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Number 17 - January 1993 Copyright 1993, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031 USA (703)385-0273 Permission granted to copy, without charge to recipient, when for purpose of promotion of Loglan/Lojban. Lojban International Conversation New Lojban Writing Project Starts DETAILS IN NEWS SECTION ju'i lobypli (JL) is the quarterly journal of The Logical Language Group, Inc., known in these pages as la lojbangirz. la lojbangirz. is a non-profit organization formed for the purpose of completing and spreading the logical human language "Lojban - A Realization of Loglan" (commonly called "Lojban"), and informing the community about logical languages in general. la lojbangirz. is a non-profit organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the U.S. Internal Revenue Code. Your donations (not contributions to your voluntary balance) are tax-deductible on U.S. and most state income taxes. Donors are notified at the end of each year of their total deductible donations. For purposes of terminology, "Lojban" refers to a specific version of a logical human language, the generic language and associated research project having been called "Loglan" since its invention by Dr. James Cooke Brown in 1954. Statements referring to "Loglan/Lojban" refer to both the generic language and to Lojban as a specific instance of that language. The Lojban version of Loglan was created as an alternative because Dr. Brown and his organization claims copyright on everything in his version, including each individual word of the vocabulary. The Lojban vocabulary and grammar and all language definition materials, by contrast, are public domain. Anyone may freely use Lojban for any purpose without permission or royalty. la lojbangirz. believes that such free usage is a necessary condition for an engineered language like Loglan/Lojban to become a true human language, and to succeed in the various goals that have been proposed for its use. Press run for this issue of ju'i lobypli: 150. We now have about 750 people receiving our publications, and 250 more awaiting textbook publication. Your Mailing Label 2 Your mailing label reports your current mailing status, and your current voluntary balance including this issue. Please notify us of changes in your activity/interest level. Balances reflect contri- butions received thru 31 December 1992. Mailing codes (and approximate balance needs) are: Activity/Interest Level: Highest Package Received (Price Each) Other codes: B - Observer 0 - Introductory Materials ($5) JL JL Subscription ($28-$35/yr) C - Active Supporter 1 - Word Lists and Language Description ($15) (followed by expiration issue #) D - Lojban Student 2 - Language Design Information ($10) * indicates subscription prepaid E - Lojban Practitioner 3 - Draft Teaching Materials ($30) LK LK Subscription ($5- $6/yr) R Review Copy (no charge) UP Automatic Updates (>$20 balance) Please keep us informed of changes in your mailing address, and US subscribers are asked to provide ZIP+4 codes whenever you know them. 3 Contents of This Issue Important: Your mailing label indicates the last issue of your subscription. If that issue is JL17, we need to hear from you, preferably with money for another year's subscription (US$28 North America, US$35 elsewhere). For overseas subscribers, this is the last grace issue before our subscription policy takes effect for you - we need to hear from you soon if you want to keep receiving JL; we will be far more likely to support a subscription for an interested overseas Lojbanist than a US Lojbanist, but we cannot do so unless you request to keep receiving JL. This issue features a discussion of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, including a fairly detailed explication of how it is understood and interpreted by linguists by Bruce Nevin. Also featured is a long section on the new effort to start creating an original Lojban literature. We invite all Lojbanists to participate in defining this project, which involves a group writing against a shared common setting which is predesigned. Several writings in both Lojban and English appear in this issue to kick off the project. Not all of the writings are translated into English. Also included in this issue is a longer story translated by Ivan Derzhanski from a Bulgarian original. Extensive footnotes in commentary are provided, discussing some of the stylistic issues in translating, but also showing how you can get an understandable and interesting story even if some of the details of your language use are not understood as you intended. Technical discussions include debates on Lojban's suitability as an intermediate language for machine translation, and a discussion of types of ambiguity found in language, and how Lojban avoids them. As will usually be the case, this issue contains much material derived from the Lojban List computer mailing list on the Internet. Nearly all such material has been edited, revised, and corrected from the original. Note the new network address below for the Planned Languages Server if you wish to obtain electronic copies of our materials. Table of Contents Brief Glossary of Lojban Terms ---3 News Status of JL, Subscriptions ---3 Finances, Athelstan's Status, Bob and Nora's Adoption ---4 LogFest 92 - Activities, Business Meeting, Negotiations with TLI, Forthcoming Books, Baseline Status/Language Design, Next Year ---5 Other News - DC Class, Bradford Group, First International Conversation, Phone Game, News from TLI ---7 Language Development Status - gismu, lujvo, Grammar, Morphology, rafsi ---8 Structural Ambiguity in English and Lojban ---9 Lojban Fluency? ---11 Lesson from Another Constructed Language ---13 A Lojban Pangram ---13 An Alternative Orthography for Lojban ---14 Criticisms of Lojban as a Tool for Machine Translation ---15 Discussions on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (several pieces, note especially:) ---21 Summary of Linguistic Attitudes on Sapir-Whorf, by Bruce Nevin---22 Additional Sapir-Whorf Bibliography ---29 4 The Lojban Kalevala Project ---30 Veijo's Summary ---31 Condensed Papers - Collected Significant Writings on the Project ---32 Text and comments elucidating further description of Scenario #2 (Lojban and English texts) ---46 le lojbo se ciska - Ivan's Translation le lisri be le serti, Nora's Operettina le ci cribe ---52 Translations and Commentary for ckafybarja writings and le lojbo se ciska ---57 Veijo's First Text (57), Nick's Text (58), Veijo's Second Text (60), Iain's First Text (61), Mark Shoulson's Text (62), Iain's Second Text (commentary only - 64), le lisri be le serti (65) Computer Net Information Via Usenet/UUCP/Internet, you can send messages and text files (including things for JL publication) to la lojbangirz./Bob at: [email protected] (This supersedes the prior "snark" address.) You can also join the Lojban List mailing list (currently around 70 subscribers). Send a single line message (automatically processed) containing only: "subscribe lojban yourfirstname yourlastname" to: listserv@cuvmb. cc.columbia.edu If you have problems needing human intervention, send to: lojban- [email protected] Send traffic for the mailing list to: [email protected] Please keep us informed if your network mailing address changes. Compuserve subscribers can also participate. Precede any of the above addresses with INTERNET: and use your normal Compuserve mail facility. If you want to participate on Lojban List, you should be prepared to read your mail at least every couple of days; otherwise your mailbox fills up and you are dropped from the mailing-list. FIDOnet subscribers can also participate, although the connection is not especially robust. Write to us for details if you don't know how to access the Internet network. A good portion of our materials are available on-line from the Planned Languages Server (PLS). See JL16, or send the messages "help" and "send lojban readme" to the server address: [email protected] This is a new address since JL16 was published. 5 The following explicitly iden- lujvo - compound words built tifies people who are referred to from rafsi; by initials in JL. Note that le'avla - words borrowed from 'Athelstan' is that person's real other languages; name, used in his public life, and brivla - Lojban predicate words, is not a pseudonym. consisting of gismu, lujvo. and le'avla; 'pc' - Dr. John Parks-Clifford, tanru - Lojban metaphors, the Professor of Logic and Philosophy most productive and creative at the University of Missouri - expression form of the language; St. Louis and Vice-President of la sumti - the arguments of a lojbangirz.; he is usually logical predicate; addressed as 'pc' by the commu- selbri - Lojban predicates which nity. indicate a relation among one or 'Bob', 'lojbab' - Bob more sumti. A selbri is most LeChevalier - President of la loj- often a brivla or tanru; formerly bangirz., and editor of ju'i called "kunbri" in error in some lobypli and le lojbo karni. of our publications; 'Nora' - Nora LeChevalier - bridi - Lojban predications, the Secretary/Treasurer of la lojban- basic grammatical structure of the girz., Bob's wife, author of language; a bridi expresses a LogFlash. complete relationship: the selbri 'JCB', 'Dr. Brown' - Dr. James expresses the relation and the Cooke Brown, inventor of the sumti express the various things language, and founder of the being related; Loglan project. selma'o - grammatical categories 'The Institute', 'TLI' - The of Lojban words; the basis of the Loglan Institute, Inc., JCB's unambiguous formal grammar of the organization for spreading his language. Traditionally and version of Loglan, which we call erroneously called "lexeme" in the 'Institute Loglan'. Loglan community. These 'Loglan' - This refers to the categories typically have a name generic language or language derived from one word in that project, of which 'Lojban' is the grammatical category; the name is most successful version, and all capitals, except that an 'Institute Loglan' another. apostrophe is replaced by a small 'Loglan/Lojban' is used in letter 'h'. discussions about Lojban where we wish to make it particularly clear News that the statement applies to the Status of JL generic language as well. 'PLS' - The Planned Languages Well, I (Lojbab) seem to be late Server, a no-charge computer- again in getting ju'i lobypli out network-accessed distribution the door, though not quite as late center for materials on Lojban as last issue. I do have a bit of (and other artificial languages). an excuse. On very short notice, See pg. 2 for email address. I had to go to Russia to become a father (more on this later). Now Brief Glossary of Lojban Terms back, and somewhat settled down, I've gone back to work, and have Following are definitions of taken steps to make it more likely frequently used Lojban terms. that JL will be able to come out More complete explanations are in on time in the future. This issue the Overview of Lojban. is hopefully out the door around cmavo - Lojban structure words the first of January. I will be gismu - Lojban root words; preparing JL18 starting on 5 currently 1342; March, with an intended publi- rafsi - short combining-forms cation date of 1 April. Issue #18 for the gismu; is already more than half done, 6 using material that would not fit maybe those who try to write such in this issue. texts. JL17 more Lojban text and commentary on the text than Subscriptions previous issues; from now on, the portion of each issue devoted to If you are receiving this, then Lojban text will continue to grow. probably you either have returned Starting with this issue, I have a subscription form, you have a adopted a new editorial policy large balance and were already whereby other Lojbanists who have receiving JL, or you have ordered demonstrated competence in the a package of Lojban materials that language will be reviewing and includes a sample issue, or you editing Lojban text that is are an overseas subscriber submitted. No longer will I receiving your last grace issue. (Lojbab) be the bottleneck in If you have paid for a getting Lojban text in print. subscription, this is the first Instead I will putting my time issue under the subscription into getting the Lojban books policy, and the issue will have published, and keeping JL coming cost you either US$7 (US/Canada) out consistently on time. or US$8.75 (other countries). A result of this policy is that Those receiving JL via Major in published Lojban text may have Australia are doing so by varying degrees of quality. All arrangement with him at a price text will have been verified by that he is setting. the Lojban parser to assure that If you did not return a it is grammatical. However, we subscription form and pay for a all know that not all grammatical subscription, then this issue is text is easily understood (anyone being charged to your voluntary who has read legal documents or balance at a higher price than for tax forms can testify to this). paid subscribers: US$9 for US/- Instead of me checking all texts Canada and US$10 for other for a consistent level of quality, countries. If you were a JL published text will have been subscriber and had enough balance approved by two Lojbanists who to pay for this issue at this have demonstrated competence in higher price, then you are the written language. This will receiving it even though you presumably mean that at least they haven't returned the form. understood the text. These edi- If you did return a form, but tors, labelled by Nick Nicholas as did not have enough money in your "editors de jour", are described balance to pay for a subscription, in more detail in the ckafybarja you are receiving this issue papers below. anyway, in reward for having Because I won't be checking and responded. We hope that you will preparing the text, there will no eventually contribute to your longer be detailed translations of balance to offset the price. If the sort that I have prepared for not, you will probably be switched Lojban text in JLs prior to now, to receiving le lojbo karni as of unless the authors or one of the issue #18. editors prepares them. We will be Having received only $170 in trying to include a list of any donations earmarked for the special vocabulary words, and will support of those who cannot afford include any translations that are subscriptions, we have allocated provided. some of that money to supporting a On the other hand, the increased few nonpaying volunteers who have volume of Lojban text, some of it been particularly active. Pri- original writings, will hopefully ority was given to people who have convince more of you to join the shown evidence of having tried to ranks of those who have learned learn Lojban, and to non-US enough Lojban to try to read the Lojbanists. This money has been texts without translations. And allocated in the form of prepaid 7 2-issue subscriptions. We did not sufficient to make our non-profit have enough money to support sub- status permanent. scriptions for all who requested We are now paying some $30 per assistance. month to maintain Master Card/Visa As of the publication date, we processing capability, though we have 122 prepaid subscribers, and are looking for a cheaper way to another 13 are receiving this offer this service. Our Master issue as a grace issue. Since Card/Visa fee to you is being some people did not send money raised to 10% pending our finding with subscription forms, the an alternative. If finances get number of subscribers will drop to any worse and we have not found a around 100 for JL18 (unless we cheaper alternative, credit card hear from those listed as expiring ordering services will be dropped. this issue), and seems likely to With the successful ending of stabilize at around that level the legal battle with The Loglan until books are published. This Institute, we are getting close to is not enough to qualify for paying off our legal bills, and reduced postal rates, so our costs expect to do so sometime in 1993. are higher than they have been for Since Lojbab and Jeff Prothero recent issues. However, US have been donating funds to cover recipients are getting their issue those bills, the money has not by first class mail and hence come out of other la Lojbangirz. probably far more quickly than funds; thus paying the bill off previous bulk mail issues. won't really improve our financial situation (though we will have a Finances good credit reference, at least). Legal costs have totalled over We lost money in 1992, as in $12,000. previous years, a net loss for the year of around $1300. End-of-year Athelstan's Status cost savings, including delaying JL17 and LK17 until 1993, reduced There has been a good deal of this from an earlier deficit of support and sympathy expressed $3000. We will need to have a about Athelstan's accident. Early fund-raising drive in 1993 in in December, he completed a course order to have money to publish the of recuperative therapy, and has new Lojban books (as well as to moved out from his parents' house, support our continuing is working part-time, and is operations). starting to rebuild a life of his As of the end of December, own. This will take some income for the year was $8646.54 considerable time, and Athelstan and expenses were $9999.01. This will have to live a fairly leaves about $2500 in the bank, of structured life for a while to which somewhat over $1000 will go have his best chances for long- for JL17 and LK17. ($5500 of term recovery. He also continues income was donated by Jeff to need major dental work, since Prothero and Lojbab, and went for he has lost nearly all of his legal fees. Thus, actual project teeth. income and expenses were only a Athelstan attended the LogFest fraction of previous years', in August of 1992, for a few around $3100 and $4500, hours, and participated in a respectively.) couple activities, and is doing Our IRS 501(c)(3) provisional some studying of the language on status, authorizing us as a tax- his own. However, it is clear free non-profit organization (and that he will not be up to his pre- making your donations tax- accident skill with the language deductible), is up for review as for quite a while, and we do not of the end of 1992. We expect expect him to resume his that your support has been leadership role in the community at any time soon. Projects that 8 he was working on, including the slowly - they do spontaneously use Lojban mini-lesson, continue to be "coi" and "co'o" to Lojban- delayed indefinitely. oriented guests, though). Being forced to use a language in this Bob and Nora's Adoption way has been a real education in language acquisition, and I have The biggest news out of Bob and much more recognition of what Nora's house has little to do with things help in self-teaching a Lojban except to help explain why language. so little is getting done. This will no doubt improve the On extremely short notice (an teaching quality of our materials hour after they told me it might when they come out. I know that take 6 months), the adoption it has certainly changed my ideas agency called in late August to what needs to go into the tell me that they had found a pair textbook. The proto-textbook that of children for us to adopt from we've been working on won't be Russia, and that they wanted us to affected, and indeed nothing I've travel immediately. All of written for this draft of the September was taken up with rushed textbook will need significant travel preparations for a trip rewrite, but new sections to be that seemed continually to be written in the future will scheduled for "next week some incorporate the lessons in lan- time". These preparations were guage learning that I've acquired complicated by previously-sched- the hard way. uled surgery for Nora (who came Lojban got a bit of a boost from through quite fine and is fully my trip: Ivan Derzhanski did a recovered, but the surgery meant high quality translation of the that she could not go to Russia). Lojban brochure into Russian on Finally I left for Russia on short notice (copies available on October 2, returning on October 18 request); while in Russia, I was with 2 beautiful and healthy able to arrange to have it children, brother and sister. published in a journal in Russia, Angela is 6 1/2 and Avgust is 5. probably next autumn; the title is They are energetic, intelligent, something like the "Transactions and there have been almost no of the Society of Eastern and problems in their adaptation. Oriental Languages". This will be However, from late August until the first academic publication the kids started school in about the Loglan project other November, we got almost no Lojban than book reviews, which don't re- work done, hence the delayed ally count (Scientific American is appearance of ju'i lobypli. considered insufficiently academic I've resumed work, but at a to have it count in Loglan's somewhat lower pace. It took most favor, and having an academic of a month then to get caught up publication record is important in on mail and paperwork that had seeking grants). Special thanks lagged during that time; hopefully are given to my Russian linguist the last of the backlogged orders consultant, Mikhael Maron, of the are going out in the mail with Institute for Russian Language in this issue. I expect a lag of Moscow. some 3-4 months in the publishing On Friday, October 16, I of Lojban books, but John Cowan, presented a 'seminar' on Lojban Nick Nicholas and others have made (basically a short talk with tremendous efforts to keep the question-answering) to about 20 ball rolling on book preparation. people at Moscow State University These days, we mostly speak Dept. of Philology and Russian at home, despite the fact Linguistics. These included three that neither Nora nor I speak it professors, Mikhail Maron (who nearly as well as we speak Lojban. arranged the talk with department The kids are learning English very chairman Professor Polikarpov), slowly (and Lojban even more and several graduate students who 9 are studying theoretical helped present Nora's operettina linguistics and also taking a "le ci cribe" (text in le lojbo 'practical English' class (Their ciska below), for lojbo verba of teacher saw this as a good all ages. As with the previous opportunity to practice, but the effort of this kind, Cinderelwood students seemed genuinely (1989), our low budget, low interested). A couple of students practice, production group set a and the professors as well, new standard for lojbo draci, but especially department chairman aren't about to hit Broadway in Polikarpov, seemed particularly the near future. The Lojbanic interested, and I made arrange- lyrics went well with the ments to continue discussions by collections of children's songs to electronic mail. There were many which the playlet was set, and regrets that I could not stay some hasty but serious practice longer in Moscow, arrange further efforts before the presentation discussions and visit meant that the actors sang their laboratories, but the purpose of lines without stumbling. the trip was primarily for the Athelstan the critic gave it a kids, and they most certainly had thumbs up before departing; we'll to come first in my planning. be looking forward to his next I also had discussions with the visit. Academician leading Russia's Another Saturday activity was efforts in machine translation. the discussion of the Lojban There was some interest, but his Kalevala project (see separate group right now must put financial article). All in all, we tried to concerns first - they have to find keep Saturday a little bit light, a way to commercialize (i.e. knowing that Sunday's business attract Western money), and there meeting was likely to be long and is little likelihood that we are emotionally draining (as have all going to be able to help in that. of our annual business meetings). Thus, discussions stayed in LogFest 92 English, and ranged over a wide variety of topics related to the The second (and main) LogFest 92 Lojban effort. took place the weekend of 14-17 Business meeting - The business August 1992, and included the meeting started at 9:30AM Sunday annual meeting of la lojbangirz. morning. We had several key 16 people attended. As usual, people missing, as pc had business Friday night was arrival night, matters in Arizona to take care with socializing and people coming of, John Hodges' car broke down at in the door until well after the last minute, and Art Wieners midnight. Lojban-related activi- was called back to work from ties started on Saturday and vacation for a crisis that made continued through Monday. him unavailable all weekend. On Saturday, the Lojban However, all of these people had community welcomed the return of made their positions clear on the Athelstan, who was able to attend issues at hand, and the meeting for a few hours with the proceeded surprising well. The assistance of his parents. It following summarizes the results will be a while yet before of the meeting: Athelstan can resume the major Organizational - Nick Nicholas contributions to the Lojban effort and Colin Fine were elected as the that he was making before the first non-US voting members of accident, but having him show up LLG. We consider all of the at LogFest was a real morale Lojban community to be part of booster for us, and probably also LLG, but we have to have a clearly for him. defined voting membership for le- Athelstan was able to stay and gal purposes to manage serve as 'critic' while the summer organizational matters. Also '92 DC Lojban class and John Cowan added were David Young, Sylvia 10 Rutiser, and David Twery. Jeff committed to Lojban, which is a Taylor, who hasn't actively much superior version of the participated for the last couple language, and we have a larger of years, was dropped as a voting group of people actually doing member. To make clear the nature something with the language. The of voting membership, a resolution membership showed extreme distrust was passed explicitly stating on towards TLI, voting to insist on the record that voting members two key preconditions to further should consider themselves as negotiations: representing the community at- a) Both organizations must sign large, and not just themselves, in a binding agreement preventing matters that are decided. legal action resulting from Several bylaw changes were made, further negotiations; the members all relating to procedures want to be sure that TLI's offers involved in holding members' and to negotiate are bona fide and not Board of Directors' meetings when an attempt to set us up for a law- we are so geographically dispersed suit. and several members cannot be b) TLI must drop its 'trade physically present for the meet- secret' protection on all aspects ing, especially the overseas of its design for its version of members; we do not want inability the language. LLG being committed to attend LogFest to prevent to the freedom of the Loglan people from participating in the community to freely use the LLG decision-making, especially language howsoever they choose, such major technical contributors the members felt that a 'secret' as Nick and Colin. These bylaw grammar is anathema to the concept changes are an evolving process, of a large community of people as we adapt to LLG's continuing using a constructed language, growth and international spread; especially one intended for every year, we seem to need a few scientific research. It is felt more changes to meet new problems that no real progress can be made that have arisen. Copies of the on possible merger of the two current LLG Bylaws are available languages while TLI continued to at cost to any member of the keep theirs secret where neither community. TLI nor LLG supporters could see Bob and Nora LeChevalier, John the language details and evaluate Cowan, and pc were re-elected to them on their merits. the LLG Board of Directors, and in The voting membership seems open a brief meeting of the Board after to negotiations provided that TLI the members' meeting, Bob was demonstrated bona fide intent by reelected President of LLG, pc as meeting the preconditions. Vice President, and Nora as However, there is little sentiment Secretary/Treasurer. for significant change in Lojban Negotiations with TLI - The as part of a merger of languages; major political issue at the we collectively believe that the meeting was the determination of Lojban design is far superior to LLG policy towards The Loglan anything the TLI designers might Institute and JCB, now that the have come up with in the past legal battle over trademark status couple of years since the last of the name 'Loglan' is over. good information about their There have been some initial version of the language. efforts towards a negotiation I proposed a strategy for between the two groups, with both remerger of the efforts starting sides expressing an interest in with the adoption of alternative reuniting the effort behind a ways of writing the two language single version of the language. versions so that they resemble The efforts haven't gone far, each other in appearance, thus since TLI wants LLG to disband and making cosmetic appearance not an merge into TLI behind its version issue (as it appears to be for of Loglan. la lojbangirz. is JCB) when the two languages are 11 essentially the same in the move fast if they wish to have any structures that determine how the significant chance of influencing language looks on paper. John the direction of a future combined Cowan has proposed an alternate effort. orthography for Loglan/Lojban, (Initial signs are not allowing it to look in print very optimistic for further reduction much like TLI Loglan. (see in hostilities. TLI formed a separate article). public mailing list similar to Following such an initial step, Lojban List on the computer each organization would study in networks, but then apparently went depth the two language versions to considerable lengths to prevent looking for similarities and Lojbab from participating, differences. We would try to eliminating the public nature of convince TLI to adopt our changes the list and virtually shutting it into their language, and they down - apparently for fear that presumably would try to convince some of their trade secrets will us to adopt their design where we get to me.) differ. Vocabulary lists are Forthcoming Books - There was likely to be the major lengthy and emotional debate on unresolvable issue under this the continuing delays in getting approach. When the review is the prototype and baseline books completed, the decision of which out. Many Lojbanists are waiting vocabulary list and which version for the books, convinced either of any unresolved differences to that they cannot learn the lan- go with would be voted on by the guage without the books, or that supporters of each version. If the language will change after one version wins the vote in both they've learned it, if they learn organizations, then the language the language before it is set down versions have remerged. in the books. Our very Otherwise, the two organizations conservative baseline approach go their separate ways, but with does not satisfy these people; languages presumably much closer only the books will do. together. The voting membership thus It is the collective belief of forced John Cowan and me to more the LLG membership that if no strongly commit to getting the merger takes place, that TLI will books done as quickly as possible, fade away eventually. LLG members and to avoid changes to the expressed an unwillingness to language definition except insofar accept changes in Lojban that in as glitches come to light during any way detract from the current book writing. We expected to have design - any evolution of Lojban the proto-dictionary done before would have to be a positive one, the end of the year, with the and we have no reason to believe proto-textbook and introductory that there are any differences be- book following soon after. (This tween the two languages wherein was before the kids came along, changing Lojban to match TLI Log- forcing a few more months delay). lan would enhance the language. John Cowan's papers will be assem- Faced with lengthy negotiations bled into a reference grammar to even if TLI meets our necessary conclude the initial design preconditions, the voting documents. We are trying to have membership reiterated its intent all 4 books done within a year, that we publish the books defining though John's book will be the the Lojban design that are slowest to be completed. currently in preparation, noting John believes that after these that as each book is published it books are completed, there will will further cement us in a po- likely be no further changes to sition wherein we cannot accept the language, and we will go changes to the language in conces- immediately into the long-term sion to TLI. Thus the ball is in design-ending baseline. I TLI's court and they will have to (Lojbab) continue to intend to 12 produce a real textbook and that we missed in the place dictionary (of which the first two structure simply because we made a books are indeed 'prototypes') promise not to change. There are that will define the baseline, but known weaknesses in other aspects John and others doubt that this of the Lojban design, but no major will happen in a timely manner, ones, and those known are not and that the proto-books will be considered open for change because the ones used in the baseline. I of our baseline commitment to have agreed that the bottom line avoid change where possible. on the book publication will be The two gismu proposed in JL16, how fast we can get them written, vukro and slovo, were added to the coupled with the finances of gismu baseline, along with four publishing, and not my goals to new gismu for metric prefixes produce more 'perfect' non-proto reflecting their addition to the versions of the books. This, and international metric standard. a renewed commitment to stop As part of the rafsi review in fiddling with the language design, progress, there emerged strong mollified some very frustrated and feeling that the gismu for impatient Lojban supporters. "daytime" as distinct from "day" The conclusion is that the (= 24 hours) should have good community very strongly wants the rafsi, which was not possible language to be done, and usable, without severe tradeoffs given the and does not care whether the word (dinri) that resulted when language is any closer to perfect the word was generated last year than it currently is. I stand on using the word-making algorithm. record as recognizing that As was done in the case of "less sentiment of the community as than", which was changed last year expressed by the membership, that from "ckamu" to "mleca" because of has elected me to lead the effort. the need for a good rafsi, the Baseline Status/Language Design membership approved that this word - The membership voted to update be changed, disregarding the the grammar baseline as of the scoring algorithm if necessary. proto-dictionary publication, to This was considered acceptable include changes approved by the only because the word is a new one technical committee that has been added just last year and is reviewing those changes (which are neither in common use yet nor even all considered relatively minor by reflected in our published lists. the members). The rafsi and cmavo To minimize relearning difficulty, lists will also be baselined when John Cowan and I opted to change the book is published, only a single letter, and the incorporating the current reviews, gismu for 'daytime' is now and the intent is to baseline the "donri", with rafsi "dor" and morphology algorithm published in "do'i". The membership approved JL16 after updating it for wording this change. errors found when we coded it up - That was it for the members John Cowan wants to have the meeting. We also had two algorithm fully coded and verified committee meetings, one to before making a baseline correlate the results of the rafsi commitment, and we are still review, and the other to allocate working on this. With all of the $142 received last winter in these baselines, the only donations specifically to support significant language feature that active, non-paying Lojbanists who will not be baselined are the cannot afford to pay for gismu place structures, although materials. The money was it is believed that the simple allocated toward 2-issue sub- fact of putting those into the scriptions for several people, book will effectively baseline with the hope that our finances them as well (the difference to me have improved after 2 issues and is that I don't want to feel more money is available to help obligated to defend a stupidity such people out at that point. 13 John Cowan has put together a DC Class - During the summer we new parser based on the current held a weekly class in Lojban here set of proposed grammar changes, in Fairfax. Five students which are expected to be approved, participated, although two of and it will hopefully be tested them, Sylvia Rutiser and Tommy thoroughly in coming weeks by some Whitlock, were primarily key people who write a lot of Loj- freshening up their skills. Of ban text. the other three, two completed the Sunday night and Monday were class and have continued actively spent in more Lojbanic activities, participating in Lojban weekly a little conversation, and going conversations. over a writing effort by David DC Weekly Group - After the Twery. By then everyone was conclusion of the summer class, exhausted, as another busy and the DC conversation group resumed successful Logfest came to an end. weekly meetings, continuing even Next Year - We're not sure what through Nora's recovery from LogFest will be like in 1993, surgery and Lojbab's trip to given the patter of little feet Russia. Typically, activities around here, and haven't set a split 50/50 between conversation date for LogFest 93. We hope that each session and discussions of there'll be more in-language texts written by the group members activities, and at least one of or on Lojban List. When less the books should be out by then. experienced Lojbanists are Given the addition to our family, present, we assign one-on-one we're hoping others coming to "mentors" who aid them by coaching LogFest will bring their families them in what people are saying, too. and helping them say what they There's a possibility for a would like in the language. Thus weekend gathering in 1993 which everyone gets to participate. will be an all-Lojban affair, with More recently, since Lojbab's no English permitted. This is an return from Russia, some (rather ambitious undertaking - the light-hearted) efforts have been language is ready for it though. made to introduce our two kids to The major factor will be the Lojban; this is necessitated by effect of our kids on our time. their domination of everyone's At the moment, Nora and my Lojban attention until bedtime. We skills have deteriorated in favor suspended meetings for the of Russian. December holiday season, partly in But the critical factor in such order to get the kids better a weekend is vocabulary, settled so that we can focus more vocabulary, vocabulary. The on the language during weekly summer Lojban class here covered sessions, and partly to try to ar- most of the grammar in seven 2- range a more convenient schedule hour sessions, but no one had for participants. After the first nearly enough vocabulary command of the year, weekly sessions will to converse. Hopefully with this resume, probably on Monday or weekend gathering as a goal, those Tuesday evenings. Lojbanists in of the community who want to see the DC area may contact Lojbab at the language brought to life will 703-385-0273 if you would like to get to work on their word lists visit or start regular and LogFlash, and try to be here participation in this group - you if we can put this weekend to- need not have significant skill in gether. If we don't manage it in the language to gain from par- 1993, we will surely try in 1994, ticipation, but you should in that when Nick Nicholas has threatened case be planning some self-study to visit from Australia. at other times during the week. Bradford Group - Colin Fine has Other News started a study group in Bradford, England, the first regularly meet- ing Lojban group outside of the 14 US. I don't have many details on spoken language on two continents. numbers of participants, but the There is no doubt in my mind that group has produced a significant the sralo accent on the other end amount of Lojban text. of the line was speaking quite First International Conversation good Lojban, and at a fluency that - I am pleased to report a major would stand him well in our weekly milestone in the Lojban project - sessions in Washington DC. (Nick a most surprising one indeed at has promised to visit us in 1994, the time it happened. when he completes his degree work One Monday evening in September, in college.) I received a telephone call. I After the shock slowly ebbed had been studying Russian about 10 from my mind, I got enough hours straight at the time I got presence to suggest that this this call. And what do I hear on would have worked better if the the line but a collection of traji call had been the following night, cizra (superlatively strange) when the weekly DC group met. So beeps and clicks and this unusual I was told that I should prepare bunch of words coming at me. They people for just such a call. weren't Russian (and this itself Here is Nick's recollection of was baffling, because I'd already the actual conversation, with gotten 2 calls today from people commentary: with heavy Russian accents who were offering me information and Robert LeChevalier? Yah. advice related to my forthcoming [Lojbab: A good answer in all trip, in response to a computer three languages.] .i mi'e network posting). nitcion. nikolas. i mi fonxa It finally dawned on me that tavla ra'i la australias. mu'i someone was talking Lojban at me. lenu rinsa do pu lenu do cliva Except for intermittent sentences la rusko. in an otherwise English (The "cliva" is wrong, conversation, no one has ever obviously, and "ra'i" isn't very spoken conversational Lojban to me smart, but hey, I'd been walking on the telephone except Nora, and a lot :) she was sitting next to me. Thereupon Goodman LeChevalier Alas, I was attempting to said "... a couple of words of understand, and my Lojban totally that sound vaguely familiar; failed me, partly from shock, and please repeat." I did; this partly from the fact that as I time I was la nik. nikolas, ra'i attempted to form Lojban la sralo... sentences, Russian words kept Ladies and Gentlemen, Robert creeping into them in my mind, and has learnt his cmavo well: his this hodgepodge of jborusko ".ua" was as good as any (Lojbanic-Russian) just wouldn't exclamation James Brown (let be communicative; but I couldn't alone James Cooke Brown) could tune out the Russian. Finally I come up with :) Duckcall-like, asked the other end of the line to in fact :) repeat, and I made out the words I started chuckling nik. nikolas. and sralo, and I ("hehehehe"), then quickly cor- suddenly understood all the clicks rected myself: ".u'i.u'i.u'i" and beeps. The first A good thing too that Bob's international telephone call in brain wouldn't click into Lojban Lojban, and I was talking to Nick mode, because, as I said to him Nicholas in Australia. (er... four times, the fourth in I'm afraid we never got more English :), mi na djuno da poi than a couple of sentences mi bilga lenu cusku ke'a (once exchanged - my brain just would more, in writing that would be a not click into Lojban mode. But I "ledu'u mi bilga lenu cusku can testify that Lojban now has dakau", but whatever). people who have demonstrated Stunned silence followed, then conversational competence with the a bit of small talk, then I 15 talked to Nora, and it went a a position of linguistic little bit like this: expertise, but minus the actual coi coi noras .i ?xu do expertise... :) kanro [an IDIOT question in Oh yeah, that's the other thing Lojban, but cut me slack I said, when he mentioned the already, I'm new at speaking the Russian on the mind: "Ya ne damn language :) ] gavaryu pa-ruskii" :) .i mi kanro .i ?xu DO kanro .i pe'i go'i The following night, Colin Fine [I really aspirated them joined in the act, calling about apostrophes; I can't remember if an hour before Nick made his Bob or Nora did.] .i mi jinvi second call (which was lenu do xagmau mi lenu cusku [I considerably more communicative think it was "cusku"; I remember than the first one. Thus in one at being surprised, not so much night we had three continents at the lujvo, as at the fact speaking Lojban. Again, that it was followed immediately international beeps and whistle by a pronoun, without a pre- gummed up the conversation, but position. Two years of written Colin was quite understandable (if Lojban, and now I notice the a bit briefer than Nick, who absence of "than"?!] .i seemed to be feeling rich to want .u'i ?xu go'i .i mi ruble go'i to talk so long). I have to say [I'm trying to be a smartass in that Nick has a jump on Colin in Lojban, and it's not quite fluency of speech, but nothing a working. The word I was looking little practice won't make up for, for was "ru'e".] and Colin does have some people Mind you, the bad acoustics and local to him to practice with. my lack of familiarity with [On aspiration of ': in some spoken Lojban meant that I had words I heavily aspirate it, like to search a bit to determine co'o, and other vowel pairs with what was being said (by Bob, at matching vowels. In others I least). From what I remember aspirate a bit less. Nick though, I got through all right. enunciates his vowels far more Lojbab, I believe, farewelled clearly than most of us speaking me with a "co'o" (ah yes, he the language.] does aspirate them heavily), and I didn't feel so bad at not I responded with a "co'osai". I parsing Nick's sentences after he didn't mean by that that I was confessed the mistakes he made. I glad to be rid of you, honest! am particularly bad at correcting :) others' errors in spoken Lojban, We'll have to have something to especially at conversational talk about for me to be speed. This is one major failing convinced that we can converse I have at teaching the language. intelligibly. I can see why the If you screw up, I don't differences between Washington understand you, because I am and net Lojban exist though: parsing in my head, translating to good phrasing just doesn't come Lojbanized English and then to you spontaneously, much less understanding. The wrong cmavo, good bracketing. I'm not going or even one no one has used in to let this worry me about the speech to me before (which Nick future of the language yet, mind did several of), brings the parser you... in my head to a screeching halt, The kind of halting Lojban I but Nick kept going. (I have the was getting from Fairfax same trouble with spoken Russian: reminded me of the Esperanto I hear a word I don't recognize beginners I occasionally tutor. right off, and I completely lose The kind of Lojban I was getting the next 2 sentences trying to out of myself reminded me of the figure it out.) aplomb with which I used to face Colin Fine offered that any Esperanto when finding myself in Lojbanist who wanted to try a call 16 was welcome to call him. His Preliminary discussions have led telephone number is currently to a "truce" in our disputes, with (+044) 0274-503168. Nick Nicholas a possibility that there will be noted that those with access to future interest in negotiating an the Internet can effectively active reconciliation and remerger practice conversational Lojban by of our efforts. Unfortunately, at computer, using a software system this time both sides remain far called "IRC" (Internet Relay apart on how such a reconciliation Chat). For those with such ac- might be accomplished. cess, it might be useful practice; Details on la lojbangirz. policy the speed of conversational typing with regard to negotiations were is far less than the speed of discussed at LogFest and can be talking, and not as prone to found in the article on that errors in hearing. Contact us by meeting. e-mail at the address on page 2 if We intend to continue to fairly you are interested in IRC report on what we hear from TLI, 'conversation and have access to and hope that our non-hostile that service on the networks. demeanor will cause TLI's people to more actively seek Phone Game - The "phone game", a reunification within the Loglan computer network Lojban activity community. described last issue, made it through three rounds, but then Language Development Status stalled on the fourth round - one person who signed up dropped out gismu after the game started, and sev- eral of the more experienced Six gismu were added at LogFest, people participating in previous as described in the article on rounds had other activities to that meeting. Other than these occupy them in summer. By the end changes, there have been no new of August, we decided to suspend gismu proposals, and indeed, the the game, since a replacement draft set of revised place struc- activity, the Lojban coffeehouse tures has generated little project described below, had criticism. Thus, we consider the captured everyone's imaginations. gismu list stable enough for book We may start new rounds at some publication. future time when we get some new people interested in lujvo participating. Nick Nicholas has spent a lot of The Loglan Institute - After our time in the last 6 months doing a victory in the appeals court in thorough review of some 2700 lujvo LLG's trademark dispute with The that have been used or proposed Loglan Institute (see last issue), for use in Lojban text. He has there remained the possibility analyzed these by origin, that TLI would continue the legal indicated their quality (and occa- battle. We are happy to report sionally proposed better that this seems not to be the replacements), and analyzed them case, and the trademark issue is to determine probable place dead. People may use the word structures based on analysis and "Loglan" freely in talking about actual usage. As a result, the all aspects of our 37 year old proto-dictionary will likely have project, including Lojban, without many more entries than we had needing permission from TLI. originally planned, since I intend Indeed, it seems that both to incorporate as much of Nick's organizations will now be able to work as possible. turn away from the legal system as a method of resolving our dis- Grammar agreements over the course of the Loglan Project. 17 The grammar is of course Has anyone conducted an baselined and frozen until we make experiment to verify that word- updates and republish it in the boundaries are identifiable, Lojban books. Because we want the even if you don't know what the books to reflect the grammar after words mean? If I were to hear a the books are done, we do our recording of rapid spoken writing based on that next revi- Lojban, could I, equipped only sion of the grammar. Indeed, most with the word segmentation of the change proposal come out of rules, identify all the word the detailed analysis that John boundaries? Cowan does in writing his reference grammar essays. Yes you could. Ideally a There are now 27 minor changes computer could. If you cannot, it planned for that revision, all but is due to human limitations in 5 being extensions to the lan- analysis, not to ambiguity in the guage. Because of the delays in algorithm. These limitations publishing books and the fact that might prove to be real, since many active Lojbanists are there are some obvious ways to incorporating new features in concoct utterances that will lead their Lojban writings, JL18 will a listener down a primrose path: include a revised E-BNF and a com- plete summary of all the changes mi viska le prenu is a valid since the last baseline. John sentence /miVISkalePREnu/ Cowan believes that only a couple miviskaleprenus is a name more changes of even this minor /miVISkalePREnus/ scale are likely prior to baselining for book publication; but you can't distinguish them his estimates are reasonable, till the end. since he is the one who has No we haven't tested the proposed almost all of the ones in algorithm in any rigorous or this set of changes. Of the experimental sense. There have changes listed, only one was been informal analyses, and of considered by experienced course we have people conversing Lojbanists to be important. who have no problems. However, even that change was The short form of the algorithm easily taught to students last is: summer within one class session. 1. Pauses are word breaks. Morphology 2. Identify names by going Last issue, we printed the draft backwards from 'consonant + pause' Lojban formal morphology to preceding "la" or "doi" or algorithm. Nora has been working "lai" or word break/start of text. to implement and text the algorithm in software, and has 3. Among remaining text, start found several errors in the from the left looking for algorithm as printed in the issue. consonant clusters which mean that The problems are not with Lojban, you are in a brivla (predicate but rather are errors in the way word). Any number of leading CV various steps are worded. The and CVV syllables fall off a dictionary/reference book will permissible initial cluster, each have a version of the algorithm forming separate cmavo. In a that passes Nora's software analy- brivla, find the stressed sis. Meanwhile, we print a short syllable, then, since that is discussion that gives a simpler, penultimate, take one syllable plain-English rendition of the more, ending in a vowel. algorithm: rafsi And Rosta asks: 18 The analysis of Lojban rafsi, Structural Ambiguity in English mentioned in the discussion of and Lojban LogFest above, was not completed by Dan Maxwell and John Cowan until just before publication of this issue, primarily due to Bob's [Dan is an Esperantist, linguist, travels. We intend to publish a and programmed on the DLT machine lengthy article and the revised translation project. John Cowan list with JL18, so that all people is an LLG leader, and responds to can switch to the new baseline at Dan with the indented notes.] that time. It is obviously true that words which never change their form are easier to handle than ones which do change their form, but at the level of the sentence it is often the case that the forms of words are useful indicators of the relationships between the words. Here are some examples of structural ambiguity in English, some of which could be solved by more "signposts" on the words. Here are various Lojban translations, showing how Lojban resolves the ambiguities of the English examples. Lojban words never change in form for grammatical purposes, although many root words have shortened forms for use in making compounds (the underlying roots can be uniquely reconstructed from the compound). 1. I saw the linguist with the binoculars ('with the binoculars' can be taken with either 'saw' or 'linguist'.). This problem comes up quite often, although context or the meanings of the words often serve to disambiguate for human beings but not for computers. 1.1) mi viska le banskeju'o sepi'o le reldanvistci I see the language-science- knower using the two-far- see-tool. 1.2) mi viska le banskeju'o pe sepi'o le reldanvistci I see the language-science- knower which-is using the two-far-see-tool. In 1.1, the prepositional phrase (tagged sumti, in 19 Lojban jargon) is attached 2.1) le sonci cu to'ercitno to the entire predication. nanmu ja ninmu In 1.2, the relative- the soldiers are-anti-young phrase particle "pe" glues men or women the prepositional phrase to the preceding noun 2.2) le sonci cu ke to'ercitno phrase. Of course, other nanmu ke'e ja ninmu interpretations are the soldiers (are-anti- possible, each with its young men) or are-women Lojban expansion: 2.3) le sonci cu to'ercitno bo 1.3) mi viska le banskeju'o joi nanmu ja ninmu le reldanvistci the soldiers are-anti- I see the language-science- young-men or are-women knower joined-with the two- far-see-tool. Normally, logical connection binds more tightly than This denotes seeing the two simple modification in objects jointly. Lojban, so 2.1 means "old (men or women)". To 1.4) mi viska le banskeju'o poi change this rule, we may kansa le reldanvistci use the explicit I see the language-science- parenthesis words "ke" and knower who accompanies the "ke'e" as in 2.2, or the two-far-see-tool. high-precedence infix marker "bo" as in 2.3. Here the linguist is "with" Lojban often allows both the binoculars in the forethought and sense of carrying them or afterthought forms of being near them, not using expression; parentheses them. are more general but require more preplanning 2. Old men and women ('old' can and may be more difficult be taken with either 'men' or 'men to use in colloquial and women'). This is perhaps the speech. second most frequent type of structural ambiguity in languages 3. Army demands change (Is like English. Signposts on the 'demands' a noun or a verb?). words can solve some classes of This problem comes up in all this problem, i.e if the two nouns languages in which words do not are singular and the adjective have different forms for different when taken with both is plural. parts of speech or a given marker like English 's' is ambiguous. Since Lojban is a predicate language, I will recast I would star this example as this example as a dubious English: it is predication, which really "headlinese" and involves changing the depends on omitting the "and" to an "or", thus: article. But even after "The soldiers are old men revision to "The army or women." Using "and" demands change", it is would limit the soldiers still ambiguous. The to such individuals as are Lojban versions are: both old men and women; since no individual is 3.1) le jenmi cu cpedu lo both a man and a woman, nunbinxo that translation would be the army requests an event- incorrect. of-change 3.2) le jenmi se cpedu cu binxo 20 the army-type-of requested- inflected relative pronouns might thing changes be able to avoid this type, at least if the two nouns are not in "binxo" signifies a the same class. transformative change, as when ice changes to water. 6.1) le pixra be le tadni poi mi A mere change in the nelci ke'a amount or intensity of a the picture of (the student property, on the other such-that I like him) hand, is "cenba". "cpedu" is "A requests/demands 6.2) le pixra be le tadni be'o B" and "se cpedu" is "B is poi mi nelci ke'a requested/demanded by A", the (picture of the so "se cpedu" is needed in student) such-that I like 3.2 to refer to that which it is requested rather than the requester. Note that Lojban relative clauses are of the Hebrew 4. Flying planes can be dangerous type, with a marker at the (Does 'flying' modify 'planes', or beginning of the clause is 'planes' the object of the ("poi") and a pronoun gerund 'flying'?). within the clause referring back to the 4.1) lo vofli vinji ka'e ckape relativized argument some flyer-type-of ("ke'a"). airplanes can-be perilous 6.1 and 6.2 differ by the presence of the right- 4.2) lenu vofli be lo vinji ka'e bracket word "be'o". An ckape omitted right-bracket word the event-of flying some acts as if it appears as airplanes can-be perilous far to the right as possible; thus 6.1 is Lojban's careful distinction equivalent to: between concrete and ab- stract arguments pays off 6.3) le pixra be le tadni poi mi here. nelci ke'a be'o 5. The hunting of the tigers (Are In both 6.2 and 6.3, the the tigers the hunters or the "be"..."be'o" construct hunted?). indicates the subordinated argument of the 5.1) lenu le tirxu cu kalte subordinated predication the event-of the tiger(s) "is a picture of". In hunting 6.1/6.3, the argument is "the student such-that I 5.2) lenu le tirxu cu se kalte like him" whereas in 6.2, the event-of the tiger(s) the argument is merely being hunted "the student" and the subordinated argument is These may be collapsed to then cut off, leaving compounds: "such-that I like it" to modify the whole (top- 5.3) le nuntirxykalte level) argument. 5.4) le nuntirxyselkalte Sentence 1 would not be ambiguous in Esperanto, since there happen 6. The picture of the student to be two different prepositions that I liked (Does the relative ('kun' and 'per') in this case. clause go with 'picture' or But this general type of ambiguity 'student?') Languages with is found in Esperanto as well. 21 As I show above, the 'per' and the form of the root never interpretation is possible even if changes. So it would be more "linguist" is taken to be the accurate to say that Esperanto is attachment point, giving something an agglutinative language like like "I see the linguist who is Turkish or Japanese. The doing something with (using) the essential difference between binoculars". Esperanto and Glosa [ed.: another Sentence 2 would indeed be artificial language] is that in ambiguous in Esperanto, at least Esperanto many of the signposts in the most usual translation. are written as part of the same Sentence 3 would definitely not be word, whereas in Glosa they are ambiguous, because different parts always written as a separate word. of speech are marked by different But in both languages the endings. Sentence 4 would also signposts have exactly one form. not be ambiguous, because participles have different endings Lojban function words may be than nominalized verbs. In 5, it written free or compounded depends on how careful the speaker as a mere matter of is being. There is a tendency to orthography. Lojban con- use the same preposition in both tent words (predicates) cases, but there is also a may be compounded and commonly used alternative for the taken apart again subject reading. The translation unambiguously, but the of 6 would be ambiguous in compounds are not Esperanto as well. identified with their underlying word sequences, As shown above, none of these although there is are ambiguous in Lojban, naturally a close semantic and all of the Lojban relationship. forms given above are nat- ural unstrained forms. Parsing algorithms started out with a simple L-R sequential Inflection-based grammar developed approach, because this is the way in historical times; it is language works, at its basic probably an example of the way the level. human mind seeks complexity. Any I guess it's usually true that language, including Esperanto, programming languages operate that developed prior to the emer- sequentially, but they also have gence of Information Technology, braces and so on to tell us what is 'historical' in this sense. goes with what. The formal grammar and agreement present in such pre-computer-era Lojban has braces of various languages has proved to be almost sorts, but achieves nat- impossible to process. uralness (unlike most Esperanto, especially our modified programming languages) by version of it in DLT, was much a systematic mechanism for easier to parse than English, due eliding right terminators largely to the ways of avoiding where no ambiguity (as ambiguity in sentences like the rigorously tested by a ones mentioned above, among oth- parsing algorithm) can ers, even though English is result. presumably less inflection-based than some consider Esperanto to Function words in natural be. Actually, Esperanto is not languages are not generally as inflection-based in the sense that specific as the devices used by Latin, Russian, and German are. programmers. "that" (if you know There are certain morphemes which it's not the pronoun) tells us are written as one word with the that a new clause is beginning, root, but these morphemes do not but doesn't tell you what this vary according to noun class, etc. clause goes with or where it ends. 22 I think this kind of problem can A friendly comment: this project be found to varying degrees in any [Lojban] ought also to be of constructed language invented so interest to linguists concerned far. with universals. Except Lojban, where there is It ought, oughtn't it? never any doubt. It would be of interest if human This is nevertheless not a serious beings could learn to speak and problem for speakers, because they understand it fluently; it would have context and meaning to help be of even greater interest if disambiguate (most of the time). children could acquire it from But if we are constructing their parents. languages which can be used by computers as well as humans, then If it is true that natural we have to make our signposts more (and planned but natural- explicit or we have to wait until like, such as Esperanto) computational linguists like me, human languages are the AI people who work on human learnable only because language, and our programmer col- they are built upon a leagues find ways to make hardwired structure (Uni- computers understand meaning and versal Grammar), then context as well as humans do. Lojban should not be These are the real stumbling learnable in the natural blocks for computers much more way, as it violates much than complex declensions and if not most of what is conjugations. currently thought of as being universal. I'm Agreed. Lojban provides an afraid that we won't get unambiguous syntax to away with running an clear away questions of experiment, though, as its syntax early, thus side effects may include a allowing the effort to be few language-impaired spent on semantics, the kids, if my expectations true heart of language. are correct. [In response to further comments I dunno - consider A. N. Prior, a that English and Esperanto can guy who has written a lot on tense also make disambiguations parallel logic: he uses symbolic logic in to the Lojban versions, it was the Polish notation, which is sort explained that the key point is of like Japanese syntax backwards. that not only are the Lojban With a little practice, you can versions unambiguous, but that start thinking in it in a sense - these are the simple and natural you become "fluent" in it, as he expressions to be used and that is. (You have to, to read his furthermore there are NO versions works.) of these sentences in Lojban that No natural language has a syntax DO express the ambiguities of the like an SOV language backwards (go original sentences.] ahead, somebody, pounce; note that it wouldn't be like the rare VOS Lojban Fluency? type at all). Yet you can learn to process it. Ditto for master Ken Miner (a linguist at the programers. All that's lacking is University of Kansas) made the a spoken form... following comment about Lojban on the computer news-group Certainly you can learn to "sci.lang". Lojbanist Ivan think in it (and you can Derzhanski, also a linguist, become fluent in it), but responded [indented]: the kind of learning it takes is quite different, 23 isn't it, from a child's That's a very interesting datum. acquisition of his first I wonder if anyone or any group language. I'm not became fluent in the earlier convinced that you could Loglan? When you consider that have learned symbolic this project has been around since logic in your mother's 1955, and that some of its primary lap, using the same goals sort of depend on this very miraculous language thing... acquisition mechanism that I'd like to hear more about this. you used to learn English Does LeChevalier himself say he ("for although we've been does not really qualify as fluent, talking since we were or is that your judgment, and if three, / how anyone can is the latter, roughly what criteria a big mystery"). Neither for fluency were you applying? am I convinced that you couldn't; I'm just [I responded with the following:] wondering. And it just might be the case Bruce is correct that no one that you must use the is fluent in Lojban, and that I first few years of your am the most fluent in the life to acquire some language, but not really natural or natural-like 'fluent' in the sense that language, and if you linguists use the term. don't, you'll never be The state of the art improves able to learn any later all of the time, of on. I'm not sure that a course. I can state child whose only native rather categorically that language is symbolic logic there was no real fluency won't grow up as a live in any previous version of computer, fluent in that Loglan. Indeed, Lojban is system, but unable to deal the first version to with natural language. really support the needs Again, I'm not sure of the of conversation. JCB opposite either. Project reports having had "Mowgli", anyone? conversation sessions back in the late 70s, but I've Maybe some people have learned to talked to participants in speak Lojban fluently. That alone those 'conversations', and would be interesting. It certain- I think heard some tapes ly ought to be worth fooling once or was told about around with. them. Basically a lot of dead silence with sounds So far all of those who can of paper shuffling, generate and understand because no one other than Lojban text have learnt it JCB had enough vocabulary as a foreign language, solid to even make a moreover, as an sentence without looking incarnation of predicate up one or more words in a logic, to which all have word list. There was had a prior theoretic 'conversation' only that exposure. That's not how there was no resort to we learnt our respective English. The bulk of the first languages. sessions was groping, in Loglan, to find the right [Bruce Gilson then noted that words that someone could Lojban is not actually spoken understand. fluently by anyone, even by That was 15 years ago. Lojbab. Ken commented:] In 1987, after only 6 months, my wife and I reached the same point with the then- 24 budding Lojban version. sation participants to the On our honeymoon, without weekly group for fall word lists, and each of us 1992. knowing around 300 words Basically the reason why there (but often not is no fluent Lojban speech overlapping), we were able yet is two-fold: to 'converse' for about an 1) for almost no one is there hour with no word lists, an opportunity to use the using repetition, language often enough to pointing, and paraphrase gain fluency; only here in to get across the words we DC have we gotten people didn't know. It seemed to even try to sustain very much like the process conversation, much less do whereby one might learn a so regularly. My wife and language my total I probably could run our immersion. But we tried household in Lojban and it only once. quickly become fluent, but In 1989, 5 of us sustained I have some specific conversation, with word reasons for avoiding this lists, for about 4 hours. - I don't want our usage, By that time I knew the already rather dominating vocabulary well enough in the community learning that I rarely used the the language, to become a word list. A couple of de facto idiom; instead I months later, we had want several people able several such sustained to speak the language and conversations, while write in it, thus devel- driving from Washington to oping a more natural Boston, but with Nora and idiom, even if it takes I both not using word longer. There is also the lists. Early in 1991, we emotional and mental drain started having weekly to be considered - I'm al- conversation sessions in ready putting most of my Lojban, typically 1-2 time into the language, hours, in which relatively and I need a break once in little use of word lists a while, at least until occurred by the 4 main others have gotten up to participants. However, we the level where I am at. usually had at least one 2) because there has been less skilled person relatively little advanced present, and not using usage, Lojban remains a word lists did not mean pidgin. We have about that people didn't have to 2000 solid vocabulary stop typically once or words, which is enough to twice in each sentence to converse and communicate, think of the word they but not to converse wanted, and repeat things fluently. We have the once or twice for those means to make any who missed something. additional words for con- These conversations lasted cepts that we need, but until one of the 4 was making up words is not a injured in an auto fluent language activity. accident last Feb., I am quite skilled at leaving us with only 3 coming up with communica- regulars, which we have tive and productive usages found makes for too sparse on the fly, but not at a conversation. We have fluent speeds. Hence my just finished a new Lojban working vocabulary is 2000 class, which will add words, though I probably another couple of conver- have used perhaps 3000- 25 4000 different words in my speakers because there are Lojban speaking career. no fluent speakers to These words are going to learn from. Those of us have to be recorded in bootstrapping the language dictionaries, and in are the examples for written usages for the everyone else, but who do mass of Lojbanists (most we learn from. In writing of whom are not local to we can learn from each me) to learn about. In other, which is why Lojban addition, I suspect that writing has progressed far vocabulary level needs to beyond speech in skill reach more like 5000- level, but until we have a 10000, with most of the cluster of people in one words on spontaneous re- location who are willing call, before fluent to make the commitment to conversation will be use Lojban at a much sustainable. Given the higher level than 1 hour a great amount of technical week, we won't achieve and specialized vocabulary fluent speech. that pervades most We are in the process of conversation that I publishing the first books experience (and which is about Lojban, and when necessary to keep a those are available, I conversation going for suspect that there will be hours - you can only say people willing to make so much about the weather that commitment. So this today zo'o), I could not situation may change comfortably talk for hours within the next year or without having such a two. Our experience 5 vocabulary on tap. years ago on our honeymoon English speakers has convinced me that vocabularies are estimated there is no reason that as being much larger than Lojban itself is this, of course, but insufficient or incapable Lojban gains some of being spoken fluently. considerable efficiency (By the way, to avoid the from its predicate inevitable comparison, I structure wherein words should note that Esperanto serve as nouns, verbs, and also did not catch on adjectives until there was a book to interchangeably. learn from. It grew much The obvious question is "why faster because its is it taking so long?" vocabulary is so strongly The answer is that it derivative of the European hasn't been a high enough word stock, whereas priority for very many Loglan/Lojban by intent people. Secondary reasons must not be so derivative. for this include the Even so, I have heard that geographical dispersion of the watershed moment when Lojbanists (our best Esperanto really writers are Nick Nicholas 'succeeded' did not come in Australia, Ivan until something like 1904, Derzhanski in Scotland, when people at their Iain Alexander and Colin international conference Fine in England, Veijo discovered to both Vilva in Finland, John pleasure and surprise that Cowan in New York, and the language was finally myself in Washington DC). well enough known to such But another key point is that a degree that the meeting there are no fluent could be conducted in 26 spontaneous and fairly Exactly, and even worse, given fluent Esperanto. That that I myself have been was 17 years after monolingual English Zamenhof's book, and I've speaker (whereas Zamenhof heard that Esperanto was and his associates were in formation for at least predominantly polyglots to 8 years before the book start with), I recognize was published. While that relying on my usage Lojban has recaptured all to set the patterns is of the research benefits particularly risky for of the earlier Loglan cultural neutrality. developments, we basically In written usage, we seem to started the language be meeting your goals. definition process from With the major people scratch in 1987. I don't writing in the language think we will be waiting including a Greek- 17 years for spontaneous Australian, a Finn, and a fluent speech.) Bulgarian polyglot with professional linguistics [Ken responded, leading to the training, our stylistics following exchange:] is developing somewhat independent of myself. ... I ... probably will have Further, by recognizing further reaction, but for the the importance of cultural moment: while comparisons with neutrality, I am very Esperanto (which I have spoken forward about indicating fluently since my youth, but not which of my usages are natively) are indeed inevitable, a tentative, and in better comparison would be with screening myself for VolapЃk, Esperanto's predecessor, cultural bias. "malglico" which while naturalistic was less (damnably-English-like) so than Esperanto, having I think was one of the first more case endings than Finn-ish compounds to gain yet allowing Germanic-type widespread use, and I'm compounding. proud of having coined and This whole area of how new pushed it. languages "get going" is fascinating. It relates to modern Lesson from Another Constructed Israeli Hebrew as well. Language Re what you said about not wanting a small group to fix usage too [The following, translated from soon: that seems to be what Esperanto by Don Harlow from the happened to Esperanto, maybe on a referenced article, indicates the larger scale. I don't know dangers of uncontrolled change whether you're an Esperantist but and/or change in a constructed I and others have often been language controlled by "people who impressed by the extent to which were linguistically very undisci- Esperanto became "a real European plined". Novial was a major language" when it had the artificial language invented by potential, and the theoretical one of the most noted linguists of underpinnings, to develop along his time, and for a while completely different lines. I see attracted a significant following that as the problem with Lojban. (it basically supplanted Ido, the You need speakers, early in the major splinter from Esperanto), game, with diverse linguistic but it apparently died from backgrounds. Otherwise it's going uncontrolled change.] to develop along the lines of "standard average European." The following comes from Carlevaro, Tazio: "Mondlingvaj akademioj", in Haupenthal, 27 Reinhard (ed.): "Li kaj ni", tional. "." may only be placed at Antwerp-La Laguna: Stafeto, 1985, a required pause, though.) pp. 389-390: - It must be a grammatical utterance. The well-known Danish linguist - No fair using zoi (non-Lojban Jespersen, who had already quotes) or lo'u/le'u collaborated in the creation of (ungrammatical text quotes) to Ido, in 1928 proposed a new neo- throw in nonsense to get tough Latinoid language project Novial letters. (Nov International Auxiliari - No experimental or unknown Lingue). In 1929 a handful of cmavo, of course. ex-Idists joined it, along with the otherwise well known Ido magazine Mondo. In 1934 Jespersen decided to radically reform the language to bring it nearer to Occidental. But it became obvious that the Novialists were people who were linguistically very undisciplined, and for this reason, and perhaps also because Jespersen didn't have the time to get very deeply occupied in his project, the Lingual Jurie del Novalistes was founded (1937) and proposed new improvements and changes. This did not, however, reduce the linguistic chaos in the movement itself, because this committee's decisions were not mandatory but only indicative. Novial, together with its language committee, disappeared during the second world war. A Lojban Pangram [Mark Shoulson issued a challenge on Lojban list for a Lojban 'pangram', a sentence as short as possible that contains all of the letters of the Lojban alphabet. Examples from English include "The quick brown fox slyly jumped over the lazy dog." and "Pack my box with five dozen liquor jugs." Mark wrote:] Here comes the quest for the Lojban pangram. Guidelines should be: - No cmene or le'avla. Cop-out. - All Lojban symbols except "," (which only happens in cmene and le'avla) must appear (not counting such optionals as ";" or ":", but counting ".", even though it's op- 28 Desiderata: (They're) antarctic gloves of two - It should be a bridi (a Malay-relative living things. complete Lojban sentence), not just a bare sumti or a string of To add the missing symbols: exclamations. "." uses up one or two vowels - - It should not have sumti in either [selma'o] I or UI undefined places, if possible "'" uses up two vowels. We can (e.g. nothing in the x6 place of combine these in UI, or in a cmavo "prenu" or whatnot, even though or lujvo. that parses). "y" requires a lujvo (if we are - It should have some sort of not using letterals or hes- comprehensible meaning, though it itation). may be nonsense (i.e. the meaning needn't be reasonable, but it 1) Minimising use of lujvo: should be capable of being Two strategies suggest understood in some fashion). themselves for this goal. Either - It should be as short as use a (single) consonant-rich possible. lujvo of the form "CVCyCCV" and - It shouldn't use letterals use UI for the other two. just to get letters in cheaply. Inserting (a single instance of In fact, avoid letterals if you the form) ".V'V CVCyCCV" covers can, except maybe to get "y". 4C, 4V at a cost of 11 characters - lujvo should be used altogether, or use a (single) sparingly, and if used, should CVCyCV'V-form lujvo and a V cmavo: make sense somehow. You can get ".V CVCyCV'V" covers 3C, 4V at a "y" using hesitation or letterals, cost of 10 characters altogether. but don't turn down an otherwise The latter approach is shorter, good sentence because of a lujvo. but since the total number of dif- ferent consonants is 2 mod 3, The desiderata are roughly in would require two cmavo, giving a order of importance. I'd imagine total length of 34, against 33 for it's a little easier to find a the first strategy. Therefore the pangram in Lojban than in English, minimal solution with only one although finding a good one (where (two-element) lujvo is of form "good" is defined something like ".V'V CVCyCCV CV gismu gismu gismu above) isn't easy in almost any gismu" (with the order of these language. elements completely free) Have fun with it! .e'u zadyfra pa baxso ckini [Colin Fine responded with the jmive gluta (33 characters) following admirably-complete Let's react more to a Malay- analysis:] related living thing's glove! Assuming Mark's rules, but 2) Allowing free use of lujvo avoiding letterals or hesitation: CVC rafsi have the highest There are 17 consonants and only consonant/vowel ratio possible in 5 vowels. All brivla are more the language, so the answer is consonant-rich than all cmavo. So clearly going to involve one or use as many brivla as possible. more long lujvo with lots of Ignoring, ".'y", the best ratio CVC's. An obvious strategy is you can get in a sentence with (CVC)n-CV'V = 2n+1 consonants, n+2 gismu only is 3 consonants/2 vowels, Thus with ".i" at the vowels; 17 consonants requires 6 beginning (we can't use any other words, for a total length of 30. V word unless we have some sumti), Using 2 CV cmavo instead of one and one juncture requiring "y", we gismu improves this to 29. get: dzipo gluta fe re baxso ckini .i CVCCVCCVCCVCCVCCVCCVCCVCyCV'V jmive (31 chars.) e.g. 29 .i cabjagnixtulroskazdempafyva'i minimum of relearning to be able The currently-resulting girl's- to start participating in the leg prose has the quality of Lojban community, should such an dense father value" (or orthography option be part of the something) resolution of our differences. The alternate orthography is Once you've got the structure, thus a mapping from Lojban back to they're easy to concoct, and I've the original orthography of no doubt somebody can come up with Loglan, with a couple of things better ones. that JCB added after the split like the doubled letters for [The challenge to the community is syllabic consonants. Thus, JCB to propose some better pangrams used "ao" for the diphthong that using any of these forms. I know we write in Lojban as "au". JCB of at least one Lojban poet doesn't use apostrophes in non- (Michael Helsem) who will probably diphthong VV pairs. (He has never have a field day with this kind of addressed the problem that we challenge. We will print the best resolved through the devoiced submittals in a future issue of glide). He uses 'h', but 'x' as a JL.] distinct phoneme is found only in names, whereas historically, An Alternative Orthography for Loglan considered our 'x' to be an Lojban allophone of 'h'.] by John Cowan NOTE: This document is not an [Editor's note: This is an official policy of the Logical optional alternative to the cur- Language Group and has not been rent Lojban writing system, not a endorsed by the LLG or its Board change or replacement. In short, (to which, for my sins, I belong). this proposal is a way to write Still less is it endorsed by any Lojban so that it looks more like other non-profit organization con- any other version of Loglan, and cerned with the development of hence be more palatable to JCB. logical languages. I don't think that any Lojbanist This note proposes an considers the alternative more alternative orthography for Loj- desirable than what we do now - we ban. The orthography here made the current Lojban described is not intended to re- orthography in order to better place the existing standard reflect the way people will learn orthography. Nothing in this note and speak the language (although is intended as a proposal for the use of doubled consonants for change either in Lojban's syllabics might actually be an orthography or its phonology. The improvement if used throughout the purpose of the alternative language - TLI Loglan uses this orthography is to provide a way of convention only for syllabic writing Lojban which visually consonants in borrowings, and not resembles the conventions used by in lujvo.) earlier versions of the Loglan However, having an orthography language, including the version that looks more 'normal' to JCB is proposed in the 4th edition of an advantage in trying to reach a Loglan 1 (1989). long term solution to our differences - something that we The standard Lojban orthography have long sought. By having a set makes use of 23 letters of the of standard mappings between the Roman alphabet, viz. a b c d e f g two orthographies, it becomes i j k l m n o p r s t u v x y z, relatively trivial for someone to plus the three signs: write a program that can convert apostrophe "'" for a voiceless text written in one orthography to intervocalic glide roughly similar the other form. Thus TLI to English /h/; Loglanists would have to do a 30 comma "," for a voiced i,e i,i i,o i,u u,a u,e intervocalic glide; u,i u,o u,u. period "." for a pause or glottal stop. 4) Capitalization is used for Capitalization is used to repre- the first letter of names, and for sent abnormal non-penultimate the cmavo ".i", which is written stress in names: the syllable to "I". be stressed is capitalized in its 5) Periods before words are entirety. dropped. The letters i and u are used in 6) Periods after words are three ways: as full vowels, in replaced by comma. This comma the falling diphthongs ai ei oi cannot be confused with the comma au, and in the rising diphthongs of 3b and 3c, because that cannot ia ie ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu. appear at the end of a word. The rising diphthongs appear only However, periods at the end of as stand-alone words and in names names are dropped. and borrowings. 7) Syllabic r l m n are written The letters r l m n are used as rr ll mm nn, and need not be set normal consonants and as syllabic off by comma. consonants (in names and 8) Other uses of comma are borrowings only). retained. When doubt arises Double letters are never used whether a comma represents a for any purpose. voiced or a voiceless glide, the voiceless glide is preferred. The alternative orthography 9) Stress is indicated by an [approximating the TLI system] apostrophe following the vowel of makes the following substitutions. the stressed syllable. 1) The letter "x" is replaced in all uses by "h". It is useful to Obviously, the alternative emphasize here that this does not orthography is much more "context- represent a change in sensitive" than the standard pronunciation. orthography. Two consecutive 2) The diphthong au is replaced vowels in the standard orthography by ao. always represent a diphthong; in 3) The apostrophe, which in the the alternative orthography, they standard orthography is used only may represent a diphthong, two between vowels, is replaced in the syllables with a voiceless glide, following ways: or two syllables with a voiced 3a) In a'a a'e a'u e'a e'e e'o glide, depending on the particular e'u o'a o'e o'o o'u, it is two vowels and on the kind of word dropped, producing aa ae in which they appear. On the au ea ee eo eu oa oe oo other hand, the difference between ou. syllabic and consonantal r l m n 3b) In a'i a'o e'i o'i, it is is clearly marked in the replaced by comma (sym- alternative orthography. bolizing the syllable break that accompanies the Here is a passage of Lojban glide) producing a,i a,o (written by Nick Nicholas) in both e,i o,i. orthographies: 3c) In i'a i'e i'i i'o i'u u'a u'e u'i u'o u'u, it is mi na certu le se zajbrnatleta dropped, producing ia ie .iku'i mi co'a jimpe lenu mi poi ii io iu ua ue ui uo uu; xelso cu no'e snada tu'a le la except that when these olimpik. nunjvi pe vi la tokios. diphthongs appear standing .isa'unai mi nu'o zmadu alone (as cmavo of selma'o zo'epeca'aku leni snada .iti'e le UI), or in names and mulno nizyji'a cu te zmadu mi le borrowings, it is replaced gugdrkore'a kuce'o le by comma, producing i,a gugdrnafganistana kuce'o le gugdrkenia kuce'o le 31 gugdrtrinidada kuce'o le xanto attain a community of native denci xaskoi gugde .iku'i mi speakers, these pauses will be one zmadu .u'a le gugdrlixtenctaine of the first things to disappear. .i lenu go'i cu pluka nuzba .i zmadu pluka fau le nu'o nu le Lojban pauses need not be the gugdrlixtenctaine cu se nunjvi la kind of pauses used by olimpik. separated-word speech recognizers; a glottal stop is a sufficient equivalent of pause. mi na certu le se zajbrrnatleta The two main uses of pauses are I kui mi coa jimpe lenu mi poi after names and before words xelso cu noe snada tua le la beginning with a vowel. In the Olimpik nunjvi pe vi la Tokios I first case, nothing will be able saunai mi nuo zmadu zoepecaaku to do much better; existing leni snada I tie le mulno speech-recognition systems nizyjia cu te zmadu mi le simply punt on names in general, gugdrrkorea kuceo le unless the name has been hard- gugdrrnafganistana kuceo le wired into the system as a word. gugdrrkenia kuceo le Glottal stops before words gugdrrtrinidada kuceo le xanto beginning with a vowel are denci xaskoi gugde I kui mi common enough in the zmadu u,a le gugdrrlixtenctaine world's languages: I lenu go,i cu pluka nuzba I consider German, which zmadu pluka fao le nuo nu le does not notate such gugdrrlixtenctaine cu se nunjvi la glottal stops but whose Olimpik speakers (of the standard dialect, anyway) invari- ably produce them. Not Criticisms of Lojban as a Tool for everybody speaks like Machine Translation anglophones - "English is the language you speak [Rick Morneau posted some criti- without moving your cisms of Lojban as a language for mouth", as my mother machine translation (MT). John (native German, near- Cowan responded to these, which native English) used to led Rick to try to clarify his ob- say. jections. John Cowan then re- sponded to the clarifications. In some cases this is true, The result is an excellent summary especially when one word ends of a number of the most common in a vowel and the next starts criticisms of Lojban, and the ar- in a vowel. However, there guments that we believe refute are some cases where a glottal them.] stop will not work: 1. if a word ends in a Here are the reasons why I feel voiced nasal and the following that Lojban is poorly suited for word starts in an unvoiced use as an interlingua in machine fricative, stop or affricate. translation: 2. if a word ends in an 1. Lojban claims that its words unvoiced fricative and the are self-segregating. Obviously, following word starts in an this feature is not needed for the unvoiced fricative, stop or analysis of written language, but affricate. it can greatly simplify the In these situations a analysis of continuous speech. glottal stop will either be Unfortunately, Lojban requires the impossible to detect, or will use of pauses in certain places in be eliminated through normal order to fully implement this phonological processes. If, feature. Enforced pauses are however, these juxtapositions unnatural and, should Lojban ever can not occur in Lojban then I withdraw my criticism. 32 These juxtapositions can occur only if the first word 2. Lojban syntax is too complex. is a name, and (as I said Regardless of the syntactic earlier) names are formalism you swear by notoriously intractable. (transformational grammar, They can violate the government/binding theory, phonotactics of the language generalized phrase structure in which they are embedded grammar, lexical functional in random ways, and existing grammar, home-brew grammar, ad word-based speech processors nauseam), a natural language minus simply punt on them. its idioms and irregularities can Lojbab adds: This item be represented with an equivalent seems irrelevant to the of fewer than three dozen issue that Rick says he is production rules. If I remember arguing. If he is solely correctly, Lojban syntax requires concerned in his criticism about ten times that number. with Lojban's suitability as Lojbanists claim that it is ma- an interlingua for machine chine-parsable, and I'm willing to translation of other take their word for it. However, languages, then an MT interlingua (IL) should have recognizability of pauses in a syntax that is as simple as a Lojban speech stream is possible. A simple syntax not irrelevant because a machine only makes it easier to parse the translator would not be IL, but more importantly, it makes processing Lojban speech. translating from the source Mandatory phonemic pauses language to the IL much easier. affect how humans speak the language and not on how As simple as possible, but no difficult it is to translate simpler. The Lojban grammar is it. a phrase structure grammar - it Answering the issue for does not have any transformation the case of a machine (T) rules or their more modern attempting to understand equivalents. Chomsky introduced spoken Lojban, I note that T rules, way back in Syntactic our statement is that a Structures, because he didn't glottal stop is a sufficient want to have to deal with phrase allophone of the phoneme structure grammars with (by "pause". If phonological guesswork) 104 to 105 rules. processes cause a glottal Lojban's 600-odd rules look stop to disappear, then pretty simple by comparison. under those circumstances a The existing parser generates Lojban speaker will need a a complete parse of a more exaggerated 'pause'. A 1600-word short story proper Lojban speaker will (with some pretty hairy have sufficient pause in his grammar - it's a or her dialect to separate deliberately complex the words. But errors in translation of a Saki speech will occur. To say short story) in about 15 that such errors in speech seconds on a '386 machine. are a burden on the machine The existing program is is a truism; we can also say not optimized for speed that it is a burden on the worth a damn - I machine if the speaker concentrated on lisps, slips in voiced con- maintainability. On a sonants that are unvoiced, 'Real Computer', parsing or speaks with stops that effort will be absolutely are insufficiently negligible. distinguished, all things that often happen in natural Your response puzzled me. A human speech. fast computer is not adequate 33 justification for creating in- [Lojbab adds: Rick is efficient code, especially making a big issue out of when the MT application itself rule counts that are will be grasping greedily for specific to the format in every cpu cycle it can get. which they are presented - Also, Lojban's 600-odd rules the language of input to the (twice as many as I thought!) YACC processor that verifies is still almost twenty times their unambiguity. Another as much as needed. So, rule format describing the compared with a syntax same language, the E-BNF designed explicitly for an MT included with this issue of IL, Lojban's parser requires JL, has only about 80 rules. only 20 times as much code as Of the E-BNF rules, 15 are minimally necessary. This is associated with the grammar quite a selling point! of mathematics (MEX), and 12 are associated with the 600 rules is for the full tense system (described in language. A pure in- John Cowan's paper that ac- terlingua application would companied JL16), leaving be unlikely to generate the perhaps 50 to cover the full language. A "core whole remainder of the subset" could be constructed grammar. that would be far more rigid By comparison, Rick in a but far smaller, and yet separate posting gave a truly be a subset. sample E-BNF set of rules However, I would also for what he considered an point to an argument given extremely "simple" grammar in The Elements of for a constructed language Programming Style. A tricky which has at least 40 E-BNF way of initializing a rules, but not specifying identity matrix in FORTRAN any MEX or tense grammar, is given, and the text even though all language has explains why it works. at least some rudiments of However, it then points out each. that the time taken to For an interlingua initialize such a matrix is translation system, mathe- always insignificant. In a matical text would be program with small matrices, translated notationally, not the time is insignificant in in words, and hence MEX an absolute sense; in a would not need to be part of program with large matrices, a machine translation sys- the time is insignificant tem. Thus MEX is an example relative to the time spent of John's statement that in all other matrix machine translation using operations, which are Lojban would implement only typically n2 to n3 expen- a subset of the Lojban sive. grammar. Furthermore, for IL Tense is an example of one applications there is no of the many features of real need to keep the Lojban natural language that are in text form; the conversion not easily represented in a from tree form to text form very simple language. You is absolutely trivial. might end up with an optimal (Lojban has no "obligatory language for internal data transformations" in the processing, but it is so sense of early Chomsky, so cumbersome to use for humans you print out the tree and that they cannot strip the parentheses.) significantly input or read the internal texts. Lojban tenses, expressing re- 34 lationships in space and In most natural language time about the referents of processing applications, a the sentences they occur in, sentence is represented using case could easily be expressed frames or a close equivalent. (In using expanded predicates brief, case frames are a practical (and the conversion from and elegant implementation of tense to predicate is basic X-bar theory, which, in my probably trivial for most opinion, gives tremendous cases that would occur in credibility to its claim of cross- natural language), but the linguistic applicability.) resulting text would be Lojban's inflexible place longer and no easier to structures and [selma'o] BAI convert to the tense bandaids are not only structure of another counterintuitive, but they force language. the computer to treat language Clearly. Lojban is not structures differently when they "20 times what is needed", are essentially the same. Each but rather is probably predicate, in effect, has a built- fairly close in size to in irregularity which requires Rick's 'minimal' grammar. extra processing by the computer. Rick also misinterprets John's statement that he did The present list does not do not design the parser for the fact justice, but there are speed, and he jumped to a in fact cross-predicate patterns false conclusion. John's of place structures. parser was designed for Furthermore, it was believed to maintainability, to minimize be more important to get each programming time, which is word as nearly right as possible our critical resource these than to shoe-horn the words into days. "Inefficient code" some existing framework. There has plenty of "excuse" when is simply a lot more complexity it gets the job done without in the Real World (TM) than affecting critical typical Schankian frames allow resources. But Lojban can for; lots and lots of idio- have faster processing: syncrasy. Still and all, 1300 Jeff Taylor's earlier place structures is simply not a parser, limited in text whopping amount: even given capacity, could do 1/4 of that we don't believe it's Saki in about 5 seconds on a possible to derive the place much slower 286 machine. structures of compounds Finally, of course, Lojban algorithmically from the place has the advantage of being structures of the underlying usable both for internal roots, those roots do constrain processing as well as by the the resultant place structures linguists/natural language to a marked degree. processing people who are building the knowledge John interpreted my use of engine (see our DARPA "case frames" as synonymous proposal in JL16). with Schankian scripts. Actu- ally, the two are not related 3. Lojban's predicate logic is not at all. My mention of X-bar very "logical" in the way it is theory should have clarified used to represent natural the matter, except, of course, language. (It may be "logical" to those who are unfamiliar for testing the Sapir-Whorf with X-bar theory. My hypothesis, but this has no apologies. bearing on its use as an MT IL.) In a case frame It's assignment of place representation, each node can structures is too arbitrary and be represented by a head and inflexible for use as an MT IL. its modifiers. This is the 35 essence of X-bar theory. heuristics have not yet been Thus, a frame representing a defined.) noun phrase would have the To take an English main noun as its head and the example, "I see the dog" modifiers as adjuncts that involves a predicate "see" follow the head in the frame. and two arguments "I" and (A modifier can also be a "the dog". The definition complete relative clause, in of "see" determines which of which case it would be rep- these is the seer and which resented by the equivalent of the seen, but Lojban treats a separate sub-frame). A them as syntactically sentence would have the main identical. verb as its head, and noun phrases that are arguments of 4. Lojban's list of concept the verb would, in effect, be primitives (gismu) is inadequate its modifiers. These and lacks semantic motivation. structures, of course, are re- Now, I've read hand-waving cursive. Note that, arguments claiming that the gismu syntactically, all elements in are not semantic primitives. Yet a frame that modify their that is exactly the way they are heads are treated equally. used. The fact is, an awful lot Note also, that these case of work has been done in both frames are simply an easy way computational and theoretical to represent syntactic trees linguistics in the search for a in a computer. Lojban predi- meaningful set of semantic cates and their designer- primitives. A few examples are selected, pseudo-thematic Silvio Ceccato's semantic place structures force hierarchies (circa 1950-1960), arguments to be treated dif- Yorick Wilks semantic primitives ferently when they are (circa 1977), Roger Schank's essentially the same. In primitive ACTs (circa 1977), other words, some branches of Donald Fass's comprehensive genus the tree will require classification (mid 1980's), Anna different code to handle than Wierzbicka's semantic primitives other branches. Nothing is (1970-1980), and, most recently, gained except counter- Kathleen Dahlgren's knowledge productive complexity. representation work (1989). Any So, although Lojban's one of these systems could be used predicate structures do not as is, or modified for use in the make the job impossible, they design of an AL. And any one of do make it much more difficult them would have provided a solid than it has to be. foundation for the semantics of an AL. Now, I realize that Loglan I do not understand this got its start before most of the argument. There seems to be work I mentioned above. However, a shift between talk of Loglanists and Lojbanists have syntax and talk of been modifying and repairing their semantics. The arguments of languages since then, and, as far a Lojban predicate are as I'm concerned, if something is syntactically all equal; broken it should be fixed. This semantically, each one plays is especially true if Lojban is to a specified role. Which be suitable for use as an MT IL, role can be determined by and if its semantics are to be as looking in the dictionary, "logical" as its other features. or if the word is a compound which is not in the diction- The best indication that none ary, by applying a set of of these "semantic primes" heuristics. (Despite sev- systems is fully adequate for eral efforts, those mapping the real world is the 36 very fact that there are so many everything? Lojban's gismu of them. The empirical list is a posteriori and derivation of the gismu list is merges semantic lists from admitted. Some of the words do several different sources. not belong in any list of It may not be the most semantic primes, and others tractable possible list, but exist for historical reasons it is a usable list in a only. We do repair things, but deep sense. Furthermore, only when they are demonstrably the same consideration broken; there has been no effort mentioned under syntax to reduce the number of gismu en applies here. There is no masse. We in Lojbanistan (he reason to suppose that the said) simply do not believe that IL generator will have there exists any truly sufficient smarts (or re- comprehensive semantic system sources) to generate text for mapping the immense variety that involves every one of of real-world predicates into a the 1300-odd root words. categorical or hierarchical sys- tem. Instead, the gismu are [Lojbab adds: That there meant to blanket semantic space, is no semantic theory in our ensuring that what needs to be selection of basic roots expressed can be expressed. need not be a failing - one Even so, large areas of has to show that some semantically "shallow" but semantic theory is "broad" space are underserved: universally enough true to foods, cultures, materials, give a better result. But living organisms. These since we contend to be able semantic areas will be covered to express most any concept by borrowings from natural lan- within Lojban, it doesn't guages. really matter what our set of roots are.] Of course there isn't a system, otherwise linguists If you're still not wouldn't be working on it. convinced, then consider this: What I failed to make clear there is not yet a single was that there's no need for a comprehensive theory of comprehensive, unchallenged syntax. Did this lack of a theory on which one could base comprehensive theory prevent the design of an AL. Keep in the Lojban designers from mind that linguists are trying designing a rigorous, machine- to develop a theory that will tractable syntax? correctly describe and explain the totality of human The history of the Loglan language. An AL designer Project shows that the needs only a single, simple rigorous machine-tractable system that can be applied syntax was not actually rigorously and that is suffi- achieved until a systematic ciently robust to allow any re-design of the grammar was human language statement to be undertaken using YACC as an accurately converted into the indispensable tool. I do AL. not mean that the language was changed to make YACC-ing "A single, simple system easier; the only changes [of semantics]" - ah, made were those forced by there's the rub. How can the goal of "0 shift-reduce, you be sure that your 0 reduce-reduce conflicts "single, simple system", found". presumably designed a If the theory and practice priori, really does cover of LALR(1) parsing was not 37 so well understood, I doubt house for inhabitants who are that Lojban would have a blue, a house that is blue in "rigorous, machine-tractable the appropriate way for houses, syntax". There is simply a house for people who are nothing comparable in the slowly turning blue,... Since semantic domain for checking the first requisite of Lojban is the correctness and that it be speakable (it is a completeness of a design. human language, not a code), not all ambiguity can be weeded out. 5. Lojban's process of creating Lojban works on removing compound words from its set of structural ambiguity so that the primitives seems to depend on con- real problems of semantic textual disambiguation for proper ambiguity can be openly faced. understanding. In other words, it is as "illogical" as the same lo cimni ka satci cu se jdima process in natural languages. (I lo cimni ni valsi believe that Jim Carter has the-thing-which-is-an infinite criticized Loglanists for this type-of quality-of preciseness lack.) In computer translation, has-as-price the-thing-which- the computer will often run into a is-an infinite type-of situation where a compound word in quantity-of words the IL does not have a counterpart The price of infinite in the target language. In this precision is infinite situation, the computer must be verbosity. able to break up the word into an equivalent phrase or clause. In I failed to make clear that other words, the computer must be such a compromise can be able to generate a paraphrase of achieved along with the the relationship between the more reversible compositionality primitive components of the that is needed in machine compound. You can, of course, put translation. For example, the this information in the English compound "houseboat" dictionary, but this solution is can be decomposed as "boat not at all practical if you want which functions as a house". to keep your dictionaries simple, The compound "windowpane" can and if you want to have one be decomposed as "pane which dictionary per natural language is part of a window". In a usable for both source and target machine translation translation. I could say much application, the relationships more on this extremely important "which functions as" and topic, but to do so would take "which is a part of" must be more time than I have, and this explicitly stated in the thing is already too long. In compound word. This can summary, though, an IL designed always be done with the addi- for use in MT must be maximally tion of a single morpheme and reversibly compositional. which would, in effect, link the component morphemes and There are two separate points indicate the relationship that to sort out here: the mapping exists between them. This of compounds to phrases, and the would normally mean an explication of phrases. Every additional syllable (and, of compound can be mapped to a course, an appropriately de- phrase, and potentially every signed morphology), and phrase to a compound, unambigu- apparently many people would ously and reversibly. What is object to this for esthetic left ambiguous is the precise reasons. However, one set of compositional rules. additional syllable is a small Does "blanu zdani" (blue house) price to pay when the mean a house that is blue, a potential reward is so high. house part of which is blue, a 38 Without this simple languages, forces "sacrifice", your AL will be ambiguity to be squeezed useless as an IL. out before a correct translation can be Lojban compounds (whether generated. (I am not closed or open) are by referring here to the design semantically problem of translating ambiguous. However, there intentional ambiguity, as are always paraphrases which in poetry, which is surely disambiguate them. An IL far beyond the state-of- generator would presumably the-art of any computer- not generate ambiguous based technique.) If all compounds. languages without exception deviated from 6. Finally, a logical language is predicate logic in the inherently unsuitable for same ways, then the need representing natural language. for a neutral medium would Lojban is called a logical not exist - but they language for good reason. It don't. For example, forces a speaker to express Lojban can be neutral himself according to various rules among languages that of logic. Natural languages do affirm a negative question not require a speaker to be with "No" (like English), logical in the same way. As a with "Yes" (like Russian), result, when translating from a and that repeat the natural language into Lojban, the negated verb (like Irish). computer will often have to fully understand what the speaker is How can "being equally saying (to "fill in the gaps", so foreign to all natural to speak), which is well beyond languages" be anything but an the capabilities needed for normal impassible barrier? An disambiguation. It is also well interlingua designed for use beyond the capabilities of in machine translation must computers. be, as much as humanly possible, a reductive and But is it "well beyond the fundamental distillation of capabilities needed" in all the essential features of cases? It seems to me that natural language. Not even given two languages A and B, and the slightest degree of three meanings a, b, c, that "foreignness" can be language A expresses a and b tolerated. with an ambiguous sentence, whereas language B expresses b "The" essential features? and c with an ambiguous Which are those? Unless you sentence. If meaning b is have a theory (or at least a intended, then translating set of heuristics) telling ambiguity with ambiguity is a you the essential features, safe procedure - but in your project will be translating a from A into B, or inherently parochialized by c from B into A, the ambiguity the particular case you must be tackled and resolved. A choose to debug it with. system that does not "fully un- Lojban is intended to derstand what the speaker is provide a framework which saying" will inevitably make minimizes metaphysical blunders of this type. assumptions; thus S/W is The neutral framework of assumed as a hypothesis (its predicate logic which Loj- falsity is the null hy- ban employs, being equally pothesis to be rejected). foreign to all natural Therefore, the assumptions of the original must be 39 spelled out in the Lojban Anyhow, I meant to use the version, which can then be aphorism rather than interpreted and reduced by mentioning it; I was the process that composes pointing out that if Lojban the translation. is confined to fully explicit semantic forms, it John wrote the Lojban for will be unspeakable because "The price of infinite too verbose. Even your precision is infinite glosses like "boat which verbosity." functions as a house" are This is such a simple not really enough. Pre- statement in English (and cisely which of the equally simple in Swahili and "functions" of the house are French and Indonesian and how provided by the houseboat, many others?), yet how complex and which are not? For and convoluted it is in example, one of the Lojban! I shudder at the functions of a house may be thought of designing software to serve as a recipient of that is smart enough to know mail, but a houseboat that "infinite precision" must typically does not. So you be paraphrased as "the-thing- need something like "boat which-is-an infinite type-of which functions as a house quality-of preciseness", and in that it provides shelter that "infinite verbosity" must and a fixed platform for be paraphrased as "the-thing- engaging in normal domestic which-is-an infinite type-of behavior". Each word in quantity-of words". I'm not this expansion itself re- even sure it's possible. The quires further expansion; in degree of understanding needed particular, "fixed" with to generate these paraphrases respect to what? Obviously may be required by natural not the shore of the river! language understanding [Lojbab adds:] In case systems, but not by machine the motivation for John's translation systems. last point isn't clear, I want to point out that there It is an aphorism of may not be a word Lojbanic culture (such as it corresponding to "houseboat" is), making use of the full in every natural language - resources of the Lojban or that might be more than language. The literal gloss one, with significant minor is complex and convoluted, denotation differences based but that is because Lojban on exactly which functions is not encoded English. are performed. Would the Somewhere or other, Chinese word for the boats Jespersen has translations that people live on in the of "First come, first rivers and ports of China be served", an aphorism which an accurate translation for is simple and terse in English "houseboat" in every English, into French and instance of the latter's Danish. The French isn't occurrence. bad, but the Danish is I'm not sure that a incredibly verbose and successful machine transla- downright baroque. I can tion system can be anything just imagine what the Danish less than a full-featured (Swahili, Bahasa Indonesia, natural language system, ...) for "The more the unless you intend to have merrier, but the fewer the substantial human translator better fare" looks like! verification of every single word choice made. 40 In summary, I feel that an of data is needed to capture the interlingua for use in machine "total" meaning of a statement.] translation must be as close as we can come to the elusive In summary, I do not feel that "universal grammar". In Lojban (or Glosa, or Esperanto, or attempting to provide a test Vorlin) is suitable for use as a for the Sapir-Whorf machine translation interlingua, hypothesis, Loglan designers in spite of claims to the con- have had no choice but to go trary. Most importantly, I see in exactly the opposite nothing in Lojban that would direction. facilitate the most difficult aspect of machine translation: By the way, most of the claims translating from a natural lan- I've heard about Lojban's guage to the interlingua. What I suitability for use as an MT IL do see is an AL that has so little seem to be based on its underlying in common with natural languages, predicate structure. Now, many that translating between it and a (most?) linguists and logicians natural language will be con- are of the opinion that predicate siderably more difficult than logic is not suitable for repre- translating directly between senting natural language. Some, natural languages. And this does however, disagree and have created not surprise me at all, a school of semantics usually considering that Loglan/Lojban was called Montague semantics (other designed to test the Sapir-Whorf names and minor variations are hypothesis. Such a language, by model-theoretic semantics, truth- its very nature, would be the conditional semantics and antithesis of what is needed for possible-worlds semantics). These an MT IL, no matter how "logical" linguists are attempting to do it is. what Loglanists claim to have Finally, I realize that much of already done; i.e., developing a what I've said is potentially formal and unambiguous method for flammable. However, I'd like to representing natural language. make it clear that I have no So, if you do in fact make this intention of angering anyone, and, claim, then you might want to test if I have, please accept my it on the people who count the apologies. I can even admit the most - the Montague semanticists. possibility that I've Show them how predicate logic and misunderstood some of the features its accessories can be used to of Lojban that I've criticized represent natural language. If it (although I doubt it). Also, means learning their lingo (and it please keep in mind that I've only probably will if you want to get criticized one aspect of Lojban - their attention), then do it! The its claimed suitability for use as burden of proof, however, is on a machine interlingua. In most you. other respects I find Lojban to be a fascinating language, and, if I [Lojbab responds: pc studied were not committed to learning semantics under Montague at other languages as part of my MT UCLA, and is quite capable of hobby, I would probably be speaking the lingo. But Loglan studying Lojban (in spite of its does not claim to unambiguously ugly consonant clusters :-). handle semantics of natural language; indeed I claim that Lojbab: I would not be angry semantics is impossible to with Rick Morneau for what handle unambiguously because it appears to be an honest is dependent on the whole of the difference of opinion. Nor do I speaker's and listener's say that Rick's arguments are background experiences as well ones that cannot or should not as on the current context, and be raised. I believe that some thus a virtually infinite amount 41 of them do not apply to Lojban, important to the some do not apply to Lojban as translation. it would be used in an MT For example, the English application, and some are simply phrase "ship which is irrelevant, or at best matters faster than light", which of opinion. may also be expressed as In some matters of opinion, "faster-than-light ship". there is not always an Does an interlingua for MT 'ironclad' method of need the capability to refuting them. The rule- separately distinguish the counting game is an two forms, which probably example, since comparing mean almost identical rule counts is so things, if not totally dependent on how they are identical in meaning? stated, and what features This is a design decision, of the language are not a theory decision. If included in the not-yet- the target language offers designed Lojban machine equivalent forms to the translation system. Which two English variations, rules would be used is then preserving the form going to be determined by of the original is the MT system designer valuable in achieving a based on factors that are natural-seeming style in not knowable now. the output of the Lojban features such as the translation. If merely tense system each reflect the information is to be things that occur in transferred, then such natural languages, and to stylistic preservation is eliminate one means that wasted. Lojban has rules the translator will have that support both forms. to use software to An MT system designer that simplify or paraphrase in did not care to support translation into Lojban, both forms could easily though it might then leave out one rule from simplify the processing the Lojban interlingua. out of Lojban thereafter, But in a 10-language when the Lojban has to be system, this potentially processed. means that you must write Indeed in writing this last 10 input processors to sentence, I realize that I decide that such ordering believe the opposite of information is to be Rick. The basis of an simplified out into the interlingua-based MT single remaining Lojban system is to minimize (or other interlingua) language-specific form, and then you need 10 processing for source and output processors that target languages, which will decide based on some processing expands at a criteria which of two or higher degree polynomial more output forms in the of the number of languages target language will in a non-interlingua reflect the single Lojban system. An interlingua form. Clearly, in such a which is ultra-simplified situation, an requires that the source oversimplified Lojban or language be paraphrased in other interlingua an ultra-simplified manner increases the processing which may lose significant required. The better information that could be interlingua is the one that can convey the maximum amount of complex 42 information across the mailing list language boundaries. "[email protected]", Lojbab As an example of one of Rick's wrote: claims that is an ir- refutable argument, look Michael Kac says: at the claim that natural On the basis of unsystematic languages are too complex observation and impressionistic to be modelled by a judgements which are confirmed logical language. If by all other linguists I've there is more that I am consulted, it would appear that missing, I apologize. But the view that one's world view this is an argument by as- is determined by the language sertion, since Rick has one speaks is nearly universally not posed any specific accepted by educated people who natural language feature aren't linguists. that cannot be modelled by a logical language - he I'll concur, as well, and my has merely argued from primary interaction is with such assumptions. That these people. The exceptions to this are assumptions are plausible correlated with politics, with does not mean that they some people (usually 'left') are correct. While Rick considering linguistic relativism states that logical to be racist. However, even these analysis has failed in the people are inconsistent, since the case of Montague grammar arguments about gender and pro- semantics, another poster nouns/language-gender (including noted that Montague the recent one on Linguist List) grammars have been used in inherently assume some form of MT systems. language effect on world-view, or Whether natural languages are it wouldn't make any difference. too complex to be modelled Note that the occasionally emotive by a logical language is arguments in this latter dis- probably indeterminate. cussion shows that even linguists For every example Rick may to some extent assume what poses, I may be able to they claim they don't. find a counter, but this Factors in the continuing belief does not stop him from include: claiming that there are many more that I have not a) what people mean by 'world covered. view' and 'determined' is Since Lojban does not embed different. Sapir-Whorf is any particular semantic generally understood to have theory into its design, strong and weak versions, with the attacking Montague strongest form almost certainly grammars doesn't say much false because translation IS about Lojban anyway. To possible, and the weakest form say that our design is true to the point of triteness. inadequate, you have to b) the field of semiotics is show how it fails. Rick heavily dependent on assuming has not. I would contend linguistic relativism, and most that he cannot, without educated people are more exposed getting much deeper into to literary criticism than the Lojban design than he linguistic theory. probably cares to. c) the continuing identification of political issues with the Discussions on the Sapir-Whorf linguistic relativity assumption. Hypothesis As such, people are continually exposed to the assumption in daily In a discussion of Sapir-Whorf life without it being explicitly on the Linguist List linguistic identified as a hidden assumption. 43 d) I believe certain areas of conducted in the 50s truly settled anthropological linguistics still the issue. Supporters of the accept Sapir-Whorf to some extent, hypothesis seem to think that especially where the researcher is linguists abandoned the issue ei- in the anthropology department ther because they could not prove rather than the linguistics dept. it one way or the other, or My source of this is Reed Riner at because the idea became unfash- U. of No. Arizona, but I think I ionable or even non-P.C. with the heard something similar from John rise of Chomsky's ideas. Atkins who was at U. of If unambiguously true, the Washington. hypothesis itself is uninter- I've used the phrase 'linguistic esting. Until the bounds of its relativity' because when actually truth are explored, the philo- pinned down, many people will say sophical implications will that they aren't sure whether continue to be profound. language determines world-view or I think there is some vice versa, but that there is considerable correlation in atti- obviously a relation. tude on linguistic relativity and language prescriptivism. In the I guess I don't find that latter area as well, linguists particularly strange (a lot of tend to have a considerable dis- my friends, however, consider ME agreement with the educated- extremely strange for being populace-at-large, who consider it skeptical on this point); a truism that there is a right way to speak and use a language and The Loglan (artificial language) other usages are wrong. This as- project has the goal (among sumption is also considered others) of testing the 'Sapir- 'obvious', and when its fallacies Whorf hypothesis'. Those of us and philosophical implications are working on the project, linguists pointed out, also considered pro- or not, are assumed by many to found. 'believe in' the SWH, though we __________________________________ are predominantly agnostic or _______ skeptical like you. I think it is again an unquestioning assumption A lively debate ensued, partly in that the concept holds, with response to these comments. little analysis of the implications, that leads to this Niko Besnier, Department of assumption. Anthropology, Yale University <[email protected]> replied: I do find it somewhat odd that people who accept this view seem The reason why linguistic to think that it is (a) anthropologists "still" believe in obviously correct, and (b) some version of the Sapir-Whorf profound, a contradiction in Hypothesis (SWH) is not that they terms. I welcome further data know less about language than and insights. mainstream linguists (many fields have much to say about language, and it is a delusion to think that Again, I think people assume the any one field has a monopoly on concept to be obviously correct in the subject), but that they focus some 'weak' form and also intu- on language in a different way itively realize that it breaks from linguists. The prototypical down in some stronger form. anthropological paradigm focuses The profundity is due to the on diversity, on the particular, never-ending political and and builds theory on the philosophical implications of the particular, looking at, for assumed-true concept. That the example, relational patterns hypothesis isn't even well stated between the particular in language means that none of the tests and the particular in society and 44 culture. This contrasts with the are in fact very different from avowed universalism extant in most areas that Whorf is usually said linguistic paradigms. Having been to have claimed to be "brought up" in the latter deterministic. I'd point to work paradigm, to then move to some like that of Elinor Ochs as version of the former, I am at a example of where determinism is to loss to decide that one is be found between language and "better," more intellectually habitual thought: the shape of, worthwhile, etc., than the other. even the presence/absence of baby I doubt that mud-slinging talk in a speech community, ("butterfly collector!" provides a pretty strong "universalist-schmuniversalist!") deterministic "lesson" to language will get either field very far. acquirers about the relationship There is room for the SWH in a between structure (= institutions) particularistic approach to and agency (= person) extant in language. But what it has to be the society, i.e. about the type grounded on is a careful reading of things that social theorists of poor Whorf, who must be on the worry about. most misread (unread?) thinkers of This posting is already too the century. Interpretations of long, but I'd like to point to Whorf extant amongst mainstream Alan Rumsey's (1990) paper, linguists have little to do with "Wording, Meaning, and Linguistic what Whorf actually wrote, and Ideology," American Anthropologist this had led linguists to call the 92:346-361, for an excellent man by all sorts of names (e.g. discussion of where Whorfianism "weekend linguist" - Geoffrey works. Pullum in NLLT). It is telling, for example, that in my linguistic __________________________________ training at two institutions I was ______ never required to read a single original text by Whorf. To a [Bruce Nevin gave a very detailed certain extent this is under- and informative discussion of the standable, since Whorf wrote in an Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. He has opaque, dense style. given us permission to publish the John Lucy ("Whorf's view of the entire text which is part of a linguistic mediation of thought," longer work-in-progress. The I, in Semiotic Mediation, ed. by II, and III perspectives listed in Elizabeth Mertz & Richard the text are not his but as cited. Parmentier, Academic P, 1985) Following is Bruce's relevant shows that one of the important background. aspects of the SWH missing from Bruce Nevin received his AB and laypersons' accounts (i.e. AM degrees in linguistics from the accounts by those who have not University of Pennsylvania in 1969 read Whorf) is that Whorf is not and 1970. From 1970 through 1974 talking about determinism by all he did extensive fieldwork on of language of all aspects of Achumawi, a Hokan language spoken world view. Rather, fashions of in the northeastern corner of speaking determine habitual California. He resumed PhD ma- thought. Fashions of speaking are triculation at the University of broad patternings of grammatical Pennsylvania in 1987, intending to categories and discourse use the Achumawi material in the strategies in a language, across dissertation. He has been em- what Whorf calls overt and covert ployed as a writer by Bolt Beranek categories. Areas of language and Newman (BBN) in Cambridge, where one should seek "weak" Massachusetts since 1982. determinism (the strong version of The following is Copyright 1991 determinism was never advocated by by Bruce Nevin, <[email protected]>.] Whorf, but by subsequent linguists who never seem to have read Whorf) 45 I want to outline the views of in which different societies Sapir and of Whorf on linguistic live are distinct worlds, not and cultural relativism as I merely the same world with understand them and survey some of different labels attached." what has been done with these ideas, both as deriving explicitly It was in this sense that he from their writings and as arising made his famous assertion "The from less clearly articulated fact of the matter is that the cultural and intellectual an- 'real world' is to a large extent tecedents that it is difficult for unconsciously built up on the any of us not in some measure to language habits of the group." share as we grapple with (Preceding quotations all loc. universals and idiosyncrasies of cit.) language and culture. The core of the matter for These ideas arose for Sapir in Sapir, however, was an iden- the context of his work on tification of language, language typology on the one hand specifically grammatical cate- and psychology on the other. In gories, with thought: the background lay social Darwinism, or at least the "I quite frankly commit myself pervasive evolutionist perspective to the idea that thought is im- of 19th-century anthropology, and possible without language, that in this respect Sapir's interest thought is language." (In a here was a continuation of Boas' letter of 8 April 1921 keeping restitution of "primitive" lan- Lowie abreast of progress on the guages as on an equal footing with manuscript of Language; quoted the languages of familiar literate in Darnell 1990:99.) cultures, and an all-important entree into "the network of In other places, Sapir severely cultural patterns of a divorces language from culture, civilization," which "In a sense but in this he appears to mean ... is indexed in the language material culture, the "inventory" which expresses that of cultural artefacts. The civilization." (1929:162) correlation of these things with In his conception of the associated vocabulary he regarded relation of language, personality, as trivial.2 culture, and "the world," Sapir Whorf may have been a distinguished between social Theosophist. His philosophical reality: interests attracted him to Sapir and to linguistics, and his "Language is a guide to `social fascination with the "hidden reality.' ... it powerfully con- metaphysics" of languages remained ditions all our thinking about always the central thing for him, social problems and processes for which the tools of linguistics ... the world of social activity were subordinate means. From the as ordinarily understood"1 and objective reality, as had ____________________ Durckheim and others, and affirmed of the former that: 2Darnell (1990:434 n) says: Sapir's strongest relativity "No two languages are ever statement was a brief note titled sufficiently similar to be "Conceptual Categories of considered as representing the Primitive Languages," an abstract same social reality. The worlds of a paper read to the National Academy of Sciences in 1931. This ____________________ was published only after his 1Hoijer, in the 1953 conference death. Her bibliography lists it proceedings, adduces passages of a as appearing in Science 74:578. I similar sort in the writings of have not seen it and cannot Boas. comment. 46 point of view of an emerging organization which may concen- profession, then, he was quite trate systematically upon literally eccentric, in that certain phases of reality, cer- specific sense. His ideas began tain aspects of intelligence, to crystallize with preparation to and may systematically discard teach a course at Yale during others featured by other Sapir's leave in 1937-38. His in- languages. The individual is tention was to "excite [students'] utterly unaware of this interest in the linguistic organization and is constrained approach as a way of developing complete within its unbreakable understanding of the ideology of bonds." (256) other peoples" (letter to Spier). He would focus on "a psychological Since: direction, and the problems of: "if a rule has absolutely no "meaning, thought and idea in exceptions, it is not recognized so-called primitive cultures," as a rule or as anything else; aiming to "reveal psychic it is then part of the factors or constants" and the background of experience of "organization of raw experience which we tend to remain un- into a consistent and readily conscious. communicable universe of ideas through the medium of linguistic In the background always is patterns" (to Carroll; both Theosophy, as in The Voice of the quoted in Darnell 1990:381). Silence: Whorf developed his ideas about The mind is the great slayer of linguistic relativity during the real." (Quoted on p. 253) Sapir's illness and elaborated it after his death, so Sapir His views were recast in terms never had a chance to comment. more acceptable to prevalent Whorf died in 1941 at the age of conceptions of operational test forty-four, leaving less and verification, as by Eric sympathetic colleagues to pursue Lenneberg in 1953, summarized by the implications of his work. Roger Brown (Reference: In (Darnell 1990:375) Memorial Tribute to Eric Lenneberg, Cognition 4:125-153): Sapir had confined the constitutive role of language to I. Structural differences social reality. Whorf went between language systems will, farther, and developed the claim in general, be paralleled by that: nonlinguistic cognitive dif- ferences, of an unspecified "It is the grammatical sort, in the native speakers of background of our mother tongue, the two languages. which includes not only our way of constructing propositions but II. The structure of anyone's the way we dissect nature and native language strongly influ- break up the flux of experience ences or fully determines the into objects and entities to world-view he will acquire as he construct propositions about." learns the language. (p. 128) (1956:239) Behind this was the assumption The identification of language (presumably "part of the and thought takes an adversative unconscious background" of every twist: student in the Boas-Sapir tradition, and indeed of virtually "[T]hinking ... follows a everyone as has been argued on the network of tracks laid down in LINGUIST list) that: the given language, an 47 III. Languages, and hence other than color perception, in cognitive systems, can vary particular domains (they mention without constraint. religion) where characteristics of peripheral neural mechanisms like Proposition II has generally those of color perception have no been presumed to be untestable bearing. because of the identification of A parallel tradition of research language and any means of into aspect I of the hypothesis communicating one's world-view. has been carried out primarily by Attempts to verify or falsify the psychologists, and Kay and Kempton hypothesis have concerned (1984) is a continuation of this. themselves either with I or III They cite Brown and Lennebert (with indirect evidence for II 1954, Burnham and Clark 1955, sought from III). It would be in- Lenneberg 1961, Lantz and Stefflre teresting to see a resumption of 1964, and Stefflre, Castillo, and attention to II; e.g. employing Morely 1966. This line of techniques developed for study of research seeks a correlation non-human communication. between a linguistic variable A conference organized by Robert (codability and communication Redfield in 1953 drew together a accuracy) and a nonlinguistic relatively small number of lin- cognitive variable (memorability) guists and anthropologists with within a single language, and is the aim of defining problems thus a weak form of I. related to the hypothesis, After initial claims of success reviewing work undertaken and in finding a positive correlation plans for future work relating to between the memorability of a it, and attempting to establish a color and its value on a minimal framework of institutional linguistic variable, Rosch showed support for these research inter- that both memorability and the ests. Their proposals concerned combined variable of codability mostly methods for getting at I. and accuracy of communication is Their conclusions were cautious, determined universally by focality as noted above, in keeping with or perceptual salience. The the temper of the times. assumption that the linguistic Kay and Kempton (AA 86:66), variables of codability and perhaps somewhat parochially but communication accuracy differ truthfully as regards empirical across languages (III again) was research, claim that most of this falsified by this research, and research has been in the domain of therefore any correlation between color. They give citations of memorability and a linguistic work bearing on III beginning variable was not relevant to the about the time of the Redfield hypothesis. Lucy and Shweder conference (Ray 1952, Conklin determined that the problem of 1955, Lenneberg and Roberts 1956, focality or salience was an Gleason 1961, Bohannan 1963), and artefact of how the color chips probably the best known study, were presented, and devised an their own (Berlin and Kay 1969). array by repeatedly re-randomizing They remark that "studies before chips from the initial array so 1969 tended to support III; those that there is no relation between since 1969 have tended to focality and findability. By this discredit III" (loc. cit.) They means they have reinstated the accept the finding of Kay and earlier correlation in favor of I McDaniel (1978) explaining uni- with respect to color categories. versal constraints in color There remain problems of classification in terms of the interpretation and relevance to neurophysiology of human color the broader aims of the vision, and discrediting III with enterprise, as unfortunately often respect to color. They affirm of happens in narrowly empirical course that research into II and work. III is an open matter for domains 48 Research of a broader sort has practical techniques of reframing gone on in many fields. In social and use of metaphor, and an and cultural anthropology it is understanding of human systems in difficult to find anything that is cybernetic terms, as therapy absolutely irrelevant to the (particularly the field of family Whorf-Sapir hypothesis, though the therapy). latter can be made irrelevant to Lastly, I must mention the some forms of anthropological work resurgence of feminism in all its essentially by legislating a many forms, especially as a rather narrowly realist, anti- scholarly concern in anthropology. constructivist perspective for I will describe in a little more science. Among clearly relevant detail a new test of aspect I of issues I name questions of sym- the hypothesis devised by Kay and bolism, including especially money Kempton (1984) so as not to be so and symbols of political and/or restricted in interpretive scope religious stature, magic and cargo as the previous communicability/- cults, studies of kinship systems codability studies had been. and their role in the construction Speakers of Tarahumara (a Uto- of interpersonal and social Aztecan language of northern Mexi- relations, and work in social cat- co) lack the basic lexical egories. To this must be added distinction between green and blue work of more obviously linguistic (as do various other languages, nature, such as projection of including Achumawi). Aspect I of prehistoric cultures from the hypothesis predicts that reconstructed proto-languages, speakers of English will polarize Studies of the bases of prejudice, their perceptions near the border of stereotyping, and of national of green and blue, but speakers of character in a more genuine sense Tarahumara will not.3 In the (as pioneered by Gregory Bateson) first experiment, English- ... the list is seemingly endless. speaker's judgements reflected the The fields of ethnolinguistics division of green against blue in and sociolinguistics, themselves 29 trials out of 30; Tarahumara extremely broad and diversified speakers responded even-handedly (and themselves polarized rather with 13 out of 24, extremely close as the right and left hemispheres to a 50-50 split, vindicating the of the brain of the archetypal hypothesis. anthropological linguist), have These experiments involve obvious bearing on the hypothesis. discriminating among three chips. Hymes has urged a reinterpretation In the first experiment, the of the hypothesis, investigating subject had an opportunity to patterns of language use rather assign a color name to the than of language structure per se. intermediate chip, and this may The perhaps contentiously named have prejudiced the later step of field of cognitive linguistics has the experiment, when the alternate a strong constructivist bent. comparison was made. The second Work in psycholinguistics in experiment made the comparisons general often has clear bearing, with the three chips adjacent in a though the direction of interest box with a sliding cover that (and funding) to linguistic universals has tended to obscure ____________________ investigation of linguistic 3This phenomenon of polarization, idiosyncrasies that might by the way, is the reason speakers correlate with cognitive of English can disagree so differences. strongly about the assignment of From Bateson's work on marginal colors to either green or communication and learning and in blue. A slight difference in particular the discovery of the idiosyncratic placement of the double bind in relation to these boundary makes a large difference have developed lines of clinical in categorization. This would research that have developed provide the basis of an interesting study relating to I. 49 covered the chip on one end. In the conventional categories of the setup stage, the subject one's shared language and culture. agrees that the middle chip is In formal linguistics, Zellig greener with respect to one chip, Harris and his co-workers have and then that it is bluer than the come full circle to the work on other. It thus has both names information structures in associated with it when the discourse that opened the whole subject is invited to alternate field of transformational grammar. views as often as desired, and Harris, Ryckman, Gottfried et al. judge which difference is greater. The Form of Information in Science In this experiment the (1990) develops a representation polarization effect disappears. of the information immanent in a This accords with an body of texts written over a span interpretation by categorization of years in the history of a sub- (experiment 1) versus an field of a science (immunology). interpretation by discrimination Changes in this structure (experiment 2). An exact parallel correlate transparently with could be made with the fact that historically well-documented people can discriminate changes and developmental stages differences between sounds with of the science during that period, indeterminate fineness although the structure was deter- (phonetics), but discriminate mined by clearly defined formal relevant differences that make a means and without reference to any difference in small numbers of knowledge of that historical categories (phonemes, contrasts, context. In this way, they have distinctions) and displaying demonstrated strongly that characteristic polarization structures found in the sub- effects at the boundaries. A language of that science (and not culturally/linguistically imposed a priori on it) correlate determined contrast can be re- on the one hand with aspects of peated, a difference requiring the social reality of the science perceptual discrimination can only and on the other with the be imitated. structure of the real-world domain Kay and Kempton interpret these which is the concern of that sci- findings as disconfirming what ence. they call radical linguistic The latter correlation is determinism, in which "human reflexive, however, in the sense beings ... are very much at the that, as the structure changed, it mercy of the particular language" (and the understanding of the (Sapir, quoted previously). Be- scientists writing the original cause the polarization associated research reports on which the with naming can be made to dis- analysis was done) over time came appear simply by not naming, we into closer conformity with a are not hopelessly at the mercy of reality whose nature was in our language. To this I would add process of being discovered. that it is difficult to do many Before that change and that sorts of things cooperatively with concurrent discovery, certain other human beings or with social characteristics of reality could consequence and recognition not be stated or thought; without employing the categories afterward, they could. But the inherent in language. The excep- discovery and the change in tions, it seems to me, are in the structure were simultaneous realms of art, of religion, of (though of course the writing down play and creativity. These are for publication was not). No the domain of the pleroma in better confirmation of Sapir's Bateson's terms, the realm of intuition of the essential unity cybernetic explanation, as opposed to the creatura, the realm of forces and impacts dealt with in 50 of language and thought could be to come to recognize and un- offered by one of his students.4 derstand, and not possible to To illustrate this point communicate; she claims that with further, I should like to adduce a the proposed new terminology it recent contribution to the is.5 enormous literature in the study Thus, while providing an of kinship categories, always a illustration of Whorfian effects favorite topic in anthropological within a sub-field of a science, linguistics. Wierzbicka, in she proposes to overcome such Semantics and the interpretation effects by devising a perfect of cultures: the meaning of metalanguage for that sub-field. 'alternate generations' devices in Since the sub-field concerns an Australian languages, proposes a area that is by nature a matter of new set of metalanguage terms for social convention and so in social discussing the alternate sets of reality rather than physical pronouns used in many Australian reality (to make that Durckheimian languages. She urges that the distinction again), she may be terminology of "generation able to get away with it. I do harmony" and "disharmony" that has not doubt the creativity of human become traditional in anthropology is arcane and psychologically ar- ____________________ bitrary, does not capture native 5This is part of Wierzbicka's speakers' meaning and does not ongoing work on natural language make that meaning accessible to semantics based, ultimately, on a people from other cultures, and proposed set of universal semantic claims that her new terminology primitives, including: I, you, provides a better fit. This work this, someone, something, want, illustrates a Whorfian effect in don't want, say, think of, the sub-language of a spe- imagine, know, become, part, cialization within the science of place, and world (Wierzbicka, anthropology. With the Semantic Primitives (1972), Lingua traditional terminology, aspects Mentalis (1980). Be it noted that of aborigine culture are difficult Harris denies there can be a lin- gua mentalis or any metalanguage ____________________ external to natural language. For 4The confirmation is equivocal, one thing, were there such one however, since the work clearly would need to account for the demonstrates (as Harris stated at grammar and semantics of that the end of Mathematical Structures metalanguage, and off we go in an of Language (Wiley, 1968)) that infinite regress of grammatical language is not identical with and semantic metalanguages. For thought but instead provides a another, Harris has demonstrated rather rigid channel for thought. that the information structures This corresponds precisely to the immanent in texts account observation above that the precisely for the information that discovery and the language for the texts report, so that, like talking about it co-evolved. By LaPlace, he has no need for this using this term I refer additional hypothesis. But specifically to the common Wierzbicka's proposal here, misperception regarding biological however it may be guided by her evolution that e.g. eohippus broader theoretical interests, evolved into the horse in response concerns only a sub-language of to environmental changes, when one English serving as metalanguage must instead acknowledge eohippus for a sub-field of anthropology, and its pre-grasslands environment and as such is unobjectionable. co-evolved into the horse and its The semantics of this sub-language grasslands environment. Synec- inhere in its informational doche is fallacious in both cases. structures, per Harris, rather The claim, then, is of the unity, than in its use of vocabulary from but not identity of language and a supposedly universal lingua thought. mentalis. 51 cultures, however, and would build hypothesis, we tested only one in means for the sub-language to question: Do the lexical evolve. categories of a language affect An abiding interest of Harris, non-linguistic perceptions of its as of his teacher Sapir, has been speakers to a non-trivial extent? the question of refinements and (P. Kay & W. Kempton, "What is the possibly extensions of natural Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis?", American language that foster international Anthropologist, vol 86, No. 1, scientific communication. In his March 1984.) analysis, language-particular Considering the complexities of characteristics due to the prior research efforts, our reduction system (extended morpho- primary experiment was simple: phonemics) of one language or Present three color chips (call another are partitioned from them A, B, C) to speakers of two operator-argument structures that languages, such that colors A and `carry' information, which are B are slightly more different in remarkably uniform from one lan- terms of (universal) human visual guage to another. This uniformity discriminability, whereas B and C becomes very close indeed in the have a linguistic boundary grammar of a science sub-language, separating them in one language where classifications and (English) but not the other selection restrictions are much (Tarahumara, a Uto-Aztecan lan- more closely constrained than in guage). As noted earlier, the other domains. But even in English speakers chose C as most nontechnical domains Harris has a different, whereas the Tarahumara great deal to say about linguistic chose A or split evenly (there universals6, and about the were actually eight chips and four distinctions between what is sets of relevant triads). universal in language and culture I'll add a couple of points of and what is idiosyncratic and interest that were either buried therefore pertinent to the Whorf- in that article, or have not Sapir Hypothesis. appeared in print. First, as the __________________________________ speaker of a language subject to ________ this perceptual effect, I would like to report that it is [One of the researchers on color dramatic, even shocking. I terms mentioned above then posted administered the tests to some additional notes on his informants in Chihuahua. I was so research:] bewildered by their responses that I had trouble continuing the first Willett Kempton few tests, and I had no idea <[email protected]>: whether or not they were answering randomly. In subsequent analysis I'm a coauthor of the Kay and it was clear that they were Kempton study discussed in several answering exactly as would be pre- earlier messages. (I don't follow dicted by human visual discrim- this newsgroup regularly, but a inability, but quite unlike the colleague passed on the thread.) English informants. As pointed out earlier, from the An informal, and unreported, tangled cluster of hypotheses check of our results was more referred to as the Sapir-Whorf subjective: I showed some of the crucial triads to other English ____________________ speakers, including some who had 6See e.g. Language and Information major commitments in print to not (Columbia 1989) and A Theory of finding Whorfian effects for color Language and Information (Oxford, (several of the latter type of 1990), which is a more informants were available on the philosophical companion volume to Berkeley campus, where Kay and I A Grammar of English on were). All reported seeing the Mathematical Principles (Wiley 1982). 52 same effects. We tried various powerful conversion experience games with each other and unlike anything I've experienced ourselves like "We know English in my scientific career. Perhaps calls these two green and that one this all just goes to affirm blue, but just looking it them, Seguin's earlier quote, as which one LOOKS most different?" applying to us as both natives and No way, the blue one was REALLY a as theorists: LOT more different. Again, the Tarahumara, lacking a lexical "We have met the natives whose boundary among these colors, language filters the world - and picked "correctly" with ease and they are us." in overwhelming numbers. The article includes the Munsell chip __________________________________ numbers, so anyone can look them up and try this on themselves. Some of the triads which crossed [One linguist on Linguist List hue and brightness were truly added comments to those of Bruce unbelievable, as it was Nevin, specifically noting that perceptually OBVIOUS to us English Sapir and Whorf did not speakers which one was the most necessarily believe in the 'Sapir- different, yet all the visual Whorf Hypothesis'. As noted in discriminability data were against JL16, Alexis Manaster-Ramer has us. (The article did not mention become interested in potential the hue/brightness crossovers for linguistics research applications the sake of simplifying the for Lojban. This interest derived argument in print.) in part as a result of these dis- Our second experiment, like the cussions.] original visual discrimination experiments, showed only two chips Alexis Manaster-Ramer writes at a time. We additionally made <[email protected] it difficult to use the lexical E.EDU>: categories. And we got visual In several recent messages there discrimination-based results, even are references to Whorf or Sapir from English speakers. So there and Whorf together as having are ways to overcome our lin- originated the idea of "human guistic blinders. (Which we knew thinking patterns being relative already, or the original visual to the inventory of the available discriminability work could not language system" (to quote one have been done in the first contributor). However, like the place.) I don't feel that the story of the Eskimo words for differences across these tasks was snow, this story about Whorf and adequately explored, and represent Sapir is not factually correct. a golden opportunity for a First of all, it was Sapir who research project or thesis. fought against such simplistic I didn't expect to find this. language-thought claims of earlier The experiment was a minor piggy- scholars such as Uhlenbeck (one of back on another project. I the guys who claimed that certain believed the literature and the "primitive" folks don't have the distinguished scientists who told same perception of action as we do me in advance that we wouldn't because they speak ergative lan- find anything interesting. The guages and that some of them also experiment was going to be dropped have trouble distinguishing from the field research, saved by between themselves and their body a conversation at a wine party parts because they speak languages with a "naive" sociologist (Paul in which possessors of subjects or Attewell) who had read Whorf but objects are sometimes treated as not the later refutations. subjects and objects). A simple experiment, clear data, Second, it is true that Whorf and seeing the Whorfian effect took for granted (as did almost with our own eyes: It was a everybody else at the time) the 53 idea that the structure of a in fact to support the Un-Sapir- language can be taken literally as Whorf hypothesis. However, it giving the underlying ontology should be noted that these results (not that it causes it, mind you, do NOT show a causal relation but that it does reveal it). We going from language to cognition. know for example that Whorf was Indeed, the often-noted fact that much impressed with the claims (I color terminologies seem to become forget whose at the moment) that more and more complex as the Chinese has no relative clauses, speakers' material culture becomes only things that were rendered as more and more complex would argue Jack build-ish house (i.e., the for precisely the opposite caus- house that Jack built). ality: People find they need to Third, all of Whorf's claims distinguish more colors because of about Hopi are quite explicitly of material, nonlinguistic reasons, this same variety: He does not and then devise the necessary assert that the structure of the linguistic means to formalize the language causes the world view, distinctions. merely that it reveals it. He I would also like to address also does not claim this briefly the question of a connection between the ontology connection with Humboldt. As I and the language to be a new idea. noted in my first message on the He presupposes it. That is a big subject of Whorf, Whorf (like most difference, of course, because of his contemporaries) PRESUPPOSED Whorf is often accused of claiming the existence of a connection be- such a connection without giving tween language and cognition, a any independent evidence about the connection which Humboldt was one ontology. But in fact he did not of the first (if not the first) to make any such claims, he merely make. The issue is very simple, assumed that there was such a really. Before Humboldt and connection because everybody others like him, the standard way around him assumed it also. His of describing languages was in contribution (as he saw it) was terms of how they would be glossed entirely different: it was to in some Western metalanguage like show that the way people view Latin or Spanish. This is why time, events, quantities, etc., people were perfectly happy to can be culture- and hence lan- describe ergative constructions guage-specific. (in e.g. Greenlandic) or "active" What I find particularly ones (e.g., in Huron and Guarani, surprising about the need to re- see Mithun's recent Language ar- iterate all this is that the ticle) without noticing anything relevant writings of Whorf's are odd. They would just say that the all reprinted in a widely subject and the verb had different available collection, and that forms in transitive as opposed to Sapir's writings are hardly intransitive constructions. obscure either. People like Humboldt came up with the revolutionary idea of de- _____________________________ scribing languages in their own terms, which meant that the superficial patterns of each lan- At another point, Alexis also guage had to be taken at face wrote: value. Hence, Humboldt's argument that I am very grateful to those who Malayo-Polynesian verbs are really have written in to note that the nouns, for example. Or later so-called Sapir-Whorf hypothesis arguments by various people that was NOT what Whorf (or a fortiori ergatives are really passives (or Sapir) maintained. And also to other things). But that then made those who have written in it imperative to explain why reminding us of the results, such exotic peoples say things that we the Berlin and Kay ones, that seem 54 would not, e.g., why do they use a mistaken one" and he cites some "nouns" instead of verbs or arguments. "passives" instead of actives. Thus, I believe that Whorf made And the explanation, of course, a clear distinction between was that they THINK differently culture (behavior) and language, from us as well. Whorf, like but he did not make such a almost all his contemporaries, was distinction between language and steeped in this way of thinking, thought. As I said before, he but certainly did not originate presupposed as did almost everyone it. As I noted before, his point else at the time that if people to show just HOW EXOTIC languages speak a certain way then that could get, and this he tried to do reflects the way they think. He by discussing the Hopi treatment took it for granted for example of time, events, and quantities. that if the Hopis pluralize the __________________________ word for cloud (oomaw) the way that they normally pluralize Alexis provided evidence for his animate nouns, then they must claims in the following: think of the clouds as animate. Of course, this view is naive, Since many of the readers of as Joseph Greenberg pointed out in LINGUIST are from Missouri, I the fifties, since languages make thought I would provide some all sorts of arbitrary evidence for my recent assertions distinctions (or fail arbitrarily that Whorf's position has been to make them in certain widely misunderstood. environments) without any apparent In "The relation of habitual conceptual consequences. thought and behavior to language", Essentially, I think the Whorf says among other things: connection works one way, namely, if a language makes a distinction "That portion of the whole which cannot be described in investigation here to be re- purely structural terms, then we ported may be summed up in two must ascribe to the speakers the questions: (1) Are our concepts ability to perceive or imagine or of 'time', 'space', and 'matter' whatever the corresponding given in substantially the same distinction in the world. Thus, form by experience to all men, when Greenberg points out that or are they in part conditioned nothing important hinges on the by the structure of particular fact that the French use an languages? (2) Are there trace- ordinal in Napoleon Premier but a able affinities between (a) cardinal in Napolean Deux, that's cultural and behavioral norms OK, because the choice here can be and (b) large-scale linguistic made w/o reference to the world. patterns? (I should be the last The rule is purely linguistic. to pretend that there is And, of course, this could be the anything so definite as "a case with the Hopi word for cloud correlation" between culture and and its plural. language, and especially between On the other hand, if we find ethnological rubrics such as that speakers of Polish 'agricultural, hunting', etc., systematically use a different and linguistic ones like genitive ending for place-names in 'inflected', 'synthetic', or Poland (and other Slavic 'isolating'." countries) than they do for other place-names, and do so PRO- In a footnote on the same page DUCTIVELY, then it IS reasonable (p. 139 of the Language, Thought, to conclude that they are capable and Reality book), he says em- of a conceptual distinction phatically that "The idea of between Poland (or Slavdom) and "correlation" between language and the rest of the world. culture, in the generally accepted sense of correlation, is certainly 55 The distinction between these was quite typical for the time two kinds of cases is what seems (though not for the 17 or the 18th not to have been entirely clear to century). Whorf, and that, as far as I can _________________________________ see, is where he came to sometimes came to grief. Finally Alexis wrote, in a fourth It is also quite clear that he posting: was not claiming any originality about the relation of language and Setting aside for the moment the thought per se, rather he was question of why so many people trying to show just how different continue to insist on attributing the language/thought of one to Whorf and Sapir views they did culture could be from that of an- not hold (or at least did not ex- other in the case of such basic press), I would like to say ideas as that of time, although he something about the results which points out (p 158) that there is are claimed to support the not a comparable difference be- hypothesis that language and non- tween Hopi and Standard Average linguistic behavior (behavior, for European regarding space. short) exhibit certain close As to culture, Whorf was connections (which people seem to faithfully following Sapir in want to interpret as involving claiming that there is no more causality going from language to than an "affinity" between behavior). language and culture, but no (1) Even if we find certain "correlations or diagnostic cor- correlations between language respondences" (p 159). For, as I structure and patterns of noted earlier, Sapir was one of behavior, this does NOT (as I the staunchest critics of the late think I noted earlier) indicate 19th century and early 20th the direction of causality (as century linguists who propounded indeed Whorf himself noted at one such theories as the "passivity" point). The color terminology of peoples whose languages use the business shows, if anything, that ergative constructions, and such the complexity of a color like drivel. terminology seems to depend on the Incidentally, much of what I complexity of the culture, there have said about Whorf's intent in being, for example, no industrial bringing the Hopi vs. the SAE or post-industrial cultures whose treatment of time and matter can languages use two or three color also be said about Sapir's work on terms. There has also been specu- the psychological reality of lation about the fact that the phonemes. Today, we emphasize the lateness of terms for 'blue' may psychological reality part, but be connected with the relative actually in his time, the novelty scarcity of blue objects (other was the phoneme. Claims about than the ubiquitous sky) in psychological reality about in the nature. second half of the 19th century This would suggest very strongly and later (and we find them in all that the linguistic pattern comes of Sapir's as well as Bloomfield's second, as a reflection of a cul- early writings). The idea of the ture's need to make certain psychological vs. the grammatical distinctions. subject after all originated in (2) All the studies that claim that period. And, to take one to show a connection between example our of thousands, when language and behavior that I have Platt wrote in the 1870's that the seen mentioned seem to deal with Urdu speakers perceive certain two or at any rate a small number constructions in their language as of languages, e.g., Tarahumara and active even though they look English. Likewise, I have seen passive (these are, of course, studies by Alexander Guiora on ergatives again!), he was Hebrew and English and other such expressing himself in a way which small sets, which I don't think 56 have been cited on LINGUIST so From this end of your postings, far. Yet, since the claim being I'd say that you've made your case tested is correlation between that the two did not believe in linguistic structure and nonlin- 'their' hypothesis, at least guistic behavior, the relevant insofar as it is generally population is languages (not understood by others. individual speakers), and you cannot seriously talk about (which people seem to want to correlations for populations of interpret as involving causality two (or three or whatever small going from language to number is involved). What we behavior). require is a study involving a dozen or a hundred languages that I agree that this is not have the Tarahumara color system evidenced in the writings. I note and a dozen or a hundred that have by the way that Jim Brown, who the English one before we can say invented Loglan, also cites F. S. anything at all about correlations C. Northrop (1946) The Meeting of and things. East and West as proposing a Having said this, I would cultural effect of language inde- predict that we will find such pendently of the presumed correlations but I would also interpretation of S and W, but he predict that at least some of them never cites quotes. I also have will turn out to have the opposite read a book in the 80s, The causality from that suggested (or Alphabet Effect, by a follower of a more complex one than either of McLuhan, that claims cultural ef- the simple unidirectional ones). fects from orthography. Certainly Is there anybody out there who the concept "the medium is the would like to collaborate on message" significantly underlies putting together such a mass most interpretations of the SWH. cross-linguistic study? Perhaps it should be call the SWMcH %^). _______________________ I do not know where John Carroll fits in the historical setting of the SWH, whether he knew Whorf or Lojbab responded privately to Sapir, etc. Carroll WAS involved Alexis's last message with the in Jim Brown's formulation of Log- following: lan throughout the 60s and 70s, and presumably found Brown's You write: assertions to not be inconsistent with his own writings on SWH. So Setting aside for the moment the I would ask you whether you question of why so many people believe that Carroll has said continue to insist on anything (presumably in his attributing to Whorf and Sapir comments on the collection of views they did not hold (or at Whorf's essays or elsewhere) that least did not express) ... misinterprets those writings? Although he is retired, I could Note that when we talk about the ask Carroll to respond. It seems Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis in Lojban that the issue is ripe for such writings, we are using the common discussion. name for the hypothesis, not in particular attributing the (1) Even if we find certain formulation of that hypothesis correlations between language that we use to either Sapir or structure and patterns of Whorf. That formulation is of behavior, this does NOT (as I course more complex than simple think I noted earlier) indicate 'cultural relativism', and there the direction of causality (as seems to be no other good name, indeed Whorf himself noted at much less one that is known to one point). people. 57 Agreed. One reason we are direction of response should be working very hard on Lojban before easy to measure. proposing a specific test is that we want to be able to predict a Is there anybody out there who causal effect of language that is would like to collaborate on clearly not part of the cultural putting together such a mass milieu. The drastic differences cross-linguistic study? between Lojban and natural languages make it more likely that I obviously would be interested we can identify a way to determine (especially if funding can be both a relation and a causal obtained) but note that I can't effect, if one exists. This may contribute much in understanding then tell us how to look for con- of the other languages. I also firming data in the natural lan- would like to see such a study, guages. even if it must include colors due to the popular associations of The color terminology business colors with SWH, find one or two shows, if anything, that the other areas of language that are complexity of a color more believably independent of terminology seems to depend on biology. I've heard that kinship the complexity of the culture, terms is another area of com- there being, for example, no parison that might be considered. industrial or post-industrial My own preference would be an cultures whose languages use two analysis of words for emotions, or three color terms. There has emotional expressions, and also been speculation about the linguistic and para-linguistic fact that the lateness of terms ways of expressing emotions, as for 'blue' may be connected with well as perhaps on time and the relative scarcity of blue spatial relations (e.g. do objects (other than the ubiq- languages with 2 distinctions of uitous sky) in nature. distance in demonstratives this/- that have any correlations in I think that color terminology culture not found in those having is the worst place to look for a three this/that/that yonder?) SW effect, since it seems patently obvious that color recognition is Essentially, I think the going to be dominated by the basic connection works one way, biological process of recognizing namely, if a language makes a color which would mask more subtle distinction which cannot be linguistic effects. Indeed, if described in purely structural one presumes that biology was terms, then we must ascribe to directed by evolutionary the speakers the ability to requirements, there may be some perceive or imagine or whatever environmental reason that we are the corresponding distinction in not aware of that causes certain the world. Thus, when Greenberg colors to seem more basic or points out that nothing important than others. important hinges on the fact that the French use an ordinal This would suggest very strongly in Napoleon Premier but a that the linguistic pattern cardinal in Napolean Deux, comes second, as a reflection of that's OK, because the choice a culture's need to make certain here can be made w/o reference distinctions. to the world. The rule is purely linguistic. And, of I agree that this also occurs in course, this could be the case language, and in constructing new with the Hopi word for cloud and artificial languages, especially a its plural. On the other hand, language like Lojban where nonce if we find that speakers of new word creation is easy and Polish systematically use a favored, the scope of this 58 different genitive ending for mean the only contribution of his) place-names in Poland (and other I know on this subject). Let me Slavic countries) than they do reemphasize: Whorf and Sapir did for other place-names, and do so NOT argue for a correlation productively, then it is between linguistic and reasonable to conclude that they nonlinguistic behavior (although are capable of a conceptual they saw connections) and they distinction between Poland (or simply did not see the question of Slavdom) and the rest of the a correlation between language and world. thought in the way that we do. This is NOT to say that, like in This sounds like you would see the case of language and non- value in finding out what types of linguistic behavior, they held productive distinctions are made there was no correlation. Rather, in an artificial language where they did not see clearly that structure and concept are strongly there was anything to correlate, separated and it is relatively since they assumed that language easy to recognize native language and thought go hand-in-hand. And reflections (pollutions?) because this they almost certainly did of the drastic structural differ- because the same idea was ences. The obvious question is generally accepted at the time. where you would look for such So, I would not say that Sapir and distinctions. Whorf did not believe in the Lojban is only one language, but Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Rather perhaps we might detect they did not consider it a correlations between native hypothesis. language features and con- ______________________________ ceptualization in Lojban when those people learn Lojban. Do [Note: We will endeavor to pass people with AN structures lose along to the respective authors that pattern in a language where any comments on the above the AN distinction is blurred (I discussions that readers may send find myself in Lojban often ex- us.] pressing things in the form of ______________________________ house-big, as well as big-house, but would not presume to try to During the course of the find any correlations yet?) My discussion of the Sapir-Whorf wife and I have devised several Discussion, several references possible experiments related to were mentioned, which can be added this concept, but have long fig- to bibliographies on Sapir-Whorf, ured that it will be a while such as those which have appeared before there's an opportunity to in previous issues of ju'i even do a detailed plan, much less lobypli. I've collected these conduct the experiments. together, sometimes including the comments of the person who __________________________________ mentioned the work: __________ John Lucy ("Whorf's view of the linguistic mediation of thought," Alexis responded: in Semiotic Mediation, ed. by Elizabeth Mertz & Richard Thank you for your extensive and Parmentier, Academic P, 1985). thoughtful responses. ... I would love to be in touch with Carroll. Alan Rumsey's (1990) paper, He certainly knew Whorf, but is "Wording, Meaning, and Linguistic not a linguist. How he interprets Ideology," American Anthropologist Whorf is not always clear from his 92:346-361, for an excellent intro to Whorf's selected writings discussion of where Whorfianism (which is his only contribution (I works. 59 There's a nice discussion by Garro, Linda. 1986. Language, Roger Brown of the Brown & memory, and focality: A Lenneberg work in his old book reexamination. American Words & Things, in 2 different Anthropologist 88:128-136. chapters separated by another chapter. There is one article I Another attempt at an empirical know of that provides some test is Alfred Bloom's book The evidence for the strong version of Linguistic Shaping of Thought. He the hypothesis, by Carroll & found that Chinese speakers had Casagrande on object more difficulty comprehending a classification by Navaho vs. text full of counterfactual Boston suburban kids. It's in an conditionals than English early psycholinguistics anthology speakers, and attributed this to (Saporta's??) the lack of explicit coding of counterfactuals in Chinese. Berlin & Kay's (1969) study of However, Terry Au and Lisa Garbern color-term universals was indeed a Liu in Cognition (1985?) real breakthrough, although I also replicated the experiment trying believe again that it attacked to avoid cultural bias, and found what Whorf did not maintain, but no significant difference. rather what was imputed to Whorf. However, there has been work since A more recent reference on Whorf then which has examined Berlin & and color terms is a paper by Paul Kay (1969) closely, and has come Kay and Willet Kempton called What up with some pretty damning is the Sapir Whorf hypothesis? in evaluations. One of the main American Anthropologist vol. 86, problems with the study is the 1984. inaccurate data that it used (but then again Whorf has been shown to Brown, R. L. (1967). Wilhelm Von have misunderstood the structure Humboldt's Conception of of Hopi), and the criteria used in Linguistic Relativity. The Hague: determining when a color term is Mouton. basic and when it's not, and when a color is focal or not. Chapter Rheingold, H. (1988). They Have 4 of Geoffrey Sampson's (1980) A Word For It, Los Angeles: Jeremy School of Linguistics, (Stanford P. Tarcher, Inc. University Press) is one reference that comes to mind. Saporta, S. (1960) (Editor) There are also pretty careful Psycholinguistics : A book or experimental studies on the readings, Holt Rinehart. recognition of and memory for color terms which have come out in Newcombe, etc. ?? (1958??) favor of both Whorfian relativism (Editors) Readings in Social and determinism. See: Psychology. Lucy, John and Richard Shweder. 1979. Whorf and his critics: Vygotsky, Language and Thought Linguistic and nonlinguistic influences on color memory. Kuhn, T. (1960?), Structure of American Anthropologist 81:581- Scientific Revolutions (2nd 615. Edit.). Lucy, John and Richard Shweder. 1988. The effect of incidental Aarsleff, H. (1982). From Locke conversation on memory for focal to Saussure. Minneapolis: colors. American Anthropologist University of Minnesota Press. 81:923-931. The first paper was critiqued by G. Pullam's book, The Great Linda Garro (reference below), and Eskimo Vocabulary Hoax, essays by the second paper is an answer to Sir William Jones and by W. D. Garro: Whitney, Carter and Nash's Seeing Through Language, Coupland's 60 Styles of Discourse, and Finnish Kalevala, the sagas of the Freeborn's Varieties of English, Nordic nations, and the myths of and works by philosophers such as the Greeks, were not written by Austin, Searle, Grice, and Stal- one person at one time. (Indeed, naker. these stories and poems were not originally written, but probably Helmut Gipper, whose office transmitted for centuries as oral sported an oversized poster of tradition.) Instead, these are Einstein formulated an explicit collections of stories with a link between the principle of more-or-less common context. relativity in theoretical physics But as with Chaucer and and a similar principle in Shakespeare, these collections are linguistics (Helmut Gipper, Gibt more than stories; they are among es ein sprachliches Rela- the oldest works in their tivitaetsprinzip?: Untersuchungen respective languages and hence zur Sapir-Whorf-Hypothese, Fischer serve to define the earliest 1972). memory for most speakers of the language: of how the language was The Lojban Kalevala Project at its earliest known formation. As a modern example of how A most exciting project has collective authorship in a common commenced, starting at the first context can work, the successful LogFest this year, crystallizing science fiction/fantasy series at the second one, and evolving Wild Cards edited by George R. R. thereafter on Lojban List. Martin, shows how people can write This project is an attempt to such stories using each other's develop a work of coherent characters as well as a common original Lojban literature, one context (later volumes of the which would have the formative and series show how editing can weave perhaps normative effects on the stories written by many indi- language and its style that viduals into a seamless novel various epic works have had on the which bears the stylistic elements languages that they were written of the contributors, but in a way in. where you cannot clearly tell what For several years, I've used a pieces were written by which reference to Chaucer and his authors). Canterbury Tales in describing the Lojban would be better off with context for such a project such a body of stories (indeed it (Chaucer's work effectively would become, in a sense, alive, defined the change from the era of at that point), and would be 'Old English' to what is now better served by having the called 'Middle English), though stories written by a collective I've also mentioned Shakespeare authorship composed of people from (whose plays similarly gave birth as broad a cultural spectrum as to Modern English) in the same possible. context. At the August LogFest, a concept These might serve as good for such a project was developed, exemplars of the goal of such a along with a basis or methodology project: to make the Lojban for common authorship. Lojbab language come 'alive', but it is assembled the concept into a unlikely and probably undesirable proposal, and posted it to Lojban for one single author in one List, getting several people to single work to set the norms for express active interest. Lojban. We are trying to avoid The project since has taken off embedding the ideas of only one on its own, though possibly in person or of only one culture as some ways changing from what was the basis of Lojban. originally envisioned at LogFest. Thus, when I spotted a better Lojbab has pretty much stayed out exemplar, I started using it. The of the discussion since then, except to try to point out the in- 61 terests of people who had no - First, Veijo Vilva, a Finnish access to the computer networks, Lojbanist who has taken a and hence could not defend their leadership role in the project, own interests. This must be a briefly summarizes what he sees project of the community, and not the project to be, its current his project. status, and where he thinks it The people discussing the should go in the future. project, have chosen to use more - Then follows a longer prosaic names that reflect the compendium, assembled by Veijo specifics of the effort, rather (with some additions by Lojbab), than the paradigmatic goals. We that embodies the essential will let the project continue with discussions that have taken place the several names it has acquired, in the last several months. remembering the multi-authored, - Then follows the first multi-faceted, multi-cultural submissions for a collection of spirit in which it is envisioned. English language texts written by We want all of you who might be people to serve as descriptions of interested in this project to the common context for the speak up. Now! You do not need writings of the project. These to be a original, creative, writer may serve as examples of what we'd - another hallmark of these like to see from people proposing ancient collections is that many additional descriptions of of their stories are retellings of characters or setting (though earlier legends and tales, please don't feel that you have to sometimes of a different culture match the sometimes elaborate (examples: some scholars think style of these writings). that the Bible story of Noah and - Mingled with the English texts the flood is a retelling of an (in the order in which they were earlier story, that of Gilgamesh, originally posted, since some of Shakespeare's Julius Caesar was the stories rely on 'earlier' obviously built on the legends texts for information, or react to that the Romans evolved about that things mentioned in the earlier leader, and most of his other texts) are the most recent plays had plots plagiarized from revisions of all Lojban writings other plays of the Middle Ages - written by people in conjunction plays since forgotten because they with this phase of the project. did not have the literary power Some of these writings have been and influence of Shakespeare.) attempts to help develop the But you don't need to be a common context in Lojban rather Shakespeare either in quality or than in English, some experiments in volume of work, in order to in trying to write within the make a contribution. You just context as it is known, and of need to do the best you can on a course, all are attempts by the piece of the whole - a piece whose authors to improve their own size and nature you can determine, Lojban abilities in the best way: whether it be a paragraph, a poem, by writing in the language. a page, or a longer work. Indeed, Currently the goal is to define there is some room for the common context, and we want as contribution from people who have- many inputs as possible for this. n't yet learned Lojban, in As noted in the longer contributing ideas for the common discussions, we are looking for setting. (But we hope that most text (in English, or in Lojban people who participate will do so with English translation for those with the intention of eventually who can't easily read Lojban text writing some Lojban text in yet) that a) further elaborates contribution to the project.) the common setting of the stories, The following several pages a 'coffeehouse' that will be define the state the project has defined with rich enough detail reached in the last few months. that people can tie their stories into the common context by 62 referencing these hooks, and b) to quarterly rate). This may make define the major common characters the proposal moot, or may cause it that can be used (so long as non- to be a longer-term milestone that destructively and consistently will occur only when the Lojban with the provided details) by any community is large enough that writer who wants to contribute. people write enough text to We need you to act immediately support a separate journal, and and send us your ideas (on paper, enough people are interested in diskette, or via email). JL18 reading such text to make a (current deadline March 5) will journal economically viable. contain as many additional Where this project goes after writings and character JL19 is up to the community. A descriptions, in either language, separate publication may be spun as we can fit. We will hopefully off. Someone may choose to try to have more character descriptions edit the best writings into a submitted than we intend to actual publishable book. Or ... - well, use, in which case there will be a you decide! period of comment and voting until Here's Veijo. JL19 (current deadline June 5). (Additional ideas and proposals may also be submitted for this The Purpose of The Ckafybarja issue, but they will be at a Project handicap in any voting.) Hopefully by the time JL19 comes The purpose of the project is to out with the results of this encourage people to create voting, the dictionary will have original Lojban stories which have been published, and people will the following common features: have a common language definition - as already stated the stories with which do begin writing. The are original Lojban stories, not extra 6 months and the large translations from other languages; volume of Lojban writings that - they are closely connected will hopefully be appearing will with a coffeehouse which is also help more people learn of described in detail in a set of enough of the language to be English documentation available to willing to try to write in the all; language. - the stories either take place There is a proposal for a or are told in the Cafe. separate publication to contain only Lojban writings. As this The proposed Cafe Newsletter proposal evolved, it grew away would widen the scope of material from the concept of the Kalevala eligible for publication and make project, expanding to be a journal it easier for the beginning Lojban of in-Lojban writing. The merits writers to produce something of this proposal are also for the worthwhile. community to decide, but I have taken this proposal more History immediately to be a criticism of the excessive backlog in getting The project has gone through Lojban text printed in ju'i loby- several stages during the last few pli, the relative infrequency of months. There were some ju'i lobypli, and perhaps a sense preliminary postings concerning that text appearing in ju'i the lack of Lojban text - lobypli represents an over- especially original text, not centralized attitude of what the translations from other languages. language should be like. It was noted that actually very I have thus taken action to few people did produce Lojban text change JL's editorial policy to or use Lojban in communicating reflect these implied criticisms with other Lojbanists. The ideas (as well as get its publication culminating in the project were frequency up to the intended formulated during the summer 63 LogFests and the ensuing limbo and some are waiting comment discussions on the net. from the non-netters. The 'Kalevala' was quite soon The Lojban Canterbury Tales dropped from the name of the project as there was no actual The first [1992] LogFest reason for the reference. I formulated the idea of encouraging proposed the name 'la jbotur' people to write original Lojban instead but it was never adopted stories with some common features. by anybody else. The name of the The basic idea was that there Cafe was 'la *jbolaz' for a while would be a place were people would but this has turned out to be an gather to tell stories to each invalid form [hence marked with an other like in the original asterisk whenever it occurs Canterbury Tales or in The herein]. Decameron. The Finnish national epic Kalevala was also mentioned Controversies as a possible source of ideas and there were some discussions When the Cafe Project proposal concerning the possibilities. The (The Lojban Kalevala Project) was parts of these conversations which posted on the net there was some affected the development of the disagreement concerning various Project are included in the aspects of the plan. The main Papers. The discussions were at a reason for this was the fact that very general level and nothing none of the most active netters concrete was done at this stage. had participated in the initial The name 'Kalevala' was used in formulation. Some of the ideas the headers of most of the presented on the net contradicted postings which gave rise to the the original plan so some non- first name of the project proper. netters might feel that the very active netters were trying to The Lojban Kalevala Project -> dominate. The views of the The Ckafybarja Project netters (or of the most vocal of them) are being presented to non- At the second LogFest the Cafe netters in JL17; there has been no idea was adopted and also the idea response yet. The conversation on of having a detailed description the net has quieted down. of the locale and the personnel. The most controversial question This description would be in was the characterization of the English in order to be readily Cafe personnel - especially the accessible to everybody. It would proposed national heterogeneity. serve two main purposes: The main views presented are 1) the stories by various included in the 'Condensed Papers' writers would obviously describe [found afterwards] and I am not the same Cafe; going to reiterate them here. As 2) the less creative writers far as I can see this question is would be able to concentrate on still open - in all the others at the plot instead of also having to least some kind of a consensus was invent the settings. achieved. Three different settings were described but description #2 was Basic Settings the favourite already before the plan was posted and there was A more detailed description of actually no further discussion on the settings is included in the the net. Condensed Papers. There were differences of The Cafe - A small cafe in rural opinion concerning various aspects surroundings (not visible from the of the description. Most of these inside). Predominantly Lojbanic have been resolved but some are in clientele gathers there to tell stories. Some netters have already arrived. Nick advises to 64 avoid interaction for the time These stories have resulted in a being (cf. Condensed Papers) very active conversation on the The Personnel - Multinational net concerning various linguistic personnel, Chinese manager and 5 aspects - grammar, semantics, and others representing the source pragmatics. One very challenging languages of Lojban. Detailed task for the future is the characterization isn't available collection, editing and yet so avoid adding details in the publication of the accumulating stories. All the views presented theoretical material so that the on the net concerning the results of these conversations can characterization ought to be be used by the whole Lojban commu- studied most carefully by all nity. potential writers. We need well thought-out characterizations The Newsletter Proposal which take into account the views presented by Ivan and others Nick Nicholas posted a proposal concerning the difficulty of real- concerning a Cafe Newsletter which istically portraying national would publish all kinds of Lojban characteristics and the need to text connected with the Cafe. The have recognizably non-American proposal is included in the characters as desired by Lojbab Condensed Papers. and some non-netters. Mark The newsletter would actually pointed out that the characters widen the scope of the Lojban must be such that later writers texts compared to the original can live with them. They are plan. The original plan called basically background characters for stories about the Cafe or but writers may want to use them stories told at the Cafe - the in their stories. Others may Newsletter would accept all kinds choose to ignore them in which of original Lojban text connected case the characterizations don't with the Cafe, e.g. small studies really matter very much. like my 'etudes' would be eligible for publication. This would be Accumulated Material the first purely Lojban journal - all the theoretical material with English Descriptions - There English explanations and glosses isn't very much new descriptive would be published in ju'i lobypli material as the project hasn't as would selected Lojban writings actually started yet - in spite of not connected with the Cafe. the posting of the first The main purpose of the preparatory Lojban texts. Nick Newsletter would be to encourage Nicholas has added detail to the and help beginning writers. The original Description #2 of the second raison d'etre would be to locale, David Bowen has described show that we have advanced so far a Cafe manager, and I (Veijo) have that Lojban can be used without proposed a Cafe worker. English glosses. Perhaps the most Lojban Text - Altogether 6 advanced stories wouldn't be Lojban stories have been posted - accessible to everybody but there a proper story by Mark Shoulson, a would probably be a much greater longish 'rant' by Nick Nicholas, 2 number of easy and intermediate short 'etudes' by Veijo Vilva and articles. I also think that a 'rant' and a short tale by Iain having the stories without English Alexander. [A 7th piece, a 3-part glosses would be advantageous as character sketch by Nick, was the structure of Lojban - posted but Nick has indicated that especially 'Lojbanic' Lojban - is he intends to substantially so different that providing an rewrite it], Only the stories by English version may actually Mark and Iain contain storytelling hinder understanding or at least along the lines indicated in the slow down the learning. plan, the others are more preparatory. To would-be writers 65 1. Start writing NOW! sentence. Lojban IS different. A 2. Don't set goals that are too tanru, a lujvo, a sumti with ambitious. Remember that the attachments, a "ko" at a published stories do not set a unaccustomed position may all be standard which you ought to match. very difficult to express Your first stories can be very naturally in English. Just accept short and use simple sentences. it. Utilize it. As an example, my first attempt, 10. Start writing. after minor corrections, may be found below [page 46]. The Condensed Papers 3. Start with simple things, do experiments with the language. This is a record of the Try to avoid formulating the ideas Development of the Ckafybarja in English - otherwise you may Project, the Main Ideas, the have difficulties with Conversations and Differences of astonishingly simple expressions. Opinion concerning the 4. You may find to your Characterization of the Cafe Per- surprise that it is often actually sonnel. easier to express something in This is not a straight record of Lojban because you don't have to the conversations on the net. I cope with the relatively free have deleted a lot of material - structure of English. Just drop either redundant or not essential the words to the proper slots and for the project at the present the unambiguous grammar of Lojban stage. I have also taken the takes care of the rest. liberty of making some minor 5. Don't force yourself to changes to the text following the invent a story - it doesn't work. deletions so that the resulting The story either comes or not. joints are more natural. Pick up something and start Sometimes only first names writing about it - but do it now. appear in identifying comments. 6. The story isn't very Full names for these people are important at this stage. It may Veijo Vilva, Nick Nicholas (alias be quite banal or even non- la nitcion.), Iain Alexander, existent - if you find a Lojbanic Lojbab (Bob LeChevalier), Colin way of expressing something, write Fine, Mark Shoulson, Nora LeCheva- it down. lier, Andrew Smith, Ivan 7. There is no stylistic Derzhanski. We've tried to spell tradition, you are completely free everyone else's name out in full. - within the dictates of the grammar, of course. If you end up __________________________________ expressing your thoughts in a way which doesn't resemble anything A. Lojbab's original Lojban you ever read, it's quite alright. Canterbury Tales proposal 8. Don't be afraid of simple sentences. Lojban IS different. Lojbab: This LogFest was a fun Writing a complex sentence which gathering, and not one for work. doesn't fall apart doesn't prove Nothing really accomplished except you know Lojban well - it is just to teach people a bit more of the a trivial exercise. Don't write a language, use it a little, and sentence which you can't readily socialize, learning more about understand yourself - even next each other. One topic of week. You ought to be able to discussion was how to get more understand your sentences without people doing something with the parsing/analyzing/translating - at language. The topic segued into least the structure even if you literature, original Lojban lit- don't remember all the words you erature. One long thought-about had to pick from the word lists. idea that was discussed again was 9. It doesn't matter if you an interactive role playing can't find a natural English way project of the type often con- of expressing the idea of a ducted at science fiction 66 conventions, based on a Lojban-re- One rule - if you have a lated scenario. Learning a little specific story idea, whether you Lojban would give actor/players of want to write it or not: don't the scenario an advantage. talk about it in English. The But a better idea surfaced, one stories are to be Lojban stories, that can get more involved. and whatever appeal they have, as The germinal start of English as the first Lojban literature, will a literary language was Chaucer's be emphasized by their not Canterbury Tales, and someone existing in English first. If you mentioned that Italian has a have trouble with the language, similar medieval literary you can ask how-to-say-it landmark, the Decameron. Perhaps questions on Lojban List, or send other languages as well. The messages privately to Nick, Ivan, essence of the Canterbury Tales is Colin, John Cowan, Mark Shoulson, that they are a bunch of 1st or me. person tales, rich and colorful, Less experienced Lojbanists often bawdy. Why not write some- might team up on a story, in which thing similar for Lojban, or at case you can talk privately with least start to do so. We can get each other in whatever language a lot of people involved, who need about your story, or if necessary, only commit to writing a single with one experienced Lojbanist short tale - a page long would be that you interact with from the fine. A couple of the more expert above list. Lojbanists - Nick, Ivan, and Mark, for example, might do some longer Chris Handley: Some points to tales, perhaps about characters remember about both Canterbury that might have a more complex Tales and the Decameron: story. 1) They were written by one One charm of the Canterbury person (and a genius at that); Tales is the variety of per- 2) They were written fairly well sonalities of the characters - we into the flowering of the can achieve that by having many language. authors. Stylistic consistency In my opinion neither of these isn't necessary, since different conditions apply to Lojban at the people have different ways of moment, which should not stop us talking. If you are relatively doing something. Certainly a unskilled, you might want to collection of stories along a choose a less-well educated central theme would be a great character, but even this might not start to the language. be a constraint. Another suggestion would be The question is how to devise a another parlour game. One person scenario around which people can starts off and writes part of a write these short-short stories. story (a para, a sentence, Canterbury Tales takes place where whatever). This is then passed to travellers gather - an inn or bar. the next person in the list to Do we tell tales of the people of continue, and so on. (In the mythical Lojbanistan? Or do we normal version, you stop in mid presume a modern or post-modern sentence, but that may be a tad society, with people much like the difficult). spectrum found in the world today? One possibility proposed would be Lojbab: I think the continued people on a space station, thus story idea is a good one, but you appealing to the SF fans among us need really cooperative people to - an international space station, have it work. We did try it once wherein people like Ivan and Nick with Lojban, but a certain person can bring in tales from other (who shall remain nameless) made a cultures. Some could be tales of point of striving for truly earth, while others could be high strange twists in the story at adventure in space. every opportunity - strange enough that there was no possibility that 67 the result could be interesting People have felt almost no urge to (as opposed to the process - which use Lojban for logical expression, can be interesting in spite of any more than they feel the urge strangeness, or because of it). to use English for it. Usually the ones want to do so use Randall Helzermann: So is symbolic logic. Lojban going to be the first I understand your point, but language in which the "classic there really is no one who would novel" was defined by a committee? write the book, and more Before going to the "great importantly, probably no one who lojbanian novel" why not build a would read it. It seems like the lojbanic tradition from the roots same kind of idealistic project as up? The first thing that should the occasionally proposed Lojban be written in my opinion is a dictionary, written entirely in primer on logical and critical Lojban. Such a book could be thinking. written, I think, but would be an exercise to prove a point and Lojbab: This might be nice, would probably not be very good, but: or much-used. Maybe some day, but 1) people seem to want to write not nearly yet. creatively, and I will encourage But thanks for the compliment. any writing in Lojban for any I'm glad someone thinks I do reason things logically and clear- 2) I don't know anyone competent thinkingly around here zo'o. to write a primer on logical and critical thinking in English, much My main reason for suggesting less in Lojban. Maybe Lojban will the Canterbury Tales approach is lead to the development of such a that we are currently being genius (if the Sapir-Whorf flooded with translations of a Hypothesis is true), but right now variety of materials from other all we have is rather normal languages, but almost no one mostly-English native speakers (except Michael Helsem) has writing non-fluently in a not attempted significant original quite living language. writing in Lojban. Since translation always involves some Randall: What?!? you yourself amount of interlingual compromise must have done an incredible (as we've seen in the phone game), amount of thinking about "logical only original writing in the lan- and critical thinking" when guage will lead to the development designing Lojban, a language of true Lojban stylistics - ostensibly made to encourage such. something near and dear to Nick's How about a tractus on heart, if not others'. elementary logic then? By making the length be at the writers' options, we can get Lojbab: I did surprisingly people like Nick, who could little thinking about "logical and probably write a good, longer critical thinking". Remember that story, but also maybe encourage I didn't design Lojban from Chris, who has never posted longer scratch, but built on the original than words and sentences, to design by JCB. John Parks- contribute something. The Clifford (pc) and others have advantage of having a common contributed significantly to the context for the stories, is that 'logical' aspects of the language, it is possible in such a context and pc is probably the most to tell a little anecdote in as competent in the intersection of little as a paragraph or two that logic and Lojban. As for myself, can form part of the compendium as I nearly flunked logic in college, well as a longer story. and rely on my wife and others when logic issues come up in Lojbab (paraphrased): Those who Lojban, which frankly isn't often. have trouble coming up with plot 68 lines can take stories from the I don't think the way to great mythologies, and use their founding original Lojban liter- plots as the basis for Lojban ature can be found in emulation. stories. There are many little- It takes great literary talent to known such stories. For example, transform an existing story into Veijo, could we use stories from something worthwhile - not a mere the Finnish epic, the Kalevala, as imitation. A literature arises the basis for Lojbanic stories. from an existing cultural and linguistic background and the only Veijo: ... about the thing we have at hand is a half- possibility of using The Kalevala baked language. This is the fact as a starting point for the Lojban we must start from. If we are to Canterbury Tales. It has taken me lay the foundations of a liter- a while to sort things out as I ature we must look at the world - didn't want to give a hasty the language - we have. What is answer. It's been quite a while the world of Lojban like? What since I read Kalevala - and not a sets it apart from the rest? If total edition at that - and I had you take Lojban sans tanru, lujvo to do a quick sampling of it. I and le'avla it presents a also read through a few reviews. remarkably Platonian view of the I feel it's not much use taking an world. The most distinguishing odd plot from Kalevala and trying feature of gismu and many cmavo is to elaborate on that as Kalevala that they describe a very ideal covers the whole spectrum of human world, every word brings out the life and the stories are not very essence, the underlying principle unique. of a class of phenomena. In most One outstanding feature of natural languages the general is Kalevala is, however, the way described in terms which are mythos permeates everything in an either alien or complex, in Lojban almost pantheistic way. The scale the opposite prevails. This makes is continuous from an almost it possible to present a distilled imperceptible presence to view of the surrounding world personified entities - not quite without resorting to unnatural Olympian in power but more on par expressions and also to contrast with the main characters of the the general and the particular in story who themselves cannot always a single utterance or even a be distinguished from the mythos. single bridi. The avoidance of There is also a strong faith in tanru and lujvo can be thought of the power of words - not any as another form of controlled and single, magic ones but prolonged recognizable ellipsis - only the singing which can drive an essential is expressed and the opponent up to his armpits into a particular is suppressed. Other swamp or build a boat, singing of areas where Lojban excels are the real men, not mere boys nor of tense system, the attitudinal and those feeble in body or character. emotional indicators and of course Words do not offer a quick way out the connectives. We have a very of a tight spot and at a crucial rich apparatus offering unprece- moment the vital words may be dented opportunities for missing and must be sought for. expression but do we have some- Words are the key to the duality thing to say? of the world - or even more as the I think we mustn't hurry. We metalevel of the poems is need the stories, the literature, sometimes quite tightly interwoven but we must not push things. We with the subject matter. It's a must first try to see the world - world which is very difficult to a slice of the present, some portray convincingly in a particular past, the future - different language - or even in through Lojban 'glasses'. The present-day Finnish which isn't literary world we eventually any more so rich in metaphor. create must have a distinct Lojban flavour to it, it mustn't be a 69 mere re-representation of some which point the student suddenly other world. It doesn't suffice started to write and produced a to avoid translation, the world quite respectable essay about the must be conceptualized in a Lojban brick in no time flat. We may way from the ground up. I don't have to take a similar route to think the stories need much of a get started. But for now - let's plot, the settings give enough start looking around. opportunities for fruitful utilization of the language. Even Nick: quite ordinary things can form the Wow. scaffolding around which the story I mean that quite sincerely. unfolds. If you read the stories I mean, when I bemoan Lojban by e.g. Ray Bradbury, quite many stylistics, I usually see the of them have a negligible plot. trees - the complexities of The something hangs in the nesting, the uncertainties of atmosphere, in many little things. place structures in flux (lujvo That, of course, takes great and gismu), the markedness of talent. I don't know whether any attitudinals. You, Veijo, seem to of us can muster that but we ought have struck at the essence. It is to be able to utilize Lojban for absolutely true that Lojban (and the necessary special effects - any language) sustain their own with due constraint. The thing world (it is also true that one mustn't be overdone, we are not should not be too flashy in aiming to produce a linguistic pursuing the manifestations of fire-works. The language ought to this world, as happens often in be utilized subtly to produce a Esperanto literature); it is also mosaic of shadow and sun-light, true that exploring this world is soft generalizations against which the great task awaiting Lojban sharp detail can be engraved, the literature. And it is even more dull monotonous every-day or true that my translations so far whatever described in a few, quick have not done any such exploration indicators and the richer moments (interestingly enough, David of life in ever increasing detail Twery's ckafyzda diary did - not using the full array of tools just because it was original available for the task. If we writing, but because it looked at don't try to reproduce the world the cafe in the staccato, explicit in the way we are accustomed to way we will come to expect of see it, to use the imagery of our Lojban...). respective native languages - or our secondary languages - but try John Cowan: On substantive to see our surroundings through matters, I associate myself with the Lojban glasses I think we may everything that Veijo says, and I find quite many things worth de- express my immense admiration for picting. the way that he says it. I, too, Perhaps we don't need the past believe that language naturally or the future to provide the leads to mythology, and that alienating background but can mythologies are not really contemplate the present in the transferable. (Tolkien started stories. It may even be more inventing his conlangs for the fruitful to start with something pure "philological" pleasure of small. I once read a book called it, and found that they led him 'Writing the natural way' where inexorably to mythopoetic.) the author told about a student of hers who had trouble in writing an Lojbab (written in December): essay about her home town. She Notwithstanding Veijo's excellent told the student to concentrate on points, the idea I intended in successively smaller and smaller raising the Kalevala as an example details until finally they were is that plot ideas for short down to an individual brick in the stories of classic interest are wall of a specific building at easy to find. Many of the plots 70 of stories in classic literature On the other hand, I am are not original plots; for recommending this primarily to example, most of Shakespeare's people who think they cannot come plays are unoriginal plots, based up with something more "original". on either on history, or on Original stories are fine, and retellings of tales that were indeed are especially encouraged. already set into plays or verse. If you develop a story naturally The intent is not to encourage out of simply narrating in a translation of the untranslatable Lojbanic manner, you will have epic of a national culture, but to achieved what we are seeking from point out that anyone who reads this effort, and bring Lojban can take a story they've seen in alive as a language. another language, in another form, and retell the plot in their own Veijo: One of the first things words, perhaps inventing some new we'll have to do when we start to characters. For example, one of use Lojban creatively is to chart my kids just brought home a the most obvious ways of twisting children's book, retelling the it in our quest for expressive classic fairy tale of Jack and the ability. Although a language has Beanstalk from the first person an unambiguous grammar and words point of view of Jack (who sees with but a single meaning, it must things perhaps a little dif- somehow allow for linguistic sur- ferently and from a more childlike prise - otherwise something is perspective than the impersonal lost. narrator of the classic version). The regularity of the language The story, even while being told will force us to find the in a simplistic children's "see materials for the element of Spot run" manner (and not very surprise in the choice of words well, in my opinion), conveys a and metaphors - and also in some sense of Jack's motivations that kind of contrapunctive would seem out-of-place in a juxtaposition of syntactical third-person narrative. structures, perhaps in a wise Thus, one suggestion, for choice of modals or imaginative someone who feels that they cannot personal tenses. Quantification come up with a plot idea to write of expressive power in a language about: take a story, perhaps a is probably something quite fairy tale or legend, that you unattainable. Even though we can have read or heard, figure out make sure that the Lojban grammar some way that the events of the covers all the necessary aspects story, or something akin to them, and are pretty convinced that might take place in a modern or tanru and lujvo can expand the vo- post-modern environment, and cabulary to the required extent, attempt to retell it as a first we cannot have any short term person narrative, conveying some certainty in this respect. sense of the emotions experienced Expression is a two-way process. by the storyteller using Lojban It is no use having an elegant attitudinals. expression if no one can really The story will not be a simple feel what you are trying to say. English (or Finnish) story In English - or any other living anymore, nor necessarily a mere language - we build our imitation of the original, because expressions to rest on the solid you will have added some original foundation of the linguistic point-of-view. And if the result imagery which forms large parts is not great literature, but even of the unconscious mind of merely "a pale imitation" anyway, the potential readers. In Lojban because your writing skill isn't we have nothing like this that great, I say that even a pale available. Even the most advanced imitation of some of the greatest of us will have to struggle - of literature is likely to be a probably for years to come - to better-than-average yarn. attain a level of competency where 71 reading is no more an intellectual comparison to that relatively exercise but a living experience. unknown mythic collection. I'll To really feel the language leave it to people to come up with requires that it flows in you a suitably jingling name to relatively effortlessly. You must supplant "The Kalevala Project". have a background against which to With the impending completion of contrast the author's way of the first Lojban dictionary, it is saying things. Esperanto is so time for people to write much like the mainstream Indo- originally in Lojban (rather than European languages that the early in translation from other literary efforts could build on languages) and hence to explore the existing imagery. Lojban is the unique point-of-view and style conceptually so different that we that Lojban's unusual nature might have no such easy way out of our bring to narrative (the assumption predicament. The imagery will of the uniqueness of this point- have to be different otherwise we of-view actually assumes Sapir- may end up using modals to rebuild Whorf is true, but we'll ignore the alien imagery. At this stage that problem for now). translations may contain seeds of We had a long discussion at peril as we don't yet have a LogFest, and Veijo's comments living tradition to protect the about basing the story(s) on a language from the dominance of uniquely Lojbanic world-view, external influences. I don't coupled with Nick Nicholas's implicate that we ought to exclude identification of what writings these influences totally. The seemed to him to best represent a language needs the common imagery budding Lojban culture, underlay of the whole mankind and perhaps much of the discussion and its even large sections of the current resolution. heritage of the main cultures but The goal is Lojban stories this imagery must trickle in in a written from a common narrative controlled way, not as an starting point, written by as many avalanche. different people as possible, each of varying Lojban skill levels. __________________________________ Quickly ruled out was a scenario _ involving medieval times, which would severely restrict the scope B. The Lojban Kalevala Project => of stories that could be told, and The Ckafybarja Project a space travel scenario, with people travelling together telling Lojbab: On Lojban List, there stories of their home worlds. has been discussion for the last Unfortunately, this type of month on what I once called the scenario would require a lot of Lojban Canterbury Tales. Several what SF people call "world- major cultures trace their building" - every story would need earliest cultural and linguistic the added baggage of devising a identity to a collection of believable 'world' wherein it stories written in the language. takes place, and making that These include Chaucer's Canterbury unique world come alive. Even the tales, which basically defined the better SF writers often fail at birth of Middle English, the 'world-building' game, and it Shakespeare, who did the same for seems too much to ask of the non- Modern English, the Decameron for expert writers who will be trying Italian, the tales of the Arabian to bring Lojban to life, to ask Nights for Arabic. Veijo Vilva's them to bring totally new worlds moving comments about the to life as well. necessary birth of a Lojban Still the idea is to bring stylistics through original people together in a situation literature, written under the where they will tend to tell subject title of "The Kalevala", stories, a process that takes time seems to have shifted the focus of 72 when a lot of stories are to be are SF fans, to get inspiration told. In modern society, people from a variety of similar ideas are simply not thrown together in used in SF stories, including the numbers sufficient for such "White Hart" tales of Arthur C. storytelling. There was a Clarke, and the Callahan's Bar suggestion of a scenario involving tales of Spider Robinson. For a a story-telling contest of some brief while we had the compromise type, but this didn't fire situation of a coffee house on the people's imagination. In edge of the sand pits, allowing retrospect, I think such a com- both indoor and outdoor settings petition would have caused for storytelling, but the anti-pit problems in that some of the people eventually came up with a short-shorts that beginning better approach. Lojbanists might write won't be in We devised an interesting, the same story-telling league as Lojban-allegorical coffeehouse longer stories told by more which is interesting enough to experienced Lojbanists. I'd serve as the subject of stories, rather see people write well what as well as a backdrop for the they feel comfortable at writing telling of stories. The concept about, and not try to compete with is a coffeehouse with an other Lojbanists, better or worse, international flavor in which which I think a competition theme Lojban is spoken. The atmosphere would naturally lead to. The goal is vaguely contemporary, but is Lojban stories written from a somewhat timeless. Indeed, one common narrative starting point, idea was to leave the outside of written by as many different the coffeehouse, i.e. its locale, people as possible, each of essentially unspecified. varying Lojban skill levels. Description #2 below, the We came up with a scenario that current strong favorite, is allows, and even encourages, a probably in a rural or mountainous motley collection of stories of setting, since it suggests that varying lengths. We decided to the sandpits are nearby if not draw on the limited range of immediately present, but unlike 'Lojban culture' that exists our starting premise, the sandpits today. The first such element are not essential to the identified was the "Jimbob" 'rant' description (though they clearly (as David Twery labelled it) that inspired the climbing equipment). we published in JL16. We talked But people voting for description of the stories that the Jimbobs #2 in many cases specified that might tell each other while they wanted the windows removed "working in the sandpits" while from the description, so that the the Esperantists climbed their outside remains undefined. What wall and the apes came abseiling will likely happen is that we will down. Several people liked this see how things develop from what idea, but others objected we have, and add more details as violently. To them, the Jimbob needed by specific authors as the allegory makes for a distracting culture of the coffeehouse becomes setting for telling a story - it further defined. is a story in itself and not a The coffeehouse has 6 employees, setting; it is also a humorous, each a representative of a culture indeed ridiculous setting, and using one of the source languages might ruin a story with a serious for Lojban (There was a lot of tone. debate over whether to use a Then we turned to David Twery's British or American representative coffee-house (ckafyzda) text for English, and I would have sug- [hopefully to be published in gested Australian in honor of JL18], which Nick has identified Nick, but people settled on as the first authentic-seeming American because unfortunately the "Lojban world-view" text. It also majority of Lojbanists, who are allows Lojbanists, many of whom mostly Americans, may be familiar 73 only with American culture, and we and rely upon to the finest don't want to shut people out of detail. this effort for cultural Indeed the coffeehouse blindness.) description will be described and We were able to identify a finalized in English, to make sure number of "roles" to be filled in that everyone understands all the a coffeehouse: manager, cook, details in a consistent manner. waiter/waitress, busboy, cashier. It also allows people to use a [clarification: the American variety of Lojban expressions and English word 'busboy', or perhaps forms to describe the English- 'bus-person' cleans tables at the defined setting. Thus the end of a meal and prepares them descriptions by various authors for new patrons.] will not read exactly the same, But some of these are seen as of yet the place they are describing a lower, subservient nature as will obviously be the same place. compared with others. Rather than We welcome and indeed encourage risk association of some culture people to write descriptions in being seen as stereotypically sub- Lojban, recognizing that the servient by tying a character of description will have to be that culture to a particular role translated into clear English. (e.g., the Chinese busboy), the But this gives people something to workers rotate jobs, giving the write about in Lojban, and you can job of cook to a different person if you choose use your Lojban text each night, with the effect that as a starting point for an even- the menu is both international, tual story for the collection. exotic, and a bit unpredictable. The third phase of the scenario The manager was assigned to the definition is to define the six Chinese character, based on characters in enough depth that Chinese as the most populous of people can include them in the the Lojban languages. backdrop to their stories and have A friend of Karen Stein's who them recognizably be the same came to LogFest, Phil, wrote up people. The details should range three descriptions based on this from gender, age, and appearance, concept. Description #2 was to personality, distinctive favored provided that the windows mannerisms, and outside interests were removed from the description, that might serve as jumping off and thus the need to describe what places for a story when the is outside the windows. indicated person comes up to the Meanwhile there is further work table with a tray of food, or to be done, some of which requires coffee. knowledge of Lojban, some that This phase will be conducted in requires only imagination. More the manner of a contest followed details of the setting need to be by a vote. Write a character worked out, eventually giving sketch of one of the characters, enough information that a detailed putting as much or as little floor plan of the coffeehouse can detail into your description as be drawn, with locations of you care to. The contest will be everything marked, so that people announced in JL17 (but I'd like to writing stories can be consistent have a couple of samples by then), in describing the scene wherein and thus people have plenty of the story is told (given that the time to write good descriptions exterior environment is undefined, before a voting a couple of months there is no particular need for later, with the results of all consistency, or even implied phases of this introductory work truth, in the stories themselves, appearing in JL18, I hope. All but it was felt that this col- those who submit any ideas, text, lection, being written by a large description, or otherwise indicate number of authors of varying definite interest in participating styles, needed to have some one in the project will be eligible to thing that all authors could share vote. Again, character descrip- 74 tions can be written in Lojban, carpet might be made brown to hide but we will also need English coffee stains. translations. However, the polycultural Description #1 polylinguistic background of the characters has led me to identify My eyes had to adjust to the a fourth task that the more difference in lighting. The light skilled Lojbanists can start on in the place came from the twelve now, independent of the actual stain glass tiffany lamps which descriptions of the characters (or hung from the ceiling over a at least it may be so). Each of table. Low wattage bulbs cast a our 6 cultural representatives pale light around a place which will be a native speaker of their measured some 10 meters in length own language - Lojban is the and some 5 meters across. The lingua franca that all share, and tables have four chairs set around the lingua franca of those who each of them, and as I sat down in patronize the coffeehouse as well the green cushioned chair I was (hence stories told in Lojban shown, I had a chance to survey therein). But Lojban has many the rest of this place I found my- possible styles, and some of these self. The table settings had styles will be dependent on the white linen napkins with an native language of the speakers. embroidered design of a type Thus, the Hindi speaker may be unfamiliar to me. The silverware prone to SOV-order sentences, the was of a plain though excellent in Chinese speaker to strange-to- quality, in addition there was a English-speakers tanru, and the set of chopsticks incorporated Arabic speaker to flowery meta- into the traditional place set- phor. The Russian speaker may ting. There were no coffee cups choose lujvo forms that are heavy set out on the tables. [Along the in consonant clusters, whereas the walls hung pictures, and many of Chinese speaker will minimize these were of people whom I did clusters and maximize vowels. not recognize, and always with the I don't pretend to know enough same person, presumably the of the non-English source manager of this establishment.] languages to try to describe them Each picture had a gold frame, and in any detail, but some Lojbanists the expressions in the pictures like Ivan Derzhanski probably do; ranged across every known emotion. others might be willing to The floor was carpeted with a research. The result will be green shag of similar shade to the perhaps a short sample of Lojban chairs, as a result the only "conversation" and of "narrative" sounds that one hears is the styles for each of the six gentle flapping to the door going characters (perhaps each of them into the kitchen, and the whispers describing the same scene to make of conversations occurring at the for ready comparison), along with nearby tables. [The place was an English language description of quiet, still, at peace, as the man the essential linguistic in all the pictures is approaching ingredients that comprise the me. ...] style, so that others can try to _____________________________ emulate the styles when writing. The ideal will thus be, along with Description #2 is the current distinctive personalities for the favorite, having references to 6 characters, a distinctive style existing Lojban texts that might of Lojban speech that will somehow be worked into the identify the characters and also stories-to-be-told, possibly with lend authenticity to the style. modification. The main objection Here are the proposed is to the windows, that would descriptions. For #1, the offen- require a description of the ding-to-some picture sentences are outside. (The outside might, but bracketed. Someone suggested the need not, be in a mountainous 75 rural area where rock climbing is was the inscription: "Members of done - or sand pits. We didn't the first sandpit expedition to want to be stuck with Don Harlow's find the first digger, or traces El Capitan reference of the thereof - 198?" The table also original Jimbob story - not ev- bore other marks of former patrons eryone knows what Yosemite looks who had drank their selections and like, and who says that the transcribed their feelings with coffeehouse is even anywhere in pitons. The walls were littered America.) A possible modification with climbing apparel and debris would be to make the windows high in what might charitably have been up, or frosted so that people termed a collage. There were the can't see through them. This rusting remains of pitons and provides the light without the hooks abutting practically new undefined scenery. lengths of the latest high test [Note: This is not the original rope. Opposite the door from text prepared by Phil. The stairs which I had entered was a ladder - from Ivan's story printed in this a climbing ladder, of course. The issue were originally ladder reached to the ceiling, and misunderstood to be a ladder, and a solid-looking trap door that a ladder was therefore added to made me wonder of the unknown the description. Though we've relics that lay beyond, and the learned that the ladder in the stories they might hold. coffeehouse bears no resemblance Underneath these visible artifacts to the marble stairs of Ivan's were the dour reminders of the story, the concept in a room fur- primary business of this nished in climbing equipment, of establishment-coffee. There were using a climbing ladder to access full wooden bins of coffee from a trap door (presumably leading to just about every place in the the attic, wherein other artifacts world, with or without caffeine. may be found that could inspire The cook was visible to all and in more stories) fits the scenario the process of developing the even if the specific association latest creation on the current with Ivan's story is excluded. menu, and not without some debate Indeed, someone of Ivan's culture about the amount of spice the might see the ladder, and use it particular dish required. This as a lead-in to tell that story. happy riot provided the That is the purpose of having counterpoint to the hissing, and detailed decor with potential boiling of a near endless stream heavy symbolism - it allows people of coffee beans in response to the hooks to hang a story on, either a always cold, often frustrated, and new story or one from their native very determined clientele. culture.] __________________________________ Description #2 _ As I walked under the crossed #3 is a distinctly unsavory climbing axes, and into the cof- place, or savory indeed if that is feehouse, I felt I was in a place the type of place you like. designed to give one the feeling People seemed to feel strongest of putting on an old comfortable about this one, in both positive pair of shoes. [The large arched and negative directions. windows filled the dining area with light, and since all of the Description #3 booths were lined along the outside, every booth had a superb The current dart game was in view of the .] The benches were progress, with its normally furi- made of old soft oak, in which ous dispute about scoring from its many tales and symbols had been very stressed participants. I had carved. On the bench I was seated walked in for my usual pot of 76 Jamaican Blue Mountain, this being cultural imagery self-conscious the only place I could get it and flimsy. But this project is every day, and I sat down in my just perfect for us. We can get usual table, one of the few which cosy in it; we can all write like had a level table, and reasonably Twery :), in that detached, sound chairs. I reviewed the detail-seeking chain of sumti I familiar surroundings. Aside from find so endearing; we can the dart game, which had a wall in concentrate on the tiniest details which the number of dart holes ap- (Lojban is ideally suited for that peared to compromise the tutorial application Veijo structural integrity of the build- mentioned - start writing about a ing, there was the varnished town by writing about a single hardwood floor, which was again brick in a building in the town). showing the effects of the heavy We should not be afraid to put traffic of the numbers and shoes into the story that which we are, of the customers. The place either. No need to exoticise or closes for a week once every three aggrandise our late-20th-century years, just so the management can mundaneness and splinter interests refinish the floor. The other (the exotic is not unwelcome, of tables were showing their wear course). from the customers. Some of the The unsympathetic outsider might tables were still in good shape, also scoff at our attention to but most were worn out from the detail (the colour of the life that seemed to pour out of carpet?!) - but no, this all the customers and into the matters. furniture, the poor furniture was It's right to reject Jimbobs as not designed for this. As a a story basis; a bit too self- result, these old maple and pine conscious, and intended as a pedestal tables had not only seen cliquey thing. Still, veiled ref- better days, they had seen better erences to current pitwork years. However, like the dart wouldn't help, and would allow a game, the often refinished floor, lot of therapeutic mutual ego and the old sunbeam coffee ma- massaging :) What with the chines, and cast iron cooking allegory really being Don Harlow's utensils I have often seen brainchild, I wonder what cleaned, they are irreplaceable. reference we make to the There is an identity to this Esperantists going up the mountain place, that while the customers - and in general, how much we let may come and go, this place will the outside world (including be what they share in common. merko) impinge on the Cafe goings ______________ on. Chinese - Manager; Russian - I have a couple of thoughts on Cook/Wait/Bus/Dishwasher; the Cafe personnel and the decor; American - Cook/Wait/Bus/- I'll get back to you. My Dishwasher; Arabic - Cook/Wait/- jimbobism makes me go for #2, with Bus/Dishwasher; Hindi - Cook/- #3 as an alternative. Do we go Wait/Bus/Dishwasher; Spanish - for equal ratios of men and women? Cook/Wait/Bus/Dishwasher. Do we have any minorities or Rotating Menu, With Chinese "deviations" in the personas, or overtones because of manager keep them mainstream? [Clarifying International Menu later: Actually, I was thinking sexual minorities. I expect we Discussion can also assume homophobia to have been eradicated in Lojbanistan.] Nick: This is a most capital Hm. We shall see. suggestion. I'm for it full Dang, this WILL be fun :) throttle. I mean, sure, the unsympathetic outsider would find The names will have to be native our scampering for any hint of Lojban (rafsi): 77 .u'isai.u'uru'e mi pu nalmorji colourless - in fact, they are as lenu cusku lei se stidi cmene. We colourful as anything - and they could have are not in the least Russian in {cic.} ("Wildman") culture (that is Grin's own {cis.} ("Hot Pants") nationality). {cit.} ("Kid") [On sexual minorities:] ... Now {ciz.} ("Wierdo") I'm going to milxe disagree. We {dar.} ("Daredevil") aren't going to break all existing {dib.} ("Darl") conventions at once, are we? {din.} ("Moneybag") We're in an imaginary land, our {dir.} ("Mr. Kibbitz") characters talk in Lojban, that's {duk.} ("Worrywart") about enough. I think I could do {fad.} ("Norm") with three men and three women, {fad.} ("Mr Attitude") all of them heterosexual. {faz.} ("Dennis the Menace") [On staffing:] I don't see why {fun./xaufun.} ("Lucky") (these we need the staff to be rotating. are all #3 names, eh?) That's not how coffeehouses in the - or for less unsavoury: real world are anyway. {sax.} ("Harmonia") [Nick: Mmm... OK, don't have {glek.} ("Felicia") 'em rotating shrug. Cuts the {vir.} ("Carl") numbers down to five.] {nol.} ("Adolf") {tir.} ("Ferris") ... Veijo: As a quick first comment I support these opinions. It's Ivan: Whoever wants to write a better to make these 'background' story with Chinese, (Hindu) characters as neutral as possible Indians, or Arabs among the so that the writers don't get into characters had better be very unnecessary problems. The familiar with the corresponding characters and the storytellers/- cultures. I wouldn't venture observers in the actual stories anything of the sort, and are another matter. A visitor therefore make the following dropping into the cafe isn't Counterproposal. Don't specify observing the 'common' world when any national identity or cultural in the cafe. His story or the background for the characters. story he is listening to while in Make them representatives of an the cafe may describe various eth- abstract, undetermined, or nic/national/linguistic groups but fictitious nation. In this case the narrator's relationship to the they might be Lojbanis by birth, cafe ought to reflect his rela- for example. Assume, for the tionship to the Lojbanic culture. purpose of the game, that He may be a full-blown lojbo or everyone's skin is the same still have one foot in his ori- colour. ginal culture which will affect Otherwise you risk to end up the way he describes the settings, with a story that no Arab (say) the balance between superficial would find plausible. and essential details. Maybe even [Later clarifying:] When I the male/female dichotomy is proposed that, I was mainly superfluous in this context. thinking of the stories of Alexander Grin, one of my favour- Nick: Neutral, yes, but not ite authors. The events in his characterless. Exploring stories happen in a country which stylistic stereotypes (the doesn't exist in the real world, sledgehammer JL15 I'm prone to) and even no hint is given as to should be fun. I already had in its location on the map (though it mind a tanru-ist, an attitu- is clear that it is a warm area :- dinalist, an anaphorist and an )). The characters, natives of SVO-ist, as well as the obligatory that country, are not associated Prolog speaker :) with any of the existing cultures. I think the monomania of Yet they are by no means exploring every facet of familiar 78 objects in a familiar surrounding better not to go too carefully (the old brick thing) is highly this route, and play with that in pertinent to this do. Plots and one of your own stories with a few tales aren't essential; a laid- patrons you bring in (if you think back, look-at-what-everyone-else- you can do it and still make the is-doing-and-how-that-crack-on- story work, which Ivan fears the-wall-runs attitude is just as wouldn't happen). Remember: If appropriate here. you want something in a character, In a boisterous environment like it can walk in the door. The #2, given we've taken out the patrons, over which each writer cultural differences, I'd prefer has more or less complete control, it if the boisterousness were are the ones which make the sustained by some heterogeneity stories click. The staff is amongst the cafe personnel. background. Your plan might be a good idea, Mark: Remember, guys, these are Nick, but it may make writing a the background characters. It'd real challenge for normal folk. be fine to give them some flavor Remember, the staff are characters and all, but don't think they're that everyone has to live with. the only ones around, nor the key If you want a few characters that ones (except perhaps in some rare you can deal with that have such "Cook's Tale" or something). speech styles, the door's right ... [Gender] doesn't make a over there, and here they come. whole lot of difference, really. It's unfair to ask a beginning Bear in mind that this is Lojban speaker to incorporate such we're dealing with; you needn't clevernesses into his writings by know anyone's sex unless it making characters common to all becomes important. I could see the stories have these traits. the waiter's sex never mentioned Tell me, when was the last time until five stories down the line you could tell at a glance the when somehow it makes a sexual orientation of your waiter? difference. It'd be nice to keep Um, badly put (wedding rings are a it equal, so bear that in mind if giveaway). I mean, that's not it becomes necessary to specify something anyone would notice or someone's gender. care about unless it chanced to Your own characters, that's become important in a story. If something else. Remember, these you want someone with orientation characters are not the ones doing X, have him/her/it/them walk in most of the story-telling. The the front door, under the climbing ones doing that are the patrons axes. If you feel a need to whom you bring in. They may have attach that kind of info to a their own idiosyncrasies, culture, staff member, make sure nobody has bias, whatever. In fact, I beaten you to it, and then think imagine the chief method of find- twice before doing it. ing out people's sex/color/- Remember, though, that when you accent/whatever might be seeing tweak the background or the staff, things from the point of view of a you're messing with something that patron who happens to be all the writers have to live with. particularly concerned about such Don't build your world and force things. everyone else to live in it; bring Keep them neutral. I don't your world into everyone else's. think you have to go out of your In fact, if you really need the way to try to convince me they're waiter to be a certain way, you native lojbananas, and I always might even consider having a feel funny about overusing the replacement waiter that day, just rafsi-as-name bit; you just can't to be on the safe side. trust it. I like the idea of giving them distinct, but Nick: Oh, ok. Still, these'll distinctly lojbanic, speaking be the people we come home to in styles, but perhaps it would be every episode; they do have to be 79 "character actors". It seems I case that with people representing missed the point of these 6 cultures interacting on a characters, nevertheless, for constant basis that none of the which I duly apologise. characters would be 'pure' in While I want them to be representing their culture - after boisterously different from each all, they do not live with their other, I also want them to have own people (at least not likely). common reference points - I want them, as a mass, to provide a (Ivan: Getting a non-American feeling of home (Lojbanistan?) culture is great, but calling it against which the protagonists are Arabic or Hindi (by the way, foregrounded. Of course, since we what is Hindi culture? I've don't know what being a native never heard of such), without Lojbani would entail, we can't having a close familiarity with exaggerate this. the real ones, would be way too ... best is to keep [differences bold.) in speech] subtle (not whack whack (Nick: Agreed. But not zo'u VSO); since that'll take a inappropriate details, lot of finesse (which I'm not sure which will lead us to I have), we might as well play embarrassment. Your this one down. Still, a vague Hindi-speaking co-owner guideline (this character prefers will either be: US (or tanru, this one expands) won't Australian) assimilated, hurt overmuch. to some extent or other [As for backgrounds,] I won't (just like all the Hindi- mess with what's there, but I speakers I know), or a would like something reasonably caricature. We need some explicit there to build on. I am character and colouring in going to describe a particular the owners. But talking crack in a wall :) about cultures we don't know enough about (I mean, Lojbab: Ivan asks for several gee, what do I come up changes, all of which remove de- with as a character trait tail from the persons and scenery for a Hispanic?) is plain details. To write a good story, too risky. Seek diversity the details must be present. If elsewhere, in that which we do not specify the culture of we are familiar with, and the characters, they will have no that which everyone is culture; i.e. they will be familiar with. Having colorless, which is exactly what them come out Americans is we don't want. not the ultimate problem (besides, there are enough (Ivan: Not necessarily. They of us outside the States simply won't be identified with to avoid that); you don't any one of the existing need to hunt down the cultures.) exotic. There is little more mundane and more An- Actually they won't be - with glo-cultural than la mostly Americans in the Lojban tuerp.'s [David Twery] or community, they will all end up as la .andruc.'s [Andrew nondescript American in culture. Smith] writing; and yet I would rather attempt and fail to their work has the im- capture hints of a foreign culture mediate charm of being than not to attempt at all, and comfortably Lojbanic that have the result seem too American. we seek.) We may not succeed in capturing a true Arabic or Hindi culture (but then we might come close), but we will get a somewhat non-American culture. One would expect in any 80 The setting must be well- quite difficult to create truly developed and self-consistent. flesh-and-blood characters. But The stories told indeed must stand telling about a person known to on their own, but if we are to everybody may be equally have any cohesiveness to a set of difficult. To be consistent with stories written by a a variety of the characterization without people, many with no particular merely copying, to add something talent for literary writing, we or just to express it somewhat need some common setting that is differently takes skill at many well enough developed that the levels. Actually, it might be stories hang together. Otherwise much more difficult than making a we just have an anthology of quick sketch of a stranger or random stories, which loses the adding depth to some your own cre- joint-ness of the project. ation - even in your own native The effort of those who worked language. Fitting a limited hard to come up with the scenario, expressiveness in Lojban to a and the rather inspirational detailed microcosm may be in fact effect it seemed to have as the harder than creating the details coffeehouse came together in on the fly from the bits and peoples minds, is just the type of pieces of the Lojban you do consensus work that we lojbo do master. well, and I want to see more of Brainstorming in English at a it. LogFest may give you quite a Indeed, the better writers can skewed view. There people are invent stories and worlds of their using the imagery of their native own, and characters as well. English to create the ckafyzda and Others may choose to have their everything flows smoothly. A story rest in an interaction detailed English plan is, however, between patrons and staff in the a double-edged sword. It helps, coffeehouse, which itself is a as you said, people to visualize basis for a lot of powerful story this microcosm. On the other hand imagery, and, given some people must get rid of this preparatory work in character visualization not to be hampered development of the staff, allows by it (jumping from English - or people with perhaps less skill or Finnish or what so ever - to imagination to still tell a Lojban already requires a certain reasonable story, concentrating on amount of flexibility of mind). the Lojban and not on the creative It will also be quite necessary to work that not all of us do so transform the plan into a Lojban well. plan to help the less experienced The better writers can invent Lojbanists to handle the basic stories and worlds of their own, premises. I used the word and characters as well. Others 'transform' quite intentionally may choose to have their story instead of the word 'translate' as rest in an interaction between I feel that a translation isn't patrons and staff in the sufficient, it is quite necessary coffeehouse, which itself is a to try to remove the 'alien' basis for a lot of powerful story imagery. At another - simpler - imagery, and, given some level it is necessary to give the preparatory work in character required lujvo and the ways of de- development of the staff, allows scribing certain quite elementary people with perhaps less skill or things: distances, relationships, imagination to still tell a the way things hang together. It reasonable story, concentrating on might be useful to have a kind of the Lojban and not on the creative workshop (on the List) where the work that not all of us do so novice lojbo would be taught to well. navigate in this verbal VR (virtual reality). There might be Veijo: There are many facets to teams of two or more people creativeness. It is, of course, 81 working on a person or even a (Nick: I think it's perfectly table to get it just so. possible, but then, I think we're also looking for different (Nick: Because I have only things in character definition. vague suspicions about how this What maketh a Hindi speaking might work, I propose that we, character? I know personally 3 as an example, navigate on native Hindi speakers Now what [Lojban List] around, oh, the do I extract from them to leftmost bench nearest the create, say, la jbosanjiv., and kitchen. I'm not being what am I missing by virtue of facetious; I want to see how one the fact that I talk with these would go about this. The tables people in English, within an are made of old soft oak, on Anglo culture? If these which many symbols and inscrip- characters aren't assimilated tions have been carved.) into some medium we're familiar This kind of process might help with (regrettably or not, people to find their own voice and this'll have to be a more or to cultivate the innate creativity less Anglo cultural medium - each one of us is sure to possess. leave the "or less" part to us na'e glico) they'll be Nick: And with what you (Veijo) caricatures. And of course, as say about characterisation, too, background, they don't have to the solution is a broad-brush be that detailed anyway. sketch that allows us room to maneuver in; not too detailed, not If we're to avoid a palace coup, too vague. Well, that can sure, keep them Hindi and Arabic certainly be handled. in name; but don't expect the I think a Lojbanisation of the character description to be too brush-stroke plan will not be adamant about their cultural limiting at all; people do really identity. Exoticising these need that help in simply keeping a people is unsatisfactory. They narrative going. will be somewhat assimilated, into As the mass of writers becomes be it merko or jbomerko. This is more familiar with Lojban, the nothing to be ashamed of. Talking Cafe will be sketched out in about the Arab's fiery temperament greater detail in the story, and or the Russian's cool intellect as more successfully, with the end cultural traits would be.) result possibly quite distant from After we have the basic scenario what we'd anticipated at the settled, the material can be start. The more expert of us translated into Lojban, and people reinforce those less expert in the can set up teleconferences of describing. whatever kind to help each other in writing, or whatever, but while Lojbab: The plan is that there the project is still in the be 1 coffeehouse, and that the de- formative stage, we must make scription be suitably refined in provision for those who want to English. People will develop learn Lojban but haven't yet done refined descriptions of 6 so, and for those who do not have characters (or some other number net access (which is 90% of the if we abandon the 6 cultures idea community). - but I don't think you can have a Be that as it may, I recognize 'cultureless person' and have the that most of the work will be done character detail that I think the by people on net, and we should others want in the shared take advantage of the opportunity characters), which will then be for rapid communication. But voted on, which means the please be considerate of those who characters must also be defined in want to participate but cannot. English. If people think they can develop interesting culture-free characters, I for one will await 82 the first posted character de- messages on the screen and the scription meeting the challenge. inevitable problems caused by widely differing time zones - it's (Nick: Cool. Veijo's like being a semi-cyborg. navigation of virtual reality I can imagine, on the other can be done once the description hand, the limitations of meeting is in place, and the description others only, say, once a week and should not be exhaustive.) keeping all the ideas to yourself in the meantime and not hearing Veijo: I certainly understand from the others or the goings-on those of us who were at the (too few of us are still LogFest and now feel that the net- accustomed to writing real letters people are trying to take over the - and remembering the state of whole Project utilizing their postal services to-day I guess it technological 'supremacy'. On the wouldn't much help). I can think other hand, we who are, due to of being without the List external factors unsurmountable, (shudder). Of course it is a unable to attend the LogFests and slightly different matter for me are limited to electronic here in the middle of a figurative contacts, which - though fast - nowhere. The blip of an arriving cannot compete with face-to-face message envelope is also a symbol contacts and classes, feel left of the contact with you others. out of the initial phase of the Project. Lojbab: In this case the people Actually we were left a quite in question who are not on-net limited say in the formulation of live 250 miles from here and have the framework. The views I did no contact with any Lojbanists present in my previous postings except at LogFest, and when JL were ones I should have liked to comes out. We may all be in the present at the LogFest, I should same country over here, but that have liked to have had my say at doesn't necessarily mean that we that time. Perhaps it would have are close to each other. On the made no difference in the outcome, other hand, I see your point of but I should have felt view too. Your ideas will be pre- differently. When I was writing sented to them, and the decision the postings I recognized I was - process will just take a little at least to an extent - writing longer. I just wanted people to post facto. The writing was, try to think of ways to keep however, necessary to find out everyone working towards the same just how much elbowroom I had. goals, when some people are stuck These postings (as quite many of with paper mail rates. This is my previous ones) must be taken not intended to stifle the lively with a pinch of salt. They are in and entertaining debate that has a way a substitute for the process occurred. of thinking out loud in a class or I don't think that the people a group working on a problem. The off net are necessarily locked postings do contain errors and into the 6 cultures idea. But false starts which in a class they did sound very committed to would be corrected immediately. I the idea of these common am at least as much talking to characters being defined is myself as to others on the net - considerable detail, in English, but the process only works if I do before people started to write in send the messages out. Lojban. The desire for detail and I do hope that the people who for English, as well as the clear feel left out of all the fun we on desire for people to go beyond the net do have would try - once philosophy and into specific in a while - to imagine themselves detailed descriptions of people sitting a couple of thousand and the coffeehouse itself, is kilometers from the nearest active what I was trying to urge. fellow lojbo and having only the 83 It was my idea, not theirs, that side this land/domain of Kaleva the best way to show Hindi culture which actually remains quite vague is my having some Hindi-inspired and so, in a way, the name tells Lojban stylistics, etc. I think nothing of the contents - it just the original people posing the kind of sets the reference point. idea were thinking more along the So I think we might as well lines of having the chef of the replace 'The Kalevala' with 'la day specialize in cooking foods of jbotur.' (lojbo tutra = the his/her native culture (for which domain of Lojban) and call the we would need lots of lujvo and project 'The Jbotur Project' (le le'avla in order to have the foods la jbotur. fitpla) or something recognizable, if then). Thus I like that (for the time being). thought that stylistics of Lojban Here I am thinking of tutra in would be a more creative way to quite a figurative sense, more as go, people will recognize the a mental territory/domain/sphere exoticness of the non-standard of influence than as a forms, and maybe even learn a geographical territory. I also little linguistics about the thought of various other differences in the languages based possibilities but none were as on the Lojban forms. But I do not concise or descriptive. see that we have to go too extreme Again a couple of figurative to bona fide culture, especially names: if people don't think they can pull it off. la *jbolaz. ( < lojbo lanzu) = If people don't want to use the the people tied together by 6 culture labels, I suspect this Lojban will fly, but only if the characters are defined well enough la jbonat. ( < lojbo natmi) = that people writing feel they the people with a Lojbanic 'know' the characters either cultural background fully, or in terms of any cultural features/stereotypes/whatever that I can't tell why I prefer 'jbo' would be most noticed by your to 'loj' in this context. Perhaps everyday lojbo wandering in for a it gives the lujvo a certain cup of coffee. distance from concreteness. I don't think that there is a Lojban is something quite concrete 'splintering' between the non- and 'la lojnat.' would feel too netters and the netters. But my near to 'Lojbanic nation'. responsibility is to see that one Theoretically, of course, there is doesn't come about. I fully feel no difference and the two are Veijo's isolation in not being interchangeable. I'll leave it to able to come to LogFest. But others to decide whether these there are plenty of people in the particular forms are preferable U. S. who feel just as distant as and whether these names are worth you do, though they may be only adoption to name the abstract 250 miles away instead of 8000. entities in our writings. I think we have/will have the entities. Veijo: [On] the name of the [Lojbab: "*jbolaz" is an Project: The Kalevala got to the invalid name, because it name of the project more by way of contains a syllable accident than by volition. It is starting with "la". in a way quite fitting as the However, it is Kalevala (or the epic poems/songs permissible, and perhaps on which it is based) was created even more Lojbanic, to by numerous anonymous people leave the name as a brivla during several centuries. The "la jbolanzu". brivla, of '-la' at the end of the name course, do not have the corresponds roughly to the '-ia' "la" restriction. Perhaps of 'Lojbania'. Most of the we should save name action, however, takes place out- morphology for words 84 Lojbanized from other lan- nominal editor (forwarding mail to guages. the editor de jour who must commit Another alternative that works him/herself to passing all is to use a different articles through the current rafsi condensation that parser, and glossing lujvo as avoids the problem. In appropriate.) this case "la loblaz." is legal because the "b" Lojbab: I see no problem with before the "la" prevents a such a newsletter, but feel that morphology problem. This it is appropriate after the is a solution here, but getting started period of the won't always be possible, first two issues of JL, which will so I favor the selbri ap- serve to give more people a chance proach in general. to decide to participate who are Since there has been no in the snailmail set. agreement among the par- After the next two issues of JL, ticipants as to the name I suspect that there will be of the cafe, in editing enough people motivated by the this issue I have left all project and skilled enough at names, including this Lojban, that there will be more invalid one, as stated by than just Nick and Veijo trying to the authors. Ideas for write stuff that is appropriate, names are welcome from all including some people not on net. of the community. When the non-netters feel comfort- __________________________________ able in participating, then I ______ personally will have no qualms in letting the project go where it C. The Cafe *Jbolaz Newsletter will, including letting whatever proposal leaders have emerged at that point assume both control and Nick: Every two months, an responsibility. I would hope of electronic and snailmail [i.e course that LLG would be offered regular postal mail] set of Cafe first publication rights on the descriptions gets mailed out - results, as well as to get as much this is necessary to allow the archival data as possible on this, off-net participants to keep up to the first organized-and-skilled date. For net participants, a creative writing effort in what is month after posting their cafe obviously about to become a living article on the net, they must language. submit a revision incorporating all comments made. For those off Veijo: The original plan called net, the newsletter editor for stories told at the Cafe. We forwards all comments (net and have already had differences of snail), allowing the contributor opinion concerning background to post a revision, say, four details. Now Nick is proposing months later. The newsletter is that we widen the scope to include all-Lojban, and people (preferably also other kinds of related liter- on the net, and preferably gram- ary works. (My srinuntroci or mar-competent) can take turns navigations as Nick calls them are editing it. The newsletter is just kind of etudes, not meant to cafe only, other literature being be the stories, though widening forwarded as usual for JL the scope will make them eligible consideration. Cafe articles need for publication.) In principle I not be tales at all - any piece to am for this change of policy as it do with the cafe (like Veijo's makes it possible also for the navigation or my Fraktur rant) is less advanced lojbo to participate legit, as is any genre. If we all in the creative process. It is approve on this, the newsletter much less demanding to produce a can be announced in JL. Some snapshot of a few lines than to central on-net personage should be 85 produce something like Nick's bit stodgy in Lojban, but would Fraktur rant. We could have many also help explore Lojban's more people contributing if this capacities more. A catechism or were an acceptable option. I an Encyclopedia reference (I know think the non-netters would profit I've got Joyce's Ulysses in mind most from this change as longer here, but bear with me) are just stories do need more rounds of as valid modes of expression, and feedback from others. just as helpful to the language. The question of the editorship A fixed kind of narrative is and of a possible editorial board unduly constrictive, and can must be solved. Although discourage many would-be technical reasons seem to indicate participants. In fact, I'd be an on-net board, other discouraged from producing a possibilities must also be straightforward narrative. considered. The board might also Plus, I think the opportunity of be something quite informal. In using this as a springboard for practice we would have a wide open some satire of the Lojban movement peer review system where in is too good to pass up :) principle all the lojbo on the net Certainly the editorship need would be doing the reviewing. For not be formal. Let me attempt to the netters this works fine but I refine my proposal: the editor du think Nick's proposal concerning jour is entrusted with the the non-netters would require some typographic preparation of the fine-tuning. journal, the style preferred in This issue must be handled with his/her number (namely, subjective the greatest sensitivity. minor issues of expression - lujvo The division of work between the phrasing, optional punctuation and board and the Lojban Central must spelling, minor grammatical errors be agreed on. There are technical - can be left to them). They also questions like handling of the do the chasing up of snailmail if the editors are correspondence and editing of mainly outside the USA (most of discussions eventuating from the non-netters are in the USA) articles published in their issue, and converting source text to text adjusting the work accordingly and files suitable for e-mail. resubmitting it on the expiry date Last but not least are the to the current editor for financial questions. I think the publication. What I'm saying is ideal would be if we could find that a given ed du jour is independent ways of funding the responsible for all articles first newsletter and the related published by him. For example: editorial mail so that we don't suppose I, Mark, and Colin are eds strain the limited resources of du jour, and, oh, Nancy Lebovitz the Central. We need some (say) submits an article that gets estimate of the volume of the mail corrected and published during my and the circulation of the editorship. I then, and not Mark, newsletter. This concerns mainly follow up any subsequent the section of the community which discussion and correspondence doesn't have net access. An about Nancy's article, I make the option might be to circulate the suitable adjustments, and hand the newsletter as an appendix to JL. finished result, and only the more interesting highlights of the dis- Nick: In creating a virtual cussion, to Colin (say) for world such as this, we must be af- republication. I suppose that forded full freedom in our ways of means that my norms, rather than exploring it, and full scope for Colin's, go for the republished Lojbanists of all interests and article; but at least work gets capabilities to work with it. shared out that way. Extended narrative is one The reviewing of text is of alternative; others would not only course carried out by all sub- be a relief from what could get a scribers to the newsletter, on net 86 or off. But one person has to tie Certainly we should use the net to all the threads together at the make sure stuff gets snailmailed end, and take responsibility for in the same quarter of the globe, touching up the text in accordance at least; that'll be a big help. with the criticisms made; let that One article per newsletter in JL, person be the first publication's but I'd like the newsletter to ed du jour. eventually have some editorial The editor in chief takes care independence (once again, that of the editorial; his/her address would be excellent PR). appears in the newsletter as the [As to who should be editor, it] address to which all basically boils down to who feels correspondence is directed; has a like being ed du jour (and certain amount of veto as to handling a lot of grammar and article content (checking for correspondence), and who feels consistency and so forth), vetts like ed in chief (who will have the newsletter just before little grammar, but lots of publication, and reports to the correspondence, supervision, and wider community through JL as consistency checking)? I still needed. nominate Veijo for ed in chief; I see no reason why stories I'll go ed du jour, and we should should not be mailed for sub- have 3 to 5 such eds that we can mission and entered into text divide work between; they need to files directly by the editor in have demonstrated Lojban chief, who is after all just one competence, and that already address (if this is a forbidding narrows down the candidates to responsibility for an ed in chief, less than twenty. um, I dunno, get the ed a scanner :) Of course, all these proposals Lojbab (originally private to are for when the project is off on Veijo): I haven't said so, and its own two feet and running. For have been biting my tongue while now, if I understand Lojbab's mail all the discussion is going on. correctly, Lojban Central will It sounds like the Lojban still mediate. "creative writing" movement is The LLG can have all the about to take off on its own, and archival stuff it wants (and with be more than mildly independent of editorship a net activity, "Lojban Central" with its own there'll be plenty of it). I'm editor (perhaps you) and not sure about publication rights publication not much under my though. I envisage a periodical control. I think this is good publication, rather than a book- because it shows the language can form corpus, that certainly is and will become free of me and of distributed by the LLG, and sold even the concept of a centralized at a profit to the LLG, but which "Central". This also allows me to is produced by a decentralised show that my attitude is entirely body, which is not necessarily opposite from JCB, who when faced equivalent to the LLG. with anything like this I suppose Lojbab's approach [on immediately becomes extremely finances] will do. I dearly want possessive and controlling. I a periodical publication out of will not display such an attitude, this, not just a corpus of text to at all costs; our legitimacy as an be dumped in Fairfax for people to organization and a project order; but it is fair that the independent of JCB depends on it. periodical be available by LLG's Still I have some misgivings, in preorder (and if you preorder that, honestly, most of the net enough, by subscription). We'll postings, even in the final draft ask for expressions of interest in forms, have tended to be the next JL. As for editorial significantly flawed in lots of mail... depending on volume, the minor details of the language. eds as a committee may have to The netters catch most things, but start pooling resources. not everything, as in the example 87 of your *tosmabru error in your your developing and improving first attempt. Nick is the most (rapidly) exemplification of such voluminous writer we have, and in a good Lojban style. many ways the best in that he has I don't know what the solution demonstrated a command of many is. I want this type of movement idiosyncrasies of the language, to get started, and I want it to but I have found that, even after succeed. But I worry that it is he posts his 3rd or 4th revision premature, in that no one, he still has multitudinous little including myself, has the Lojban errors - things like failing to skill to be an editor of Lojban check the rafsi in a lujvo, errors text, as such an editor needs to of place structure, etc. He even be given the present skill level has a copy of the parser, but he among others in the community. has told me that he merely checks Yet, how will such an editor de- to make sure that the text parses, velop, if no one takes the first and doesn't always check to make step and tries. sure that it is parsing the way he Your ideas on this convoluted intends it to be read. Thus, for problem are of interest to me. example, you will find dozens of Please keep this between us for minor changes between his final now, since, as I said, I don't posted version of Aesop, and the want my doubts to stifle debate or version I finally printed in JL. the formation of a movement; I (And unfortunately Nick didn't write to you, because I sense in agree with all my changes, but your writings and activities of there wasn't time for him to the last month or two that my respond before publication.) comments are not going to Perhaps you can see what my discourage you. But others have misgiving is, then. Will the proven very sensitive to this proposed new publication have an whole silly concept of a "Central" editor who can and will check the (which concept I wish had never language usage as thoroughly as it evolved - I don't want to be a needs to be checked? How much figure of authority). authority will the editor have to correct and change misusages Veijo: Well, I think a without getting author approval. 'Central' can have a quite legiti- (Nick may have accepted my changes mate role - even in the long run. because I am 'of Central' whereas In Finland we have something he might be less tolerant of called 'the language office' which others changing his stuff. But cannot enforce anything but too much editorial/authorial follows the debates about the dillying over individual pieces of current usage, comments on it work will lead to an editor who every now and then and is there to has to spend an excessive amount answer questions about the correct of time in correspondence over a usage. Given the nature of Lojban relatively small amount of final I think we'll need a kind of text. The text being generated in clearing house for changes of the community now already exceeds grammar, place structures etc. to what Cowan and I can read and avoid anarchy before the language perform such editorial checking has stabilized. Also, I feel that on. a seal of approval on changes will And of course if the editor help to avoid some of the endless spends too much time editing, he/- and probably fruitless debates she gets to spend little time raging among the Esperantists. writing his own stuff (a problem I With people like you at the personally have experienced). Institute I have no fear of an Thus, while Nick compliments you overtly stifling influence. by asking you to be editor because I do not see the journal as you have a natural Lojbanic style, something completely independent. if you actually serve as editor, It will, of course, have an the community will be deprived of independent editorial policy. It 88 will, however, be a purely being forced to read what others literary journal not containing have written and to really think any theoretical material - at about it will give you a better least not in English, perhaps in perspective on what you yourself the long run we'll have Lojban are writing. None of us has a articles about stylistics, reviews literary Lojbanic background and etc. I think JL will remain the to find the language and refine proper publishing channel for the our own writing we must try to linguistic questions arising on explore as much of the text being the basis of the submitted written as possible. Nick's stories. proposal would help a lot. Well, I think we'll never catch Being set up as an example may all the errors but probably we'll be quite counterproductive. If be better off than most natural you, every time you sit down to language journals. I'm modifying write, feel that you must be able the editor program I'm using to create something exemplary, it presently (the one with hypertext will - sooner or later - capability) to do certain things. extinguish your creativity. You At the moment it has vocabulary must be able to allow yourself the and rafsi look-up capability (if luxury of also producing mediocre only I'd remember to use them or even poor text in order to be always) and I intend to add lujvo relaxed enough to produce checking next. something worth your while. Cf. Nick's posting: The main At the moment the journal can idea was that the workload would only succeed as a collective be divided between the ed in chief effort, along the lines Nick has and the ed du jour. The ed in pointed out. I think his plan chief would write the editorial, might work - with a few finishing define the profile of the journal touches. And I think we need the and accept the stories for journal to give the community a publication. The ed du jour would further reason d'etre as there are do the dirty work of preparing the very few people who'll remain stories for publication with all content to study a language which the associated fuss. Each issue isn't actually used as a language. might have a different ed du jour The main purpose of the journal - the qualified people taking would be to encourage people to turns - so nobody would be write in Lojban, to start with prevented from writing etc. for a simple things (I have even thought prolonged period of time. that good one-liners might be It is normal practice in worth publishing) and gradually to journals that the ed in chief de- proceed to more demanding forms of cides what gets published. If an expression. After 5, maybe 10 author doesn't want to change years we might have another his/her text to the extent that journal with more ambitious goals it'll pass the editorial board, - if the language really takes off the text doesn't get published. - but now we'd be content just to On the other hand the journal have a journal - 'la jbotur po'u cannot publish something against le jbocfi karni pe lei ckafybarja the authors will. I think the lisri' or what ever it would be journal ought to have a 'charter' called. defining the aims, the editorial The way I see it, we aren't in policy and the editorial any particular hurry. First we procedures. All the reviewing must present the idea in JL and would be public so we'd have less poll the opinions of the fear of unfair treatment. community. If the response is Editing detracts from writing positive, the real work would detracts from theoretical work start, say, in January and we detracts from studying detracts ought to have the material for the from ..., the never ending chain first issue prepared by the end of of choices. On the other hand, March. I think we'll have enough 89 material by then and ample time statements would contain a for the editing (at the present standard attachment declaring that rate we'll have lots of material the statement a) is based on the even before the end of the year). current parser and/or word list Preparing this first issue will and as such is "objective" or b) give us enough experience to is a considered opinion of so and define the schedule for the later so and as such doesn't constitute issues realistically. an absolute ruling/truth but a [Veijo's times in this paragraph recommendation. The main idea is were undoubtedly predicated on the that there would a body to which assumption that JL would be on you could address your questions schedule, which it has not been, and have reasonable expectations and that the volume of text that of getting a correct or at least was written in August would thoroughly considered answer. Of continue at that rate, which it course you can ask questions on also has not.] the net but then you may get a multitude of answers from which Lojbab: I agree that having to you must choose or get a single be exemplary stifle creativity and answer from somebody who just productivity. Why do you think I thinks he knows - the question and don't wish my job on anyone else? the answer having passed unnoticed It is a real bear being thought of by those who would be better qual- as the ultimate authority, and ified to answer - or even no an- having little errors from years swer at all. But how to avoid the ago held up as sanctified rulings. halo of Authority, that is the That is why I find "Central" a question. distressing concept, since 'Central' like the Pope, is never Lojbab: Which leads me to wrong and must always be right. mention the thing I was And I am not infallible. First talking to Nick about [see among equals is fine, and indeed below for this text]. One you-all who are most active on problem I've never seen a Lojban List tend to think of me solution for is how to this way. But the masses that are communicate with those not as active consider me much just short of trying to more of an Authority. use the language. You have noticed how little Veijo: I know and I certainly Sylvia and Dave post, and do not envy your position. (It's there are several others funny, I was actually considering that could probably post the phrase 'primus inter pares' in good stuff too, but they: some context in my previous letter a) don't try because the but then decided to avoid it as it debates that ensue are in- is sometimes also used to mean timidating; 'first among "equals"'.) Many - b) don't try because they see if not most - people have a need this enormous volume of for an authority and this ought to debate on each discussion, be taken into account. I think and put all their effort we'll have to consider the role into trying to understand and nature of the 'Central' in the it, not always with useful future. The way I see it now, we effect. should have a group of experienced I think that the tons of stuff on Lojbanists (6-12), geographically the coffee house has probably dispersed, in contact with each intimidated some people from other outside the Lojban list. speaking up, simply because the This group would, among other leadership is going at it so fast duties, work like the 'language and furious. office'. I mentioned giving out And while I am happy to see statements either as individuals yours and Nick's attempts at or as a collective. These supporting text in Lojban, they 1) 90 set a standard few feel that they no good if I invent a clever story can match, so they don't try and or a detailed description but lack 2) because they are in Lojban, the means of expressing it in people have to spend the time Lojban. First I must develop a needed to read and understand (if familiarity with the language - possible) what has been written to writing little banal first-grader make sure that what they write is stories if need be. The way I consistent with what has gone work maybe the reason for the hint before. The latter is the reason of lojbo style in the stories. that I was urging people to keep It's like putting together a to English for the most part puzzle or playing a game of Go. I during the project formation pick a key piece - an observative, phase. Nick did give an English a selbri, a sumti, an attitudinal translation, though colloquial. or maybe a complete bridi from You didn't, at least that I Nick's rant - put it on the board noticed. The newcomer right now and start attaching other pieces probably hasn't got a clue what is around it. The story/paragraph is going on, and what if anything has like an extended bridi with places been determined/decided about the to fill - only the places aren't project, and what details if any predefined but change all the time have been added since the initial I'm developing the story. So it posting. The latter is why Karen isn't a linear process where I'd wanted people to write rather have an idea and just started from lengthy English supporting text - the beginning - I can't sustain so that people know about what that yet. This way I can add just they are writing before they the kind of pieces I can manage - start, and get to save their or change my mind halfway through creativity for the stories. if the going gets too rough. We are still waiting reactions Veijo: Perhaps I ought to post to the views I presented an explanation of what I'm trying concerning the handling of the to accomplish with my little subject, we have this new idea of stories. There is a qualitative starting a newsletter and the difference between my two little related ideas concerning the etudes and Nick's rant. Nick's subject material and, of course, story needs the translation as it the additions to the English adds details to the original supporting text by Nick and some English description, my two other people. The adoption of the published stories, on the other supporting text will be a problem. hand, actually add nothing to it, It seems to me we are going to so it isn't so essential to need an editor just to select and understand them. unify the accumulating material. What I'd like to show to just Some of Nick's material is fine as the people who'd like to post a literary work but hardly stuff something but feel they aren't to encourage an apprentice to base advanced enough, is that it is a story upon. You know my views possible to take a small detail and misgivings about this approach (the smell of coffee, an inscribed and there is no need to reiterate, letteral) and develop a few bridi I guess. I know my limits and I concerning it. The story may be have found a way to cope - at quite banal, the main thing is to least at this stage. write something in Lojban - The 'etudes' I'm writing now do preferably without an original in not - or not exactly - fit within any natural language. My Lojban the original framework and perhaps isn't so advanced that I could it was an error to post them take an extended passage from the without comments to that effect English description and transcribe though at the time I was writing it into real Lojban. the first one I felt it was better This is why I wasn't so to avoid comments which might be concerned about invention - it's misinterpreted by the non-netters 91 as we still don't have their those of you who pour out reactions to the views I had pre- commentary on each others texts at sented earlier. high volume and at rapid response For me these etudes are a way to rates are doing something quite learn, to study, and comparable to different than we do when we read any other stuff people are these texts, possibly something posting. If we keep to the much better than what we do. original plan they are my way of Indeed, I find that while I can preparing for the project proper, translate quickly in my head, even if we, on the other hand, decide the smallest grammatical or rafsi to start the newsletter and change error brings me to a complete halt the scope of the material the way because I have no error recovery I have outlined, they may be capability - I have to stop and do eligible for publication. a detailed word-for-word translation to try to figure out Lojbab (originally private to what the speaker was trying to say Nick): I suspect that you won't in English before I can hope to see any of the inactive people figure out what the Lojban 'should contributing to the coffeehouse have been'.) for a while. That effort is doing Not sure what the solution to stunningly well, and has taken on all this is. It is great to see a life of its own independent of all of this on-line volume, and "Central" (thank God, since I people seem to be signing up to abhor the concept of a Lojban start learning more actively in 'Central' in the first place). the last two weeks since this But it is suffering from the same effort has come to life. But you problem that has afflicted almost need to know that those of lower all previous discussions of Lojban confidence or skill are unlikely text on net. Some few people, in to contribute for a while, and I'm this case apparently you, Veijo, not sure I have any ideas how to Ivan, Mark, and Colin, are remedy the situation. churning out so much text and commentary on text that the others Nick: I still don't know what with less time or less confidence we can do with beginners. I do cannot be other-than lurkers, note two things, however: there because they cannot read what has are beginners out there with been written as fast as new stuff enthusiasm, who don't blanche at is produced. I doubt that you the sight of Lojban sentences will see much from Sylvia, and you (Dryad, for example, saying "if I might even see less simply because don't understand a sentence, I'll everyone else is writing more. I let you know); and I'd count printed out your latest 'rant', Andrew Smith and Veijo Vilva and we will be going over it in amongst the beginners, the only Tuesday-night group next Tuesday, difference being that they have but Veijo's much shorter text was applied themselves to the lan- all that we covered last Tuesday, guage. It takes little more than so I suspect they may be working a month to turn from a lurker to a on your text for a few weeks. text-writer; barely three to When we read Lojban texts here, become a Jimbob, given the right every single word and every single background. As for incentive, the rafsi is looked up, and thus even Cafe is a great idea, allowing if you-and-others never made oodles of scope, and if it doesn't mistakes in these areas, this get people writing, nothing will. makes for very slow progress. (Nobody here has any confidence in Lojbab: With regard to the our ability to read texts in enthusiasm of beginners, I think Lojban as opposed to in literal that there are two or three kinds. English translation, which in my Some are inspired by seeing the case I can do in my head. I have quantity of text, others are long gotten the impression that intimidated. I am opposed to the 92 opening up of the coffee house never done so at all. I suspect project to 'anything goes', that the rest of us here in DC are because the worst problem we have the same way. We can converse in around here in getting people to the language comfortably (that is write is that we basically here Nora, Sylvia and I), but we do so are not creative writers - we need by not using lujvo unless the to be given a subject to write place structures and the rafsi- about - an anchor to build a ship meanings are rather obvious from around. I can urge all that I the context, because though I can want, but the more wide open the make lujvo in my head, the others subject matter is, the more people have to stop and look them up, here get writer's block because which kills conversation. Thus there are too many options and too your rather more literary style is little creativity - so they go an effort to read - we have to back to translation. If indeed check everything thoroughly before there has been such an opening up we have any idea what you are of the project, as I understand saying. Since you and others who what you write, those who proposed post to the net are predominantly it may take it back and make a writers rather than speakers of smaller, more restricted sub- the language, this stylistic project that they are comfortable difference is rather difficult at with, because otherwise they won't the moment to overcome - you are write anything. (You will recall used to taking the time to analyze from my original posting that stuff on-line that we cannot and Karen Stein, who really took do not do. By comparison, I charge here at LogFest on this suspect it will take us 2 weeks thing was adamant about the need merely to go through your latest to fully define the coffeehouse text and understand it as Lojban. setting and the common characters Part of the effect of our in English so that everyone different styles of language use understood the common ground is that people who do all their before they started to write. She work on-net are tolerant of is a creative writer, but she said different types of errors than us that she could not write the kind conversationalists. I find that of stories she wants without your errors caused by not looking having this firm structure to up rafsi and gismu bring me to a build off of - at least not if she complete halt, because I cannot wanted to end up with anything error-correct those type of errors that would tie in to what anyone quickly. Yet people seem to read else decided to write. And the and respond to your stuff with group-ness of the enterprise was comments at a variety of levels clearly the thing that excited her quite quickly compared to what we about it.) manage here. They seem to As for the 'who is writing' concentrate on tanru and lujvo, question - the people here are and kind of absorb the grammar in totally overwhelmed even by the passing having figured out the two pieces of text that have been meaning by correlating the tanru posted. People here feel the need into a gestalt meaning that to digest word-for-word everything dominates the sentence. that gets written before Meanwhile, we get stuck on the responding to it. Both Cowan and missing "cu" that leads to total I, arguably among the most skilled nonsense. in the language, especially The point of this is that if technically, no longer even bother Cowan and Lojbab can be in- to try to read Lojban text that is timidated out of trying to read posted. It takes too much work; your stuff, that should tell you we file it away under the 'someday something about what happens to ...' file, whereupon I eventually David Young, with a gismu pull some of it out when I go to vocabulary of 100 after a long produce a JL issue; Cowan has summer of LogFlash, and Guy 93 Garnett, who is still stuck at .i rancindu jubme around the 50 level, and has to .i seldandu lo vrici to'erninda'i look up virtually every gismu even noi mi na djuno zo'e ke'a after the whole summer of classes. .i selzvati ji'ipano zutse remna People here, being grossly mono- .i srotanxe loi ckafi lei mudri lingual, get really stuck on lack .i vrici of vocabulary. Until we get people .i mi visyfacki fi pa lo poi loi up to a comfortable vocabulary remna na zutlamji ke'a ku'o level, no one will write anything, jubme goi ko'a and people will tend to avoid even .i mi co'a zutlamji ko'a trying to read things. .i ko'a lamji le nunjupca'u But keep things going. It may .i le jukpa cu selviska gi'e not be what people had in mind, jupfinti de.a'ucu'i but things in Lojban are finally .i mi pensi.a'e loi selpinxe co taking on a life of their own, ckafi.au which is the important thing. .i ckafypanci fi mi.ui ________________________ .i ckafypanci .i .ui.o'u Text and comments elucidating .i sriku'a further description of Scenario #2 Nick: Vilva arrives in the [Translations, where they exist, ckafyzda. Finally! It's such a and commentaries on the language good navigation too, I feel guilty aspects of the Lojban writings for proceeding to propose some will be found in the translations fleshing out of the scenery in section. A computer-generated English. And of course, the English gloss of Veijo's two Lojbanisations of our English writings will also be found there. specs should not be translations, No proper English translation but transformations, as Veijo has exists for either Veijo's writings rightly pointed out. Here goes or Iain's second writing.] [italicized text is from Description #2]: Veijo's original text, mentioned several times above, was the first As I walked under the crossed attempt to add to the initial climbing axes, and into the description #2 provided as a coffeehouse, I felt I was in a starting point. Veijo's place designed to give one the commentary above indicated that he feeling of putting on an old feels that his text adds no new comfortable pair of shoes. information to the coffee house description. On the other hand, Veijo speaks of ".ui.o'u"; his attempt to do a simple Lojban that's the feeling I want in the writing based on that description cafe too. A boisterous place, may provide some indication of how sure, with lots of emphasis on the people will use the descriptions "ka vrici", but also a very provided. Furthermore, Nick and "mela'ezo.i'u" place. The door is Iain's writings below reference nothing too fancy; plain, wooden, back to things Veijo says in this touch heavy, not pretentious. The piece. climbing axes certainly have been positioned informally (maybe even le la vei,on ckafybarja not perfectly symmetrically?) srinuntroci xipa xici The benches were made of old soft ni'o sriku'a oak, in which many tales and .i ckafybarja symbols had been carved. On the .i mi zvati le vorstu gi'e bench I was seated was the terpanci loi ckafi da.uicai inscription: "Members of the .i mi ca ze'upunai.oi sumne da first sandpit expedition to find .i mi dzukla le jbustu gi'e the first digger, or traces ctacarna thereof - 198?" The table also 94 bore other marks of former patrons staircase would be a touch too who had drank their selections and imposing. transcribed their feelings with pitons. Underneath these visible artifacts were the dour reminders of the What with the suggested rural primary business of this setting and the benches, I'm put establishment-coffee. There were in mind of soft damp oak, and full wooden bins of coffee from murky late afternoon light. I just about every place in the don't think the place need be world, with or without caffeine. spotlighted, in any case; the The cook was visible to all and in can't-look-outside windows will the process of developing the do. There's not just tales and latest creation on the current symbols, of course; there's a lot menu, and not without some debate of good old fashioned graffiti (no about the amount of spice the need to be too solemn about it.) particular dish required. The place is, I suggest, small and intimate, with the "vrici" The menu is on display just to paraphernalia on the walls the right of the partition behind haphazard and competing for space, which the cook is visible; rather than formally set out, handwritten, with the le'avla museum style. No more than ten defined at the bottom of the list benches (reasonably sized, in the six source languages. The though). coffee bins are along the walls, I take it? (Beneath the artifacts.) The walls were littered with The waiter does some serving, but climbing apparel and debris in for the most part sits with the what might charitably have been customers and socialises. The termed a collage. cook has most of his/her arguments with the dishwasher, sometimes See? I visualised correctly :) carrying the arguments outside the And some of the parts of the kitchen and asking for support in collage are downright incongruous. his debates amongst hapless I would not be surprised, for customers, slapstick-style (hm, example, if a certain pea on a I'm going against the rotation cushion lies in a corner, with thing - others may countersupport some inscription to do with a it); I don't know what a busboy is Kunstkammer. Several postcards, either; and the Manager (and the too (I don't think this is being sixth man/woman out for the night) too explicitly outside-world- sit together and overlook the bound), from Cafe Cairo, The scene. I don't know if it's Loglan Sogrun, Burnley F.A... worthwhile giving the Manager his/her own table, and a small There were the rusting remains of table rather than a bench at that; pitons and hooks abutting but I would like the Manager to be practically new lengths of the a bit more formal than the rest, a latest high test rope. Opposite voice of authority amidst the the door from which I had entered chaos, and somewhat set apart - a was a ladder - a climbing ladder, big gun in a story, held in of course. The ladder reached to reserve. the ceiling, and a solid-looking This might be a biiiiit silly, trap door that made me wonder of but maybe a small bookcase of NL the unknown relics that lay dictionaries and Lojban references beyond, and the stories they might on the side? And the cafe, I hold. thiiiiink, should be a bit of a bastion of lojbanism, or at least The ladder stays, but it has lojbanism-aware - which would give nothing to do with "le lisri be le us the opportunity of satirising serti"; an imposing marble traits of the current or future 95 community in it. The visitors, of better, and "ckafybriju" is right course, don't have to particularly out. Aha! "ckafybarja"! That's like or think about Lojban - it's really much better, I think. by no means an exclusive venue. "barja" even has a place for what's served, which is filled, in This happy riot provided the the lujvo/tanru, by "ckafi" counterpoint to the hissing, and (though other things may be served boiling of a near endless stream as well). I think this is an of coffee beans in response to the important change to make, even if always cold, often frustrated, and "ckafyzda" has acquired some very determined clientele. . . sacredness. It's only a week or two old, and it's broken. Please Damn! I knew they were cold and let us switch to "ckafybarja". damp! :) OK. If you all don't blow up at Veijo replies: In this case I this, we can go navigating some definitely wanted the connotation more... of dwelling or even home-coming. I was thinking along the lines of Veijo, on the coffee bins, a cafe where people are not wrote: ".i patxu loi ckafi lei perhaps quite dwelling but mudri" spending a lot of time telling stories and having conversations. Colin: Why "lei mudri"? At least in some parts of Europe Veijo: I'd say they are cafes (especially student cafes) wooden but can't be sure and like are almost a second home these days. (The coffee? to some people. :) Also implied was a cultural Colin: I don't get Veijo's answer dwelling place. to my question here, so probably "ckafybarja" is better as a he didn't understand my question. general lujvo (and corresponds to I was querying "lei" as opposed to usage in some languages, e.g. "loi". Finnish before American English Veijo: I tried to use 'the domination) but... mass described ...' There is nothing sacred about instead 'the mass really "ckafyzda" but it may match the is ...' to express underlying ideas much better. If concisely the idea that we are stacking the place with the bins looked like wood connotative paraphernalia we may but might be something as well tack on a few more else on closer inspection. connotations. Mark on 'ckafyzda': Veijo in Mark responds: Sorry, I'm [an early version of] his first unconvinced. You say you're text used: "ni'o zdani" trying to get warm fuzzy feelings I might have thought "dinju" of homecoming by using "zdani", would be a better choice. "zdani" but "zdani" doesn't have that implies some sort of dwelling- meaning either. The lair of a place, and you're leading into dragon is a "zdani". A beehive is this with these observatives as "A a "zdani". "zdani" means "place house. A coffee-house...", where of residence/habitation of....", habitation isn't implied. For not implying any hominess nor lack that matter, is "ckafyzda" thereof. Even if the manager malglico? It expands to "ckafi chances to live in the place, (and zdani" = "coffee-ish nest/house/- thus it may be proper to describe bivouac/dwelling-place". Most it as a "zdani" incidentally), coffeehouses aren't inhabited by what we are describing the place anyone, they're solely places of as is a tavern or bar or other business. "ckafyzarci" implies a sort of informal restaurant more of a store where you buy wherein coffee is served. That coffee beans to me, so that's no is, "le barja zo'e loi ckafi" -> 96 "le ckafi barja" -> "le ckafy- later and the images of times long barja". Now, the proprietor(s) of past. the place, perhaps, might try naming it "la ckafyzda" (note the Veijo to Mark about coffee and article), as that would be a tea: Used to be a tea-drinker tolerable name for such a place, myself but Finland is one of but as a description, it doesn't heaviest coffee drinking countries wash. I don't care how much time in the world and getting a decent people spend there: call it what brew of tea turned out to be too it is - "lo barja". much of an effort in the long run Connotations are fine in so I gave up around the age of 25 describing the place, in the ob- and started drinking coffee. I jects you put in there, etc., but still enjoy properly brewed decent if you call something by what it teas, though. isn't, people won't know what Now about "loi selpinxe ckafi". you're talking about. "ckafyzda" Does it bring to mind the beverage would imply maybe the home of a or the coffee beans/powder the coffee grower (rotten lujvo for beverage is made of? I had the it, though), or a coffee-colored beverage in mind and I want to house (also not so great), or a have the gismu "ckafi" in a place where coffee lives (decent position where I can tack the lujvo) - yes, that's probably the attitudinal on it. Well, now I most likely interpretation. Just have it: "loi selpinxe co as "remzda" is used to mean ckafi.au". What do you think? "house" (i.e. typical habitation Better? Or was it you just of human beings - some cultural couldn't imagine someone thinking bias there, no?), "ckafyzda" seems more the beverage than the actual to conjure up some kind of act of drinking? Many a time have habitation for coffee (as if it I been sitting and enjoying the were a living being). Maybe those fragrant smell of tea, this being big burlap sacks that coffee beans an essential part of the total are kept in, or a cannister on enjoyment when the tea isn't just your shelf. In either case, the something nondescript. Same goes word would be very poetic, but for coffee. There are brews and more for its implication that BREWS. And think of the Japanese coffee "lives" anywhere than for tea ceremony, to take an extreme connotations of hominess on example. In the ceremony the act "zdani". of drinking is really almost superfluous. Veijo to Colin about the coffee: I'm not too keen a coffee Nick was next to enter the drinker. The smell came in kind coffee house [A free translation of naturally with the coffee bins of Nick's text will be found on and all, perhaps childhood page 60]: memories of freshly ground coffee at my aunt's shop where I used to .i mi se lidne la vei,on. hang a lot. If the specs had ba'acu'i lenu nerkla le la loblaz. called for a taverna I'd have kafybarja .i mi sutra joiku'i.o'a thought of something else to fill banli cadzu pa'o la'ele cravro noi the first 10 seconds. The sense tilju je jadycau .i lenu mi pu of smell carries a lot of kargau le vorme cu mlirocnandu connotations and brings fore gi'e sacri'a lenu mi catke .i le memories... The smell of te vorme cu se gusni lo lecydo'i7 pezyckafi is the first reminder telling you that you have come (back) to where you belong. You ____________________ can't put your finger on it during the first few moments but it hits 7Lojbab: Nick kind of jumped the you, sometimes like a sledgeham- gun, using the rafsi "do'i" for mer. The visual recognition comes the new gismu "donri" ("daytime") prior to either being announced 97 milxe gi'e se kufra cmalu .i je'eki'e pendo .u'u si panomei sa'enai.a'acu'i loi jubme ba'edo'u.u'u .u'ise'i go'i lo .i mi zutse ne'a lo na'e se tsejbi tcati li'uЇ .i le be'ipre goi jubme {poi diklo le kumfa kojna ko'a cu bacru ®lu go'i lo tcati pe gi'e stula'i le vorme ku'o} gi'e le'a ?ma li'uЇ .i mi ®lu .aicu'i catlu loi zvapre .iza'a la do ?ma stidi li'uЇ .i ko'a ®lu vei,on. zutse vi le ragve kojna .e'a la kukytcat. noi vi purlamrai gi'enaipe'i zvaju'o mi .i ra terve'u li'uЇ .i mi ®lu .i'e ko zanfri .i'e.o'enai loi panci be bevri le la kukytcat. tcati li'uЇ loi vi ckafi .i mi zmanei loi .i ko'a bacru ®lu baziba'o go'i tcati gi'e.o'o.aucu'i denpa lenu .oinai li'uЇ gi'e cliva mu'i lenu lo djabe'ipre cu jundi mi .i bevri nagi'e tavla lo drata zutse milxe savru gi'e ruble nungei .ipujecabo lu'i le jukpa kuce le .iku'i mi cabdei me ®lu .i'inai patlu'i lu'u nevi le jupku'a cu li'uЇ vau.u'uru'ero'a .i lei cladu joi selzdi dabysnu .i le bitmu cu se jadni loi carmi bo jukpa cu so'uroi batkla gi'e te vrici joi na'e simlanxe be ja'i le jivrei le se casnu fo lei zvati tcaci .i le re cpare ka'amru poi .i.aucai mi na ve preti .i le simkruca se punji fi le cravro barjyjatna noi dasni lo jikri'i gapru na minrysarxe .u'iru'e .i taurgunma ca tavla la vei,on. .i na go'i fa loi drata ke bitmu se mi xance rinsa la vei,on. i ko'a punji ne mu'u lo dembi poi vreta spuda rinsa gi'e nupre lenu bazi lo kicne ku'o jo'u lo slabu kansa mi kei mi .i loi cnino cu tcityta'o ne secu'u ®lu vi xagrai nerkla gi'e cladu rinsa loi no'e loi tauzba pe levi tcadu li'uЇ cnino noi na'oca'o te lisri .i mi ge'ujo'u lo befydai noi te ciska na .ai cabdei ve lisri .i mi zo sindereluud. .i mi ca jundi le .e'icu'i cabdei xebni la fraktur. jbusfe pe mi .i te ciska so'ida __________________________ ne bau la lojban. e la bangrnesperanto .e le glibau Veijo followed up with a second .e.ueru'e le dotco .i le dotco cu text, in part reacting to Nick's se ciska ta'i la fraktur .i mi effort. This may show the type of xebni la fraktur .i mi djica interaction between characters of {lenu ciska fi le jbusfe fe ®lu mi different writers that may be la fraktur xebni mi'e kilrois. possible, even if no one goes so li'uЇ kei} gi'enai ca ponse lo ve far as to initiate a direct ciska befi loi mudri .i mi ka'e dialogue between the characters (a lebna lo cpare ja bisli kilmru le possibility that Nick comments on zunle bitmu .i mi co'i morji le afterwards) [See page 58 for a xajmi pe lei bisli kilmru jgari computer generated gloss]: relcisyge'upre .iku'i lenu le xajmi cu jboselsku na se snada mi le la vei,on ckafybarja .isemu'ibo mi pensi sanga le se srinuntroci xire xire finti be la suZAN.vegas. be'o pe me'e ®lu le la tom. gusta li'uЇ ni'o mi penzutse.o'u .i lenu go'i cu se dicra lenu lo .i to'erninda'i fa lemi jubme djabe'ipre noi .uacu'i xindo cu .i ciska da le jbusfe .ije mi klama mi gi'e cisma bacru ®lu catlu da.a'u cticpe ?ma doi lojbo ga'icu'i .i lerfu la fraktur.ue li'uЇ .i mi co'a se spaji catlu .i mi morji fi loi lerfu be la le be'ipre .i mi nelci le be'ipre fraktur. .i mi mutce nelci co se trina le .i morji be'ipre ja'e lenu mi na spuda ri .i mi puzuki zvati le ckule gi'e .iseki'ubo ri cmila joiku'i milxe caca'a tcidu bo se fanza bacru ®lu be'ebe'e .i mi tcidu le cfika be le ze xaupre zo'o ctidji ja pixydji ?ma bruna bei la Aleksis.kivis. li'uЇ .i mi spuda bacru ®lu po'u le natmytercfi .i le poi le drata be mi cu tcidu __________________________________ fi ke'a ku'o selpapri cu te prina publicly or appearing in any lists loi that people can look up. 98 lerfu be la antik. le vorme fi'o te mlixra le janco .i lemi selpapri goi ko'a te prina ku'o) sera'a ?ma pezyjicla li'uЇ loi lerfu be la fraktur. .i mi vi le zdani pu zutse co .i lenu tcidu de pe ta'i la cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci fraktur. kei pu nandu mi gi'e ca poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la frili vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi .i mi djica lenu tcidu fi ko'a kei ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u mu'i lenu lemi patfu la *jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi puzu prina loi lerfu loi ko'a vi ra .i ®lu ?ma ?mo li'uЇ na se papri spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la .i lemi patfu ze'u prina fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. .i lenu ri go'i kei nanca li vobi no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a .i kiku mi catlu le vi lerfu be la lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a ku'o fraktur. gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da no'u .i lerfu ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i bevri .i bacru.ue zo coi loi ckafi mi .i barjyjatna.a'a ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e .i la nitcion. co'ava se zvaju'o loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku mi zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o ®lu le .i ra xance rinsa mi .ije mi spuda cmacrnalgebra li'uЇ .i mi nelci rinsa le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la .i la nitcion. caca'a xebni la vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a fraktur. pensi .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai Nick comments: There's going to ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u be a good tale, I think, in an le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli old-timer at the cafe explaining mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu .i how the devil the Fraktur got la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la there in the first place... lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati I feel veeery hesitant in any la jbolanzu interaction with the staff with no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co their personas still not settled. veirgau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda If people don't like the Manager carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla (and "jatna" does seem to be the mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le only word we have for "boss" or jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu fa lenu "manager") being imperious, ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i they'll be very unhappy if I mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi portray him like that. So for bazi facki le krinu be lenu now, let's not probe into the sutrygau background characters too deeply. _______________________________ The even greater danger is in sketching interactions with Real Nick: Very cool, Iain. I Life people. Veijo and I are wonder why we got you to the about to start talking, and I'd *Jbolaz? Hmmm? :) like neither of us to make [Lojbab: With any luck, the potentially annoying presumptions rest of us will find out in about the other's persona. So one JL18.] should be wary in this kind of thing. ______________________________ _______________________ [Next follows the first text of Iain then joined in with the the type that was actually asked following [a rough translation of for - an English elaboration of the Lojban will be found on page setting and/or characters. Both 63]: David Bowen and Veijo Vilva, whose effort follows David's, have la jbolanzu kafybarja proposed characters for the cafe staff. You are welcome, indeed ®lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e encouraged, to comment on these, (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a 99 possibly suggesting changes or English shows most of the signs of elaborations, or to propose your British English, it shows no signs own - remember that we need a half of any other European accent being dozen or so to staff the cafe. mixed in. His German, French and We also need lots more detail on Italian are equally the layout of the cafe, what is indistinguishable from those located where, what is the size of spoken by native speakers and he the various rooms, whether the has shown no problems conversing 'cooking-space' (as it was put in with visitors from other parts of Veijo's first writing) is a Europe and Asia. separate room, etc. All submissions (subject to Veijo: This is a description of space) received prior to 5 March la xiron, the first co-worker at (15 March if computer-readable - la jbolanzu - Cafe Jbolanzu. No via email or MS-DOS diskette) will one knew his real name and the appear in JL18, after which will name he had picked for himself commence voting if we get too many after learning Lojban was a kind or too-conflicting descriptions.] of pun - if you bothered to play games with names. I don't tell David Bowen: The owner and much about the other members of manager [or perhaps just the owner the personnel as I didn't know or just the manager] of the Cafe them so well and, besides, I want Chalet is a man of mystery. It's to leave the pleasure of easy enough to see him, either describing them to the other hiking among the hills surrounding patrons of the Cafe. There were the village or conversing with the quite a few of us literary types customers as he makes his rounds. spending our evenings there so But any questions about his life someone else ought recollect before coming to the village are enough of that time to relate met with vague replies and a quick about it. shift in the topic of I do not yet know whether xiron conversation. There are stories will interest you enough to make that he used to be a climber him a permanent member of the himself. A climbing accident, so staff. So I shall tell you mostly the story goes, which killed his about the first impressions he lover while the two of them were made on people and add more attempting a major climb led to details later on if required. his retirement from the sport. It _______ is said that much of the equipment which decorates the interior of He arrived one dark, windy the Chalet is his. evening in November. No one In appearance he's a big man, noticed him at first. He was just with light brown hair and green a tall shadow at the doorway, eyes. In summer his ruddy standing there, quietly observing complexion turns to a golden tan the room. He stood there for a and his hair lightens to the point while, motionless, as if half where it almost matches his skin asleep. There were groups of color. On the slopes, he is often people sitting at the tables, seen in lederhosen and a green drinking coffee, chatting with alpine hat. While in the Chalet, each other. Someone glimpsed at these are replaced by conservative the door, started to turn away but gray or navy business suits. Only changed his mind and took a closer his bright paisley ties and an look. Others noticed his curios occasional brightly colored vest gaze and also turned to look. A show hints of the boy hidden silence fell. A stranger wasn't beneath the serious businessman. too common those days. The man at Attempts to determine his the door seemed to wake up. He background from his speech have took off his hat, wiped his been unsuccessful. Though his forehead with a sleeve and started towards the nearest unoccupied 100 table with a heavy step. He The stranger was looking at the hesitated for a moment before approaching man. Japanese? No, sitting down, glanced appre- more likely Chinese. What was he hensively around and threw down doing in these parts? Well, none the rucksack from his shoulder. of his business. He had been lis- His hand was gently stroking the tening to the sound of the locals wood of the table and he had again talking. There was a curious note a far-away look on his face. A in their speech and he had been murmur of voices began to fill the unable to recognize the few words air as people lost their initial he was able to discern. He just interest in the newcomer. Only hoped the Chinaman would be able the most curious ones were to communicate in some language he stealing glimpses at him every now knew. and then. "Good evening, sir. Welcome to There was nothing special about Cafe Jbolanzu. Quite chilly the stranger except perhaps his outside, isn't it? Would you like quietness. He seemed to be to have something hot to drink? content just to sit there and Coffee or tea perhaps?" observe the other patrons. He was Something in the appearance of a dark, slim man of indeterminate the stranger made the owner choose age and origin, face English instead of Lojban to expressionless but not inscrutable address him. A slight change in in an oriental way. He had the attitude of the stranger's obviously come afoot as his boots shoulders seemed to indicate were covered with dust but somehow relief. The Chinaman felt easier. he didn't seem to be an outdoor There was an almost type. Veins were visible on the imperceptible delay before the man backs of his hands but the hands answered. He wasn't actually were soft, apparently not used to surprised, it just always took him manual work. moment to switch into English. The owner of the Cafe was busy Now he knew he'd be able to cope. in the kitchen and hadn't noticed "Oh, yes. Good evening. Yes, the arrival of the stranger. He it is. Could you bring me some himself had drifted quite recently tea, please. Have you got any into the village and hadn't yet green teas? Gunpowder? I'd succeeded in hiring anyone to help really appreciate that. A whole at the Cafe so he had to serve at pot of it." the tables in addition to cooking. There was no smile on his face Presently he lifted the frying pan even when he was speaking, just a to the edge of the stove, wiped relaxed softness. He was at peace his hands and started his round with himself and had obviously no among the patrons. need to affect others one way or He noticed the stranger almost another. The Cafe owner felt immediately. The stranger was strangely at home with the man. looking straight at him but gave "Well, I think I have got some no sign at all of noticing him. tucked away somewhere. Isn't much There was no rudeness in the demand for it, you know. Will stranger's gaze when he at last take a while. Thank you, sir." noticed the approaching Cafe The Chinaman left with a slight owner, just quiet waiting, no bow. The man sat waiting, still smile, no irritation. The Cafe stroking the table every once in a owner felt a slight discomfort while, regarding the others which reminded him of the times he absentmindedly. The din of the had had to address the head master conversations grew louder and his at school. Had someone asked he thoughts wandered. would have been unable to tell There had been a time when he what exactly was the reason for had preferred quieter places, much this uneasiness. quieter. He remembered a particular one in some provincial capital in the East. It was a 101 large tea-house with tables for "Excellent. Thank you. Maybe more than a hundred people. He in a moment. Tell me, I've been had spent many an evening sitting wondering, what is the language there alone at his table sipping these people are talking in? Who his tea and thinking. There were are they really?" two other regular customers, the The Chinaman paused for a moment three of them coming there for a before answering. He wasn't quite year or so a few times a week. sure what to tell the stranger. Each had his own corner, they He himself was just beginning to never spoke to each other during grasp the language spoken here and all the time he frequented the had to formulate his answer most place. The Japanese waitresses carefully. sometimes told the latest news of "Well, sir, the language is Sensei-san, Teacher, as they called Lojban but I guess the name called one of the patrons. It was tells you nothing. I myself knew really very discreet, no gossiping quite many languages before coming at all, they'd say: "Sensei-san is here but I'd never heard about it. tired today. He's had a rough It is a constructed language not day." or something like that. And related to any natural language - he'd sit there sipping his living or dead. Hard to explain Japanese tea, eating perhaps a in a few words if you aren't a cupful of rice with a slice of linguist. These people are cucumber dipped in soy sauce and practitioners and students of looking at Sensei-san correcting Lojban who gather here to tell exam papers. It was a quiet time stories or just to chat with each in his life. Later came more other. As a matter of fact, the turbulent times but they too had name of this Cafe is 'la jbolanzu' passed into semi-oblivion. He'd which means something like 'The been wandering around for years Clan of Lojban'. It seemed to be now, observing people, almost a fitting name as most of my always an outsider. patrons are Lojbanists." There was a sluggish discussion Lojban. The stranger looked going on at many tables. Quite around. Not an ethnic language - many people were just listening to that explained many things which the others and most of the had been bothering him already speakers didn't seem to be very before he had reached the Cafe. fluent. It was as if they had Lojban. The name brought no just recently learned the recollections what so ever into language. A few were narrating a his mind even though he had been longer story but they were quite studying linguistics sometime in often interrupted by one or the remote past. Languages had another of the listeners who always interested him and he knew seemed to be asking something but a few words of quite many lan- curiously there was no change in guages. Some of the languages he their intonation. The stranger had learned while wandering from was perplexed. Where had he place to place in search of - stumbled? well, he really didn't know what. The Chinaman returned with a Some he had studied at various large teapot and a Chinese rice schools and colleges during the cup. He put the cup in front of more quiet epochs of his life. the stranger, poured some olive "I see. Thanks." green tea into it and set the pot He had done many things and on the table. studied many subjects during the "Here you are, sir. Anything years since leaving home - some else, sir?" things out of necessity, some out The man raised the cup to his of curiosity. Here was something lips, took a sip and sighed. He new. He hesitated. He had then lowered the cup and looked up intended to continue across the to the waiting Cafe owner. mountains in the morning. He wasn't exactly going anywhere but 102 there were some old cities in the Newcomers often at first thought Plains and he had thought he'd he was unfriendly as he didn't spend a few days just enjoying the smile when he greeted them and atmosphere there. It was a long later on many felt the same time since he had sat in a Bier- uneasiness the Chinaman had felt a stube drinking a proper black year ago. Perhaps it was the draught beer, sweet with the taste initial impression of self-as- of caramel malt. But now he had suredness and reservedness which bumped into something unexpected. only gradually was replaced by a The Chinaman was leaving. more realistic, more mixed one. Someone had beckoned him to a Xiron was mostly very quiet and table across the room. The even later on in the evenings when stranger nodded just slightly. the staff was mixing with the He was eyeing the other customers he'd just sit there and customers with a renewed interest. listen to others talking, rarely He raised the cup and smelled the expressing himself. When he did fragrance of the tea while there was a certain finality in pondering the situation. He'd what he said. He might err but have to find some employment if he mostly his facts and opinions had was to stay for more than a few a ring of truth about them which days. Perhaps the Chinaman could made it hard for the others to help? He was prepared to do disagree. Sometimes he got on his almost anything within his hobbyhorse and then there was no capacity for board and lodgings keeping him. Luckily the and a reasonable amount of free occasions were quite rare. time. He'd stay till he felt it He seemed to know very much or was again time to go. at least of very many different The Chinaman had apparently gone subjects though if you poked to the kitchen which wasn't deeper you might find that visible to where the stranger was sometimes he knew just a handful sitting. The questions would have of key facts, nothing more to wait. An elderly man at a profound. He didn't often nearby table stood up and volunteer the information. It was approached him... almost as if he had considered ______ many things not worth mentioning without a specific reason. Just A year had gone by. He called knowing wasn't enough. himself xiron now. There was no The Chinaman now liked him. specific reason for the name - he Many times they had sat late at had just made it up one night in night quietly sipping tea, not early June when he was trying to talking much, each deep in memorize a batch of rafsi. Though reverie. Both had seen a lot of names had no inherent meaning you world and contemplated many things could always play with them, with a certain polite amusement. divide them in different ways - Not many words were needed to even ungrammatically. xi-ro-n, convey ideas and somehow Lojban xi-ron, xir-on. The last variant suited their purposes extremely had a Japanese rafsi meaning well. 'sound' at the end. He would play the games mainly in his thoughts _________________________ as he wasn't exactly of the playful type. He would rarely Following are 2 Lojban pieces, venture to play with others and the first two 'stories' told in few would have considered him a the cafe. A translation of Mark's member of the species Homo ludens, story will be found in the playing man. translation section (pg. 63). He had made few friends during Iain's story has not been his year at the Cafe and no real translated, though there are some enemies though there were people comments in the translation who didn't like him very much. section. 103 fi mi fe lei je'a glare ku'i ckafi Mark: li'uЇ le bevri be lei ckafi be'o ni'oni'o vanci .icabo nalcladu goi ko'i ne'i le ckafybarja .i le bi'u8 .i ko'i cusku ®lu .u'u .ie remna cu klama mo'ine'i ra .i ga'inai li'uЇ gi'ebabo lebna le ko'a goi ra zutse ne'a lo jubme kabri .i ko'a cpedu loi tcati le .i ko'i krefu klama gi'e bevri lei kafybarja se jibri .i ba so'o ckafi vau ba so'o mentu .i ko'e mentu ko'a se dunda loi tcati gi'e krefu pencu le kabri .i ko'e co'aru'inai pinxe ri cusku ®lu .i'esai ba'e ti ku'i cu ni'o ko'a ca lenu ko'a pinxe loi je'a glare ckafi li'uЇ .i ko'e tcati po ko'a cu zgana lenu le gleki pinxe lei ckafi po ko'e bi'u nanmu cu se dunda lei ckafi no'i ko'a zgana la'eso'odi'u .i poi ra pu cpedu ke'a .ije le ba so'o mentu ko'a tavla le nanmu goi ko'e cu pencu le kabri bi'unai selpinxe bevri goi ko'i poi se nenri lei ckafi ku'o le .i ko'a cusku ®lu .ia do pu bevri degji gi'enai pinxe lei ckafi lei naldrata ckafi ta vau ?xu .ije mu'i zo'epela'edi'u ko'e li'uЇ cusku ®lu .o'onai ju'ido'u ko .i ko'i cusku ®lu go'i .o'unairo'a lebna lei vi ckafi gi'ebabo bevri .u'uro'a li'uЇ .i ko'a cusku ®lu ko .i'i na jikca ____________________ dunku .i mi puzuze'u se jibri loinu bevri loi selpinxe vi lo 8Lojbab: This text uses "bi'u" gusta .iseki'ubo mi djuno tu'a le and "bi'unai" which are not on any do se zukte .i da poi prenu cu published word lists yet with the genai pinxe lei ckafi gi pencu le current meaning. They are used to kabri gi'e na'e djica tu'a lei discursively to mark pieces of the ckafi ki'u lo za'i na'e sentence as 'new information' or pe'ise'inai glare .ije semu'i 'old information'. New loinu da minde mi lenu basti lei information is that which the ckafi loi glare ckafi kei kei mi speaker is trying to communicate lebna lei ckafi gi'e na'o denpa to the listener, while old in- fu'i so'e mentu tezu'e lenu tu'a formation is that which the lei ckafi cu glaryri'a le kabri speaker assumes that the listener kei fo lenu krefu dunda lei knows from background or context. naldrata ckafi .i za'a do panra Normally this distinction is con- zukte .i la'ede'u ve ctuca fu veyed in natural languages through tu'a le slabu lisri be le bebna word order (putting new in- seljibri ka'u li'uЇ formation either at the beginning .i ko'i cusku ®lu le lisri ki'a or the end of the sentence, typi- li'uЇ cally, depending on the language .i ko'a cusku ®lu .ue do punai ?xu and the situation), but people ve lisri fu ri li'uЇ want to have the option in Lojban .i ®lu noroi ve lisri li'uЇ of using word order for other .i ®lu .ai mi te lisri .i tu'e purposes including simply ka'u da'i puzuki da te bende le re expressing the place structures in seljibri .i fo'a goi le te bende numerical order. ca le fanmo be le jeftu cu pleji Marking a "le" description sumti le se jerna le re seljibri no'u as new information on its first lu'i le prije seljibri goi fo'e occurrence in text, for example, ge'u jo'u le bebna seljibri goi means that the speaker has a fo'i .i le se jerna cu rupnu li specific and definite someone/- panono .ijesemu'ibo fo'a pleji something in mind, but that he lei jdini be ta'i le pelji jdini doesn't expect the listener to fo'e .e fo'i .i fo'e ckire fo'a know which someone/something is gi'ebabo cliva gi'e gleki ki'u being referred to at that point. lenu le jdini cu se vamji li Without "bi'u", the listener might su'orau wonder why he can't figure out .i fo'i na'e gleki .i cusku ®lu which one the speaker is talking .o'onai mi to'e lazni gunka fi'o about. 104 te bende do ca piro le jeftu .i .i jetnu fa lenu ko'e na kakne do pleji levi malpelji .i'enaisai lenu tavla .ijeku'iseki'unaibo mi mi .i le'o ko pleji fi mi fe le su'oroi jinvi lenu ko'e jimpe la'e je'u je'a jdini no'u lo sicni le se cusku be mi li'uЇ li'uЇ .isemu'ibo fo'a pleji fo'i .i ®lu .iku'i mu'ima va'o la'e lo gusminra sicni poi se fepni li so'odi'u ko'e co'a bradi do li'uЇ mu .iseki'ubo fo'i gleki klama le .i ®lu fo'i zdani tu'u na birti .i noda ru'a jimpe le .i tu'a di'u xe ctuca fi ledu'u stura bele menli be lei puzu jdice nagi'apubo e'ucai zgana .i respa .ua ri'a je'unai ka'u le sego'i zo .i seki'unai la'ede'u mi "za'a" noi cmavo fi lesi'o zgana pupuziki gasnu lenu xendo ko'e ku'o cu rafsi zo zabna li'uЇ .i mi'a puzi klama zo'a lo bende be lo xanto .ijeseki'ubo mi ________________________________ mu'i lenu djica lenu fanta lenu _____ damba noi cumki fa lenu ke'a se jalge lenu ko'e se xrani cu Iain: cusku ®lu ko se kajde fi tu'a le .i bazi lenu mi'a simxu lenu mabru li'uЇ rinsa kuku lo nanmu poi nanca li li'uЇ mi'e .i,n. so'a cu klama pu'e le na'e sirji ne'i le barja gi'e co'a zutse ca'u le lojbo se ciska mi le lisri be le serti .i le nanmu goi ko'a cusku le se by Christo Smirnenski, translated du'u ri puzi se gunta lo puzu from Bulgarian by Ivan Derzhanski respa pe la'o ly. saurischia ly. .i ®lu .iku'i loi respa pe Over a year ago, Ivan made the la'edi'u cu puzu ji'esti li'uЇ se following translation from a cusku mi Bulgarian original. Because Nora .i ®lu .ila'aru'e go'i .iboku'i and I have been so slow at simlu fa lenu noda ve cilre technical review of Lojban text la'edi'u fo ra cu'usa'a ko'a and because JL has been less than .i lenu mi'a simxu lenu kansa cu regular, this long promised effort nanca li reno is finally making it to print. .i mi co'aki kurji ko'e goi le As with some of our other texts respa ca lenu ri ca'o citno this issue, a translation may be .i mi jinvi ledu'u le mamta be found later, along with footnoted ko'e cu morsi ba'o lo nanca be li commentary on the text. This text so'o .ije cumki fa lenu ko'e is being published without final romoi lu'i le jutsi revision. Ivan's original .i le pendo be mi zu'apu kurji submission was so well done that ko'e gi'eku'i puzi co'a speni gi'e Nora was able to translate it and gasnu lenu cfari fa lenu lanzu understand it as she received it. kuku gi'e jinvi ledu'u vo'a na Her translation was extensively kakne lenu tu'ari xamgu ko'e ca commented by Ivan, who planned to lenu xamgu le lanzu rewrite the text based on the com- .isemu'ibo le go'i cpedu lenu mi ments. I think that the text we curmi lenu basti fi lenu bilga have is good enough to see print, lenu kurji ko'e and the commentary and response .i mi je'a curmi .ijeja'ebo kiku from Ivan, with added notes from nu'i bi'ogi ca la'edi'u gi caku Nick Nicholas and Lojbab, serve as dunda loi cidja .e loi djacu ko'e an excellent study in Lojban .ijebo satre ko'e .ijebo fi lenu stylistics and the problems of cadzu cu kansa fe ko'e translation. .i ca lo'e vanci mi tavla ko'e (The excellence of Ivan's work so'i klesi be lei te cilre be'o ne should not be doubted merely mu'u le citri be loi jmive be va'o because of the number of le terdi be'obe'o .e loi jicmu be footnotes. The stylistic le saske bele munje poi vanbi ma'a discussions in these footnotes consist of Ivan's explanations of 105 subtle distinctions in the cucycau cmaxli cu jgari lera original Bulgarian that are not selxaksu taxfu gi'e catlu le galtu captured in Nora's translation. I serti sepi'o lo tinbe je simsa be felt that presenting these le rulnkentaure,a bei leka blanu discussions would teach a fair ku kanla .i catlu je cisma .i amount about the language, while loi selpopseltau je grusi je cinla showing some of the stylistic remtra cu trixe dzukla gi'e gunma considerations that go into an sanga lo selsno ke mrori'i zgike excellent translation, .i da kercrori'a siclu fi le ctebi considerations that need not apply .i de noi daski nenri se xance cu when, like Veijo or Mark, you cmila sepi'o lo cladu je rufsu write originally in Lojban.) voksa .ije lede kanla cu jarco As with other pieces published leka fenki in this JL, I am publishing this ni'o ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka text with essentially no changes, cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna choosing instead to make my .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e comments in the footnotes along melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki with Nora's, Nick's, and Ivan's. .i .iunai vu gapru .i .o'onai Ivan did such an excellent job; I li'uЇ can scarcely say that my artistic .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu judgement could better than his noi se lafti se mebri gi'e dukri'a capture the sense of the Bulgarian denmi se xance text that I've never read. .i ®lu .io xupe'i do xebni lei vu Enjoy! gapru li'uЇ preti fi fo'a noi ca tcica krori'a le xadni fa'a ko'a .i fitfi'i di'e ro lei ba cusku be .i ®lu .aisai mi ba vefsfa lei vu ledu'u vo'e vo'i na srana mabla nobli joi turni .i mi ri ni'oni'o tu'e kusru vefsfa seka'i leimi bruna ®lu do ?mo li'uЇ preti fi la goi ko'u noi simsa be le canre bei pacrux. goi fo'a leka pelxu ku se flira zi'e noi .i ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna bei leni tepri'a ku se cmoni .i .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e ko viska leko'u ®lunbe ke ciblu ve melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki flecu xadni .i ko tirna leko'u li'uЇ cmoni .i .ai mi ko'u venfu .i .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu le'o ko curmi li'uЇ noi se lafti se mebri gi'e denmi .i fo'a cisma se xance .i ri goi ko'a sanli .i ®lu mi jibri bandu lei vu gapru crane le serti .i labyxu'e linji .ije mi se le'irbai gi'anai ke blabi roimrmaro ke galtu serti lacti'a ri li'uЇ .i ko'a catlu mo'ifa'a le darno ne .i ®lu mi ponse no solji .i mi di'o lepu'u lei grusi kalsygri be ponse no lo se pleji befi do .i leka pindi cu ca simsa be loi mi pindi je selpopseltau citno ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna ku .iku'i mi bredi lenu pleji lemi savri'a .i diklo slilu gi'e febvi kazyji'e li'uЇ fengu gi'e lafti loi to'e plana ke .i fo'a rapli cisma xekri birka .i le nunpante ke .i ®lu .e'onai ri zmadu lemi se suksa sance .e lei fengu nunki'a cpadji .i do'anai ko fi mi dunda cu desku le vacri .i le te minra leka do sanga'e li'uЇ .i ®lu cu simsa be lo darno ke barda .ueru'e leka mi sanga'e .i terdanti sance ku masno je junri .iefi'i .i .e'i mi noroi tirna di runta .i lei girzu cu banro gi'e .i .e'i li'uЇ klama ne'i loi pelxu pulce dilnu .i ®lu do ranji leka ka'e tirna .ije loi sepli ti'otra cu mutcne li'uЇ .i fo'a ko'a papri'a sepi'o leka viskli ze'o le kampu ke grusi di'u gi'e cadzu curmi .i ®lu ko vanbi pagre li'uЇ ni'o pa.o'enai to'ercitno cu .i ko'a bikla bajra gi'e dzugre ci simsa be lepu'u sisku leri se te serti tai pa nu stapa .i ku'i cirko ka citno be'o ni'akro be lefo'a terkre xance ko'a lacpu fa'a le terdi ku dzukla .i lo 106 .i ®lu banzu .i ko sisti mu'i kazyci'o .e lo cnino kazmo'i .i lenu tirna leiko'u vu cnita cmoni ga do zanru gi do noroi pagre levi li'uЇ te serti gi'e noroi venfu leido .i ko'a sisti gi'e kerlo jundi bruna pe lo se flira be le simsa .i ®lu .uesai .i ?ki'uma ko'u be le canre zi'e pe le se cmoni be suksa cfari lenu to'edri sanga le zmadu be le la gaimast. gi'e xalbo cmila li'uЇ .i ko'a si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a li'uЇ krefu ke bikla bajra .i ko'a catlu lefo'a crino je .i fo'a ko'a krefu rinju ranxi kanla .i ®lu mu'i lenu do krefu pagre ci .i ®lu ku'i mi ba traji leni to'e te serti kei mi cpadji ledo kanla gleki .i do lebna ro ckaji be le li'uЇ kazre'a mi li'uЇ .i ko'a pa'arcau sliri'a le xance .i ®lu to'e go'e .i traji leni .i ®lu ku'i va'o la'edi'u mi na je'a gleki .i .e'apei .i ?xu do ka'e viska ga leimi bruna gi leimi tugni .i do'anai leka do cinmo je ba se vefsfa li'uЇ morji li'uЇ .i ®lu do ranji leka ka'e viska .i ko'a cu trati pensi .i lo .i mi fi do ba dunda lo drata xekri ctino cu manri'a leko'a kanla noi mutce zmadu li'uЇ .i flira .i loi xasne ke to'ekli ko'a rapli pagre ci te serti gi'e dirgo cu gunro zo'a le se cinje ni'a catlu jundi .i fo'a rinka mebri .i ko'a fengu demri'a le lenu ko'a morji xance gi'e bacru pa'o le denci .i ®lu ko viska leko'u ®lunbe ke ®lu .ai.e'asai .i ko lebna li'uЇ ciblu ve flecu xadni li'uЇ ni'o ca lenu le xekri kerfa ca .i ®lu .uecai .i .u'ecai cizra biflu'a kei ko'a simsa be le crisa .i ?cama binxo lenu ko'u melbi lidbi'e ku fengu pagre le romoi te dasni .i ji'a seba'i lei ciblu te serti .i ko'a capu snada lemu'e xrani ko'u se jadni loi se manci gapru .i suksa cisma gusni leko'a xunre rozgu li'uЇ flira .i leko'a kanla cu dirce ni'o vi ro lo cimoi te serti seci'o le smaji ka se mansa .i fo'a di'i lebna lefo'a cmalu leko'a xance cu ®luzbi'o .i ko'a selpleji .i ku'i ko'a ru'i cadzu catlu lei pixsalci nobli .i catlu .i ko'a bredi dunda rodi mu'i le cnita be di'o lenu krixa je lemu'e klama tu gi'e vefsfa leivu dapma fa le grusi je selpopseltau malplana nobli joi turni .i girzu .i catlu .i ku'i no sluji .uo.ui semaunai pa te serti .i ba be leko'a flira cu frati .i ri su'epa te serti ko'a gapru .i selgu'i je gleki je selpu'a .i ko'a cabazi venfu leiko'a bruna ko'a viska loi salci se taxfu .i ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka girzu vi le cnita .i lei pu cmoni cerda .ije ro le pidrai sa'a ca salpemci li'uЇ .i ®lu do ?mo li'uЇ tcica preti fi .i ®lu ju'i. citno nanmu su'epa te fo'a sepi'o lo rufsu voksa serti .i ba su'epa te serti do .i ®lu mi nobli ji'u leka cerda venfu .i ku'i levi te serti di'i .ije lei cevni mi bruna .i .uicai ve pleji le relpi'i jdima mi .i ge le terdi cu je'a melbi gi le ko fi mi dunda leka do cinmo je remna cu je'a gleki li'uЇ morji li'uЇ .i ko'a sliri'a le xance tu'u .i ®lu .ii leka cinmo .i .i di'u se finti la xristoz. .e'anaicai .i dukse kusru li'uЇ smirnensk. gi'e se fanva la .iVAN. .i fo'a maljgira cmila ra'i le derJANSK. fo le banblgaria si'u la galxe nitcion. nikolas. fa'o .i ®lu mi na mela'edi'u kusru .i mi fi do canja dunda lo zabna le ci cribe - An Operettina with a familiar plot and music, by Nora LeChevalier (As performed at LogFest 92 - No translation exists for this text) 107 Props: big, medium & little bowls. Also pot & serving spoon, table & chairs. high, medium & low chairs. hard, soft & medium beds. [] = actions () = extra syllables/words on sung line. [The 3 bears sit down to eat.] Song #1: "mi ba citka" to the tune of "Are You Sleeping?" PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- mi ba citka (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) glare .oi mi ba citka (.i) glare .oi (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) .e'u mi'o denpa (.i) glare .oi mi ba citka le nu ti ba cenba (.i) glare .oi (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) litru .ai (.i) .e'u mi'o denpa (.i) glare .oi (.i) litru .ai [starts leaving] le nu ti ba cenba (.i) glare .oi (.i) litru .ai (.i) .e'u mi'o denpa (.i) litru .ai [starts leaving] le nu ti ba cenba (.i) litru .ai (.i) litru .ai [starts leaving] [The 3 bears leave. Along comes Goldilocks] Song #2: "mi xagji" to the tune of "The Inky-Dinky Spider" GOLDILOCKS -------------------------------------- mi xagji gi'e tatpi .i mi ba nerkla ti [enters & sniffs] .i .ue kukte panci da poi cidja vi .ije zangla marbi co se kufra mi .i mi lazni gi'e citka le kukydja bazi [Goldilocks sits down at table and starts on Big Bowl contents.] 108 Song #3 "ti dukse glare" to the tune of "He's Got the Whole World In His Hands" [Sits down at table with bowls] Verse 1: GOLDILOCKS -------------------------------------- [tastes from big bowl] ti dukse glare .i .oi .ai nai [tastes from medium] .i dukse lenku .i .oi .ai nai [tastes from small] .i prane ni glare .ui ai cai .i mi ba citka piro ti [eats it all up] [Goes to chairs] Verse 2: GOLDILOCKS -------------------------------------- [sits on high chair] ti dukse galtu .i .oi .ai nai [sits on low] .i dukse dizlo .i .oi .ai nai [sits on medium] .i prane ni galtu .ui ai cai .i mi ba stizu zutse ti [falls off chair as it breaks. Spoken:] .ue [Goes to beds] Verse 3: GOLDILOCKS -------------------------------------- [sits on hard bed] ti dukse jdari .i .oi .ai nai [sits on soft] .i dukse ranti .i .oi .ai nai [sits on medium] .i prane ni jdari .ui .ai cai .i mi ba sipna cpana ti [lies down & goes to sleep] [3 bears return, entering] Song #4: "le ci cribe co'u xrutykla" to the tune of "Oh, How Lovely Is the Evening" PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- le ci cribe co'u xrutykla le ri lazyzda gi'e djica le ci cribe le nu gurnycti co'u xrutykla gi'e surla .i le ri lazyzda 109 ctinei gi'e djica le ci cribe cribe le nu gurnycti co'u xrutykla cimei gi'e surla .i le ri lazyzda ctinei gi'e djica cribe le nu gurnycti cimei gi'e surla .i ctinei cribe cimei 110 Song #5: "bredi .au" to the tune of "This Old Man" Verse 1: [3 bears go to bowls] PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- bredi .au selcti mi vi le palta bredi .au barda .ui selcti mi .i da citka pi vi le palta bredi .au so'u le kukte ti midju .ui selcti mi semu'i le ka .i de citka pi vi le palta vefydji so'u le kukte ti cmalu .ui semu'i le ka .i di citka pi vefydji ro lemi kukte ti semu'i le ka vefydji Verse 2: [3 bears go to chairs] PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------ ------------------------- stizu co steci mi gi'e mutce stizu co galtu .ui steci mi .i da zutse le mi gi'e mutce stizu co stizu .ue puzi dizlo .ui steci mi semu'i le ka .i de zutse le mi gi'e milxe vefydji stizu .ue puzi galtu .ui semu'i le ka .i di daspypli le vefydji stizu .ue puzi semu'i le ka vefydji Verse 3: [3 bears go to beds] PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- ckana co steci mi gi'e mutce ckana co jdari .ui steci mi .i da vreta le mi gi'e mutce ckana co ckana .ue puzi ranti .ui steci mi semu'i le ka .i de vreta le mi gi'e milxe vefydji ckana .ue puzi jdari .ui semu'i le ka .i di vreta le mi vefydji ckana .ue puzi gi'e ranji zvati ti [points] [Goldilocks awakes to see three angry bears. She cowers] Song #6 ".ue .o'onai" to Beethoven's 5th Symphony, 1st Movement, starting after the two introductory 4-note groups. 111 [Play symphony as accompaniment - Wait for introductory bars to end and start singing.] PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR GOLDILOCKS --------------------- ---------------------- -------------------- - ---------------------- .ue .o'onai .ue .o'onai .ue .o'onai .ii cai .i .o'onai .i .o'onai .i .o'onai .ii cai .i .o'onai .ii cai .i .o'onai .ii cai .i .o'onai mi cliva [runs out] [Once again, the 3 bears sit down to eat. Mama Bear serves afresh.] Song #7: "mi ba citka", reprise (to the tune of "Are You Sleeping?") PAPA BEAR MAMA BEAR BABY BEAR ------------------------- ------------------------- ------------------------- mi ba citka (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) glare .oi mi ba citka (.i) glare .oi (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) mi'o na ba denpa (.i) glare .oi mi ba citka le nu ti ba cenba (.i) glare .oi (.i) mi ba citka [eats] (.i) citka .ai (.i) mi'o na ba denpa (.i) glare .oi (.i) citka .ai [starts eating] le nu ti ba cenba (.i) glare .oi (.i) citka .ai (.i) mi'o na ba denpa (.i) citka .ai [starts eating] le nu ti ba cenba (.i) citka .ai (.i) citka .ai [starts eating] [curtains close] __________________________________ _______ ti cu dukse glare cidja .ue .aunai Note: Three Alternate songs .i ti dukse ji'a lenku .aunaisai available for Song #3 .i ti glare prane cidja (Goldilocks tries food, .i mi kazyxagji citka etc.): ze'apu le nu se tisna .a'o .ai __________________________________ ________ ti cu dukse galtu stizu .ue .aunai A: "ti cu dukse glare" to the tune .i ti dukse ji'a dizlo .aunaisai of .i ti galtu prane stizu "She'll Be Coming 'Round the .i mi djica le nu mi cu Mountain When She Comes" zutse surla vi le pritu 112 .a'o .ai .i mi na vreta ti .i ti dukse .uu ranti ti cu dukse jdari ckana .ue .aunai .i .a'o ta xagmau ti .i ti dukse ji'a ranti .aunaisai .i .ui .ai cai .i ti jdari prane ckana mi vreta sipna .ui vi .i do kakne le nu zgana le nu mi cu sipna cpana .a'o .ai __________________________________ ________ B: "ti dukse glare .ainai" to the tune of "For the Beauty of the Earth" ti dukse glare .ainai .i mi na ka'e citka ti .i dukse ji'a lenku .uu .i ta va cu xagmau ?xu .i ti glare prane .ui .i mi citka piro ti ti dukse galtu .ainai .i mi na ka'e zutse ti .i dukse ji'a dizlo .uu .i ta va cu xagmau ?xu .i ti galtu prane .ui .i mi stizu zutse ti ti dukse jdari .ainai .i mi na ka'e sipna vi .i dukse ji'a ranti .uu .i ta va cu xagmau ?xu .i ti jdari prane .ui .i mi sipna cpana ti __________________________________ ________ C: "ti cu dukse .uu glare" to the tune of "Du, Du Liegst Mir Im Herzen" ti cu dukse .uu glare .i mi na citka ti .i ti dukse .uu lenku .i .a'o ta xagmau ti .i .ui .ai cai mi citka piro ti vi ti cu dukse .uu galtu .i mi na zutse ti .i ti dukse .uu dizlo .i .a'o ta xagmau ti .i .ui .ai cai mi stizu zutse .ui vi ti cu dukse .uu jdari 113 Translations and Commentary for ckafybarja writings and le lojbo se ciska Following are computer-generated glosses for the first of Veijo's two Lojban texts. In addition to providing help for those who are at- tempting to read the texts, they also serve to show the current capability of the Lojban glosser program that Nora is working on. As it is, it produces word-for-word interlinear translations, substi- tuting an English keyword for each Lojban word (and some compounds). But as you can see, a word-for-word gloss can be nearly unreadable if you do not know the grammatical function of each Lojban word, and appropriately adjust the meaning of the keyword to reflect the function of the word in the Lojban grammar of the sentence. Veijo's First Text ({<le [(la veion) (ckafybarja {srinuntroci <[xi pa] the veion coffee+tavern story+event-of+tries -sub- 1 [xi ci]>})]>} -sub- 3 ni'o {<[({<[({<[({<[({<[sriku'a ] i [ckafybarja ]> _ Story+room . Coffee+tavern i <mi [(zvati {<le vorstu >}) gi'e (terpanci . Me present at the door+site and 3rd-place-of+odor {<[loi ckafi ] [da ui cai ]>})]>} the mass of all coffee something #1 (Wheee!) (-intense emotion!) i {mi <[(ca {ze'u <pu . Me at the time (of) for an eon (during) before [nai oi ]>}) sumne ] [da ]>}) -not (Oy!) smeller something #1 i (mi {<dzukla [(le jbustu )]> gi'e <ctacarna >})] . Me walks+goes the table+site and looks-at+rotates i [(rancindu jubme)]> . Soft+oak table i <seldandu [(lo {<vrici to'erninda'i > . 2nd-place-of+hang some miscellaneous opposite-of-+new+object <noi [mi ({na djuno} {<zo'e ke'a >})]>})]>} , which me not true knows something he/she/it i {selzvati <[({ji'i pano}) (zutse remna)]>}) . 2nd-place-of+present-at approximately 10 sits human i (srotanxe {<[loi ckafi ] [lei mudri]>})] i [vrici ]> . Stores+box the mass of all coffee the mass of wood . Miscellaneous i <mi [visyfacki ({fi <[pa] [lo ({poi <[loi . Me sees+discoverer x3= 1 some that the mass of all 114 remna] [(na zutlamji ) (ke'a )]> ku'o} {jubme <goi ko'a>})]>})]>} human not true sits+adjacent he/she/it , table alias it-1 i {mi <[co'a zutlamji ] [ko'a]>}) . Me on starting sits+adjacent it-1 i (ko'a {lamji <[le nunjupca'u ]>})] . It-1 adjacent the event-of+cooks+space i [(le jukpa) cu ({selviska } gi'e {jupfinti . The cooks (is/does) 2nd-place-of+sees and cooks+inventor <[de a'ucu'i ]>})]> something #2 (Not interested!) i <mi [(pensi a'e ) ({loi . Me cogitates (I'm alert!) the mass of all <selpinxe co [ckafi au ]>})]>} 2nd-place-of+drinks of type coffee (I want!) i {ckafypanci <[fi (mi ui )]>}) i (ckafypanci )] [ . Coffee+odor x3= me (Wheee!) . Coffee+odor i ui o'u ]> i <sriku'a >}) . (Wheee!) (Ahh! Relaxing!) . Story+room 115 .i rancindu5 jubme .i seldandu lo Commentary on Veijo's first text vrici to'erninda'i noi mi na djuno zo'e ke'a .i selzvati ji'ipano le la vei,on ckafybarja srinuntroci zutse remna .i srotanxe loi ckafi xipa xici lei mudri .i vrici .i mi ni'o sriku'a .i ckafybarja .i visyfacki fi pa lo poi loi remna na mi zvati le vorstu gi'e terpanci zutlamji ke'a ku'o jubme goi ko'a loi ckafi da.uicai1 .i mi ca .i mi co'a zutlamji ko'a .i ko'a ze'upunai.oi sumne da2 .i mi lamji le nunjupca'u6 .i le jukpa dzukla le jbustu3 gi'e ctacarna4 cu selviska gi'e jupfinti de.a'ucu'i .i mi pensi.a'e loi selpinxe7 co ckafi.au .i ____________________ ___________________________________ 1Mark: "I am-at the door-place stare, the scanning being done [doorway] and am-a-smell-receptor- mainly mentally). of [smell-emitted-by] mass-of coffee [smell being] x1" 5Colin asks: loi rancindu ki'a Whoa! Took me a long while to (Don't understand "soft oak") Veijo work out how that works. The responds: The original Description sentence seems to be redundant, but #2 from LogFest/Lojbab called for somehow manages actually to that. sensibly bind "da", making an existential claim at the same time. 6Mark: "event-of-cooking volume"? Confusing, but very clever, and Maybe "jupkumfa"? It is a room, rather uniquely lojbanic. after all, isn't it? Not sure the "nun-" is necessary, but it's not 2Mark: I believe that "da" gets badly placed. unbound between sentences (except at ijeks [I+JE]), so you should Veijo: First I had either have an ".ije" there or use "(nun)jupkumfa" but then wanted to some other sort of anaphora to get have just the space, not to imply the smell. You could probably just separation at this stage. More ellipsize it entirely and get the lojbo :) meaning across fine. Mark: Hrrm. Still seems a Veijo responds: Didn't think of little weird to me, but you're that (being too smug having put probably absolutely right here. together the previous bridi). ".ije" is actually quite good here. 7Iain: Whether you use "le pinxe" Didn't want to ellipsize. or "le se pinxe", you are still Definitely not. The smell was the using "pinxe", with all its thing. connotations. "selpinxe" zu'unai is a lujvo, obviously derived from 3Colin: "jbustu" - I guess I "pinxe", and with a closely associ- understand, but I don't find it ated meaning, but with potentially obvious. ?xu zo jbustu cu sinxa le a definition of its own, which may pagbu be le dinju be'o poi stizu lo have a completely different jubme emphasis. So "lo se pinxe" is "something which is drunk", but "lo Veijo responds: go'i selpinxe" could well be "a bev- erage". dikyjvo considerations 4Mark: Not sure what "ctacarna" would give "selpinxe" the same really implies, but I get the gist. place structure as "se pinxe", no doubt, but the connotations need Veijo responds: Did a lot of not be the same. There is still word juggling to arrive at scope for ambiguity, but within a "ctacarna". Not much physical somewhat different range of turning, except perhaps the head, a meanings. quick wandering look takes in the But at the moment, we don't have scene (or an almost stationary a full, or even a partial, dic- 116 ___________________________________ tionary. We don't have any lujvo ___________________________________ definitions. So while we may guess that someone means something Lojbab: "na'o" and other tense slightly different by "selpinxe" as words are intended to logically distinct from "se pinxe", we can't apply to a whole bridi and cannot be sure exactly which facet of the easily be restricted to a part of meaning of "pinxe" is intended to the selbri. I'm not all that sure be emphasised. These are details what the semantics of such a which will have to be worked out restriction would be. If you want gradually over a period of time. the effect of "na'o" or some other tense/modal on a part of a selbri, Nick: Iain is right. In fact, you should do it via tanru, using the place structure subtly changes the gismu/selbri equivalent, in too (too subtly for dikyjvo). this case perhaps "cnano": "cnano There is a second place of se pinxe ckafi". "selpinxe", but it corresponds to For some of these modals, where the second place of cidja (loi ka'e there may be some question whether pinxe), and not of "se pinxe" (lo the gismu necessarily captures the ca'a pinxe). I think this aspect same sense as a tense would, we are of lujvo place structures, which we assigning rafsi to the tense cmavo haven't paid attention to in the as part of the rafsi retuning. past, but which is, I feel, coming This would also allow you a smaller through in a few of the place referent than the whole selbri. structures I'm postulating, in The grammar changes being determining which places get turned proposed will eliminate the option off (for example, a dinsro (money- to put a separate tense on the part store = treasury) has no container of a selbri after the "co". Allow- important to definition, whereas a ing that was an error in the dicysro (electricity-store = grammar implementation, since, as battery) has no location important you have noted, there is no non- to definition, so those respective "co" equivalent, and the purpose of places are turned off - remember "co" does not include adding new "xo'o" in last October's options to selbri, only inverting discussions?), will come back to them for emphasis or place haunt us when we try to tackle structure convenience. lujvo properly. I don't think that time is quite yet. But thanks to Iain: I was going to suggest Iain and Mark for pointing it out; using a gismu, but I couldn't find we will be wary. one that fitted the bill. But you can bind the tense into the selbri Mark: Aside: I was troubled by with "be": the fact that "le na'o se pinxe ckafi" seems to mean "thing- le se pinxe be na'o ku ckafi described-as-being: typically: drunk-thing type-of coffee", i.e. Mark: Yes, that's very good. something that is typically drunken Thanks, Iain. It's a little clumsy coffee, with the "na'o" applying to that it has to be preposed like the whole of the following tanru. that, but not really. That was To my horror, I found that I what I was looking for. couldn't restrict the "na'o" to the "se pinxe". I thought of putting Iain: When I wrote this, I ke/ke'e around "na'o se pinxe", but thought either "ku" or "be'o" was that's not grammatical, and putting necessary - I'm not sure now - but it around just "se pinxe" didn't I suspect it helps human parsers. accomplish anything. I suppose I could have done it with "co", but Mark: Hmmm. Apparently neither that doesn't seem like a very is necessary, though that isn't general answer, and it would change obvious to the human reader at its place-structure. first glance. Best to keep them in, for a little extra redundancy. 117 ckafypanci fi mi.ui .i ckafypanci .i .ui.o'u .i sriku'a 118 Nick's text with rough translation gi'e.o'o.aucu'i denpa lenu lo and commentary djabe'ipre cu jundi mi .i milxe savru gi'e ruble nungei .iku'i mi .i mi se lidne la vei,on. cabdei me ®lu .i'inai li'uЇ ba'acu'i lenu nerkla le la loblaz. vau.u'uru'ero'a10 .i lei bitmu cu kafybarja .i mi sutra joiku'i.o'a se jadni loi carmi bo vrici joi banli cadzu pa'o la'ele cravro noi na'e simlanxe be ja'i le tcaci .i tilju je jadycau .i lenu mi pu le re cpare ka'amru poi simkruca se kargau le vorme cu mlirocnandu gi'e punji fi le cravro gapru na sacri'a lenu mi catke .i le te minrysarxe11 .u'iru'e .i na go'i vorme cu se gusni lo lecydo'i milxe fa loi drata ke bitmu se punji ne gi'e se kufra cmalu .i panomei mu'u lo dembi poi vreta lo kicne sa'enai.a'acu'i loi jubme .i mi ku'o jo'u lo slabu tcityta'o ne zutse ne'a lo na'e se tsejbi jubme secu'u ®lu vi xagrai loi tauzba pe {poi diklo le kumfa kojna gi'e levi tcadu li'uЇ ge'ujo'u lo stula'i le vorme ku'o} gi'e catlu befydai noi te ciska zo loi zvapre .iza'a la vei,on. zutse sindereluud. .i mi ca jundi le vi le ragve kojna gi'enaipe'i jbusfe pe mi .i te ciska so'ida ne zvaju'o8 mi .i ra zanfri bau la lojban. e la bangrnesperanto .i'e.o'enai loi panci be loi vi ckafi9 .i mi zmanei loi tcati ___________________________________ emotional distance seems to me ____________________ rather more like aloofness than an absence of empathy. 8Lojbab: You used "zvaju'o" and Sylvia guessed your intent from 10Mark: I like [this]. Very good context. Suggested to use "zgana" use of "me". Not sure what you're or "jundi" as the major basis of repenting of, but you don't have to the word. say. Nick: Possibly, though I think Nick: I was regretting being "zvaju'o", or at most "nunzvaju'o", such a misery-guts to the audience, is clear. instead of getting on with the job of navigating. 9Lojbab: "He's getting high on the coffee smells" - No one in the Lojbab: "private" - was there a Tuesday night group could figure reason for not using "sivni" or a out anything about what you were lujvo thereon, which is intended to trying to convey with that be associated with this attitudi- attitudinal, even after checking nal. the English. There's no "se'inai", so this is your attitude, and I see Nick: I was unaware of it. The no semantic suggestion of "high" word would have to be "sivyci'o", even if I assume the "se'inai" was and not "sivni". But I think me+UI supposed to be there. Explanation? is a powerful construct, worth preserving. Nick: The ".o'enai" means I don't empathise, because that's 11Lojbab: did you consider "lanxe" what I take emotional closeness to vs "sarxe". The English suggests mean. the former and the minra was a bit [Regarding "high"] The confusing. Doesn't anyone like translation was a bit loose? :) "dukti"? (dukti-mapti lanxe/sarxe?) Lojbab: Closeness can be related Nick: "minra" will have to be to empathy, but I'm not sure it is there because the equilibrium is the same thing, at least in the one of reflection same-ness. sense that you used, I mean ex- "lanxe" is clearly better than pressed, it. I can feel "sarxe", and maybe "te minra" emotionally close to someone rather than "minra", but any ex- without necessarily sharing their pression for symmetrical will have feelings about something else. And to have a wild metaphor. 119 .e le glibau .e .ueru'e le dotco through the front door, which is .i le dotco cu se ciska ta'i la heavy and plain. Opening the door fraktur .i mi xebni la fraktur .i took a bit of effort, and made it mi djica {lenu ciska fi le jbusfe necessary to push. What is behind fe ®lu mi la fraktur xebni mi'e the door is illuminated by mild kilrois. li'uЇ kei} gi'enai ca afternoon light, and is comfortably ponse lo ve ciska befi loi mudri small. There's about ten tables, I .i mi ka'e lebna lo cpare ja bisli dunno. I sit at a table with no kilmru le zunle bitmu .i mi co'i one by it, in the corner and next morji le xajmi pe lei bisli kilmru to the door, and look at the people jgari relcisyge'upre .iku'i lenu here. I see Veijo sitting in the le xajmi cu jboselsku na se snada opposite corner, and I don't think mi .isemu'ibo mi pensi sanga le se he's noticed I'm here. He's finti be la suZAN.vegas.be'o pe getting high on the coffee smells. me'e ®lu le la tom. gusta li'uЇ .i I prefer tea, and I'm waiting - not lenu go'i cu se dicra lenu lo that anxiously - for a waiter to djabe'ipre noi .uacu'i xindo cu notice me. There's some noise and klama mi gi'e cisma bacru ®lu a bit of merriment. But today, I'm cticpe ?ma doi lojbo ga'icu'i li'uЇ feeling private - uh, sorry about .i mi co'a se spaji catlu le that. The walls are decorated by be'ipre .i mi nelci le be'ipre .i miscellanies, unharmonious by the mi mutce nelci co se trina le usual standards. The two climbing be'ipre ja'e lenu mi na spuda ri axes above the front door aren't .iseki'ubo ri cmila joiku'i milxe quite symmetrical. Nor are the bo se fanza bacru ®lu be'ebe'e other objects on the walls - a pea xaupre zo'o ctidji ja pixydji ?ma on a cushion, for example, an old li'uЇ .i mi spuda bacru ®lu signboard saying "Best Tailor in je'eki'e pendo .u'u si ba'edo'u.u'u the Whole Town", and a belt with .u'ise'i go'i lo tcati li'uЇ .i le "Cinderelwood" written on it. I be'ipre goi ko'a cu bacru ®lu go'i look at the table-top where I'm lo tcati pe le'a ?ma li'uЇ .i mi sitting. It's been inscribed with ®lu .aicu'i do ?ma stidi li'uЇ .i lots of stuff, in Lojban, ko'a ®lu .e'a la kukytcat. noi vi Esperanto, English, even German. purlamrai terve'u li'uЇ .i mi ®lu The German stuff is in Fraktur .i'e ko bevri le la kukytcat. tcati script. I hate Fraktur. I want to li'uЇ .i ko'a bacru ®lu baziba'o write "Kilroy woz here and hates go'i .oinai li'uЇ gi'e cliva mu'i Fraktur", but I haven't got lenu bevri nagi'e tavla lo drata something to write on wood with. I zutse .ipujecabo lu'i le jukpa could take an ice-pick or climbing- kuce le patlu'i lu'u nevi le pick from the wall to my left. I jupku'a cu cladu joi selzdi dabysnu recall the joke about the ice-pick .i le jukpa cu so'uroi batkla gi'e wielding bisexuals, but it doesn't te jivrei le se casnu fo lei zvati go into Lojban too well. So I .i.aucai mi na ve preti .i le start mentally singing Suzanne barjyjatna noi dasni lo jikri'i Vega's Tom's Diner. I am taurgunma ca tavla la vei,on. .i interrupted by a waiter, Indian I mi xance rinsa la vei,on. i ko'a suppose, who comes to me and says, spuda rinsa gi'e nupre lenu bazi smiling: "What'll ya have to eat, kansa mi kei mi .i loi cnino cu Lojban-lover?" I look at the nerkla gi'e cladu rinsa loi no'e waiter, surprised. I like the cnino noi na'oca'o te lisri .i mi waiter. I really like the waiter. na .ai cabdei ve lisri .i mi I'm so attracted to the waiter, I .e'icu'i cabdei xebni la fraktur. forget to answer. So s/he says, laughing but a bit annoyed, "Hello? Free translation of Nick's text Earth to Goodfellow Lojbanist? into English. What'll ya have to eat or drink?" I answer "I hear you, and thank I've been preceded by Veijo in you, friend (shgeez) - Oh, not entering Cafe Loblaz. I swiftly shgeez about you, shgeez about not and yet grandly make my entrance answering; what a klutz I am! :) 120 I'll have tea." "What kind of opinion about the topic he's tea?" "shrug What do you debating. I really don't want to recommend?" "Oh, you could have a be asked. The manager, wearing a Tasty-T; it's our most recent suit, is talking to Veijo. I wave purchase." "OK, get us a Tasty-T." at Veijo; he waves back and The waiter says "Consider it done", promises me he'll be with me in a and leaves, not to get it, but to moment. New people enter and talk to other patrons. While this loudly greet those already there, has been going on, the cook and the who are typically telling stories. dishwasher in the kitchen have been I don't feeling like being told any loudly and enthusiastically ar- stories today. Today, I feel like guing. The cook occasionally comes hating Fraktur. out and asks the patrons for their Veijo's Second Text ({<le [(la veion) (ckafybarja {srinuntroci <[xi re] The veion coffee+tavern story+event-of+tries -sub- 2 [xi re]>})]>} -sub- 2 ni'o {<[({<[({<[({<[({<[({<[mi ({penzutse o'u })] _ Me cogitates+sits (Ahh! Relaxing!) i [to'erninda'i ({fa <le [mi jubme]>})]> . Opposite-of-+new+object x1= the me table i <ciska [(da {le jbusfe })]>} { ije } {mi . Inscriber something #1 the table+surface ; and me <catlu [(da a'u )]>}) i (lerfu {<la [fraktur ue ]>})] looks at something #1 (interest!) . Letter fraktur (What!) i [mi (morji {<fi [loi (lerfu {be <la fraktur>})]>})]> . Me remembers x3= the mass of all letter of fraktur i <morji >} i {mi <[({<pu zu > ki} zvati ) ({le ckule })] . Remembers . Me before , a long time : present at the school gi'e [({ caca'a } tcidu )]>}) and currently is reader i (mi {tcidu <[le (cfika {be <le [(ze) bruna ]> <bei [(la . Me reader the fiction of the 7 brother of {aleksis kivis}) (po'u {le natmytercfi })]>})]>})] aleksis kivis which is the ethnos+3rd-place-of+fiction i [(le {<poi [(le {drata <be mi >}) cu (tcidu . The that the other than of me (is/does) reader {<fi ke'a >})] ku'o> selpapri }) cu 121 x3= he/she/it , 2nd-place-of+page (is/does) ({te prina } {<loi [lerfu (be {la antik})]>})]> 3rd place of printer the mass of all letter of antik i <[le (mi {selpapri <goi ko'a>})] [(te . The me 2nd-place-of+page alias it-1 3rd place of prina ) ({loi <lerfu [be (la fraktur)]>})]>} printer the mass of all letter of fraktur i {<le [nu (tcidu {<de [pe (ta'i . The event of reader something #2 of in form {la fraktur})]>}) kei]> <[(pu nandu ) (mi )] gi'e fraktur , before difficult me and [(ca frili)]>}) at the time (of) easy i (mi {djica <[(le {nu <tcidu [(fi ko'a)]> kei}) (mu'i . Me desires the event of reader x3= it-1 , because {le <nu [(le {mi patfu }) ({<pu zu > prina } the event of the me father before , a long time printer {<[loi lerfu ] [loi (ko'a papri)]>})]>})]>})] the mass of all letter the mass of all it-1 page i [(le {mi patfu }) ({ze'u prina })]> . The me father for an eon (during) printer i <[(le {<nu [ri (go'i )] kei> nanca }) (li {< vobi>})]>} . The event of it , the same , in years the number 48 i {<[ki ku] mi > <catlu [(le {vi <lerfu [be (la fraktur)]>})]>}) . : me looks at the here (at) letter of fraktur i (lerfu )] i [(bacru ue ) ({zo coi })]> . Letter . Utters (What!) quote-unquote: hello i <[barjyjatna a'a ]>} . Tavern+captain (I'm attentive!) i {<la nitcion> <[(co'a va ) (se . nitcion on starting there (at) 2nd place of zvaju'o )] [mi ]>}) present-at+knows me i (ra {<xance rinsa > <mi >})] [ ije ] [mi ({spuda rinsa })]> . It hand greeter me ; and me responds greeter i <[la nitcion] [({ caca'a } xebni) ({la fraktur})]>}) 122 . nitcion currently is hater fraktur ®lu .ie.a'a .ie.o'onairu'e Commentary on Veijo's 2nd text (cu'usa'a mi noi caki vilkla zo'a le vorme4 fi'o te mlixra le janco le la vei,on. ckafybarja ku'o) sera'a ?ma pezyjicla5 li'uЇ srinuntroci xire xire .i mi vi le zdani pu zutse co ni'o mi penzutse.o'u .i ____________________ to'erninda'i fa lemi jubme .i ciska da le jbusfe .ije mi catlu 4Colin: "le vorme" - I am still da.a'u .i lerfu la fraktur.ue .i not clear whether "vorme" means a mi morji fi loi lerfu be la bit of wood etc., or a hole, or fraktur. .i morji .i mi puzuki both. We often use it as if it zvati le ckule gi'e caca'a tcidu means the first - if so, then "le .i mi tcidu le cfika be le ze vorme" is certainly not what you bruna bei la .Aleksis.kivis. po'u mean here! le natmytercfi .i le poi le drata be mi cu tcidu fi ke'a ku'o Nick: I believe "vorme" is a selpapri1 cu te prina loi lerfu be doorway, rather than a piece of la antik. .i lemi selpapri goi wood. I don't see why the piece ko'a te prina loi lerfu be la of wood can't be a "vrogai" fraktur. .i lenu tcidu de pe ta'i (doorway lid). la fraktur. kei pu nandu mi gi'e ca frili .i mi djica lenu tcidu Lojbab: It is the doorway that fi ko'a kei mu'i lenu lemi patfu is intended in the gismu, but not puzu prina loi lerfu loi ko'a in the sense of "door frame". The papri .i lemi patfu ze'u prina new place structure for "vorme" .i lenu ri go'i kei nanca li vobi has a place structure suggestive .i kiku mi catlu le vi lerfu be la of route, emphasizing the two fraktur. .i lerfu .i bacru.ue zo sides it connects, while noting coi .i barjyjatna.a'a .i la that it is also within some larger nitcion. co'ava se zvaju'o2 mi .i structure, and hence not just any ra xance rinsa mi .ije mi spuda route. By comparison, "canko" rinsa .i la nitcion. caca'a xebni emphasizes the wall in which it is la fraktur.3 found. I like "vrogai" and "vroca'o" and "vroge'u" for the __________________________ cover and opening and frame, respectively. The gismu list has Iain's first text, with rough been clarified to reflect this. translation and commentary 5Nick: I'd prefer something more explicit than "pezyjicla", like "raktu" or "cuntu". ____________________ Lojbab: I agree. This smells 1Nick: We are going to see a lot malglico, since there is no clear of preposed relatives, I predict, implicature as to what is being simply because they kill off a lot 'stirred up' in the context. of the worry about terminating Transferring figurative uses be- them when postposed. They are not tween languages, if you must do just an affectation. so, should be confined to situations where the reader/- 2Nick: Nice to see one's dikyjvo listener can clearly identify the picked up :) figurative values for the place structure of the 'figure' - in the 3Nick: Brilliant ending. I case of "jicla" (stir), the mean... so wonderfully deadpan. agent/force doing the stirring, You're getting quite good at this the 'fluid' being stirred, and the :) utensil/implement doing the stir- 123 cando .icabo mi terbei lo notci ku'o gi'e denpa lenu se zvaju'o da poi ve cusku le se du'u lu'o la no'u ga ko'a gi lo selfu noida'i vei,on. joi la nitcion. lu'u goi bevri loi ckafi mi ko'a noi zvati le kafybarja po'u ni'o lemi jubme cu xekri seja'e la *jbolaz. cu djica lenu penmi mi loni to'ercitno .i ra ve srakysku vi ra .i ®lu ?ma ?mo li'uЇ na se zo mi ce'o prami bu ce'o ®lu le spuda .i ko'a jundi casnu la cmacrnalgebra li'uЇ .i mi nelci fraktur. .i mi zo'u la fraktur. le jubme .i mi de'a morji fi la no'e cinri .i mi co'a zutse ne'a vei,on. .e la nitcion. gi'e co'a lo jubme poi lamji le me ko'a6 pensi .i mi si'a se cinri so'a klesi be lo sinxa ciste ra'anai __________________________________ ledu'u vo'e ge'ikau te javni mu'u ring. For the context given, it le sucta cmacrnalgebra gi mecritli isn't really even clear to me that mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu7 .i Iain wants "jicla" as opposed to "terjicla" __________________________________ 6Colin: I felt sure there was something like this, "da pe" would something wrong with "le me ko'a", be better, but still likely but I think you have actually wouldn't get the definiteness invented a new idiom with which we across. There's "da voi srana", will now doubtless be plagued. but that's not really worth con- sidering as a general solution. Mark: It's actually an attempt Too long. "le pada pe ko'a" at a sort of metonymy. I think doesn't seem all that bad to me, "le me ko'a" is not the way to go, but then, in your shoes I would I greatly prefer "zo'epe ko'a". I probably say to hell with defi- sort of think of "zo'epe" as niteness and stick with "zo'epe". almost like a LAhE word (of Not that that's necessarily the course, with different grammar) right thing to do. I'm still less that introduces metonymy for the enthusiastic about "le me ko'a" sumti it's on. "le me ko'a" seems than Nick is. dangerously close to just plain "ko'a". Lojbab: I think "le me ko'a" is fine for original Lojban, but Nick: "le me ko'a" is the would probably have used "le ko'a solution to metonymy - so much co'e" as a translation for English better than my "zu'i pe ko'a". "theirs" which more matches the 'possessive' implicature of the Iain: I've been reprimanded in English. The "me" version is more the past for using "zo'e" with a vague, and could extend to include relative clause, and told to use "ko'a" as well as things belonging "da". Admittedly, I think it was to "ko'a". a "poi" relative clause, which may On the other hand, I suspect make all the difference. Neither that "la'e" and "tu'a" between "zo'epe ko'a" of "da pe ko'a" seem them handle metonymy fine, and I to express the definiteness that I think better than "le me ...". It wanted. I could use "le" with a would not be very English-like to sumti, provided I insert an handle "theirs" as a "la'e" or a explicit quantifier "le pa da pe "tu'a", but it might be very ko'a", which is starting to get lojbanic to do so. out of hand for a simple concept like "theirs". The voting is 7Lojbab: Iain translates this still open on this one. sentence as: Mark: Well, you have a good I too am interested in all kinds point. "zo'e pe" is specifically of symbolic system, whether anti-definite. It's good for formal ones like abstract metonymy in which you're really algebra, or more flexible ones not trying to be specific, but are such as natural and artificial willing to be elliptical. For languages. 124 la'edi'u mukti lenu mi tadni la quietly, when I got a message lojban. kei noi ki'u ke'a mi zvati saying that Veijo and Nick, who la jbolanzu are at the Cafe *Jbolaz, want to no'i lo be'ipre cu klama co see me there. "What's up?" - no veirgau lemi selcpe po'u lo barda reply. They are deep in a carmi bo ckafi gi'ebabo nalsirkla discussion about Fraktur. Me? I mo'ize'oku na'e mo'ifa'a le can take it or leave it. I sit jupku'a .i .uaru'e simlu fa lenu down at a table next to theirs and ko'a ze'apu naje ca zvaju'o mi .i wait for someone to notice me, mi'a simxu rinsa .i la'aru'e mi either them or one of the people bazi facki le krinu be lenu serving who might bring me some sutrygau8 coffee. My table is dark with age. On __________________________________ it is carved "I", a heart, and ______ "algebra". I like this table. I forget about Veijo and Nick and "OK, OK!", I say, barging start to ponder. I too am through the door, bruising my interested in all kinds of shoulder, "What's all the fuss symbolic system, whether formal about?" I was sitting at home ones like abstract algebra, or more flexible ones such as natural __________________________________ and artificial languages. That's There was much debate about this the reason I'm studying Lojban, sentence on the net, with Iain which is why I'm at the "*Jbolaz". eventually deciding to use A waiter comes and takes my "ra'anai". Not proposed in the order for a large, strong coffee, discussion, and I think better and and wanders off, not heading for more lojbanic, is a logical con- the kitchen. Ah, it looks like nective approach. I also think they've spotted me at last. We that "all kinds of" is better ex- say hello. Perhaps now I'll find pressed using a massifier gadri, out the reason for all the rush. since he is not really interested _____________________________ in the categories, but in the things comprising the various Translation of Mark Shoulson's categories (or maybe he is a Text and Commentary taxonomist): ni'oni'o vanci .icabo nalcladu .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi ne'i le ckafybarja .i le bi'u sinxa ciste ju gu'a te javni be remna cu klama mo'ine'i ra .i mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra be'o ko'a goi ra9 zutse ne'a lo jubme gi mecritli be mu'u loi rarna ja rutni bangu The two "be" clauses might be ____________________ more readable as parentheses: 9Lojbab: I'm wondering why Mark .i mi si'a se cinri piso'a loi waited till this sentence to as- sinxa ciste ju gu'a te javni (to sign ko'a. It makes things unnec- mu'u le sucta cmacrnalgebra toi) essarily more difficult on the gi mecritli (to mu'u loi rarna reader to have done so, since he ja rutni bangu toi) ends up with two "ra"s with dif- ferent values only a few words 8Nick: Perhaps "mukti", and apart. I don't frown on this so "sutrybai". much with "ri" which is fairly strictly confined to the next pre- Lojbab: Iain has to decide: vious sumti, but "ra" is loosely Does he want an explanation for enough defined that one has to the summons, or does he really stop and think about whether it want to know the motive. Having might or might not mean the same multiple words for "why" makes you as the previous usage. really need to think about what is Since he is dealing with a 3rd really sought after. person narration section of a 125 .i ko'a cpedu loi tcati le __________________________________ kafybarja se jibri .i ba so'o seen it before and figured it de- mentu ko'a se dunda loi tcati gi'e served some exposure, and this co'aru'inai pinxe ri seemed like a possible usage. I'm ni'o ko'a ca lenu ko'a pinxe loi going back to "ko'a", so it's sort tcati po ko'a cu zgana lenu le of an old topic... isn't it? bi'u nanmu cu se dunda lei ckafi poi ra pu cpedu ke'a .ije le Lojbab: The purpose is to allow nanmu goi ko'e cu pencu le kabri you to change topics ("ni'o"), and poi se nenri lei ckafi ku'o le possibly even contexts, but then degji gi'enai pinxe lei ckafi to resume the old context at will .ije mu'i zo'epela'edi'u10 ko'e with "no'i" ("ni'o" and "no'i" can cusku ®lu .o'onai ju'i do'u ko be subscripted, I believe, if you lebna lei vi ckafi gi'ebabo bevri are dealing with many contexts). fi mi fe lei je'a glare ku'i ckafi Context is typically defined in li'uЇ le bevri be lei ckafi be'o terms of a certain space-time goi ko'i .i ko'i cusku ®lu .u'u tense reference and possibly a set .ie ga'inai li'uЇ gi'ebabo lebna of anaphora assignments. le kabri .i ko'i krefu klama gi'e Major intended uses are for a bevri lei ckafi vau ba so'o mentu story-within-a-story (for which .i ko'e krefu pencu le kabri .i the concept was invented - I've ko'e cusku ®lu .i'esai ba'e ti been working on an Arabian Nights ku'i cu je'a glare ckafi li'uЇ .i translation for a few years now, ko'e gleki pinxe lei ckafi po ko'e and that collection nests stories no'i11 ko'a zgana la'eso'odi'u12 several levels deep, as characters .i ba so'o mentu ko'a tavla le in a story tell a story with characters who in turn tell __________________________________ stories, etc., continually popping story, assigning with "le ... from level to level with stories remna goi ko'a" in the previous stopping, starting, and being sentence is only fair. interrupted for metalinguistic comment or action at a higher 10Nick: zo'epela'edi'u is more story level), for comparison accurate here than ".isemu'ibo", between two situations, and a but it's still a mouthful. I'm whole bunch of oddball things that not confident about the usage of happen in stylistics of longer "ku'i". narratives. The conventions of switching Mark: I thought ".isemu'ibo" anaphora assignments (i.e. the wasn't quite right, since after definition of ko'a, ko'e, da, de, all, it wasn't his touching the etc.) or tense reference (the cup, but rather what he felt that value assigned with "ki" are not made him refuse. I'm glad you saw well established because "no'i" that too. "zo'epela'edi'u" is a has not been used much used. bit much to say, but not Other applications are certainly impossible. Note my "zo'epe" possible, and will have to be metonymizer. developed through usage. I was actually proud of the Hopefully they will be generally "ku'i" there. "Bring me some hot consistent with the originally coffee (as opposed to this tepid intended purposes. stuff)." 12Mark: I don't like the way Lojbab: How about "tu'a "di'u" only means "the last utter- la'edi'u"? ance". It's bringing number considerations into Lojban where 11Colin: Can anybody explain it never had them before. I'd "no'i" to me, please? have expected it to mean "the last utterance(s)", with optional Mark: Not me. I don't know what number, like everything else. You it is either. I threw it in can't always use tu'e/tu'u, because I've pretty much never 126 __________________________________ bi'unai selpinxe bevri goi ko'i sometimes it's used in .i ko'a cusku ®lu .ia do pu bevri afterthought. I had to use that lei naldrata ckafi ta vau ?xu hideous "la'e joigi di'ugide'u" li'uЇ .i ko'i cusku ®lu go'i [in the original draft of this .o'unairo'a .u'uro'a li'uЇ .i story], counting on "de'u" to be ko'a cusku ®lu ko .i'i na jikca non-number-specific. Had to use dunku .i mi puzuze'u se jibri forethought because otherwise loinu13 bevri loi selpinxe vi lo "la'e" would stick only to "di'u" gusta .iseki'ubo mi djuno tu'a le and not the whole thing. do se zukte .i da poi prenu cu genai pinxe lei ckafi gi pencu le Iain: In the latest version of kabri gi'e na'e djica tu'a lei the grammar, LAhE applies to a ckafi ki'u lo za'i na'e whole sumti, with an explicit pe'ise'inai14 glare .ije semu'i optional LUhU terminator, so you could use afterthought. __________________________________ Why not "[le] re di'u" - the A possibility to consider when previous two utterances, "so'o you are dealing with a range of de'u" - several recent utterances, sentences and don't want to count, etc. would be to use di'upezi/- [Mark liked this approach and di'upeza/di'upezu to indicate incorporated it in the printed relative length of referenced version.] utterance. Lojbab: I ask you: What is an 13Mark: I also replaced a lot of 'utterance'? In Lojban, an "lenu"'s with "loinu"'s, though utterance can be more than a this is not common practice. I single sentence, a paragraph even, did this because of the article by or whatever. I would think this JCB that was posted here not long would be familiar to net people ago, in which he pointed out that from Cowan's method of net a lot of our "lenu"'s are really quotation on Lojban-List: "la loj- massified: you're not waiting for bab. cusku di'e", where "di'e" is a specific event of a cab's the forward counting utterance arriving, you're waiting for a equivalent of the back-counting manifestation of the mass of such "di'u". events. I thought JCB had a very Thus, the 'utterance' to which good point there. "di'u" refers is not that well defined, and may indeed refer to 14Colin: I don't think you can use multiple sentences. Grammati- "pe'ise'inai" in the way that I cally, the construct labelled think you are trying to. It reads 'utterance' is a single sentence "didn't want to drink the coffee or partial sentence. However, it because it was not (I think but has generally been agreed, for ex- it's not my issue) hot." It ample, that ".ije" joining, or seemed to me that you were trying ".ibo" joining gives a logical to make it "... it was not (in unit (as does ".itu'e ...tu'u", as their opinion) hot", which you you noted). Thus the concept cannot do with attitudinals. utterance extends to be what is labelled an "utterance-string" in Mark: I'm not so sure about the grammar, or perhaps even to this. I'm not 100% positive about the construct labelled "text-B", what "se'i"/"se'inai" do. which can include multiple Somewhere in the past someone said paragraphs. Now the usage default they could be used in this way, to convention of 'utterance' has tag attitudinals explicitly as tended to be a single sentence, belonging to the speaker or not. but it need not always be so. If Oh, I remember. It was when Nick context suggests a longer and I were discussing whether utterance is intended, fine. attitudinals on "du'u" in the x2 of "djuno" applied to the speaker or to the x1. Actually, we were 127 loinu da minde mi lenu basti lei tu'a le slabu lisri be le bebna ckafi loi glare ckafi kei kei mi seljibri ka'u li'uЇ .i ko'i cusku lebna lei ckafi gi'e na'o denpa ®lu le lisri ki'a li'uЇ .i ko'a fu'i so'e mentu tezu'e lenu tu'a cusku ®lu .ue do punai ?xu ve lei ckafi cu glaryri'a le kabri lisri fu ri li'uЇ .i ®lu noroi ve kei fo lenu krefu dunda lei lisri li'uЇ .i ®lu .ai mi te naldrata ckafi .i za'a do panra lisri .i tu'e ka'u da'i puzuki da zukte .i la'ede'u ve ctuca15 fu te bende le re seljibri .i fo'a goi le te bende ca le fanmo be le __________________________________ jeftu cu pleji le se jerna le re discussing it with reference to seljibri no'u lu'i le prije "kau" then, but this was when seljibri goi fo'e ge'u jo'u le "kau" was still evolving. Lojbab bebna seljibri goi fo'i .i le se said you could use "kause'i" and jerna cu rupnu li panono "kause'inai" to distinguish who .ijesemu'ibo fo'a pleji lei jdini was "knowing" (remember, at the be ta'i le pelji jdini fo'e .e time we were considering "kau" as fo'i .i fo'e ckire fo'a gi'ebabo mostly just "known!"), since cliva gi'e gleki ki'u lenu le "se'i" always made things apply to jdini cu se vamji li su'orau .i the speaker. I fear you're fo'i na'e gleki .i cusku ®lu probably right anyway, but I hope .o'onai mi to'e lazni gunka fi'o you're wrong, since your second te bende do ca piro le jeftu .i reading, the one I intended, is do pleji levi malpelji .i'enaisai such an elegant way to say it.... mi .i le'o ko pleji fi mi fe le [Later ...] I didn't change ..., je'u je'a jdini no'u lo sicni e.g. Colin's objection to li'uЇ .isemu'ibo fo'a pleji fo'i "pe'ise'inai" for "in their lo gusminra sicni poi se fepni li opinion", since last I heard the mu .iseki'ubo fo'i gleki klama le jury's still out on what it should fo'i zdani tu'u .i tu'a di'u xe mean, and I like the way it ctuca fi ledu'u jdice nagi'apubo sounds. e'ucai zgana .i .ua ri'a je'unai ka'u le sego'i zo "za'a" noi cmavo Lojbab: Mark's usage is fairly fi lesi'o zgana ku'o cu rafsi zo consistent with what we had in zabna li'uЇ16 mind for "se'inai", but is vague as to who actually holds the opinion other than the narrator. ____________________ Lojban intentionally makes specifically attributing emotions 16General Comments: to others difficult (as do many natural languages), and I would Mark: I could use some better prefer such comments to be met- use of UIs, I think. My grammar alinguistic discursives using gets very complex sometimes. "sei". In this case, "sei da jinvi", or "sei vo'a jinvi", or Nick: Hm, this one is... sober. even probably "sei jinvi" says the That's ok, though. We were about same thing, but makes the due for sober :) The grammatical attribution of opinion a claim complexity (and I presume the same rather than an empathic is the case for my work) means understanding/attribution of that you have to read the piece emotion (which is what I see as slowly, but that's not impossible. the proper meaning of "se'inai" modifying an attitudinal). Colin: Your grammar is not complex compared to some of us ... 15Mark: I had trouble getting - but you let it get quite across the meanings of "this is embedded, which is a little hard illustrated by the old story" and to read; but it's good that we are "the moral of this is..." Places seeing a variety of different of "ctuca" have done the job, and styles. Keep it up. reasonably well, but maybe not Some of your UI's are very good, very well. and others I disagree with. 128 Mark's translation uses Lojban "You brought that guy the same pronouns to preserve the gender- coffee, didn't you?" free qualities of his Lojban17: "Um... yeah, I did..." "Don't worry. I used to work as It was quiet in the coffeehouse a waiter in a restaurant, so I one evening, and a person (ko'a) know what you did. There are came in. ko'a sat at a table and people who don't drink the coffee, ordered tea from the cafe they just touch the cup and don't employee. After a few minutes, want the coffee because they think ko'a was given some tea and began it's not hot enough. So when they sipping intermittently at it. tell me to get them some fresh As ko'a was sitting drinking coffee, I just take the coffee and ko'a's tea, ko'a saw a man being wait a few minutes until the given the coffee which he'd coffee warms the cup and bring ordered. The man touched the cup them the same coffee back again. that contained the coffee, but And I see you've done the same. didn't drink the coffee. So he That's really the moral of the old said, "Hey! Take this coffee back story about the foolish laborer." and bring me some hot coffee!" to "What story?" the waiter (ko'i). "You never heard it?" "Yes sir, sorry..." And ko'i "Never." took the cup away. "OK, I'll tell it then. Once A few minutes later, ko'i upon a time, there was a manager returned carrying the cup. He (fo'a) with two workers. At the (the man) touched the cup again, end of the week, he paid his two and said "Ah! Now that's some hot workers: the wise worker (fo'e) coffee!" and happily drank his and the foolish worker (fo'i). coffee. Their salary was $100, so he paid ko'a had seen all this happen, them with paper money. fo'e and several minutes later was thanked fo'a and left, happy talking to the waiter. ko'a said, because he was paid so well. "fo'i wasn't happy. "Look! I worked hard for you all week, and __________________________________ now you're paying me with this dumb piece of paper!? You better Lojbab: Of the writings pay me with some real money, with generated so far for this project, coins!" So fo'a paid fo'i with Mark's has by far the lowest shiny coins, worth 5 cents, and density of lujvo, and he is fo'i went happily home. sparing in the use of the more "This all teaches that you have arcane cmavo, too. I think that to look closely before passing simplicity of vocabulary, judgement. In fact, that's why especially when there is no "za'a", which represents the idea dictionary, more than makes up for of observation, is also an affix a little complexity in the for "zabna"/favourable." grammar. After all, if a sentence is a little complex, you can Commentary on Iain's 2nd Piece always bracket things more clearly (no translation available) by including a few optional terminators. But if you can't .i bazi lenu mi'a simxu lenu rinsa figure out what a couple lujvo in kuku lo nanmu poi nanca li so'a cu the sentence mean, you may be klama pu'e le na'e sirji18 ne'i le completely lost. 17Lojbab: On the other hand, Mark ____________________ specified one gender where it doesn't seem that his story needed 18Nick (on an earlier version of it: why did the person who this): [Iain wrote:] "lo nanmu ordered the coffee have to be a poi nanca li so'a cu klama fo le man? He could have used "prenu", na'e sirji ne'i le barja gi'e co'a or "remna". zutse ca'u mi" 129 barja gi'e co'a zutse ca'u mi .i jinvi ledu'u vo'a na kakne lenu le nanmu goi ko'a cusku le se tu'ari xamgu ko'e ca lenu xamgu le du'u19 ri puzi se gunta lo puzu lanzu20 .isemu'ibo le go'i cpedu respa pe la'o ly. saurischia ly. .i ®lu .iku'i loi respa pe la'edi'u cu puzu ji'esti li'uЇ se cusku mi .i ®lu .ila'aru'e go'i ____________________ .iboku'i simlu fa lenu noda ve cilre la'edi'u fo ra cu'usa'a ko'a 20Lojbab (on Iain's final draft .i lenu mi'a simxu lenu kansa cu text submission for JL17): [Iain nanca li reno .i mi co'aki kurji wrote:] ko'e goi le respa ca lenu ri ca'o citno .i mi jinvi ledu'u le mamta .i le pendo be mi zu'apu kurji be ko'e cu morsi ba'o lo nanca be ko'e gi'eku'i puzi co'a speni li so'o .ije cumki fa lenu ko'e gi'e gasnu lenu cfari fa lenu romoi lu'i le jutsi .i le pendo lanzu kuku gi'e jinvi ledu'u be mi zu'apu kurji ko'e gi'eku'i vo'a na kakne lenu tu'ari xamgu puzi co'a speni gi'e gasnu lenu ge ko'e *gicabo le lanzu cfari fa lenu lanzu kuku gi'e This sentence is currently ungrammatical at the point indi- __________________________________ cated by an asterisk. "gi" does What isn't straight? The two not bind with a tense like that - axes? Not that obvious in it is only a place holder. When context. you go from afterthought ex- pression: "ko'e .ecabo le lanzu" Iain: No, it was meant to be to forethought, we don't currently the route (or the manner) by which have a way to express both logical he came in which wasn't straight. and tense connective at the same It sounds like this doesn't work. time. If we did allow it, it Perhaps I could try pu'e le na'e might have to be attached to the sirji. connective, as "gecabo", and not to the place-holder word "gi". Lojbab: I actually thought that After all, the idea of a the original was clear, and the forethought connective is to let modified version seems less so. the listener know the relationship The x4 of klama is a route, and a between the connectands before ex- non-straight route is obviously an pressing them. indirect one that is not the The easiest expression that I shortest from point a to point b. think captures your intended It is less clear to me what a non- meaning is to scrap the connective straight process of going is. and use an expanded tense clause. Perhaps meaning that he stopped to I made only this minimal change to talk to people on the way. I make the result grammatical, but would have used "lo" instead of also discussed this with Nora. "le" though, since it isn't clear You might also consider expressing to the reader listener which the final clause as: indirect route/means is the one intended. "le" should normally be vo'a na kakne lenu roroi ku tu'ari something specifically xamgu ge ko'e gi le lanzu identifiable to the listener, and if not, the speaker should be or maybe: prepared to answer the clarifying question "leki'a" (which?). vo'a na kakne lenu paroi ku tu'ari xamgu ge ko'e gi le lanzu 19Lojbab: Note that "du'u" refers to a fact or truth, something or to express the negation as a known or knowable, while "se du'u" tense: refers to expressions of such a fact or truth. This is being vo'a noroi kakne lenu paroi ku clarified in the dictionary cmavo tu'ari xamgu ge ko'e gi le list. lanzu 130 lenu mi curmi lenu basti fi lenu stura bele menli be lei puzu respa bilga lenu kurji ko'e .i mi je'a .i seki'unai la'ede'u mi pupuziki curmi .ijeja'ebo kiku nu'i bi'ogi gasnu lenu xendo ko'e .i mi'a ca la'edi'u gi caku dunda loi puzi klama zo'a lo bende be lo cidja .e loi djacu ko'e .ijebo xanto .ijeseki'ubo mi mu'i lenu satre ko'e .ijebo fi lenu cadzu djica lenu fanta lenu damba noi cu kansa fe ko'e .i ca lo'e vanci cumki fa lenu ke'a se jalge lenu mi tavla ko'e so'i klesi be lei te ko'e se xrani cu cusku ®lu ko se cilre be'o ne mu'u le citri be loi kajde fi tu'a le mabru li'uЇ li'uЇ jmive be va'o le terdi be'obe'o .e mi'e .i,n. loi jicmu bele saske bele munje poi vanbi ma'a .i jetnu fa lenu Translation and Commentary on le ko'e na kakne lenu tavla lisri be le serti .ijeku'iseki'unaibo mi su'oroi jinvi lenu ko'e jimpe la'e le se Nora's translation follows in cusku be mi li'uЇ .i ®lu .iku'i italics. Where Ivan intended a ?mu'ima va'o la'e so'odi'u ko'e different translation, that is co'a bradi do li'uЇ .i ®lu na given on a third line in a birti .i noda ru'a21 jimpe le different font, or in the footnotes commenting on Nora's translation. __________________________________ le lisri be le serti vo'a ca noda kakne lenu paroi ku The story of the stairs. tu'ari xamgu ge ko'e gi le "The Tale of the Stairs" lanzu __________________________________ We also played with trying to move the negation down a level Iain: Wot, no rhetorical (which is questions in Lojban? very un-English), but I'm not sure that the semantics stays intact. Lojbab: I note that the final version uses "noda" with no re- vo'a kakne lenu roroi ku tu'ari striction. So Iain has actually xamgu ganai ko'e ginai le broadened his meaning beyond lanzu Nick's assumed "No person understands" to "Nothing un- vo'a kakne lenu noroi ku tu'ari derstands". Of course, it may be xamgu ge ko'e gi le lanzu implicit to most people that the x1 of jimpe is itself sufficiently John Cowan will be looking at restricting. this area for a possible grammar Iain's original method of change to allow some or all of the expressing a rhetorical question possible constructions of this seems valid, though at times one type. It is perhaps useful for might want to put the "paunai" the community to note that most of either at the front of the the 2 dozen or so changes in the sentence to forewarn the listener grammar are like this one would of the rhetoric nature of the be; a minor expansion to allow question, or to delay it, something that no one ever tried appending it to a "vau" on the end before, but which seems plausibly of the sentence, so that the understandable when it is tried in listener starts to seriously think an actual writing. about the question and answer, before being told that no answer 21Nick (on an earlier version): is expected. [Iain wrote:] .i ®lu na birti .i I suspect that the attitudinal ?ma paunai jimpe le stura bele system offers a variety of other menli be lei puzu respa ways to convey rhetorical statements of this type, including I'd rather "no prenu cu jimpe", probably some that don't easily myself... translate to English. 131 (thick?)24 hand. He stands in .i fitfi'i di'e ro lei ba cusku front of the stairs. Pink-lined, be ledu'u vo'e vo'i na srana white marble, high stairs. Offered is the following to all who say it doesn't pertain to them. __________________________________ (Epigram:) "Dedicated to all those who will say: `This doesn't Ivan: "with lifted forehead" pertain to me!'" ('doesn't apply (showing proud unwillingness to to me', 'has nothing to do with conform)". me'.) Lojbab: I am one who believes ni'oni'o tu'e (non-translatable) in making cultural metaphors ®lu do mo li'uЇ preti fi la explicit in translations, pacrux. goi fo'a especially to a supposedly "What are you doing/What are culture-neutral language (I expect you?" asks Evil-Spirit. that you will call me on this `Who art thou?' asked the regularly in return, Ivan, when I Devil.22 fail to make my own cultural metaphors clear.) .i ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka Thus, if the lifted forehead cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna signifies pride, include 'pride' .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e in the tanru: "jgira ke seke se melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki lafti mebri", or twisting it li'uЇ around for clarity in the relative "I'm a peon by birth, and all clause context: "lo citno nanmu the poorest are my brothers. noi lafti le mebri seci'o leka Alas! The earth is ugly and the jgira" people are miserable." "I'm a plebeian by birth, and Ivan: I thought a lifted all the tatterdemalions/- forehead as an expression of pride ragamuffins are my brethren. Oh, was universal, not culturally how ugly is the earth and how sensitive, but maybe I was wrong. miserable are the people!" Ditto for clenched fists as an expression of aggressive .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu impatience. noi se lafti se mebri gi'e denmi se xance .i ri goi ko'a sanli Lojbab: You may be right about crane le serti .i labyxu'e linji the universality of the physical ke blabi roimrmaro ke galtu serti expressions - I have no idea. But This was uttered by a young man, there is cultural significance in with raised brow23 and dense the way each is described, which may vary between languages, and there is more than one emotion ____________________ that could be symbolized. In (American), phrases like "head 22Lojbab: "do mo" is elegant, but held high" suggest self-esteem/- a bit vague to expect a useful personal pride, while "nose in the answer with no context in advance air" suggests hauteur. But "eyes to make it clear what is meant. lifted on high" suggests worship. Given the answer that was given All three of these could also be (which is presumably the infor- described as having a lifted mation that the Devil wanted to forehead, but I've never heard the hear), I would ask the question as forehead mentioned in an English "do ?mo prenu" ("You are a what- metaphor suggesting any of them. kind-of-person") 24Nora: I later figured out that 23Nora: Not quite sure what this this was "clenched", but it took a is. I presume it means he had a while. Perhaps "denmi se polje se "high" brow. Perhaps "clani se xance" (densely-foldedly be- mebri" (longly be-browed)? handed)? 132 Thus spoke a young man with ctaru rirxe28 ke to'ekli boxna29 lifted forehead (showing proud ku savri'a .i diklo slilu gi'e unwillingness to conform) and clenched fists. ... a high __________________________________ staircase of white marble with group of people? If you accept pink veins25. that, then leave "prenu" out. .i ko'a catlu mo'ifa'a le darno ne 27Lojbab: This kind of long- di'o lepu'u lei grusi kalsygri be complex "be" is why "co" is in the leka pindi26 cu ca simsa be27 loi language "cu ca savri'a co simsa loi ctaru rirxe ke to'ekli boxna" is much clearer, and also seems to __________________________________ match the order of your intended translation better. Lojbab: "fist" has been expressed before as "ball-hand", 28Lojbab: Does the sound of murky so "fengu bolci se xance" waves of a tidal river differ from (possibly making the whole or some the sound of any other kind of portion into a lujvo - 'clenched- waves of a tidal river, or any fist' for se fegbolxa'e, 'angry other river? fist' for fengu se bolxa'e, or 'anger-clenched hands' fegboi se Ivan: The waves are murky xance). Again, I favor making the because of the appearance of the emotional implication (which I am mobs, and the river is tidal assuming is correct) explicit in because of their numbers. The the tanru/lujvo. observation that these things "denmi" used this way in tanru (especially the first one) don't will probably not catch on quickly affect the noise is correct, so with English-speaking readers, maybe I'll extract this de- since we don't often use the word scription from the tanru and in its literal sense in metaphor. attach it to the mobs, like so: The validity of the tanru using "lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi denmi is thus hard to evaluate bei <like> loi ctaru rirxe ke before we have a few usages of to'ekli boxna ca savri'a". How's this type in the dictionary (and a that? [Lojbab: Better, but see my few other English words besides answer in the next footnote.] "dense" to trigger people's consideration.) Other than that, 29Ivan: Bulgarian has the same I think "denmi" is fine especially word for `wave' and `worry', and if the "fengu" is also present, since the mob is something like a and I would not make much of the sea made of people, it is not fact that no one picks up the clear whether this is meant in a metaphor right away. physical or emotional sense, or both. Nick comments further on this metaphor in a later footnote. Lojbab: Then coin a lujvo based on "worry-wave" (dunku boxna) or 25Lojbab: If the order of the "anxious-wave" (xanka boxna), terms in the translation is possibly with a "joi" in between important to you, use "co" and the terms. It won't translate to grouping words to emphasize it: English, but will accurately galtu serti co blabi joi labyxu'e reflect the dichotomy of the bo linji roimrmaro (high stairs Bulgarian. Actually, I think the of-type white-with-pink-lines image, in this case, would marble) is one such approach. translate, even if the word did not. Ivan: I confess I never Combining this with the previous acquired the habit to use "co". comments, I propose: 26Nick: Will "kalsygri be leka lei grusi kalsygri be leka pindi pindi" by itself imply that it's a ca mutce savri'a gi'e simsa loi 133 febvi fengu gi'e lafti loi to'e girzu cu banro gi'e klama ne'i loi plana ke xekri birka .i le pelxu pulce dilnu .ije loi sepli nunpante ke suksa sance .e lei ti'otra cu mutcne33 leka viskli fengu nunki'a cu desku le vacri ze'o le kampu ke grusi vanbi He looks, his gaze moving- The vantage-of-reflection, like towards [somewhere] far, where the a far artillery (?) sound, slowly gray mobs of poor are, like tide- and gravely dissolves (don't quite river unclear-waves, making noise get this sentence). The groups (clamoring?). Shifting/agitated grow and go inside yellow-dust and boiling anger and lifting of clouds. And the separate shadow meager, black arms30. The yelps shapes vary widely in visibility (?) of protest and the cries of as they get further from the com- anger shake the air. mon gray surroundings. His gaze was directed towards ... and the echo faded away the far-away, where the grey mobs slowly, solemnly, like distant of misery were clamouring... They cannon fire sounds ... and were agitated/in a state of individual silhouettes were ferment... The outcries of protest emerging more and more clearly ... against the common grey background". .i le te minra31 cu simsa be lo darno ke barda terdanti sance ku ni'o pa.o'enai to'ercitno34 cu masno je junri runta32 .i lei simsa be lepu'u sisku leri se __________________________________ ____________________ to'ekli dukyjoibo'a be loi ctaru rirxe 33Nick: Given that "zenba" is now intransitive, replace "mutcne" 30Ivan: Used to be a "forest of with "zenba". dry, black arms". Lojbab: If "zenba" were still Lojbab: You could get the image transitive, you would want of "forest" in there with "grana "zmabi'o" or "tcebi'o", based on foldi co lafti loi to'e plana ke "binxo" instead of "cenba" xekri birka", paralleling the image of "forest" = "ricfoi" 34Ivan: The ".o'enai" was ("tree-field"), which is the lujvo intended to cater for him being that has been most used. "some [old man]", whom no one knows or cares for. 31Nick: I'd use "sanselminra". "te minra" (where something is Lojbab: Ivan originally used reflected to) means "echo" less "slabu". "slabu" is defined as than does "se minra" (that which the "old" which is opposite of is reflected). "new", and not as the opposite of "young". This has caused a lot of 32Lojbab: Again a place where people writing in Lojban to change "co" would make the text easier to to "to'ercitno". This works but understand. I also would use it seems clumsy to define "old" as "canci" instead of "runta"; I an opposite. I think that with cannot figure out what might go in the proper value for the places, the places of "runta" for an echo "slabu" can serve both meanings, dissolving: "... cu masno je junri but have apparently not been canci co simsa loi darno ke barda convincing. How about "ji'ecla" terdanti sance". (I also put a (alive-long) or "ma'ucla" (mature- "loi" here on the cannon sounds.) long) or "revycla" (survive-long), I don't know about the original with the latter or zatcla/za'icla Bulgarian, but "solemn" to me can (exist-long), or teicla/temcla imply "somber/gloomy/sad" at least (time interval-long) serving for as much as "serious", or at least non-living things that have been both. Perhaps "jurdri"? in place in their current state for a long of "junri". time? 134 cirko ka citno be'o ni'akro be selxaksu taxfu gi'e catlu le galtu fa'a le terdi ku dzukla35 .i lo serti sepi'o lo tinbe je simsa be cucycau36 cmaxli cu jgari lera37 le rulnkentaure,a bei leka blanu ku kanla38 .i catlu je cisma __________________________________ __________________________________ Ivan: How would that work? I'm Ivan: I wouldn't replace not sure I understand what you "to'ercitno" with anything else. mean. It doesn't matter that the man has lived long. It matters that he is Lojbab: Since this is a new not young any more. paragraph, "ru" should not go back any further than the beginning of 35Lojbab: Again, a "be" that the paragraph. The first sumti of should be made into a "co". In the paragraph is the original addition, I think the old man is reference to the old one, and the like a seeker, and not like a obvious referent of "ru". In seeking and the "pu'u" should go addition, counting minimally based away (though Nora figured out your on your text would give "ra" to intent), while what he is seeking the earth and "ru" to the "ri" of is probably the state of his being "leri". young, and not the property. On the other hand, a far more Putting all this together might clear back-reference would have give: "... cu dzukla co ni'akro been "le go'i" which clearly picks be fa'a le terdi be'o simsa lo up the x1 of the previous sisku le selcri za'i vo'a citno". sentence, the old man. Note that since this anaphoric 36Ivan: That is "lunbyseljma", reference is occurring in the but I chose to go for the middle of an extremely picturesque alliteration and brevity of set of metaphors, grasping the "cucycau". I trust it is clothes of the earth is quite understood as meaning the same. imaginable as a metaphor. Mean- while, since Nora translated from 37Nora: I wasn't sure which your original text, which had "lo referent to use for "ra". The slabu" instead of "pa to'ercitno", possible referents are: the she interpreted the old ones as earth, the old one (via "ri" in plural (you had just been talking "leri se cirko"), his lost youth, of masses and the Lojban gave no the lost youth of the old one, the hint of sudden focus on process of searching for the lost individuals ("to'unai" or youth, and (finally) the original "su'anai" might have discursively reference to old one himself. I indicated this change of detail didn't initially pick up the "ri" level). Thus it might be that one (in "leri se cirko") as a girl is holding a mob of old peo- countable sumti because I missed ples' clothes, or even a mob of it (real easy to miss when it's unshod little girls is holding compounded with the "le"). onto the clothes of the old people. In comparison to these Ivan: The old one was what I images, grasping the "worn-out wanted. The wee lass is "ri", and clothes" of the earth does not the earth, the youth and the seem that far-fetched. process have no garments for her All of this makes it clear that to cling to. "ra" and "ru" have rather limited usefulness unless you are dealing Nora: I think I'd have been more with simple sentences where back- comfortable with picking up the counting is easy. original reference at the beginning of the paragraph using 38Lojbab: Nora was particularly "ru". pleased with herself for figuring 135 An old one, like a searcher for high stairs with obedient39, his/her lost youth, walks stooped cornflower-blue eyes. Looking and to the ground. An unshod little smiling. girl grasps someones/ somethings Some old man was coming, stooped worn-out clothes and looks at the to the ground, as though he was looking for his lost youth ... was holding his [sc. the old man's] ragged/tattered garment (in __________________________________ order not to get lost in the out "cornflower blue", whatever crowd)... that is. .i loi selpopseltau je grusi je Ivan: Just bright blue. cinla remtra cu trixe dzukla gi'e Cornflowers are often mentioned in gunma sanga lo selsno ke mrori'i Bulgarian literature. The reader zgike .i da kercrori'a siclu fi is expected to have seen many of le ctebi .i de noi daski nenri se them, which I (being a urban boy) xance cu cmila sepi'o lo cladu je haven't, but I know what colour rufsu voksa .ije lede kanla cu they are. The reader is also jarco leka fenki supposed to guess that bright blue Rag-covered, gray, thin forms as an eye colour suggests walked behind and sang together innocence. This is not the case slow, funereal music (dirges?)40. in all cultures (and in Someone ear-splitting-ly whistled particular, not in traditional from the lips. Someone, with Bulgarian culture - in our hands in pockets, laughed in a folklore all eyes must be black), loud, rough voice. His eyes but that's how the author meant showed insanity. it. ... Someone was whistling sharply. ... insanity was burning Lojbab: Thus adding a modifying in his eyes. term to the tanru and grouping terms would make the meaning clear ni'o ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka to those who do not know the cerda .ije ro le pidrai mi bruna cultural implication: "<innocent- .i .oicai ge le terdi cu to'e (cornflower-bo-blue)>-eyes" melbi gi le remna cu to'e gleki Nora said that the context .i .iunai vu gapru .i .o'onai suggested "cornflower", and sure li'uЇ enough, you had used the genus "I am a peon by birth, and all name for cornflower in your the poorest are my brothers. le'avla. Alas! The earth is ugly and the people are miserable. The high- Ivan: The full name of the ups - I spit on them!41" plant is Centaurea cyanus. It is not all blue (the stem and leaves ____________________ are green), but I hope I still can use it in this way. 39Ivan: Or "mild" or "meek" (eyes). Lojbab: Certainly, since the author did so. If there was Lojbab: I might have tried doubt, you could specifically add "cumla" (humble), "fegycau" "flower" after the le'avla, but I (anger-without), or "nalvli" (non- suspect that the flower is the powerful). plausible referent whenever a flowering plant is used as the 40Ivan: Just a funeral song, basis for a color. On the other which they were singing in a hand, if you used cauliflower/- choir. broccoli as the basis for a color description, you'd have to be more 41Ivan: "Oh, ye up there, ye..." specific - indeed, I think I have (Menace.) He's not really going seen both vegetables used to to talk to them, therefore I describe colors in English. spared the "doi". 136 ca tcica krori'a le xadni fa'a .i di'u se bacru lo citno nanmu ko'a noi se lafti se mebri gi'e dukri'a "Sir, do you hate the high-up?" denmi se xance asked Evil-Spirit, who slyly bowed This was uttered by a young man, to him44. with raised brow and agonizingly `You hate those up there?' asked dense hands42. the Devil and leaned towards him. .i ®lu .io ?xupe'i43 do xebni lei .i ®lu .aisai mi ba vefsfa lei vu vu gapru li'uЇ preti fi fo'a noi mabla nobli joi turni .i mi ri kusru vefsfa seka'i45 leimi bruna __________________________________ __________________________________ Lojbab: It seems to me that a Lojbab: "paunai", generally vocative that is not meant for the before the sentence, is the marker referent is expressible by for a question not to be answered; "ju'inai". An alternative would i.e. a rhetorical question. In be to use a prenex to achieve an this case, you could also just impersonal topicalization. omit the question word and start Perhaps something like: "levu off with "pe'i do xebni ...". I [mal]gapru .iunai zo'u do .au ve think such direct statements or sputu .o'onai" rhetorical questions serve to make the ".io" rather a lesser mark of 42Ivan: No, "threateningly respect than it might be. Note clenched fists", "fists clenched that, in American English at in menace". least, "Sir" is commonly used to address someone you don't know the Nick: Maybe "kajde" should be in name of in a non-insulting manner, that tanru? and doesn't necessarily convey a The tanru with denmi doesn't lot of respect, so don't make too seem to be working. What about much of Nora's choice of the word. "ja'itra denmi xance" - grasp-form dense? ("jgari" alone implies that 44Ivan: "and leaned towards him", the youth is "ca'a" grasping "da certainly not "bowed to him". poi se jgari" Nick: Hm. I was thinking of Lojbab: If not "kajde", then "kroxadjbi", but I don't think perhaps "capti'i" (peril-sug- "krori'a" need be taken as "to gesting), though "capyjde" might bow" - that's more "xadykro be better still (peril-warning). rinsa". 43Ivan: It is a rhetoric question Lojbab: You might need a "mo'i" (indeed, the behaviour of the on that "fa'a" to get the motion, youth leaves little doubt). Maybe and I think the "ko'a" can then be "pei" (`don't answer') instead of ellipsized. "noi ca tcica xadmu'u "pe'i" (`I think you do')? The le stedu mo'ifa'a". As a sumti ".io" was a faint attempt to cater tcita, I tend to like "zo'i" more for the fact that this is the only than "fa'a", though I don't think occurrence of the formal pronoun you can ellipsize the "ko'a" in in the tale. It doesn't really that case, since the default have to mean anything, and "Sir" referent of "zo'i" is the is just a little bit too polite speaker/narrator. for its use here to be fair. 45Ivan: Wrong BAI, it seems. He Nick: Hang on, "pei" is the wants to avenge his brethren, not attitudinal interrogative, "pe'i" necessarily on their behalf (maybe the opinion. What you currently they don't even know who has have translates to me as "You do, caused their misery). "venfu" don't you." I think the ".io" wants one more argument place, should stay.] therefore I went for "vefsfa", but 137 goi ko'u noi simsa be le canre bei Oh, I will take vengeance on leka pelxu ku se flira zi'e noi those princes1 and princes248. ... zmadu be le la gaimast. si'erbi'e who moan in a more ominous/- bei leni tepri'a ku se cmoni46 .i sinister way than the December ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ciblu ve blizzards. flecu xadni .i ko tirna leko'u cmoni .i .ai mi ko'u venfu .i .i fo'a cisma le'o ko curmi li'uЇ The spirit smiles. "I will have revenge on those damned royalty. I will wreak upon .i ®lu mi jibri bandu lei vu gapru them a cruel vengeance on behalf .ije mi se le'irbai gi'anai of my brothers, with sand-yellow lacti'a ri li'uЇ faces and who moan with more than "My job is to defend the high- a December-blizzard worth of up49. I am fined (?)50 if I am scaring. See their bare, bleeding traitorous to them." bodies. Hear their moans. I will avenge them. Just you allow it!47 ____________________ 48Ivan: (Bulgarian has two words which are equally glossed `prince' in English, the first referring to a son or other close relative of a __________________________________ king, the other to a ruler of a by doing so I lost another principality.) "mabla" argument place. corresponded to a certain form of the Bulgarian demonstrative Nick: Let's get that place back pronoun, which suggests contempt. for you. There's really no reason why "vefsfa" should not have a 49Ivan: "I am a guard[ian] of place for "le se venfu"): those up there..." It is certainly not his only job, but he s1 avenges s2 by doing s3 means that he is serious about defending their privacy. p1 punishes p2 for doing p3 by doing p4. Lojbab: Perhaps remove the "jibri", and replace by ".ei" or s1=p1. s3=p4. p3=tu'a s2. ".e'i". This also parallels what Leaving out p3, we have: I think the following sentence should be ... vefsfa: x1 punishes x2 avenging x3 by doing x4. 50Ivan: Contrariwise. "... and without a bribe I won't betray Of course, you could just say them." That is, "either I will be "venfu be lei bruna be'o sfasa" payingly compelled (i.e. bribed) or I won't betray them". 46Lojbab: rearrange more clearly as: "zi'e noi selcmo co zmadu le Nick: "gi'anaibabo" to be la gaimast. si'erbi'e leni polite. I still think "le'irbai" tepri'a" is sound. "le'irselmukti"? "zi'e noi" could be simply "gi'e" since you are using the Lojbab: I like using same kind of relative clause (noi) attitudinals, and "le'ixlu" for with the relativized sumti in the bribe: ".ije mi se le'ixlu .ei first position in both cases. But gi'a na.e'i lacti'a ri there is nothing wrong with the I somehow feel that "lacti'a" way you have it. has the wrong emphasis. Since the Devil intends to deceive the 47Ivan: Ought to have been "Let plebeian, he should avoid men- me pass!", but I didn't make it tioning deception. Maybe a nice clear what the Devil was supposed ambiguous tanru like "sidju cliva to curmi. ri"? 138 di'u gi'e cadzu curmi55 .i ®lu ko .i ®lu mi ponse no solji .i mi pagre li'uЇ ponse no lo se pleji befi do .i "You'll continue to be able to mi pindi je selpopseltau citno hear." The spirit calmed him with .iku'i mi bredi lenu pleji lemi this and let him walk. "Go kazyji'e li'uЇ through56." "I have no gold. I have nothing to pay you. I am a poor and rag- .i ko'a bikla bajra gi'e dzugre ci covered youth. But, I am prepared te serti tai pa nu stapa .i ku'i to pay with my life51." lefo'a terkre xance ko'a lacpu He whippingly(?) ran57, and walked .i fo'a rapli cisma through 3 steps with one stride. The spirit again smiles. __________________________________ .i ®lu .e'onai ri zmadu lemi se wilt still hear", I'm thinking of cpadji .i do'anai ko fi mi dunda trying "do co'unai ka'e tirna". leka do sanga'e li'uЇ "Ah, no. It is more than my get- 55Ivan: Lit. "made him way", i.e. desire(??). Give me but your "moved aside and let him pass". hearing." "Oh, no, I don't want that much! 56Lojbab: I don't know how to ..." pass through stairs. .i ®lu .ueru'e leka mi sanga'e .i Ivan: This may be a .iefi'i .i .e'i mi noroi tirna di malbaublgaria. By passing a set .i .e'i li'uЇ of steps I mean climbing them. "What?!52 My hearing? Take it. They are seen as obstacles, I'll never be free53 to hear because one has to pay for each anything. Not free ..." set of three. Hints as to how "My hearing? With pleasure..." else I could put it are welcome. .i ®lu do ranji leka ka'e tirna54 Nora: "pagre" isn't really the li'uЇ .i fo'a ko'a papri'a sepi'o right word, unless you are doing it for the analogy of "passing through" stages (in which case ____________________ something based on "pruce" might be used). I'm not quite sure what 51Ivan: Lit. "... to lay my to use in place of it, though. head". Ivan: No, I'm doing it for want 52Ivan: The surprise in the En- of a better bet. glish is too strong. Nora: Maybe "klama mo'i zo'a ci 53Ivan: I don't get the "free" te serti" (went motion-tangential here. "Let me never hear any- 3 steps)? thing, let me..." I don't know how to say `let ... happen' in Ivan: Maybe. (Not that it Lojban, though. sounds good enough to me.) Lojbab: Nora was undoubtedly Lojbab: I think I would use trying to interpret the ".e'i" "bancu", and I'd soften the im- (constraint), and did so as the perative to reinforce that it is a negation of ".e'inai" (freedom). permission and not a command: ".i I would normally use ".e'a" for ®lu .e'a ko cpare bancu li'uЇ" permission, and the reiteration of the request is even stronger, a 57Ivan: "He rushed/dashed petition: ".ie fi'ido'u mi [forward]". Probably "ko'a co'i noroi.e'a tirna di .i.e'o" [mo'ica'u] bajra". 54Ivan: For a more Nick: Remember, Lojbab, the straightforward way to say "Thou primary raison d'etre of "bikla" 139 But the spirit's hairy hand pulled `Strange: why did they so him. suddenly <...>?' And he rushed again.59 .i ®lu banzu .i ko sisti mu'i lenu tirna leiko'u58 vu cnita .i fo'a ko'a krefu rinju cmoni li'uЇ The spirit again restrained him. "Enough. Stop to hear their moans far beneath." "Stop to hear how thy brethren moan down there!" ____________________ .i ko'a sisti gi'e kerlo jundi He stopped and listened. 59Ivan: Rhetorical question. The last sentence may become ".i ko'a .i ®lu .uesai .i ki'uma ko'u di'a bajra". suksa cfari lenu to'edri sanga gi'e xalbo cmila li'uЇ .i ko'a Lojbab: I'm not sure I krefu ke bikla bajra understand how this is merely a "Well! What made them suddenly rhetorical question. The start singing happily and laughing attitudinal you inserted indicates lightly?" He again whippingly surprise - thus he doesn't know ran. the answer. He probably would like to know, even if he doesn't necessarily expect an answer. __________________________________ Thus "paunai", the unask-the- is to denote "a whip-like motion", question marker of a rhetorical not a whip. question, seems out of place. If he asks the question, he really Lojbab: I have no real problem would like an answer. If you feel with the use of "bikla". Any that he doesn't really expect to confusion in my mind is due to the know but just thinks of it as an repetition of the motion with unsolvable and possibly irrelevant different words: whipped forward, mystery, I would avoid the ran, walk-passed-through, for as question-word entirely and merely short a motion as three steps. I use the attitudinal for would use "suksa", though, and strangeness and an observative to perhaps phrase it like: ".i ko'a indicate what it is he finds so suksa ke bajra bancu tai pa unquestionably strange. (This nunstapa co cimei te serti" comment applies to later questions in the story of this 'rhetorical' 58Ivan: Bulgarian has fewer type.) personal pronouns than Lojban, so I would have used a different my "ko'u" corresponds to "my attitudinal, ".i'unai.u'e" brethren" or "thy brethren" as ap- (mystery+wonder), instead of ".ue" propriate. (surprise), based on your What will happen if I say translation of it as "Strange". I "leiko'u ni'avu cmoni"? would not have put a strength in- dicator on the attitudinal, which Lojbab: Seems as good, and marked the attitude as particu- indeed resolves a tanru, though it larly strong. Otherwise, this is one that isn't really seems fine. misunderstood. The main differ- ences between your translation and Ivan: It is a rhetorical Nora's is your "how", which isn't question inasmuch as the youth present in the Lojban, and the doesn't expect the Devil to answer interpretation of "vu", which him. Of course he wouldn't mind rather overstates the distance - being told, but he's not it is after all only 3 steps at addressing anybody with this this point. How about: "ko sisti question, just wondering aloud. mu'i lenu tirna leika ko'u ni'ava Your suggestion of attitudinal is cmoni" good. 140 .i ®lu mu'i lenu do krefu pagre ci te serti kei mi cpadji ledo kanla .i ko'a rapli pagre64 ci te serti li'uЇ gi'e ni'a catlu jundi65 .i fo'a "To go another 3 steps, I want rinka lenu ko'a morji your eyes." He again went through 3 steps and looked down. The spirit reminded .i ko'a pa'arcau sliri'a le xance him: He hopelessly shook (wrung?) the hand. .i ®lu ko viska leko'u lunbe ke ... desperately waved60 ... ciblu ve flecu xadni li'uЇ "See their bare, bleeding bodies." .i ®lu ku'i va'o la'edi'u mi na ka'e viska ga leimi bruna gi leimi .i ®lu .uecai .i .u'ecai cizra ba se vefsfa li'uЇ .i ?cama66 binxo lenu ko'u melbi "But in that case I can see dasni .i ji'a seba'i lei ciblu te neither my brothers nor my tar- gets61." __________________________________ .i ®lu do ranji leka ka'e viska62 the Devil had use "xagmau" .i mi fi do ba dunda lo drata (better) instead of "zmadu" kanla noi mutce zmadu li'uЇ (more), while retaining a similar "You will still be able to see. I ellipsis of comparison while give to you other eyes, which are adding one regarding the nature of much more." "good" (Better than what? By "... other, much better eyes!"63 whose standard?) ____________________ 64Lojbab: You again need to deal with the "pagre" here. In this 60Lojbab: For this meaning I case, I suggest something like would choose something like "krefu muvdu co bancu ci te "tcudu'u" (need-anguish), which in serti". "krefu" is better than turn suggests a different kind of "rapli" for "again", though the hand oscillating. latter is better for multiple repetitions, as occurs later in 61Ivan: The Bulgarian contained the story. the rather long "those on whom I go (in the literal, "la'e zo 65Ivan: Ought to be "mo'ini'a klama" sense) to take vengeance". ...", or "... le cnita". Lojbab: You should be able to Lojbab: I prefer "catlu le capture this with "leimi se vefsfa cnita". "mo'ini'a", like the terkla". similar moving gaze early in the story, seems to ask for misunder- 62Ivan: Again [see footnote above standing, though I suspect fluent regarding loss of hearing], I'll Lojbanists might appreciate the try "do co'unai ka'e viska". usage more than us novices. 63Ivan: The Devil slyly fails to 66Ivan: No answer to the question specify in what sense they will be is really expected, so "pei ?cama better (i.e. in what property they ko'u co'a melbi dasni". will zmadu). Lojbab: You mean "paunai" Nick: Would "zmadu befi zo'e" be instead of "pei". I disagree, as too obvious? stated in my earlier comment on these kind of rhetorical ques- Lojbab: I think it would! It tions. I think the unsolvability would make the Lojbanic point, but of the question is better conveyed if the plebeian had heard it put by 1) dropping the ".uecai" (which like that, he might have guessed obviously prompted a different what he was in for. However, it image in Nora's mind), and adding would be clearer to readers, if ".i'enaicai" after "cizra". 141 xrani ko'u se jadni loi se manci At each 3rd step, the spirit xunre rozgu67 li'uЇ regularly took his little payment, "Wow! Amazing! When did they but the youth went on walking. He become beautifully dressed? And readily gave everything to get instead of the bloody injuries there and get revenge on those fat they are adorned with wondrous red royalty. Finally! Not more roses." than69 1 step [left]. After only "My god! But this is so strange: when did they manage to dress so __________________________________ well! ..." Nick: To be strictly correct, ni'o vi ro lo cimoi te serti yes. fo'a di'i lebna lefo'a cmalu selpleji .i ku'i ko'a ru'i cadzu 69Nora: The "semaunai" isn't .i ko'a bredi dunda rodi mu'i necessary. "pa te serti" actually lemu'e klama tu gi'e vefsfa leivu means "exactly one step". malplana nobli joi turni .i .uo.ui semaunai pa te serti .i ba Ivan: I wanted to emphasise the su'epa te serti68 ko'a gapru .i fact that it is really only one ko'a cabazi venfu leiko'a bruna step. All of these sentences ended with an exclamation mark in the Bulgarian original. What ____________________ would be a way to put it back? 67Ivan: Odd as it may be, Nick: "ba'epa", "ba'esu'epa" Smirnenski called them "manci will do it for me.] xunre rozgu" `wondrously red roses', rather than "manci ke Lojbab: Also, on the 'only one xunre rozgu". Don't ask me why. step' sentence, add "ba'acai" to show intense anticipation, Lojbab: The reason seems certainly worth an exclamation obvious to me, if indeed the dif- point. ference between the two groupings Indeed, you can add attitudinals is that striking in the Bulgarian: in each sentence to spice up the The left grouping indicates a emotional level, though without surreal quality about the redness strength indicators until the of the roses, a clue to the nature final two sentences. I suggest of these new eyes, whereas the "fu'ese'inai" on the "ni'o" to right grouping just says that they show that the emotions that follow are especially nice roses without are empathic attributions to the suggesting a surreal quality. plebeian (you may wish to mark Pretty roses are a wonder, but this earlier in the story if you they need no special eyes to be are attributing attitudes found; but roses that are a red elsewhere in the story), "ba'u" or color that is wondrous must indeed ".ianai" on "cmalu" to show that be an unusual red, since most the payments were not really roses are a fairly distinctive red 'little', ".a'i.a'a" on the "ru'i" color. before "cadzu", ".e'i.u'o" on "dunda" (or perhaps ".u'ucu'i"), Ivan: Congratulations on your ".ai" on "klama", ".o'inai" on reading of the "wondrously red "vefsfa", ".o'onai" on "malplana". roses". It is very interesting, By now the emotions are flowing if not accurate. They were more almost as fast as the words, and likely roses of an unusual (yet the last few sentences need only real) red colour. We often call one attitudinal per sentence, but rare things 'surreal'. with intensity. ".ua.a'ocai ba'upa" then on the "one step 68Ivan: I'm not quite sure about left" (instead of your ".uo.ui", "ba [pa te serti]" here - steps which seems premature), "ba'acai" are not times. Maybe "ba tu'a pa on the following sentence, and te serti". finally a starburst at the end of 142 one step he'll be above. He will ko fi mi dunda leka do cinmo je then avenge his brothers. morji71 li'uЇ "Hey, young man72. Only 1 step. .i ®lu mi to'erno'i ji'u leka After only 1 step you can avenge. cerda .ije ro le pidrai sa'a70 But, for this step I regularly73 li'uЇ charge double price. Give me your "I am a peon by birth, and all the emotions and memory." poorest..." .i ®lu ju'i. citno nanmu su'epa te serti .i ba su'epa te serti do ____________________ venfu .i ku'i levi te serti di'i ve pleji le relpi'i jdima mi .i 71Ivan: I'll probably split this into "ledo ka cinmo .e ledo ka morji". The original had "thy __________________________________ heart and thy memory", but the the final sentence like heart ("risna") is in Lojban, as ".au.ei.uo.u'a.uiri'ecai". in many natural cultures, only a This may be overkill, far more pump for blood. I'm not sure than you would like to do. Or I whether the youth implies that he may be missing the exact feelings will die if his heart is torn out intended in the original, but you of his chest (which is true with have to admit that it puts the respect to his natural heart), or exclamation points back in the that he doesn't want to live paragraph. without being able to have feelings. 70Lojbab: This word is the Lojban editorial bracket [e.g., I'm Lojbab: It must be the latter, adding this discursive note later, since he has indicated that he is and it is not part of the original willing to die in return for text or quote in which it is achieving his goal. embedded]. To get the effect you I would replace "heart" by want, it needs to be attached to either "emotion-source" or something discursive that indi- "emotion-organ". cates the ellipsis, since you don't really want to delete the 72Ivan: The "hey" sounds somewhat "pidrai" that it currently marks. rude to me. I would make it vausa'ake'unai, which ends the sentence with any Lojbab: We have generally found appropriate ellipsis supplied (the that putting in the "doi" tends to formal meaning of "vau"), soften the harshness of the indicates that the "vau" isn't vocative, making for a more polite really said, and then indicates phrase like "Attend my words, O continuation (which is covered by young man". Another possible the "sa'a" since it is attached to vocative to consider is "ta'adoi", it in the manner of indicators). especially since the Devil is Actually, "mi'unai" might make a interrupting the reverie of the better word for open-ended preceding sentence. ellipsis, though it isn't currently in the word list, since 73Nora: "di'i" is "regularly" as I think we have a difference in how a clock ticks, that is "at discursive intent for "ke'unai": regular intervals". I think to indicate at the start of a "na'o" ("typically") might work block of text that you are better. continuing a thread after repeating something for emphasis. Ivan: Yes, well, it is not Other choices for open-ended "typically" either, because he ellipsis might be does it every single time when ".isa'a.isa'a.isa'a" or someone gets to this step. ".itu'esa'atu'u" (which would become legal under a recently Lojbab: Then maybe "roroi" to proposed grammar change). so quantify the situation. 143 "Young man, only one step more! ..." .i ®lu ku'i mi ba traji leni to'e gleki .i do lebna ro ckaji be le .i ko'a sliri'a le xance kazre'a mi li'uЇ He shakes (wrings?) the hand. "But I will be a most unhappy person. You take all humanity .i ®lu .ii leka cinmo .i from me." .e'anaicai .i dukse kusru li'uЇ But I shall be the most unhappy "Oh, no! Emotion - heaven one. Thou takest from me forfend. Too cruel." everything that is human76. "The heart? No! This is too cruel!" .i ®lu to'e go'e .i traji leni je'a gleki .i .e'apei .i ?xu do .i fo'a maljgira cmila ra'i le tugni .i do'anai77 leka do cinmo galxe je morji li'uЇ The spirit haughtily laughs from the throat. ____________________ The Devil gave a guttural, authoritative laugh: 76Lojbab: This sounds more like "do lebna ro selkai be loi remna .i ®lu mi na mela'edi'u kusru .i mi mi fi do canja dunda lo zabna kazyci'o .e lo cnino kazmo'i .i 77Ivan: "On the contrary - the ga do zanru gi do noroi pagre levi most happy one!... But - ? Dost te serti gi'e noroi venfu leido thou agree: only thy heart and bruna pe lo se flira be le simsa thy memory?" I have no idea what be le canre zi'e pe le se cmoni be "do'a" means; I used "do'anai" for le zmadu be le la gaimast. `only' here. (I didn't intend it si'erbi'e bei leni tepri'a li'uЇ to be interpreted as "please".) I am not thus cruel. I trade with The "je'a" is for symmetry (to you for a fine emotion and a new replace the "to'e"). memory74. Either you approve75 or you'll never get through this step Nick: "do'a" - "generously"; and never avenge your brothers "do'anai" - "parsimoniously". I with the sandy faces and the moans think here "do'anai" would here more fearful than the December mean "I'm not asking for too blizzard." much", but generosity is associated with giving, isn't it? .i ko'a catlu lefo'a crino je But I can find no better UI. ranxi kanla He looks at the spirit's ironic Lojbab: We better clarify this green eyes. one well. It came across entirely backwards. Intended to be ____________________ discursive rather than emotive, "do'a" is supposed to mean that 74Ivan: Or "I will give thee you are generously conceding or instead..." The original had allowing a dubious point "even if literally "lo solji risna". this were so", possibly in con- junction with "da'i". "do'anai" 75Ivan: That is, "If thou therefore means that you are re- consentest not, thou shalt fusing to give in even a little, never..." which is probably why Nora trans- lated it as an officious and Lojbab: This sounds like insistent 'please' (rather than a "tugni" or "curmi", or maybe polite request). something else, instead of I presume that the word can be "zanru". This literally used emotively, though I hadn't translates to something like thought of it that way. "ganai do na curmi", a double We addressed the question of how negative equivalent of what you to express "only" on the net at chose. great length, a discussion that I 144 "Just the opposite - the most ni'o ca lenu le xekri kerfa ca truly happy man. Allow me. Do biflu'a kei ko'a simsa be le crisa you agree? Your emotion and lidbi'e ku fengu pagre le romoi te memory, please?" serti .i ko'a capu snada lemu'e gapru .i suksa cisma gusni leko'a .i ko'a cu trati pensi .i lo flira81 .i leko'a kanla cu dirce xekri ctino cu manri'a leko'a seci'o le smaji ka se mansa .i flira .i loi xasne ke to'ekli leko'a xance cu luzbi'o .i ko'a dirgo cu gunro zo'a78 le se cinje catlu lei pixsalci nobli .i catlu mebri .i ko'a fengu demri'a le le cnita be di'o lenu krixa je xance gi'e bacru pa'o le denci dapma fa le grusi je selpopseltau He tries79 to think. A black girzu .i catlu .i ku'i no sluji shadow covers his face. Cloudy be leko'a flira cu frati .i ri drops of sweat roll off the selgu'i je gleki je selpu'a .i wrinkled brow. He angrily ko'a viska loi salci se taxfu clenched80 his fist and said girzu vi le cnita .i lei pu cmoni through his teeth: ca salpemci With his black hair fluttering, ®lu .ai.e'asai .i ko lebna li'uЇ he, like a summer thunderstorm, "Go ahead. Take [them]." angrily passes through the last "So be it! (Let it be! Soit! step. He has now succeeded in etc.) Take them!" getting above82. There is a __________________________________ ____________________ couldn't fit into JL17. Unless you are intending that "only" mean 81Ivan: "And suddenly a smile that the Devil is trying to shone on his face." express that he is being generous to require as little as the heart Lojbab: I don't think a smile and memory (which would be a can illuminate someone's face in knowingly false emotive expres- Lojban in any literal sense of the sion, something I don't much like relation. in the Lojban attitudinal system - though I guess, if anyone can lie Ivan: The original uses an about emotions, the Devil can), intransitive verb which usually you need one of the more elaborate refers to the sun coming out from logical paraphrases of "only" like behind a cloud, something like "... and nothing else" `[and suddenly] a smile "co'a" [shine; be a source of light] on 78Ivan: "Turbid <...> rolled his face'. Clearly Smirnenski along his wrinkled forehead." didn't want to just say `he smiled', but as his alternative Lojbab: I think you wanted wording doesn't affect the "mo'ire'o" instead of "zo'a". meaning, I'm not sure how to account for it. I am open for 79Ivan: No! "He became suggestions. thoughtful /fell to thinking." Lojbab: How about something Lojbab: Nora got caught here by like "suksa cisma co ka leko'a the faulty memory that afflicts flira cu panra le solgu'i poi those of us who are long time ba'o dilzu'i ku leka co'a Loglanists - "trati" means "taut" to'ercanci"? (This uses the in Lojban, in older TLI Loglan proposed grammar revision for meant what "troci" now means relative clauses; the baseline ("try"). A rare case where she grammar requires "ku'o" where "ku" didn't actually look the word and is.) place structure up, I guess. 82Ivan: Ought to be "He was 80Nora: This is when I finally already on the top". I reckon figured this metaphor out; I think I've been having trouble saying the "angrily" helped. `already'. 145 sudden smile illuminating his face. His eyes radiate, emoting .i ®lu do ?mo li'uЇ tcica preti fi the silent satisfaction.83 His fo'a sepi'o lo rufsu voksa hands loosen84. He looks at the "What are you?" slyly asks Evil- toasting nobility85. Looking un- Spirit with a rough voice. derneath to the crying and the "Who art thou?" slyly and hoarsely cursing of the gray, ragged crowd. asked the Devil. Looking, but not a muscle in his face reacts. It is illuminated .i ®lu mi nobli ji'u leka cerda and happy and pleased. He sees a .ije lei cevni mi bruna .i .uicai crowd dressed for celebration be- ge le terdi cu je'a melbi gi le low86. What were moans are remna cu je'a gleki88 li'uЇ paeans87. "I am a noble89 by birth, and the gods are my brothers. Ah!, but the earth is truly beautiful and __________________________________ the people are truly happy." Lojbab: I can see two tu'u interpretations of "already" given The End. only the English word, so don't feel bad. Given that his memory .i di'u se finti la xristoz. has changed in the way it has, he smirnensk.90 gi'e se fanva la may not remember the climbing, and .iVAN. derJANSK. fo le banblgaria thus is already at the top (This si'u la nitcion. nikolas. might be "ba'anai cpana le This was written by Christo gapru"). Or, in the sense that Smirnensk, and translated by Ivan you suggest with "snada", he is in from Bulgarian aided by Nick the aftermath of climbing the last Nicholas. step ("ba'o cpare fi le gapru"). fa'o 83Ivan: He enjoys his belief that THE END he is a prince by birth, and has always been one. 84Ivan: His fists, actually. But it is the same thing. 85Ivan: "He looked at the feasting/banquetting princes." 86Ivan: `crowds' wearing holiday garments, such as are worn only on special days (e.g. Sundays). __________________________________ their current status at "ca" - 87Ivan: Literally. "the moans they may still be moans. were already hymns". The "pu" is my addition. 88Ivan: Exclamation. "Oh, how beautiful is the earth and how Lojbab: Shades of our classic happy are the people!" Again, the example of "le": "le nanmu cu "je'a" is for symmetry, in the ninmu". Of course they are still place of what was "to'e" but a moans, but he doesn't know that. while ago. In the original Maybe a "pe'i" to make this clear. ".oicai" and ".uicai" were the Thus you might want "rolo" same interjection. instead of "le", to clarify which reality the author prefers to 89Ivan: Lit. "a prince". assume. Remember that Lojban's simple 90Ivan: The author's pen name is tenses are aorist; i.e. saying Smirnenski (I lojbanised it by that they were moans in the past cutting off the "-i", which only with "pu" makes no claim about indicates that he's a man). 146 __________________________________