composed from the simple > BAI taken either alone

Yes, that's what I mean. The members of selma'o BAI.

or with a SE prefixed > (probably restricted by the adicity of the > "corresponding brivla").

SE BAI are tags, they are called BAI* in the ma'oste. All possible SE BAIs are included in the official ma'oste as well as in CLL.

> Or even through all > forms generated by any predicate and the device > for isolating a place from it (although this is > technically not a closed class since the class of > predicates is not).

Those are tags, but not BAIs. I suppose none of them will be in the dictionary under their own entry. A few should be there under {fi'o}.

The class of actual (used) > BAI is not a closed class, we can add to that > simply by using one in a real way (I take it that > made up — and often farfetched — examples do > not count).

The BPFK is not defining used cmavo only, it is defining all official cmavo.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by pycyn on Fri 20 of May, 2005 18:19 GMT posts: 2388

> On 5/16/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > The BAI are a closed class if you mean by > that a > > group of forms that are composed from the > simple > > BAI taken either alone > > Yes, that's what I mean. The members of selma'o > BAI.

I see that I have been careless. Revise my comments to accord with the subject heading: not BAI but sumtcita or whatever fits the case.

> or with a SE prefixed > > (probably restricted by the adicity of the > > "corresponding brivla"). > > SE BAI are tags, they are called BAI* in the > ma'oste. All possible SE BAIs > are included in the official ma'oste as well as > in CLL. > > > Or even through all > > forms generated by any predicate and the > device > > for isolating a place from it (although this > is > > technically not a closed class since the > class of > > predicates is not). > > Those are tags, but not BAIs. I suppose none of > them will be in the dictionary > under their own entry. A few should be there > under {fi'o}. > > The class of actual (used) > > BAI is not a closed class, we can add to that > > simply by using one in a real way (I take it > that > > made up — and often farfetched — examples > do > > not count). > > The BPFK is not defining used cmavo only, it is > defining all official > cmavo.

To which I say that they have no business being official if they do not actually occur. But, since BPFK has to say something about every item on some list, how about just putting in boiler plate: "We have no specifics about what this expression may be used to mean, however there is some reason to think it will be in the general area of the th place of -/ There are no examples." This, of course, assumes that established tags have fairly clear and precise definitions. I don't feel that is always the case now, but I tend to be very fussy on that and what there is may be adequate for practical purposes.

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45px|bancusPosted by bancus on Wed 15 of June, 2005 00:33 GMT posts: 52

sefi'e:


> le tixnu cu cmila se fi'e lo lisri > The daughter laughs because of the made-up story.

I'm not sure causality should go that direction.

ka'a:

> mi vitke lo dinju be ka'a le jibri jatna be mi > I visit the building which my boss went to.

How is it the building the boss went to? Couldn't it also be the building that the boss departed from? Or the route through which the boss passed?

Other than these, this section has my support, but I'm not sure either is particularly egregious to the point where I'd vote against it, although the second comes awfully close.

mu'o mi'e bancus

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 22:39 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 03:49:43PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 5/15/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > Examples of se fi'e Usage > > > > > > > > mi pilno le tadji se fi'e lo nanba I followed the > > > > instructions to make bread. > > > > > > The English seems ambiguous between > > > {mi pilno le tadji lo nu zbasu lo nanba} and > > > {mi pilno le tadji be lo nu zbasu lo nanba}. > > > > > > I think {finti} would be used for bread only in very special > > > cases, and if you really finti bread you probably wouldn't be > > > following instructions. > > > > Point. Suggestions? > > Let's start with a sentence using {finti} as the selbri, and with > all places filled:

Stolen liberally. :-)

> > > > Examples of se be'i Usage > > > > > > > > mi pilno ti se be'i lo se mrilu > > > > I use this to send mail. > > > > > > That would be {mi pilno ti lo nu benji lo se mrilu}. > > > > Yes, it would. You have a better example? > > Again, let's write a full bridi with {benji}:

Also liberally stolen.

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 22:40 GMT

> mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > I write a story using mythological elements.

s/write/read s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e

> Examples of te pi'o Usage > >mi na ponse rau datni tepi'o le nu smadi >I don't have enough information to guess.

Do you really need to _own_ information in order to guess? You could dispose of public information for example. How about {djuno} instead of {ponse}?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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Posted by cmecau on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 22:40 GMT

> mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > I write a story using mythological elements.

s/write/read s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e

> Examples of te pi'o Usage > >mi na ponse rau datni tepi'o le nu smadi >I don't have enough information to guess.

Do you really need to _own_ information in order to guess? You could dispose of public information for example. How about {djuno} instead of {ponse}?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 22:54 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 03:24:37PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > > I write a story using mythological elements. > > s/write/read

s/tcidu/ciska/

> s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e

I disagree, given my change above. The process of writing itself uses those elements.

> > Examples of te pi'o Usage > > > >mi na ponse rau datni tepi'o le nu smadi > > > >I don't have enough information to guess. > > Do you really need to _own_ information in order > to guess? You could dispose of public information for > example. How about {djuno} instead of {ponse}?

It's actually a quote, but OK. Changed.

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 22:59 GMT

On 6/3/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 03:24:37PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi > > > I write a story using mythological elements. > > > > s/write/read > > s/tcidu/ciska/ > > > s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e > > I disagree, given my change above. The process of writing itself > uses those elements.

The process of ciska-ing consists of moving the pen on the paper, or carving the stone, etc. Writing a story is {finti}, not {ciska}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 23:05 GMT posts: 14214

On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 01:26:34AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 6/3/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 03:24:37PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi I write a story using > > > > mythological elements. > > > > > > s/write/read > > > > s/tcidu/ciska/ > > > > > s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e > > > > I disagree, given my change above. The process of writing > > itself uses those elements. > > The process of ciska-ing consists of moving the pen on the paper, > or carving the stone, etc. Writing a story is {finti}, not > {ciska}.

Fine. "finti" it is, then.

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 23:10 GMT

On 6/5/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 01:26:34AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > On 6/3/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 03:24:37PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > > > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi I write a story using > > > > > mythological elements. > > > > > > > > s/write/read > > > > > > s/tcidu/ciska/ > > > > > > > s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e > > > > > > I disagree, given my change above. The process of writing > > > itself uses those elements. > > > > The process of ciska-ing consists of moving the pen on the paper, > > or carving the stone, etc. Writing a story is {finti}, not > > {ciska}. > > Fine. "finti" it is, then.

But {ve fi'e} is {fi'o ve finti}, it would be {fo} in this case.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 23:12 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 09:31:17AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > On 6/5/05, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > On Sat, Jun 04, 2005 at 01:26:34AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > > On 6/3/05, Robin Lee Powell > > > wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 23, 2005 at 03:24:37PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as > > > > wrote: > > > > > > mi tcidu lo lisri ve fi'e lo ranmi I write a story using > > > > > > mythological elements. > > > > > > > > > > s/write/read > > > > > > > > s/tcidu/ciska/ > > > > > > > > > s/ve fi'e/be ve fi'e > > > > > > > > I disagree, given my change above. The process of writing > > > > itself uses those elements. > > > > > > The process of ciska-ing consists of moving the pen on the > > > paper, or carving the stone, etc. Writing a story is {finti}, > > > not {ciska}. > > > > Fine. "finti" it is, then. > > But {ve fi'e} is {fi'o ve finti}, it would be {fo} in this case.

Crap monkeys.

Alright; ciska + be ve fi'e.

Now go vote, dammit. :-)

-Robin

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Posted by Anonymous on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 23:13 GMT

> mi joi la .djen. casnu pu'a le cisma po ri > Jen and I discussed, and her smile was pleasant.

s/le cisma po ri/le nu ri cisma

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Mon 08 of Aug., 2005 23:14 GMT posts: 14214

On Mon, Jun 06, 2005 at 05:13:18PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: > > mi joi la .djen. casnu pu'a le cisma po ri > > Jen and I discussed, and her smile was pleasant. > > s/le cisma po ri/le nu ri cisma

Fixed.

-Robin

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rlpowellPosted by rlpowell on Tue 09 of Aug., 2005 00:01 GMT posts: 14214

On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 05:33:23PM -0700, wikidiscuss@lojban.org wrote: > Re: BPFK Section: Case sumtcita > > sefi'e: > > > le tixnu cu cmila se fi'e lo lisri > > > > The daughter laughs because of the made-up story. > > I'm not sure causality should go that direction.

Would you accept "The daughter's laughter is associated with a made-up story." ?

> ka'a: > > > mi vitke lo dinju be ka'a le jibri jatna be mi > > > > I visit the building which my boss went to. > > How is it the building the boss went to? Couldn't it also be the > building that the boss departed from? Or the route through which > the boss passed?

True.

How about "I visit the building associated with the going of my boss"?

-Robin

-- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

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Posted by Anonymous on Tue 09 of Aug., 2005 00:01 GMT

On Wed, 2005-06-15 at 22:59 -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 05:33:23PM -0700, wikidiscuss@lojban.org > wrote: > > Re: BPFK Section: Case sumtcita > > > > sefi'e: > > > > > le tixnu cu cmila se fi'e lo lisri > > > > > > The daughter laughs because of the made-up story. > > > > I'm not sure causality should go that direction. > > Would you accept "The daughter's laughter is associated with a made-up story." ?

Yes.

> > ka'a: > > > > > mi vitke lo dinju be ka'a le jibri jatna be mi > > > > > > I visit the building which my boss went to. > > > > How is it the building the boss went to? Couldn't it also be the > > building that the boss departed from? Or the route through which > > the boss passed? > > True. > > How about "I visit the building associated with the going of my > boss"?

That would be much better, yes.

-- Theodore Reed