'''jai''' and '''fai''' for Other Places

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[18:02] <ksion> doi la kribacr no'u nelci be zo jai .i xu do jinvi lodu'u ma'a nitcu lo cmavo poi simsa zo jai gi'e vimcu lo sucta lo drata be lo pamoi be'o sumti stuzi

[18:03] <ksion> mi'u lo'u sejaise le'u .i ku'i zmadu tolclani

[18:03] <ksion> gi'e mleca cfipu

[18:03] <@xalbo> .i pe'i na nitcu

[18:04] <@xalbo> .i lo'u se jai se le'u mapti

[18:04] <kribacr> .ie

[18:04] <@xalbo> .i lo'u jai se le'u mi jai se stidi

[18:05] <ksion> .i uinai .i mi na sejaise nelci do'o fai lonu na tugni mi

[18:06] <ksion> to u'i toi

[18:07] <ksion> Welll, maybe you're right. This little idea came to me today and thought it could work.

[18:07] <ksion> If you want to convert other places, {jaixiPA} is also a possible syntax for now, pe'i.

[18:08] <@xalbo> The problem is mainly that you'd need a lot of them, and you'd want them systematically named.

[18:08] <kribacr> ni'o za'a .ue la .lojbab. co'a di'i co'e le fu'e pe'a mrilu liste fu'o

[18:09] <ksion> Something like {tu'anai}, doing the opposite of {tu'a} (and funnily enough, the thing the definition of {tu'a} says that {tu'a} does) could suffice.

[18:09] <kribacr> {jai'a} {jai'e} {jai'i} {jai'o} {jai'u}. :P

[18:09] <@xalbo> Here's an idea, probably a bad one: {jai fi} is almost like {te}.

[18:10] <ksion> kribacr: u'i

[18:10] <@xalbo> Hmm, do you have an actual use case for a tu'a-opposite?

[18:11] <ksion> Not reallly, tbh. I guess something with our bread-and-butter gismu for abstraction discussion could be easily made, though. Yes, I'm talking about {bandu} :)

[18:11] *valsi* bandu

[18:11] <ksion> mi jai bandu tu'anai do faixire lonu do vi zvati

[18:12] <ksion> I defend you, so you can stay here.

[18:13] <kribacr> Seems like the sort of thing a tag would be useful for.

[18:13] <ksion> Yes, {tezu'e} would be good here.

[18:13] <ksion> Or {fi'o se djica}, "with intent".

[18:14] <kribacr> {ja'e}

[18:14] <ksion> That's if I succeed :)

[18:15] <ksion> valsi tu'a

[18:15] <valsi> tu'a = extracts a concrete sumti from an unspecified abstraction; equivalent to le nu/su'u [sumti] co'e.

[18:15] <@xalbo> I really don't understand that at all, I'm afraid.

[18:15] <ksion> Yeah, this should be fixed.

[18:16] <ksion> Oh wait.

[18:16] <@xalbo> {mi jai bandu tu'anai do faixire lonu do vi zvati} What is {faixire} supposed to be doing, and what is {tu'anai} supposed to be doing, and what fills where?

[18:17] <ksion> Yes, you're right. This is wrong. Actually, {tu'a} is what would be needed here since I need to wrap {do} into abstraction to fill into bandu.

[18:17] <ksion> bandu2*

[18:17] <vensa> I once proposed "extracts" should be replaced with "marks"

[18:17] <@xalbo> bandu2 can be an object or a state. So you could use {tu'a do}, or just {do}.

[18:18] <ksion> {tu'anai} doing the opposite of {tu'a} actually doesn't make sense as sumti tag. ua

[18:18] <@xalbo> "constructs an unspecified abstraction around a concrete sumti" is probably how I'd put if, if I were trying to be equally brief.

[18:18] <ksion> .i ua u'u o'anai .i lo se stidi be mi cu bebna .i ko tolmorji

[18:19] <ksion> xalbo: ie

[18:19] <vensa> yeah. if you could replace more than one word, that's probably better :)

[18:19] <vensa> doi ksion .iki'u ma bebna

[18:20] <ksion> bebna ki'u lonu lo cabna gerna cu curmi lo se djica be mi

[18:20] <vensa> .ua.ue ta'i ma

[18:21] <ksion> lo'u se jai se le'u .e zo tu'a .e lo cmavo be zo'oi BAI mu'a

[18:21] <vensa> .e'o ko jarco tu'a lo mupli jufra

[18:21] <ksion> ku'i mi nelci zo jai'a .e zo jai'e li'o

[18:21] <vensa> .u'i

[18:22] <ksion> mu'a lo'u mi jai'e nelci do fai lonu do cisma le'u fi'o smuni la'e zoi gy I like you smiling. gy

[18:23] <ksion> (With emphasis on 'you')

[18:23] <vensa> doi ksion .e'o lo mupli be sep'io le cabna gerna

[18:24] <vensa> xalbo: it looks to be missing the most elusive cmavo (those who dont really have a clear mnemonic) - e.g. {ga'e} & {ge'a}

[18:24] <selpa`i> .i mi di'a jundi

[18:25] <ksion> lo'u mi sejaise nelci do fai lonu cisma le'u .a lo'u mi nelci tu'a do lu'u pe lonu cisma le'u

[18:25] <ksion> valsi ga'er

[18:25] <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ga%27er

[18:25] <ksion> valsi ga'e

[18:25] <valsi> ga'e = upper-case letteral shift.

[18:25] <ksion> Those two don't exhuast the list of possiblities, btw.

[18:25] <ksion> (The examples, I mean)

[18:26] <vensa> I prefer the first

[18:26] <vensa> more exact IMO

[18:26] <ksion> I actually made the second one on the spot since I couldn't find appropriate BAI.

[18:26] <vensa> but how would you make a double-jai on both first AND second x's?

[18:26] <ksion> jaisejaise

[18:27] <@xalbo> So the list of mnemonics doesn't list mnemonics for cmavo that don't have a mnemonic: [awe] [disbelief] [surprise]

[18:27] <vensa> and youd need {faixire}?

[18:27] <ksion> Yes.

[18:27] <vensa> that's stupid. If there is an obvious mnemonic, I usually realize it myself

[18:27] <@xalbo> (although I think {ga'e} probably has {gapru} as at least partial motivation; someone should mention it)

[18:27] <ksion> I'm not sure if {faixipa} wouldn't refer to first {jai} then -- that is, the nelci2.

[18:27] <vensa> my mnemonic is "grande"

[18:29] <vensa> isnt {faixipa} always the same as {fai}?

[18:29] <vensa> like {faxipa} is {fa}....

[18:29] <@xalbo> I don't know of any better source for mnemonics. If you do, indicate.

[18:29] <ksion> Yes. But I'm not sure what {fai} refers to either, in that sentence.

[18:29] * vensa ponts at his brain

[18:29] <ksion> Is the order the "reading one" or the "wrapping one"?

[18:30] <vensa> dunno., xalbo?

[18:30] <@xalbo> I think if you want more than one {jai}, you're probably making things more complicated than you need to.

[18:30] <ksion> I recall L4B having an appropriate example but it's hardly normative.

[18:30] <ksion> Of course. But we like to complicate.

[18:30] <@xalbo> .i mi nelci lo nu do cisma

[18:30] <vensa> .iesai.u'i

[18:30] <vensa> xalbo: it's the principal of the matter

[18:30] <ksion> (And I like language's definition to be complete)

[18:31] <vensa> .ie

[18:34] <@xalbo> I would expect the outermost {jai} (textually the first) to be the one that sets {fai}. Nothing so far has indicated when happens to the old {fai} place, if one existed. Maybe {fai xi re}.

[18:35] <vensa> "when happens"?

[18:36] <vensa> so the complete sentece? {mi jai sejaise bandu do fai lonu mi catra lo cribe kei faixire lonu do vi zvati kei

[18:38] <@xalbo> "what happens"

[18:40] <kribacr> "What happen !"

[18:40] <vensa> btw: why is {ve'a}="small space" and {ve'i}="TINY space"? why not "medium" and "small"... this isn't mcdonalds! :P

[18:40] <Twey> WHAT HAPPEN !!

[18:40] <ksion> vensa: I'd say the opposite { mi jai se jai se bandu do fai(xipa) lonu do vi zvati kei faixire lonu catra lo cribe}

[18:40] <vensa> how do I SHOT WEB

[18:40] <selpa`i> vensa: u'isai

[18:40] <ksion> valsi ve'u

[18:40] <valsi> ve'u = location tense interval: a large region of space.

[18:41] <ksion> valsi ve'a

[18:41] <valsi> ve'a = location tense interval: a small/medium region of space.

[18:41] <kribacr> .i da punji le jbama

[18:41] <ksion> See, it's small/medium.

[18:41] <vensa> ksion: but xalbo just contradicted you. no?

[18:41] <ksion> vensa: yes.