BPFK gismu Section: Problems With ka

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jarco is broken, it's just a question of how. Either:

  • jarco means "x1 showes itself to have property x2", which is of limited utility and contradicted by its notes, OR
  • jarco means "x1 shows something unspecifiable to have property x2", which is just plain broken

Both Bob and John believe that the second option is true, and that the problem is that jarco uses the old (pre-du'u) definition of ka. This is borne out by the following phrase in the notes: (simple presence could be expressed by leka [object] cu zvati), which is totally illegal under the current ka.

I'm not sure how to fix this. I think the right thing is to put a "thing having property" place between the x2 and x3. Fixes the problem, doesn't screw usage too badly (I doubt anyone much used the x3), and doesn't put the thing far away from its property in the place structure) as making the thing the x4 would. I'm totally open to suggestions, though.

Bob notes that we need to look for other cases.

There are 163 gismu that contain "propert" or the word "ka". They are listed below. I would like someone else to check them, please. I do enough around here. You're looking for "ka" (or, equivalently, "property" places) for which the thing having the property is in any way unclear.


Of the 163 gismu listed, there are seven (cmima, gunma, lacpu, lenjo, minra, ratni, selci) that seem to be there by accident.

We can divide the remaining 156 in nine groups:

Group 1: x1 is XXX in property x2

(with eventual places such as by standard, under conditions, to observer, among members of set, etc.)

This is the biggest group with 45+10 cases. The 45 are: banli barda bebna carmi caxno cenba cimni ckaji cmalu cnici condi curve daplu denmi dikni drani fadni jdika kalsa kandi kantu makcu manfo milxe mulno mupli mutce pindi pluja prane ralci ricfu rirci ruble sampu simlu stodi traji tsal vipsi vitci vitno vrici zasni zenba. The other 10 are: gradu ranxi satci suksa, which have the property in x3 and a standard or similar in x2, cinmo ganse, which are somewhat odd, darsi tarti troci, which can take an event in x2 (makes more sense than a property), and girzu, whose place structure needs clarifying.

Group 2: x1 is XXX to x2 in (x1's) property x3

(a couple of them have by standard x4)

This group has 12+1 cases. The 12 are: cfipu cizra cnino fange mansa melbi slabu trina vajni xajmi zdile zunti. The other one is skicu, which has an additional agent place in front.

Group 3: x1 reacts XXX to x2 due to (x2's) property x3

This group has 4+1 cases: ckasu ckire fengu jilra, plus xrani in which x1 doesn't react to the property but rather affects it. (It is odd that xrani has this place structure but ckire doesn't, though.)

Group 4: x1 is XXX compared to x2 in property x3

This group has 16+3 cases: bancu darno dukti dunli frica jbini jibni jimte lamji mapti mleca panra ralju sarxe simsa zmadu, and the odd 3: karbi, which adds an agent in front, rimni, which has the property in x4, and talsa, which is somewhat strange and probably does not belong here.

Group 5: x1 is an XXX, characterized by x?

(usually with other intervening places)

This group has 22 cases: cedra cinse ciste citsi ckiku dinko fetsi jendu julne jurme klesi kruvi linsi nakni patxu pijne rafsi tansi tarci vidru xislu zbepi

Group 6: x1 (ka) is an XXX property of x2

This group has 10 cases: cfila cimde funca jinzi kampu ranji steci tcini tengu vrusi. It is not clear that all of these really need properties in x1.

Group 7: These contain a warning like this one in their definition: "x? may be a specific object, a commodity (mass), an event, or a property; pedantically, for objects/commodities, this is sumti-raising from ownership of the object/commodity". Some of them involve the transfer of this object/commodity and so presumably if it was a property it would apply to the old or to the new "owner".

This group has 16 cases: canja cirko cnemu dirba dunda friti jbera jdima jerna jinga kargu lebna pleji prali vamji vecnu

Group 8: In these, the property does not seem to apply to anything, and should probably be an event.

This group has 11 cases: bapli cmoni cumki jgira jicmu kajde kufra lakne pajni stika tsapi

Group 9: The remaining 5 cases:

ciksi x1 (person) explains x2 (event/state/property) to x3 with explanation x4 (du'u)

cipra x1 (process/event) is a test for/proof of property/state x2 in subject x3 (individ./set/mass)

cnano x1 value is a norm/average in property/amount x2 (ka/ni) among x3(s) (set) by standard x4

jarco x1 (agent) shows/exhibits/displays/reveals/demonstrates x2 (property) to audience x3

sisku x1 seeks/searches/looks for property x2 among set x3 (complete specification of set)


bancu

banli

bapli

barda

bebna

canja

carmi

caxno

cedra

cenba

cfila

cfipu

ciksi

cimde

cimni

cinmo

cinse

cipra

cirko

ciste

citsi

cizra

ckaji

ckasu

ckiku

ckire

cmalu

cmima

cmoni

cnano

cnemu

cnici

cnino

condi

cumki

curve

daplu

darno

darsi

denmi

dikni

dinko

dirba

drani

dukti

dunda

dunli

fadni

fange

fengu

fetsi

frica

friti

funca

ganse

girzu

gradu

gunma

jarco

jbera

jbini

jdika

jdima

jendu

jerna

jgira

jibni

jicmu

jilra

jimte

jinga

jinzi

julne

jurme

kajde

kalsa

kampu

kandi

kantu

karbi

kargu

klesi

kruvi

kufra

lacpu

lakne

lamji

lebna

lenjo

linsi

makcu

manfo

mansa

mapti

melbi

milxe

minra

mleca

mulno

mupli

mutce

nakni

pajni

panra

patxu

pijne

pindi

pleji

pluja

prali

prane

rafsi

ralci

ralju

ranji

ranxi

ratni

ricfu

rimni

rirci

ruble

sampu

sarxe

satci

selci

simlu

simsa

sisku

skicu

slabu

steci

stika

stodi

suksa

talsa

tansi

tarci

tarti

tcini

tengu

traji

trina

troci

tsali

tsapi

vajni

vamji

vecnu

vidru

vipsi

vitci

vitno

vrici

vrusi

xajmi

xislu

xrani

zasni

zbepi

zdile

zenba

zmadu

zunti