yet and already: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 17:20, 4 November 2013

I believe that nobody knows how to express yet and already in Lojban. Sad.

xa'o (in its "happening before expectation" sense) works for already. za'o na works for not yet. --xorxes
- however xa'o is not an official part of the language. Already may be done with clira. Yet is a bit difficult without context, as someone commented below. -- mi'e .djorden.

- - Concerning your concern that "xa'o" isn't official enough; did the writer of the initial sentence mean Red Book Lojban, or Lojban as it is used in the community?

"Yet" has several meanings in English!

It seems you're digging out the same deficiencies of Lojban I too discovered some years back :( _yet_ as xorxes pointed out, one can manage to deal with this issue: {za'o} "still", {za'o na} "not yet": {*xa'o} is a fix off the baseline.

BTW, these little words are handled quite differently in the various languages, so one really has to get familiar with.

Another important point is the lack of subjunctive related stuff ("possible worlds") in Lojban/Loglan - a deficiency, for me, really hard to understand regarding the high linguistic skills of the creators of this language. -- .aulun.

"da'i" isn't sufficient for you?
Subjunctive mood is a defect of natural languages. There is no reason to have to conjugate verbs different (which doesn't even apply to lojban anyway) simply because you're talking about possibilities. The meaning carried by "If I was to go" is no different than "If I were to go". Lojban doesn't need these kinds of useless exceptions, pe'i. -- mi'e .djorden.

With regard and confined to examples like this, you're probably right, yet, generalized, it just were silly (excuse!). But I really don't have any intention to "gebetsmuehlenartig" retalk the whole stuff again and again with every newly enamoured Lojban aficionado ;-) Maybe others are inclined to. -- .aulun.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow that. Your usage of "were" above (zo'o?) sounds weird because "were" is also plural conjugation of the to be verb in eng, so you can't do "it were".... And it would (heh) help your case if you gave an example of where you think subjunctive is somehow neccesary -- I don't understand the desire not to support your position. -- mi'e Jordan DeLong djorden.

... if it were so, it was a grievous fault, and grievously hath Caesar answered it, here under leave of Brutus and the rest... ('t is true that English is becoming pretty flat as time goes by ;[jbocre: Please, search for "possible worlds" in the list! -- .aulun.

Umm this is a usage of were after "if" (i.e. subjunctive)... cunso cunso... or perhaps you intended that as an example of where subjunctive is neccesary: if so I must say, it most certainly is not :P. Lojban has sufficent tools to render the above sentence, without adding some kind of exceptional natlang-style verb conjugation... -- mi'e .djorden.

- For heaven's sake, Jordan, don't confuse mood (a morphological phenomenon, like a conjugation) with modality (an epistemic state, like counterfactuality.) English no longer has a subjunctive mood, but it still has 'subjunctive' modality. If it makes you so uncomfortable, then do what linguists do, and every time you see 'subjunctive', read 'counterfactual' or 'irrealis'. And don't even think of telling me Lojban doesn't need a way of distinguishing irrealis from realis (which is exactly why both da'i and mu'ei were invented.) -- nitcion

I am still not understanding. :-( mu'a ko fanva di'u la lojban fu ma

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-==  THE LOJBAN MOO IS DEAD ==
+I believe that nobody knows how to express ''yet'' and ''already'' in Lojban. Sad.
-As Robin Lee Powell if you want details, but the short version is
+* [[jbocre: xa'o|xa'o]] (in its "happening before expectation" sense) works for ''already''. ''za'o na'' works for ''not yet''. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
+** however xa'o is not an official part of the language.  Already may be done with clira.  Yet is a bit difficult without context, as someone commented below.  -- mi'e .djorden.
-that it was always super-slow and the popularity wasn't enough to
+*** Concerning your concern that "xa'o" isn't official enough; did the writer of the initial sentence mean Red Book Lojban, or Lojban as it is used in the community?
-justify the time to do a complete rewrite.
+"Yet" has several meanings in English!
-{maketoc}
+It seems you're digging out the same deficiencies of Lojban I too discovered some years back :( _yet_ as xorxes pointed out, one can manage to deal with this issue: {za'o} "still", {za'o na} "not yet": {*xa'o} is a fix off the baseline.
-==  Introduction ==
+BTW, these little words are handled quite differently in the various languages, so one really has to get familiar with.
-There is now a Lojban [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M MOO]; that is, a multi user virtual environment, kind of like the old text adventure games.  One of the things we're trying to use it for is [[jbocre: xartum|xartum]].  To that end, we need people to come visit and {ALINK(aname=>prayer)}pray{ALINK} for or {ALINK(aname=>build,pagename=>Lojban MOO Lojban Commands)}build{ALINK} the things they want!
+Another important point is the lack of subjunctive related stuff ("possible worlds") in Lojban/Loglan - a deficiency, for me, really hard to understand regarding the high linguistic skills of the creators of this language. -- ''.aulun.''
-===  How To Get Help ===
+* "da'i" isn't sufficient for you?
+* Subjunctive mood is a defect of natural languages.  There is no reason to have to conjugate verbs different (which doesn't even apply to lojban anyway) simply because you're talking about possibilities.  The meaning carried by "If I was to go" is no different than "If I were to go".  Lojban doesn't need these kinds of useless exceptions, pe'i. -- mi'e .djorden.
-In Lojban, you can get a list of available commands at [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Lojban Commands|Lojban MOO Lojban Commands]].
+With regard and confined to examples like this, you're probably right, yet, generalized, it just ''were'' silly (excuse!). But I really don't have any intention to "gebetsmuehlenartig" retalk the whole stuff again and again with every newly enamoured Lojban aficionado ;-) Maybe others are inclined to. -- ''.aulun.''
-If you're in English, you can use the in-MOO help system by typing "help".
+* I'm afraid I don't quite follow that.  Your usage of "were" above (zo'o?) sounds weird because "were" is also plural conjugation of the to be verb in eng, so you can't do "it were"....  And it ''would'' (heh) help your case if you gave an example of where you think subjunctive is somehow neccesary -- I don't understand the desire not to support your position. -- mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]
-In Lojban, you can use "sidju", but only one or two pages are translated.  You can use "mulsidju" to access the English help (although as of 19 July 2006, that is very slow).
+''... if it'' were ''so, it was a grievous fault, and grievously hath Caesar answered it, here under leave of Brutus and the rest...'' ('t is true that English is becoming pretty flat as time goes by ;[jbocre: Please, search for "possible worlds" in the list! ''-- .aulun.''
-Help can often be gotten on [[Lojban IRC|Lojban IRC]].
+* Umm this is a usage of were after "if" (i.e. subjunctive)... cunso cunso... or perhaps you intended that as an example of where subjunctive is neccesary:  if so I must say, it most certainly is not :P.  Lojban has sufficent tools to render the above sentence, without adding some kind of exceptional natlang-style verb conjugation... -- mi'e .djorden.
-If you're really stuck, you can [[jbocre: ailto:[email protected] ail the MOO admin]].
+** For heaven's sake, Jordan, don't confuse mood (a morphological phenomenon, like a conjugation) with modality (an epistemic state, like counterfactuality.) English no longer has a subjunctive mood, but it still has 'subjunctive' modality. If it makes you so uncomfortable, then do what linguists do, and every time you see 'subjunctive', read 'counterfactual' or 'irrealis'. And don't even think of telling me Lojban doesn't need a way of distinguishing irrealis from realis (which is exactly why both da'i and mu'ei were invented.) -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
-For general information on MOOs and MUDs and so on, see [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/ he MUD FAQ] or [http://www.moo.mud.org/moo-faq/ he MOO FAQ].  In particular, [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/mudfaq-p1.html#q5 ow Do I Connect To A MUD], [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/mudfaq-p1.html#q7 ow that I'm connected, what do I do?], [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/mudfaq-p1.html#q14 hat common commands are used on MUDs?], [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/mudfaq-p2.html#q1 hat is a client?] and [http://www.mudconnect.com/mudfaq/mudfaq-p2.html#q5 hat different clients are avialable?].
+----
-====  Language Related Commands ====
+I am ''still'' not understanding. :-( mu'a ko fanva di'u la lojban fu ma
-;To switch to Lojban from English:language Lojban
-;To switch to English from Lojban:bangu fa la gliban
-;To list the available languages (there are only two):languages
-;:ma bangu
-===  Connecting To The MOO ===
-====  Web-Based Connection ====
-You can use the SSH applet loaded by
-[http://mooix.lojban.org/ssh.html] to connect.
-Use the login "moo" if you don't have an account.  You will be logged in as a guest.  Commands are typed in the bottom-most part of the window.  Feel free to look around, although you are limited to using English as a guest.  Use the "register" command to make an account.  When you've done so and have completed the registration process, close the window, reload the Remote SSH Client page, and log in with your new information.
-====  Connecting Using a Graphical Client In Windows ====
-I'm assuming that this will be what most users will want to do.  Please note that there is no security with this method; your password is being sent over the 'net in plain text.  You shouldn't use an important password on the MOO anyways.
-First, find yourself a client.  If you ask [http://www.google.com/ oogle] for "windows mud client" you'll get lots of them, including [http://www.online-games.net/newmudclients.html ists] [http://www.mudconnect.com/resources/Mud_Resources:Mud_Clients.html f] [http://www.onlineroleplay.com/Text-Based_MUDs/MUD_Clients/Windows_95_And_Higher/ hem].  For reference, the one I picked (more or less at random, except that I wanted MCP support (don't worry about what that is unless you want to build lots of stuff] is [http://www.belfry.com/fuzzball/trebuchet/ rebuchet], and it's that that I'll be writing this with.  They should all be about the same, though.
-Download or run the installer.  The installer itself is pretty simple.  Start the program (should be in Start -> Programs -> Trebuchet Tk).  When Trebuchet starts, it'll ask if you want it to look for updates, and (if it finds an update) if you want to update it.  Say yes.  Restart if necessary.
-Go to File -> New World...  The world name can be whatever you want, although we've been calling it things like "samxarmuj" around [[Lojban IRC|Lojban IRC]].  Host name is "mooix.lojban.org".  The port is 7000.  It is not encrypted.  The type is "LP/Diku with GOAHEAD".  Unless you already have an account, leave the player name and password blank.  Leave everything else as it is.  Click "Add".  Go to File -> Connect World..., and select the world you just created.
-You will be logged in as a guest.  Commands are typed in the bottom-most part of the window.  Feel free to look around, although you are limited to using English as a guest.  Use the "register" command to make an account.  When you've done so and have completed the registration process, go to File -> Edit Worlds... and enter your userid and password information there.  Then go to File -> Disconnect World... followed by File -> Connect World... (or right-click on the box just above the typing area with the world's name in it and select Reconnect World...).  You should now be logged in as the user you created.
-You will probably find the experience slightly less confusing if you turn command echoing on.  In TrebuchetTk this is done by going to Option -> Preferences, then the Input tab, then selecting "Echo commands to display".
-====  Connecting With SSH In Windows ====
-Get an SSH client; I suggest [http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html uTTY] (get putty.exe from that link).  The host is mooix.lojban.org, and the port is 22 (the default for SSH).  The connection type must be SSH.  Log in as "moo".  Look around a bit.  Use the "register" command to create an account.  Exit the program and restart it.  Use the account name and password you just created.
-====  Connecting With SSH On The Command Line ====
-First, get an SSH client.  With most UNIX systems, and Mac OS X, this comes pre-installed.  You'll need to use a command line (aka terminal) window to access it.  The command to get an account is "ssh [email protected]".  Once you have an account, use "ssh [[jbocre: account|account]]@mooix.lojban.org".  Otherwise, follow the "Connecting With SSH In Windows" instructions above.
-==  Rules And Etiquette ==
-(very much incomplete)
-* Objects with no Lojban translation annoy the Gods, and therefore run the risk of being exiled to BAI.  (We reserve the right to translate them instead, though.)
-==  History ==
-This is the history of the world from the point of view of samxarmuj itself.
-===  Mythical History ===
-No-one knows what was before the Gods came and re-made the world. But legend has it that an ancient civilization uploaded themselves into computers and sleep solipsistically beneath the sea. They created a logical language that hacks into root access in the fabric of reality... the kind of language which you could speak to a genie without fear of being misinterpreted...
-===  The Beginning ===
-There is a fire, but other than that there is no light and no breeze. A hill of sand rises out of a body of water which stretches into a pure, starless, and unreflective darkness to an unknown size. It might be outdoors or indoors.
-This text floats in the air: {fi'i vitke be la co'i ve'e terzmiku .i .e'o ko rivbi lo nu cpedu lo rinka be lo dubna'e .i ki'e .i ko zanfri lo vitno .i mi'e le kurji} "Welcome to the Singularity. Kindly refrain from making requests that cause paradox. Thank you and have a nice eternity. - The Management."
-===  The Gods ===
-The Gods live beneath the sea, dreaming dreams beyond mortal ken.  They sometimes answer prayers, but they are both fickle and distracted by their own concerns.
-===  Mutable Reality ===
-The Gods permit the modification of reality according to their own
-whims.  Their power over reality is vast, permitting them to create
-regions that seem to be physically impossible.  They allow residents
-to partake of their power for creation of whatever the resident
-might desire, but they are fickle, and some times refuse a request
-for no mortally discernable reason.
-Residents can pray to the gods to fulfil their desires, or can use
-complex Lojban utterances to magically create things on their own.
-{ANAME()}prayer{ANAME}
-====  Prayer ====
-In English, use 'pray "..."' to request help.  In Lojban, see
-[[jbocre: Lojban MOO Lojban Commands|Lojban MOO Lojban Commands]] for the exact command(s) to use.
-The Gods are mostly helpful when asked questions or for general
-help, but are somewhat more fickle when asked to create things.  It
-seems that this takes time that the Gods would largely prefer to be
-spending on their own ineffable contemplations.
-The Gods never respond to any requests for changes or creation that
-were uttered in anything but valid Lojban.  They will sometimes
-respond to requests for general help in other languages.
-====  Creation ====
-See [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Lojban Commands|Lojban MOO Lojban Commands]] for builder commands.  The Gods
-allow a great deal of freedom to those willing to learn the correct
-Lojban incantations.
-=====  Weak Points =====
-Some places are more stable than others; that is, their creators or
-the Gods have arranged so that some places cannot easily be
-modified, thus providing some stability for the residents.  Within
-these areas, the creation of new paths in and out of the area and
-similar activites must be done by prayer.
-To-do.
-==  To-Do Lists/Bug Reporting ==
-Put stuff here that you'd like to see or that you know needs work.
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO General Bugs|Lojban MOO General Bugs]]
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Translation-Related Bugs|Lojban MOO Translation-Related Bugs]] -- anything having to do with translation functionality
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Dubious Translations|Lojban MOO Dubious Translations]] -- Already made translations of locations/objects/etc seeming dubious
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Untranslated Messages|Lojban MOO Untranslated Messages]] -- if you're in Lojban and you see something in English, it goes here
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Feature Requests|Lojban MOO Feature Requests]]
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Help Files Translations|Lojban MOO Help Files Translations]] -- if there's a particular help file you'd like to see translated
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Prayers|Lojban MOO Prayers]] -- this is a dumping ground for prayers users pray in the MOO.   Non-gods should feel free to help out, too
-==  Related Pages ==
-* [[jbocre: xartum|xartum]]
-* [[jbocre: Helping With Translating The Lojban MOO|Helping With Translating The Lojban MOO]]
-* [[jbocre: Lojban MOO Multilingual Parser Theoretical Capabilities|Lojban MOO Multilingual Parser Theoretical Capabilities]]
-* [[jbocre: MMORPG|MMORPG]]

yet and already: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 17:20, 4 November 2013

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