Earlier discussions of the wiki front page

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Posted by rlpowell on Sat 05 of Aug., 2006 06:20 GMT posts: 14214
OK. I've been promising xorxes for a while to explain the various 
bits I don't like about his translations of the website interface, 
and I figured I might as well do it here, in public.

First off, mi mutce sinma la xorxes noi mutce gunka le pu nu fanva

There's just a huge amount of work in there; go you.

Secondly, some general points that colour my complaints: I believe 
that experts in a field should get "dibs" on defining terminology in 
that field. I consider myself an expert on computers (I've been a 
sysadmin for my entire adult life). I *strongly* dislike nonce 
lujvo.

The reason I didn't write this up before is I didn't have anything 
better; I've now gotten back to work on my "something better"; see 
http://teddyb.org/~rlpowell/hobbies/lojban/palm/misc/computer.html 
for more information on my philosophy of Lojban computer terminology 
and a bunch of word defs.

Last, but not least, I'm not going to mention here the many words I 
don't have complaints about.

OK, enough caveats, here we go.

papri for web page
See the essay; many notes about that. I suggest mutpapri.
stika for edit
Both stika and galfi suck, being non-agentive (they want events), but I prefer galfi in this case, because if I edit the sentence "mi klama" to read "mi pu klama", it is _much_ more natural to phrase that as "mi jai galfi lu mi klama li'u lu mi pu klama li'u" then as "mi jai stika lo ka le jufra cu dunli lu mi klama li'u kei lo ni co'e zo pu" or whatever you'd have to say with stika. stika just doesn't make much sense here.
pructa, mrilu, nalzu'e as preview, post, cancel in the forums
nalzu'e is fine, but "preview" means "see what this would look like before you commit to your action". I have no idea what "pructa" means, but surely it is something like "look at the past form of X"? If pructa was defined to mean something like "view X before event Y", then maybe, but that seems counter-intuitive in the extreme. mrilu is flat-out wrong; the fact that our forums happen to send mail notwithstanding, that's not the action being undertaken with that button; the action being undertaken is adding your comments to the forums. More generally, you are finishing/committing your edits to a new forum post. My suggestions are cipra galfi, co'u galfi, and na galfi. For the first one, I'd actually prefer something with pu'o, but I can't think of anything good; what I want is ((pu'o galfi) zgana), but I can't remember/figure out how to get it. Also, for forum posts rather than normal edits, "co'u jmina" is probably a bit better, but I don't know that we have the option of distinguishing the two. A more general "cancel" is "na gasnu".
plivei for login
Absolutely not. plivei is clearly "log" or "log entry" in the sense of "my apache log records that you grabbed foo.gif at 23:11 yesterday". Logging in is about establishing credentials based on a previously existing record, but the establishment of the user's rights to a set of credentials is key, not the record itself. I suggest (in my essay) co'a se jaspu; see the essay for other related terms too.
ralpari for home page
I hate nonce lujvo. "ralju pari" wastes only one syllable, FFS.
  
More to come later.

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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Mon 07 of Aug., 2006 13:38 GMT
On 8/6/06, rlpowell wrote:

> ;stika for edit : Both stika and galfi suck, being non-agentive (they want 
> events), but I prefer galfi in this case, because if I edit the sentence 
> "mi klama" to read "mi pu klama", it is _much_ more natural to phrase 
> that as "mi jai galfi lu mi klama li'u lu mi pu klama li'u" then as "mi jai stika 
> lo ka le jufra cu dunli lu mi klama li'u kei lo ni co'e zo pu" or whatever you'd 
> have to say with stika. stika just doesn't make much sense here.

This is how I think of the binxo/cenba/galfi/stika quartet:

binxo: x1 changes into x2 
cenba: x1 changes in aspect x2

The difference between those two is that after a nu binxo, the x1 is no longer 
there and has been transformed into something else, the x2, whereas after 
a nu cenba the x1 is still there, only that some aspect of it has changed. 
This is merely a matter of point of view, since any change can be described 
as a nu binxo or as a nu cenba, depending on what you want to focus on. 
Whether you decide that the thing that changed is still the same thing or not 
is totally arbitrary.

Now, I take:

galfi: gasnu lo nu binxo 
stika: gasnu lo nu cenba

What happens when we edit a page? Do we change a page into some other 
page, or do we change some aspect of it, while the page remains the same 
page? Both are possible, but at least for me the prototypical editing involves 
just an addition or modification, perhaps just adding a comma, not a drastic 
transformation of one page into some other page. While it is possible to 
think of the result of adding a comma as changing a page into another page, 
I prefer to view it as a modification.

Of course, that assumes that {stika} means "x1 changes x2 in aspect x3" 
rather that whatever the gi'uste says it means, which I can't really fathom.

  
> ;pructa, mrilu, nalzu'e as preview, post, cancel in the forums : nalzu'e is 
> fine, but "preview" means "see what this would look like before you commit 
> to your action". I have no idea what "pructa" means, but surely it is 
> something like "look at the past form of X"? If pructa was defined to mean 
> something like "view X before event Y", then maybe, but that seems 
> counter-intuitive in the extreme.

Why counter-intuitive? That's exactly what "pre"-"view" means.

I think pru- should work as a general translation for pre-, and if not then 
we should have something else for this because it's a very useful prefix.

> mrilu is flat-out wrong; the fact that our forums happen to send mail 
> notwithstanding, that's not the action being undertaken with that button; 
> the action being undertaken is adding your comments to the forums. 
> More generally, you are finishing/committing your edits to a new forum 
> post. My suggestions are cipra galfi, co'u galfi, and na galfi.

I think focusing on modification here is wrong, since most posts 
are posted once and never modified, but I don't really intend to defend 
{mrilu}.

> For the first one, I'd actually prefer something with pu'o, but I can't think of 
> anything good; what I want is ((pu'o galfi) zgana), but I can't remember/figure 
> out how to get it.

{pu'o zei galfi zgana}.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by JohnCowan on Mon 07 of Aug., 2006 16:23 GMT posts: 149
Jorge Llamb?as scripsit:

> The difference between those two is that after a nu binxo, the x1 is 
> no longer there and has been transformed into something else, the x2, 
> whereas after a nu cenba the x1 is still there, only that some aspect 
> of it has changed. This is merely a matter of point of view, since 
> any change can be described as a nu binxo or as a nu cenba, depending 
> on what you want to focus on. Whether you decide that the thing that 
> changed is still the same thing or not is totally arbitrary.

+1
  
> stika: gasnu lo nu cenba

snip

> Of course, that assumes that {stika} means "x1 changes x2 in aspect x3" 
> rather that whatever the gi'uste says it means, which I can't really fathom.

The point about "stika" is that it's quantitative. It works like this:

da stika lo ni de cu broda li tu'o

means that the agent da changes the broda-ness of de by the numeric value tu'o. 
For example:

mi stika lo ni le jupta'e cu glare vau li panono

means that I warm the oven by 100 degrees.

If the abstraction is ka rather than ni, then da is changing de to have or not 
have the broda property.

-- 
Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes: John Cowan 
I admire him, I freely admit it, http://www.ccil.org/~cowan 
and when his time comes I shall cowan@ccil.org 
buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake.

  
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ralju pagbu

rlpowell Posted by rlpowell on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 01:53 GMT posts: 14214
On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:53:42AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> On 8/6/06, rlpowell wrote: 
> 
> >;stika for edit : Both stika and galfi suck, being non-agentive 
> >(they want events), but I prefer galfi in this case, because if I 
> >edit the sentence "mi klama" to read "mi pu klama", it is _much_ 
> >more natural to phrase that as "mi jai galfi lu mi klama li'u lu 
> >mi pu klama li'u" then as "mi jai stika lo ka le jufra cu dunli 
> >lu mi klama li'u kei lo ni co'e zo pu" or whatever you'd have to 
> >say with stika. stika just doesn't make much sense here. 
> 
> This is how I think of the binxo/cenba/galfi/stika quartet: 
> 
> binxo: x1 changes into x2 
> 
> cenba: x1 changes in aspect x2 
> 
> The difference between those two is that after a nu binxo, the x1 
> is no longer there and has been transformed into something else, 
> the x2, whereas after a nu cenba the x1 is still there, only that 
> some aspect of it has changed. This is merely a matter of point of 
> view, since any change can be described as a nu binxo or as a nu 
> cenba, depending on what you want to focus on. Whether you decide 
> that the thing that changed is still the same thing or not 
> is totally arbitrary.

I'm with you on all of that.

> Now, I take: 
> 
> galfi: gasnu lo nu binxo 
> 
> stika: gasnu lo nu cenba

Clearly not, because the x1 of both is an event.

> What happens when we edit a page? Do we change a page into some 
> other page, or do we change some aspect of it, while the page 
> remains the same page? Both are possible, but at least for me the 
> prototypical editing involves just an addition or modification, 
> perhaps just adding a comma, not a drastic transformation of one 
> page into some other page. While it is possible to think of the 
> result of adding a comma as changing a page into another page, I 
> prefer to view it as a modification.

I agree with almost all of that, however:

1. I assert that galfi *is* a modification, not a transformation; 
the keyword is modify, FFS!

2. Regardless of all of the above, the place structure of stika is 
still very, very bad (ignoring the fact that it uses old ka, even), 
because it's about changing things by an *amount*, and that doesn't 
make any sense here.

> Of course, that assumes that {stika} means "x1 changes x2 in 
> aspect x3" rather that whatever the gi'uste says it means, which I 
> can't really fathom.

Old ka. Pretend it says:

x1 (event) adjusts/regulates/changes x2 in properly x3 (ka/ni) by 
amount/degree x4

> >;pructa, mrilu, nalzu'e as preview, post, cancel in the forums : 
> >nalzu'e is fine, but "preview" means "see what this would look 
> >like before you commit to your action". I have no idea what 
> >"pructa" means, but surely it is something like "look at the past 
> >form of X"? If pructa was defined to mean something like "view X 
> >before event Y", then maybe, but that seems counter-intuitive in 
> >the extreme. 
> 
> Why counter-intuitive? That's exactly what "pre"-"view" means.

This is one of the places you and I disagree: I do not, in any way, 
hold the English words used for these things to be sacred. Quite 
the opposite: I think a great deal of them should die in the arse.

The English definition of "preview" fits quite well, in fact, but 
the English definition you'd *expect* from "pre" + "view":

1. An advance showing, as of a movie or art exhibition, to which a selected 
audience is invited before public presentation begins.

2. An advance viewing or exhibition, especially the presentation of several 
scenes advertising a forthcoming movie; a trailer.

3. An introductory or preliminary message, sample, or overview; a foretaste.

The English word means something like "a view of something before it 
is completed or made generally available", which is a lot to take 
out of "pre" + "view", and a *whole lot* to take from "purci" + 
"catlu".

> I think pru- should work as a general translation for pre-, and if 
> not then we should have something else for this because it's a 
> very useful prefix.

I think "pru-" == "pre-" is a good general guideline, but in *this* 
case, it seems to me to be like expecting to use "carvi" + "clupa" 
for a Lojban word for "rainbow".

Having said all that, if you want to define a place structure for 
pructa that makes this make sense, I don't care all that much.

> >mrilu is flat-out wrong; the fact that our forums happen to send 
> >mail notwithstanding, that's not the action being undertaken with 
> >that button; the action being undertaken is adding your comments 
> >to the forums. More generally, you are finishing/committing your 
> >edits to a new forum post. My suggestions are cipra galfi, co'u 
> >galfi, and na galfi. 
> 
> I think focusing on modification here is wrong, since most posts 
> are posted once and never modified, but I don't really intend to 
> defend {mrilu}.

So {jmina} instead of {galfi}, then.

Of course, from the computer geek perspective, which is mine, every 
post is a modification of the database.

> >For the first one, I'd actually prefer something with pu'o, but I 
> >can't think of anything good; what I want is ((pu'o galfi) 
> >zgana), but I can't remember/figure out how to get it. 
> 
> {pu'o zei galfi zgana}.

Ewwww.

-Robin

-- 
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ 
Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" 
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 12:13 GMT
On 8/7/06, John Cowan wrote: 
> 
> For example: 
> 
> mi stika lo ni le jupta'e cu glare vau li panono 
> 
> means that I warm the oven by 100 degrees.

Or cool it?

But assuming these are right:

le toknu cu zenba lo ni ce'u glare 
le toknu cu jdika lo ni ce'u glare 
le toknu cu cenba lo ni ce'u glare

And thus:

mi zengau le toknu lo ni ce'u glare 
mi jdikygau le toknu lo ni ce'u glare 
mi cnegau le toknu lo ni ce'u glare

then using {ni} without {ce'u} doesn't seem right, and {stika} should be 
like {cnegau}, or eventually like {cneri'a}.

(I hadn't noticed before the strange voiced-voiceless parallels in 
zenba-jdika cenba-stika.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 12:43 GMT
On 8/7/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:53:42AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> 
> > > Now, I take: 
> > 
> > galfi: gasnu lo nu binxo 
> > 
> > stika: gasnu lo nu cenba 
> 
> Clearly not, because the x1 of both is an event.

Yes, that's why I said "I take". I find the gi'uste so thoroughly inconsistent 
with those things that I mostly ignore them, especially when I don't see any 
point for them.

If you prefer:

galfi: rinka lo nu binxo 
stika : rinka lo nu cenba

That still doesn't match the gi'uste perfectly because of the "under 
conditions" 
places, and because {stika} would seem to be missing a place.

> 1. I assert that galfi *is* a modification, not a transformation; 
> the keyword is modify, FFS!

Keywords aside, do you think that after a nu galfi the x2 of {galfi} 
is still there, like the x1 of {cenba} after a nu cenba, or that it is 
no longer there, like the x1 of {binxo} after a nu binxo? In other words, 
does {galfi} involve changing something into something else, or changing 
something into itself?

> 2. Regardless of all of the above, the place structure of stika is 
> still very, very bad (ignoring the fact that it uses old ka, even), 
> because it's about changing things by an *amount*, and that doesn't 
> make any sense here.

I agree.

> > Of course, that assumes that {stika} means "x1 changes x2 in 
> > aspect x3" rather that whatever the gi'uste says it means, which I 
> > can't really fathom. 
> 
> Old ka. Pretend it says: 
> 
> x1 (event) adjusts/regulates/changes x2 in properly x3 (ka/ni) by 
> amount/degree x4

That would be more consistent. I would still ignore the "(event)" part, as 
everybody ignores it for {galfi}.

... 
> > I think focusing on modification here is wrong, since most posts 
> > are posted once and never modified, but I don't really intend to 
> > defend {mrilu}. 
> 
> So {jmina} instead of {galfi}, then.

One problem is that {jmina} is already in use for something else.

> Of course, from the computer geek perspective, which is mine, every 
> post is a modification of the database.

Right, but these words are meant for the end user, not for the developer. 
And you wouldn't want every button to be labeled {galfi}, even though probably 
they all involve modifying something or other.

mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

rlpowell Posted by rlpowell on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 20:03 GMT posts: 14214
Much snipped because of general agreement (like the stupidity of the 
"(event)" crap).

On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 09:55:31AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> On 8/7/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> >On Mon, Aug 07, 2006 at 10:53:42AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> >1. I assert that galfi *is* a modification, not a 
> >transformation; the keyword is modify, FFS! 
> 
> Keywords aside, do you think that after a nu galfi the x2 of 
> {galfi} is still there, like the x1 of {cenba} after a nu cenba, 
> or that it is no longer there, like the x1 of {binxo} after a nu 
> binxo? In other words, does {galfi} involve changing something 
> into something else, or changing something into itself?

I don't see the distinction as being particularily interesting or 
useful, but I do agree that galfi is"more like binxo than cenba in 
this respect.

> ... 
> >> I think focusing on modification here is wrong, since most 
> >> posts are posted once and never modified, but I don't really 
> >> intend to defend {mrilu}. 
> > 
> >So {jmina} instead of {galfi}, then. 
> 
> One problem is that {jmina} is already in use for something else.

I just looked at all the uses of {jmina} in the export, and I don't 
see a problem.

> >Of course, from the computer geek perspective, which is mine, 
> >every post is a modification of the database. 
> 
> Right, but these words are meant for the end user, not for the 
> developer.

To some extent, yes, but that won't lead me to accept atrocities 
like "kliki". There's "appropriate to the audience" and then 
there's "wrong".

> And you wouldn't want every button to be labeled {galfi}, even 
> though probably they all involve modifying something or other.

True.

Next topic:

"bevri" for "import/export" in the language editing section.

That just seems like total nonsense; can you explain it?

Is there something wrong with benji?

-Robin

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 20:28 GMT
On 8/8/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> 
> I don't see the distinction as being particularily interesting or 
> useful, but I do agree that galfi is"more like binxo than cenba in 
> this respect.

My point is that "edit" is more about taking a thing and doing things 
to it so that it remains essentially the same thing, with some aspect 
slightly changed, than about taking a thing and converting it into some 
other thing. Sometimes this is not the case, sometimes a page can be 
"edited" into a completely different page, but that is not the prototypical 
editing.

  
> > Right, but these words are meant for the end user, not for the 
> > developer. 
> 
> To some extent, yes, but that won't lead me to accept atrocities 
> like "kliki". There's "appropriate to the audience" and then 
> there's "wrong".

I tried to stick to gismu as much as possible, then simple lujvo, 
and only in a few cases did I resort to fu'ivla or unofficial gismu, 
when I couldn't come up with anything else that convinced me. 
I don't have a special phobia towards new words as long as we 
don't go about creating them unthinkingly, but I accept others do, 
and it is up to them to come up with better alternatives. (I suspect 
that if the gismu list had been created today rather than some 
decades ago, we would have a gismu for "click" that would look 
more or less like {kliki}.)

> Next topic: 
> 
> "bevri" for "import/export" in the language editing section. 
> 
> That just seems like total nonsense; can you explain it? 
> 
> Is there something wrong with benji?

I think this was again a case of it being used for something 
else. I don't exactly remember.

mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by stevo on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 20:48 GMT posts: 381
In a message dated 8/8/2006 3:41:01 PM Central Standard Time, 
jjllambias@gmail.com writes:

  
> > To some extent, yes, but that won't lead me to accept atrocities 
> > like "kliki". There's "appropriate to the audience" and then 
> > there's "wrong". 
> 
> I tried to stick to gismu as much as possible, then simple lujvo, 
> and only in a few cases did I resort to fu'ivla or unofficial gismu, 
> when I couldn't come up with anything else that convinced me. 
> I don't have a special phobia towards new words as long as we 
> don't go about creating them unthinkingly, but I accept others do, 
> and it is up to them to come up with better alternatives. (I suspect 
> that if the gismu list had been created today rather than some 
> decades ago, we would have a gismu for "click" that would look 
> more or less like {kliki}.) 
>

How about "bapli"?

stevo

 

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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Tue 08 of Aug., 2006 20:58 GMT
On 8/8/06, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com wrote: 
> 
> How about "bapli"?

The place structure would have to be something like "x1 clicks 
on x2 in order to select/activate item/command/function x3".

mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

rlpowell Posted by rlpowell on Wed 09 of Aug., 2006 00:31 GMT posts: 14214
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 05:40:18PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> On 8/8/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> > 
> >I don't see the distinction as being particularily interesting or 
> >useful, but I do agree that galfi is"more like binxo than cenba 
> >in this respect. 
> 
> My point is that "edit" is more about taking a thing and doing 
> things to it so that it remains essentially the same thing, with 
> some aspect slightly changed, than about taking a thing and 
> converting it into some other thing. Sometimes this is not the 
> case, sometimes a page can be "edited" into a completely different 
> page, but that is not the prototypical editing.

Fair enough, but we don't have a better word for that than galfi 
that I can see in terms of usuable place structure.

> >> Right, but these words are meant for the end user, not for the 
> >> developer. 
> > 
> >To some extent, yes, but that won't lead me to accept atrocities 
> >like "kliki". There's "appropriate to the audience" and then 
> >there's "wrong". 
> 
> I tried to stick to gismu as much as possible, then simple lujvo, 
> and only in a few cases did I resort to fu'ivla or unofficial 
> gismu, when I couldn't come up with anything else that convinced 
> me. I don't have a special phobia towards new words as long as we 
> don't go about creating them unthinkingly, but I accept others do, 
> and it is up to them to come up with better alternatives.

OK. It's worth noting here that "kliki" *really* bothers me. I 
have a hard time even thinking about it without getting quite upset. 
So if I'm not civil, that's why. Perversely, being aware of that 
will probably keep me civil.

Having said that, this has *nothing* to do with word phobia; kliki 
is simply wrong in every respect.

> (I suspect that if the gismu list had been created today rather 
> than some decades ago, we would have a gismu for "click" that 
> would look more or less like {kliki}.)

Even if we had a word for "click" as in the action you take with 
your fingers to activate a mouse button, it is *still the wrong 
word*, because it doesn't actually have anything to do with the 
action taking place!

The action taking place is that you are directing the computer to 
make use of a web address. The fact that you are clicking a mouse 
to do it is not just incidental, it's harmfully irrelevant. It 
gives people a sense of homogeneity where none exists.

Things you click on that aren't web links:

menu items, program icons, window bars, window corners, etc, etc, 
etc

Ways of activating web links that aren't clicking:

web robots, scripting languages, text-only browsers, using a 
touchpad, using an eye tracker, using a data glove, using a pen 
comuting device, using a cell phone (depends on the design), using 
the keyboard (I've had to use IE with a keyboard only when my mouse 
wasn't recognized), copying it into the URL field in your browser by 
hand, ... I'm sure I'm missing some.

kliki simply doesn't match the process, and in many cases (I use a 
text-only browser all the time) it doesn't even match the action.

IMO, the correct word for the verb in a translation of "click here 
to read about weebles!" is "pilno".

> >Next topic: 
> > 
> >"bevri" for "import/export" in the language editing section. 
> > 
> >That just seems like total nonsense; can you explain it? 
> > 
> >Is there something wrong with benji? 
> 
> I think this was again a case of it being used for something else. 
> I don't exactly remember.

Do you mean that "bevri lo bangu" is used in more than one distinct 
context? If not, what do you mean?

-Robin

-- 
http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ 
Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" 
Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/

  
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ralju pagbu

rlpowell Posted by rlpowell on Wed 09 of Aug., 2006 00:33 GMT posts: 14214
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 06:10:38PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> On 8/8/06, MorphemeAddict@wmconnect.com 
> wrote: 
> > 
> >How about "bapli"? 
> 
> The place structure would have to be something like "x1 clicks on 
> x2 in order to select/activate item/command/function x3".

Diatribes aside, the right word is "pilno".

ko pilno ti lo nu cilre fi la .uibl.

-Robin

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Wed 09 of Aug., 2006 13:18 GMT
On 8/8/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 05:40:18PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> > My point is that "edit" is more about taking a thing and doing 
> > things to it so that it remains essentially the same thing, with 
> > some aspect slightly changed, than about taking a thing and 
> > converting it into some other thing. Sometimes this is not the 
> > case, sometimes a page can be "edited" into a completely different 
> > page, but that is not the prototypical editing. 
> 
> Fair enough, but we don't have a better word for that than galfi 
> that I can see in terms of usuable place structure.

How do you think we should deal with {stika}? Never use it, because 
it's place structure as it appears in the gi'uste is unusable, or use it 
with the obvious place structure "x1 changes x2 in aspect x3 with change 
x4"?

  
> Things you click on that aren't web links: 
> 
> menu items, program icons, window bars, window corners, etc, etc, 
> etc

Those would of course be valid things to use as the x2 of kliki, the x2 of 
kliki would not be restricted to web links.

Perhaps I have the advantage that "click" (Spanish "cliquear/clicar", 
Esperanto "kliki") for me doesn't have so strong associations with the 
original English meaning. I am of course not proposing {kliki} for the 
general meaning of English "to click", only for the widespread computer 
sense.

> Diatribes aside, the right word is "pilno". 
> 
> ko pilno ti lo nu cilre fi la .uibl.

I think {pilno} might be too vague for it. (Should that be {dei} 
rather than {ti}?)

  
> > >Next topic: 
> > > 
> > >"bevri" for "import/export" in the language editing section. 
> > > 
> > >That just seems like total nonsense; can you explain it? 
> > > 
> > >Is there something wrong with benji? 
> > 
> > I think this was again a case of it being used for something else. 
> > I don't exactly remember. 
> 
> Do you mean that "bevri lo bangu" is used in more than one distinct 
> context? If not, what do you mean?

I used {benji} for "send" and "receive", (and for "submit"), and {bevri} 
(barbei/nerbei) for "export"/"import". I can't really tell if a given 
translation is used in a single context or not.

mi'e xorxes

  
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ralju pagbu

rlpowell Posted by rlpowell on Thu 10 of Aug., 2006 00:08 GMT posts: 14214
On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 10:31:47AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> On 8/8/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> >On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 05:40:18PM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> >> My point is that "edit" is more about taking a thing and doing 
> >> things to it so that it remains essentially the same thing, 
> >> with some aspect slightly changed, than about taking a thing 
> >> and converting it into some other thing. Sometimes this is not 
> >> the case, sometimes a page can be "edited" into a completely 
> >> different page, but that is not the prototypical editing. 
> > 
> >Fair enough, but we don't have a better word for that than galfi 
> >that I can see in terms of usuable place structure. 
> 
> How do you think we should deal with {stika}? Never use it, 
> because it's place structure as it appears in the gi'uste is 
> unusable, or use it with the obvious place structure "x1 changes 
> x2 in aspect x3 with change x4"?

That's not the obvious place structure to me; the obvious place 
structure to me is "x1 changes x2 in aspect x3 *in amount* x4". 
It's the "amount" part that makes it not appropriate in this case.

> >Things you click on that aren't web links: 
> > 
> >menu items, program icons, window bars, window corners, etc, etc, 
> >etc 
> 
> Those would of course be valid things to use as the x2 of kliki, 
> the x2 of kliki would not be restricted to web links.

Fair enough.

> Perhaps I have the advantage that "click" (Spanish 
> "cliquear/clicar", Esperanto "kliki") for me doesn't have so 
> strong associations with the original English meaning. I am of 
> course not proposing {kliki} for the general meaning of English 
> "to click", only for the widespread computer sense.

Very possibly, but even given a word for exactly the computer sense, 
I wouldn't use it for "click here to learn about weebles"; it's 
wrong in English, and it's wrong in Lojban. I would use such a word 
in a document explaining how to use a computer interface from the 
ground up, though, like "to print, click on the "file" menu, then 
select print by clicking on it".

> >Diatribes aside, the right word is "pilno". 
> > 
> > ko pilno ti lo nu 
> > cilre fi la .uibl. 
> 
> I think {pilno} might be too vague for it.

Why?

> (Should that be {dei} rather than {ti}?)

Enh. I suppose.

> >> >Next topic: 
> >> > 
> >> >"bevri" for "import/export" in the language editing section. 
> >> > 
> >> >That just seems like total nonsense; can you explain it? 
> >> > 
> >> >Is there something wrong with benji? 
> >> 
> >> I think this was again a case of it being used for something 
> >> else. I don't exactly remember. 
> > 
> >Do you mean that "bevri lo bangu" is used in more than one 
> >distinct context? If not, what do you mean? 
> 
> I used {benji} for "send" and "receive", (and for "submit"), and 
> {bevri} (barbei/nerbei) for "export"/"import". I can't really tell 
> if a given translation is used in a single context or not.

nod* I'd be find with bartu or nenri + benji, but bevri just seems
nonsensical here.

-Robin

  
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ralju pagbu

Posted by Anonymous on Thu 10 of Aug., 2006 13:53 GMT
On 8/9/06, Robin Lee Powell wrote: 
> On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 10:31:47AM -0300, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: 
> > How do you think we should deal with {stika}? Never use it, 
> > because it's place structure as it appears in the gi'uste is 
> > unusable, or use it with the obvious place structure "x1 changes 
> > x2 in aspect x3 with change x4"? 
> 
> That's not the obvious place structure to me; the obvious place 
> structure to me is "x1 changes x2 in aspect x3 *in amount* x4". 
> It's the "amount" part that makes it not appropriate in this case.

If {stika} and {cenba} are to be restricted to quantitative changes in 
amount only, which word are we left with for general changes in things 
that do not involve transformations into new things?

  
> > Perhaps I have the advantage that "click" (Spanish 
> > "cliquear/clicar", Esperanto "kliki") for me doesn't have so 
> > strong associations with the original English meaning. I am of 
> > course not proposing {kliki} for the general meaning of English 
> > "to click", only for the widespread computer sense. 
> 
> Very possibly, but even given a word for exactly the computer sense, 
> I wouldn't use it for "click here to learn about weebles"; it's 
> wrong in English, and it's wrong in Lojban.

How can it be wrong in English, if it's common usage? By what 
standard is it wrong? And why would it be wrong in Lojban if we are 
free to define the new word so that it is right?

  
> > >Diatribes aside, the right word is "pilno". 
> > > 
> > > ko pilno ti lo nu 
> > > cilre fi la .uibl. 
> > 
> > I think {pilno} might be too vague for it. 
> 
> Why?

Because "use" has a much more general meaning than "click". First you 
have to realize that "this" is a clickable link in order to figure out that the 
proper way to use it is to click on it.

  
> > I used {benji} for "send" and "receive", (and for "submit"), and 
> > {bevri} (barbei/nerbei) for "export"/"import". I can't really tell 
> > if a given translation is used in a single context or not. 
> 
> *nod* I'd be find with bartu or nenri + benji, but bevri just seems 
> nonsensical here.

It's more metaphorical, yes, but I don't find it nonsensical. Anyway, if you 
think there won't be conflicts with the other uses of {benji}, I don't mind 
using {benji} for that too.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

This post is from an old version of the wiki. It used to be accessed via a link from the bottom of the HomePage. - Dalton

Can we shift the subheadings down to unlocked editable pages? I appreciate why you would want the front page to be uneditable, but we may want to add further subheadings, to improve navigability from the front page.


.i ru'a da ze'a djica le za'i jimpe le kulnu valsi is broken in two; le kulnu valsi is in a separate paragraph.


.i palci ki'a .i xu dramau falu

ko morji le du'u le pu'u zbasu la .uiki. cu marde lei pilno be la lojban. le cabna je balvi rolre'izda


.u'i marde ki'a .i je'enai


na jimpe le du'u da'u se smuni makau .i ki'uma lo pu'u zbasu la .uiki. cu na'e xamgu to le pilno be la lojban. toi va'i palci


.imu'ibo ru'e le pu'u fanva la alis. pu cu'u palci


(Perhaps move the road map on the front page (which is my fault) to Lojban...) — nitcion. (I like the index up front.)


I want to organize the wiki-specific links so that the most important are listed concisely at the top, and the others are explained at the bottom. Something like this, unless y'all have a better idea:

RecentChanges - MostPopular - DirectoryListing

  • Wiki — me la .uikis.
    • What is a WikiWikiWeb? A description of this application.
    • Learn HowToUseWiki and learn about AddingPages.
    • Be sure to follow the Guidelines for Links.
    • Please familiarize yourself with WikiPolicy.
    • Have any ideas for WikiImprovement? Please share them!
    • Read the ReleaseNotes.
    • Take a look at some RandomPages - changed daily.
    • Please sign your name in RecentVisitors.
    • backups(external link) are available for public download.
    • Use the SandBox page to experiment with Wiki pages.

It's shorter, and people won't have to scroll down and peer about for RecentChanges. The first person to expect no objections should go ahead and make this change zo'o. mi'e jezrax


nu tadni la lojban.

Any good reason why this isn't nu cilre la lojban., which fits more with the theme?