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{maketoc}
Logicians have always known that there were “funny ifs” out there, but it is only in the last couple of decades that any serious progress has been made in figuring out the logic (mainly the semantics) of these connectives (if that is what they are).  While they have not reached a consensus (or even officially decided that there are several related notions here which each needs an elaboration – the usual situation with modal notions), the list of types they have isolated may be useful to have before us.  To be sure, most of this does not affect anything in the language per se and very little of it affects our use of it (some points about negations might be significant).


== Proposed Tags ==
Logicians have – with a few notable exception – preferred the material conditional for their everyday “if… then - - -.” This is equivalent to the inclusive disjunction of the consequent (“then” part) and the denial of the antecedent (“if” part).  It is fully truth functional, and of the four situations this allows, is false only when both the antecedent is true and the consequent is false.  Otherwise it is true.  In addition to this specific false case, the material condition supports the inferences modus ponendo ponens (from “if p then q” and “p” to infer “q”) and modus tollendo tollens (from “if p then q” and “not q” to infer “not p”) and contraposition (from “if p then q” to “if not q then not p”).  But it is true whenever its antecedent is false and also whenever its consequent if true.  Obviously this will not do for the usual subjunctive conditionals, where the antecedent is assumed false to begin with but the conditional may be either true or false (independently even of the truth or falsity of the consequent).


These are words that might be used pedagogically to mark these word types per [http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=Documentation+Standards+For+Lojban].
So the subjunctive conditional is not truth-functional in the usual way (nor is the indicative conditional: “if it is raining I will take an umbrella” which at least does not assume the antecedent is false).  Nor do free logics and supervaluations (truth functional but allowing sentences without values in a given world but perhaps getting values after all if they have the same value in every world in which they have a value) help much.  Typically, a subjunctive conditional would be valueless in a case where the antecedent is false, but that is not very useful, since we are interested in true ones and false ones.  And, at least if we are just running through logical possibilities, as we typically are in working with truth values directly, clearly the conditional will not get the same value in every case where it has a value (where the antecedent is true).  So, the connective involved is not truth-functional at all and we have to consider something more that merely logical possibilities to find out its nature.


* (sumti/bridi-tail/general) afterthought logical connective, which we're just calling ALC
Well, that last bit, while hinted at in the free logic case, is really established by the suggestion that what is involved is strict implication: not just that if p then it just happens that q, but that “if p then q” is necessary.  The trouble with this – in even the weakest systems that have a chance of working for what we want – is that a strict implication is true just if the antecedent is impossible (necessarily false) or the consequent is necessarily true, modal version of the problem with material implication, of which strict implication is just the modal version.
** We might want to come up with something better than "bridi-tail" there.


** needs a Lojban equivalent?
The moral is that subjunctive conditionals must involve some facts, not just logic.  Given the role that such conditionals purportedly play in science, the obvious suggestion is that such a conditional holds just in case it is we can infer the consequent from the antecedent together with all the laws of nature.  But this is immediately inadequate, since many of the most interesting cases begin “if the laws of nature were different is this way, then…” Adding this to the laws of nature would immediately give a contradiction, from which anything at all can be inferred (or nothing can be, if we keep some free logic running here).  But even beyond this formal problem there is the fact that this approach will not work for fairly simple cases: “If my daughter ate pecans, her throat would swell shut.”  The consequent here does not follow from the antecedent plus the laws of nature.  To get to the consequent we need also some facts about my daughter’s body: that it has a histaminic response to juglanin (or all of the details that account for that).
** some piece of documentation needs to specify what "general ALC" actually can connect


* (tanru/general) forethought logical connective (FLC)
So, we must include some facts about the world in addition to the (probably false) p to establish “if p were then q would be.” But what facts?  As few as possible, definitely excluding ~q, is the usual answer.  In possible worlds terms (as the discussion now is almost completely) this means an accessibility relation (what tells what worlds are possible relative to some starting world) that is ordered by similarity to the real world.  So the conditional is true if q is true in the closest world in which p is true.  Ah, but suppose there is no the closest world; what if there are a number of worlds that are equally close (ordering does not have to be linear, after all).  One world changes one little thing beside p, another changes another, but (on some componential analysis of similarity) they are equally similar (each just one thing off).
** some piece of documentation needs to specify what "general FLC" actually can connect


** needs a Lojban equivalent?
Well, then, we take the class of all the equally similar p-worlds that are closest to the real world: the conditional is true if q is true in all of these.  But it may be that the ordering is not only not linear but is also not discrete.  So between any world and the real world there is always another world and it might be that even the p-worlds are dense.  Then there is not such thing as a set of closest p-worlds even.  OK; so now we take all the p-worlds more similar than some bound range.  This can be done in a number of ways, setting different conditions on the bound.  Indeed, the conditions – or at least the bound – may vary with the circumstances under which the conditional is asserted.  All of these come down to, one way or another, that the conditional depends upon the truth of q in selected p-worlds, with the selection intended to give some sense to the notion of a sufficiently similar world to this one.


== Notes ==
But this notion of sufficiently similar is seen by some as too coarse; a finer one looks not at similarity to the whole world but rather similarity to what is relevant in the immediate situation of the utterance (with two wings, depending upon whether “the utterance” is taken to mean the conditional sentence itself or the event of its being uttered).  Thus, the worlds may be wildly different from the real world so long as they are the same in all the relevant aspects. This is again a kind of selection process for worlds, but is meant to model different conditions.  In particular, factors relevant to q as well as to p may be involved.  What these conditions are – in any such theory – will depend on the actual conditional, of course, but – in the utterance dependent case – perhaps also on the conversation in which the conditional is asserted.  In most cases, what the relevant conditions are will appear in the (real or imagined) challenges to the claim: if one response is “Oh, but what if …” the  … has to have been accommodated in the conditions.


* Should we do ijeks as well as jeks? That would simplify the jek definitions, but should we bother?
A particular way of establishing similarity for a large number of cases rests on the fact (in I-E languages) that subjunctive mode draws its markers at least from the tense system.  If we imagine that time (and its history) are ever branching into the future, that there are as many immediate successors to a given instant as you might want (or the similar notion for dense and continuous orderings), then to worlds (instants) are somewhat similar if they are on branches coming from the same instant and are more similar the more recent the separation was. The conditional, “if p were then q would be” when p is true on a branch from the last time p could have become true which is as far from that juncture as the present (presumably non-p) is and q is true at that same time on that same branch.  This corresponds to many common subjunctive conditionals: “If I had known then what I know now, I would not have opened the door”  “If Hinckley had been a better shot, Reagan would have died in 1982.”  And so on. As the tenses-like forms suggest, the pattern is usually to pick a past event (or rather missed event) as p and an event future to that, though still in a parallel past (no so far along the in the future in its path as now is on this one), both also (one past and one future) to some critical past point (my coming to the door, Hinckley shooting Reagan). Perhaps most conditionals cannot be forced into that mold. Even some that are tensed do not, going instead to a past event and an even further past one: “I Reagan had died in 1982, Hinckley would have been a better shot. The consensus is that most such conditionals are, like this one, clearly false (though attempts to explain this have often led to validating really awful conditionals of this sort  -- the simple answer seems usually to be that generally, a given event might come about from a variety of causes while the effects of an event are narrower: Hinckley’s shot basically either kills Reagan or does not, but Reagan might have died – even at about the same time – from any number of causes, not just the shot).
* Unlimited forethought connection would be really nice.  This would need a new cmavo something like {bei}, for all but the last connection.  So {ge ko'a gi ko'e} is unchanged, but {ge ko'a gi'oi ko'e gi ko'i} means the same as {ko'a .e ko'e .e ko'i}{gi} marks "this is the last branch of the next-outer-most FLC".


** < ksion> Plus probably a terminator in case you forgot saying {gi} before the last argument. < ksion> (That's mostly for speech convienience though).
But even aside from these, many interesting conditionals don’t fit this pattern or do so only in rather unhelpful ways.  “If the gravitational constant were 2% greater, then 8 million more people would have broken bones this year” requires going back at least to the formation of the planet, if not the Big Bang and so involves a whole different evolutionary history which we can only guess at (although it does seem that if people evolved, they would have evolved with correspondingly stronger bones). Similarly, conditionals that start off like “If Socrates were a 17th century Irish washerwoman” are not helped by considering alterations in either the 17th century or the -5th as a basis for an alternate history up to “now.” (I’ve never been able to stick with these long enough to discover whether they are about reincarnation or whether the involve a haeceity for Socrates at least that is completely independent of his actual biography yet matches enough of it – but which parts? – to make the consequent interesting: “then there would be at least one bald snub-nosed washerwoman” “then s/he would have been killed early on for asking damned-fool questions” “then s/he would have accepted flight rather than remaining to be executed” “then s/he would have had none of the properties usually associated with Socrates” Go figure!)
* Since all LC are theoretically syntactic sugar for {.i JA}, how to GOhA interact with them?


** Example: {ko'a brode gi'e broda} -- what's {go'i} after that? {ko'a broda}? Or {ko'a brode gi'e broda} whatever that means as single bridi.
All these varied background stories lead to a surprisingly small number of possible logics for subjunctive conditionals.  All of them have modus ponens, all agree that p &amp; ~q anywhere in the area of interest spikes the whole conditionalAll use some selection of the following rules for (subjunctive) conditionals (RC): (> is the subjunctive conditional, -> the material one, => the strict one)
* Also {vo'A}What does {ko'a broda ko'e gi'e brode ko'i vo'e} mean? Does {vo'e} refer to {ko'e} or {ko'i}?


** In most cases it probably should be "refers to the bridi it itself is embedded in".
RCEC: From p ó q to infer (r>p ó r>q)  (Equivalent Consequents)
* What is the meaning of SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than {se}?


* There are gismu equivalents of A and E, but not O and U.  This seems unfortunate.  Does {nibli} count as an equiv of O?
RCK:  From (p1 &amp; …&amp; pn) > q to infer [[r >p1) &amp; … &amp; (r>pn]] => (r > q) 
** We've apparently known this for a while; see [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/563490005c777f3b/7d65a87fc99f8163]


* Speaking of which, what do {kanxe} and {vlina} actually ''mean''?  Is {le kanxe be ko'a bei ko'e cu broda} semantically equivalent to {ko'a .e ko'e cu broda}?  If not, what *is* it semantically equivalent to?
(Konjunction)
** Yet another use/mention problem in the gismu.  How many does that make?


** ksion in #lojban suggests: {la'e lu ko'a broda .ije ko'a brode li'u cu kanxe lo du'u ko'a broda kei lo du'u ko'a brode}, which is horrible; I (camgusmis) would rather redefine than be stuck with shit like that.
RCEA: From p ó q to infer (p>r) ó (q>r)  (Equivalent Antecedents)
** {i lo du'u ge broda gi brode cu kanxe lo du'u broda kei lo du'u brode} from dbrock; same thing


* xorxes had a proposal that replaces ''all'' the logical connectives with JA, which is rather impressive.  See [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/131b44ba66d8a108/bac4b378caafbdeb]
RCE:   From p => q to infer p>q
* All of the definitions need Lindar's touch - I mean, they need expanding into something more, um, conversational English. - .aionys., at prompting from arj.


* Order of operations for multiple sumti connectives in a bridi needs to be resolved. Is {ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'a .e fo'e} the same as {ko'a broda fo'a .e fo'e .i ja ko'e broda fo'a .e fo'e} (LtR) or is it {ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'a .i je ko'a .a ko'e broda fo'e} (RtL, which would be unusual, or if "and" takes precedence over "or", as in many formal systems)?
They then aim at validating all tautologies and some selection of the following theses:


== Impact ==
Transitivity: [[p>q) &amp; (q>r]] => (p>r)


The current definitions are expected to have no particular impact;
Contraposition: (p>~q) => (q>~p)


they should just clarify the current state.
Strengthening Antecedent: (p>q) => [p &amp; r)>q)


==  Proposed Definitions and Examples ==
ID: p>p


===  cmavo: .a (A) ===
MOD (p>q) => (p => q)


====  Proposed Definition ====
CSO [[p>q) &amp; (q>p]] => [[p>r) ó (q>r]]


A sumti ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for at least one of the connected sumti.
CV  [[p>q) &amp; ~(p>~r]] => [p &amp; r)>q)


====  See Also ====
CEM (p>q) v (p>~q)


* {.e}
CS (p &amp; q) => (p>q)
* {.o}


* {.u}
CC [[p>q) &amp; (p>r]] => (p>(q &amp; r]
* {ji}


* {vlina}
CM (p>(q &amp; r] => [[p>q) &amp; (p>r]]


====  Proposed Keywords ====
CA [[p>q) &amp; (r>q]] => [p v r) => q)


* or (sumti ALC, inclusive)
SDA [[p v q)>r) => [p>r) &amp; (q>r]]
* inclusive or (sumti ALC)


* and/or (sumti ALC)
The well-developed systems take the following sets:


====  Usage Examples ====
VW: RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV


;.i ju'o la .alis. .a la .bab. djuno:I’m sure Alice or Bob knows.
SS:   RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CA, CS


;.i mi na ponse lo jdini .a lo kacma:I have neither money nor a camera.
VC: RCED, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV, CS


===  cmavo: .e (A) ===
C2: RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV, CEM


==== Proposed Definition ====
In addition to subjunctive conditionals there are several other conditionals that require some attention. The “might if” conditional, “if p were, then q might be” is generally conceded to be just `~(p>~q)’ (however `>’ is defined). On the “even if” conditional, there are three possibilities discussed.  Either “p would be even if q were” is `p &amp; (q>p)’ (which would combine with CS to mean that any time ‘p &amp; q’ is true, so is “p even if q” would be) or it is just `q>p’ uttered when p is true or it is `(q>p) &amp; (~q>p).’ 


A sumti ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for each of the connected sumti.
For indicative conditionals like “if it rains I will take my umbrella” the easiest solution is that this is what the material conditional is for.  Of course, taking that line – which works out right in the easy cases – makes the first three conditionals on the list of theses true and we may not want some of them.  Contraposition in particular is a problem, since, “if it is after 3 a.m., it is not much after 3 a.m.” is sometimes true, whereas “if it is much after 3 a.m., then it is not after 3 a.m.” is pretty clearly false.  Further, while I might deny, “If the butler didn’t do it than I did it” since I are sure that I didn’t do it, we might accept the equivalent “Either the butler did it or I did it” if we were sure the butler did it. If we want to save this handy theory, we have to distinguish between the truth conditions of the sentence and the conditions for its assertion. Thus, although the troublesome conditionals here may be strictly true, they may also be inappropriate to utter in the indicted situation: in the butler case that it is inappropriate to assert a weaker sentence


==== See Also ====
(~p v q, p -> q) when we can assert a stronger one that implies it (~p, q). That is the examples seem wrong only because they are inappropriate, not because they are false.  If we allow truth-value gaps, the situation becomes somewhat tidier still, since a material conditional in that case is simply valueless when its antecedent is false. Or we can say that we just don’t care what the value is then and ignore embarrassing cases where the antecedent is false.


* {.a}
The second possibility is to take indicative conditionals as what some theory of subjunctive conditionals that you think is wrong thinks are subjunctive conditionals. The favorite for this is C2 with the near world selection involving the shared presuppositions that have been built up in the conversation up to the point where the conditional is uttered, which are not involved in establishing the n3ear worlds for the subjunctive case.  The other possibility is CV, which is arrived at first by dealing only with probabilities: pr(p>q) = pr(p &amp; q)/pr(p), the conditional probability of q on p.  `p>q’ is true just in case pr(q/p) than some set value (the acceptability level again – something like this can be worked out for fuzzy logics as well, of course – which value shifts with the situation).  When this is transferred to validity (true in all models/worlds), the system turns out to be CV, which has nothing overtly to say about probabilities.
* {.o}


* {.u}
None of these systems works for all cases and none of them really says much about deciding in a given case whether the conditional is true.  Happily, we are doing language building not logic here and so all we need come up with are ways of expressing the various conditionals in Lojban.  I would like to suggest the following.
* {ji}


* {kanxe}
For indicative conditionals, we should go with the otherwise fairly useless material conditional so built into the language.  We obviously take it in the “don’t really give a damn when the antecedent is false” sense and also accept the pragmatic restrictions on what can be uttered (appropriately).


====  Proposed Keywords ====
For the “might if” conditional we should accept the identification that is general in logic.


* and (sumti ALC)
For the “even if” conditional we should take the basic “p even if q” to be `(q>p)’ when p is thought to be true and (assuming ~q is thought more likely that q) `(~q>p) &amp; (q>p)’ otherwise.
* but (sumti ALC)


* both (sumti ALC)
Which all assumes we something for subjunctive conditionals.  For that I suggest that usage has already suggested {da’i} for the antecedent.  As a UI, {da’i} can go anywhere, but usage suggests either sentence initial  (or just before a guhek for compound sentences) or in the tense location, after the first argument and before the selbri.  This is actually a stronger move than merely subjunctive conditional, for {da’i} can be taken as setting up a hypothetical world which them persists until explicitly dropped with {da’inai}.  The conditional is a special case with only one sentence in the scope of the {da’i} (or longer discussions are elaborated conditionals with long conjunctions of claims as consequents).  This may make it difficult to express some of the theses of conditional logic, but these are mainly to be used, not stated.  We will find ways to say them when we need them.  We do need to work out how to interpret new {da’i}s within the scope of existing ones, although this seems pretty obvious – they become in effect either a conjunction under a single {da’i} or more literally go off to a world alternate to the alternate world already reached.  What the consequences of either way of doing this are is not immediately clear (and probably depends upon which conditional logic we use – they were bound to come in somewhere).


==== Usage Examples ====
Advantages: have a uniform way of saying things we have been having trouble saying for 50 years.  Disadvantage: we will have to clean up all those earlier attempts (but people did more cursing than creating in this area, so there may not be much).  


;.i makfa do .e nai mi:Magic to you but not to me.
(All of this material is shamelessly cribbed from Donald Nute, “Conditional Logic” pp 387 - 439 of Volume II of The Handbook of Philosophical Logic (first edition, as it now is), Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1984.   This paper has a good beginning bibliography if you want to chase this topic down.)
 
===  cmavo: .o (A) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A sumti ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for both or neither of the connected sumti.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {.a}
* {.e}
 
* {.u}
* {ji}
 
====  Proposed Keywords: ====
 
* if and only if (sumti ALC)
* iff (sumti ALC)
 
* both or neither (sumti ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;.i mi djica tu'a lo jipci .o lo finpe:I want chicken if and only if I want fish. (This might be implied in English anyway using "if" instead of "if and only if")
 
;.i mi .o la .alis. salci:Alice and I will both celebrate, or neither of us will.
 
===  cmavo cluster: .o nai (A*) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A sumti ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for exactly one of the connected sumti.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {.a}
* {.e}
 
* {.o}
* {.u}
 
* {ji}
* {nai}
 
====  Proposed Keywords: ====
 
* exclusive or (sumti ALC)
* or (sumti ALC, exclusive)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;do onai lo drata ba pinxe:Either you or another, but not both, will drink.
 
;do ca tadni lo samske .onai lo cmaci:You are either studying computer science or math.
 
;do kakne lenu pilno le barda skami .onai le cmalu skami ku ma:Under what conditions are you able to use either a big computer or a small computer, but not both?
 
===  cmavo: .u (A) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A sumti ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for the first of connected sumti.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {.a}
* {.e}
 
* {.o}
* {ji}
 
====  Proposed Keywords: ====
 
* whether (sumti connective)
* whether or not (sumti connective)
 
* regardless (sumti connective)
* disregardless (sumti connective)
 
* irrespective (sumti connective)
* no matter (sumti connective)
 
* disregarding (sumti connective)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;mi citka lo cirla .u lo nanba:I eat chese whether or not I eat bread.
 
;fanza mi u do:That annoys me whether or not it annoys you.
 
;mi nelci la jbovlaste se .u nai la .noraluj.:I like jbovlaste, or I like neither jbovlaste nor noralujv.
 
;.i mi djica tu'a lo jipci .u lo finpe:I want chicken whether or not I want the fish.
 
===  cmavo: ji (A) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
The sumti ALC question: asks the listener to supply a sumti ALC that makes the containing bridi true.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {.a}
* {.e}
 
* {.o}
* {.u}
 
* {preti}
* {cuxna}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (sumti ALC, question)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
Note that "or" doesn't really capture the Lojban here very well,
 
because any sumti ALC is legal here, but it's about the best we can
 
do.
 
;.i do pinxe lo ckafi ji lo tcati .i na .e:Are you drinking coffee or tea? — The latter.
 
;.i doi .bancus. pau le cmene be do cu srana lo'u ban cus le'u ji zo bancu:Bancus, is your name related to “ban cus” or to “bancu”?
 
===  cmavo: ga (GA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general FLC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for at least one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ge}
* {go}
 
* {gu}
* {ge'i}
 
* {gi}
* {vlina}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (general FLC, inclusive)
* inclusive or (general FLC)
 
* and/or (general FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ga le jintyke'a cu mutce le ka condi gi abu mutce le ka masno le nu farlu:Either the well was very deep or Alice was falling very slowly.
 
;.ue sai ga mi xamgu se funca gi ti na mutce vlipa:Either I'm lucky, or that's not very powerful, or both.
 
;.i .u'u ga lo se cpedu cu na cumki gi do snada lo nu cfipu mi:I'm sorry, either that request is not possible, or you've succeeded at confusing me, or both.
 
===  cmavo: ge (GA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general FLC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for both of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {go}
 
* {gu}
* {ge'i}
 
* {gi}
* {kanxe}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* and (general FLC)
* but (general FLC)
 
* both (general FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;abu tolmorji le nu ge abu ca kilto la ractu le ka barda giseki'ubo noda krinu le nu terpa ry:Alice forgot that she was a thousand times bigger than Rabbit and therefore had no reason to fear it.
 
;la .zim. la .gr. ge mulno se selfu gi minde lo za'i morsi:Zim is completely the master of Gr, and commands Gr to cause death.
 
===  cmavo: go (GA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general FLC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for both or neither of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {ge}
 
* {gu}
* {gi}
 
* {ge'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* if and only if (general FLC)
* iff (general FLC)
 
* both or neither (general FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;go mi na ponse lo cidja gi mi nitcu lonu klama lo cidrjpitsa zarci:I need to go to the pizza store if and only if I don't have any food.
 
;ro da ro de zo'u go da de mamta gi da fetsi gi'e rirni de:For all X and Y, X is the mother of Y if and only if X is female and reared Y.
 
;.i'e go tolju'i gi ju'o ru'e cliva:Yeah, if [[jbocre: you're|you're]] ignoring [[jbocre: us?]], [[jbocre: you|you]] should maybe leave.
 
===  cmavo cluster: go nai (GA*) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general FLC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for exactly one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {ge}
 
* {go}
* {gu}
 
* {gi}
* {ge'i}
 
* {nai}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* exclusive or (sumti ALC)
* or (sumti ALC, exclusive)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;gonai do sarji mi gi do sarji lo sonci:You're either with us or with the soldiers.
 
;gonai mi dunda le cidja gi le bifce ba nelci mi:Either I give food or the bees won't like me.
 
;gonai vi mi snime carvi gi mi fenki:Either it's snowing here or I'm crazy.
 
===  cmavo: gu (GA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general FLC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for the first of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {ge}
 
* {go}
* {gi}
 
* {ge'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* whether (sumti FLC)
* whether or not (sumti FLC)
 
* regardless (sumti FLC)
* disregardless (sumti FLC)
 
* irrespective (sumti FLC)
* no matter (sumti FLC)
 
* disregarding (sumti FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;.i .ia mi pu na'e sanji krici lo du'u se gu li'a mutce xamgu gi la'a na'e mutce zdile ja cinri:I think I was unconsciously believing that, whether or not it was clearly very good, it probably wasn’t very amusing or interesting.
 
;.i gu srana gi to'e melbi:It's relevant, whether or not it's ugly.
 
;lo nu do kakne lo nu ciksi bau la .lojban. cu se gu nandu gi se jgira ko:Being able to explain it in Lojban should, whether or not it is difficult, make you feel pride.
 
===  cmavo: ge'i (GA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
The general FLC question: asks the listener to supply a FLC that makes the containing statement true.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {ge}
 
* {go}
* {gu}
 
* {gi}
* {preti}
 
* {cuxna}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (general FLC, question)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
Note that "or" doesn't really capture the Lojban very well, because any general FLC
 
is legal here, but it's about the best we can do.
 
;do zanru ge'i lo du'u na pinka gi lo mi gunka stuzi:Do you approve of me not commenting or of my workplace?
 
;doi .timos. la .xongcun. cu ge'i du le de'u pendo be do gi jimpe fi dei :Tim, is xongcun the friend of yours you just mentioned or capable of understanding this?
 
;la cizra ge'i cizra gi ninmu:Is Cizra strange or a woman?
 
===  cmavo: gi'a (SELMAHO) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A bridi-tail ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for at least one of the connected bridi tails.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'e}
* {gi'o}
 
* {gi'u}
* {gi'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (bridi-tail ALC, inclusive)
* inclusive or (bridi-tail ALC)
 
* and/or (bridi-tail ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ko zifre ba'e gi'a morsi:Be free or die!  Or both!
 
;mu'a fi ko cfika gi'a pemci:For example, you should write fiction or poetry, or both.
 
;ma nuzba gi'a se zukte do doi timonator:What's new or being done by you, Timonator?
 
===  cmavo: gi'e (GIhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A bridi-tail ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for both of the connected bridi tails.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'a}
* {gi'o}
 
* {gi'u}
* {gi'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* and (sumti ALC)
* but (sumti ALC)
 
* both (sumti ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;baziku la alis mo'ine'i jersi ry gi'e noroi pensi le du'u ta'iba'e makau abu ba za'ure'u bartu:Shortly, Alice chased R inside, and never thought about how she would get out again.
 
;mi sanli gi'e cortu lo xadni trixe:I stand and feel pain in the back of my body.
 
;le i'u dargu cu clani gi'e jai nandu:The familiar road is long and difficult.
 
===  cmavo: gi'o (GIhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A bridi-tail ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for both or neither of the connected bridi tails.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'a}
* {gi'e}
 
* {gi'u}
* {gi'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* if and only if (bridi-tail ALC)
* iff (bridi-tail ALC)
 
* both or neither (bridi-tail ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;fasnu gi'o pixra;Pics or it didn't happen.
 
;ro da danlu gi'o se cidja:Everything is an animal and everything is edible, or neither.
 
;mi rivbi tu'a le glibau gi'o tavla lo jbopre:I avoid English and I talk to Lojbanists, or neither.
 
===  cmavo cluster: gi'o nai (GIhA*) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A bridi-tail ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for exactly one of the connected bridi tails.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'a}
* {gi'e}
 
* {gi'o}
* {gi'u}
 
* {gi'i}
* {nai}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* exclusive or (sumti ALC)
* or (sumti ALC, exclusive)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;pe'a le merko ca blanu gi'o nai xunre:Speaking figuratively, an American is now either Red or Blue.
 
;.e'u nai sai zgana gi'o nai gunka:Careful!  Observation or work, not both.
 
;sipna gi'onai mrobi'o co'o:Sleep or death.  Bye!
 
===  cmavo: gi'u (GIhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A bridi-tail ALC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for the first of the connected bridi tails.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'a}
* {gi'e}
 
* {gi'o}
* {gi'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* whether (sumti FLC)
* whether or not (sumti FLC)
 
* regardless (sumti FLC)
* disregardless (sumti FLC)
 
* irrespective (sumti FLC)
* no matter (sumti FLC)
 
* disregarding (sumti FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;se jimpe gi'u drani:That's comprehensible, whether or not it's correct.
 
;zo je zmadu zo .e le ka xamgu gi'u gendra:"je" is better than ".e", whether or not "je" is grammatically correct.
 
;do skicu gi'u sanji vau la .samxarmuj.:You are describing samxarmuj, whether or not you're aware of samxarmuj's existence.
 
===  cmavo: gi'i (GIhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
The bridi-tail ALC question: asks the listener to supply a bridi-tail ALC that makes the containing bridi true.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gi'a}
* {gi'e}
 
* {gi'o}
* {gi'u}
 
* {preti}
* {cuxna}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (bridi-tail ALC, question)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
Note that "or" doesn't really capture the Lojban very well, because any
 
bridi-tail ALC is legal here, but it's about the best we can do.
 
;pe'u doi ninmu ti nuzlo gi'i sralo:Please, miss, is this New Zealand or Australia?
 
;do djica lo nu ba tavla la .deivid. gi'i ca tavla lo drata:Do you want to talk to David later or someone else now?
 
;do speni gi'i se panzi:Are you married or a parent?
 
===  cmavo: gu'a (GUhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A tanru FLC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for at least one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'e}
* {gu'o}
 
* {gu'u}
* {gu'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (tanru FLC, inclusive)
* inclusive or (tanru FLC)
 
* and/or (tanru FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
The ''only'' usage in the wild we could find:
 
;.a'o la .nukis. gu'a nai troci gi na'e snada lo nu fanva di'u:I hope that nukis either does not try or other-than-succeeds at translating that.
 
Artifical example:
 
;mi gu'a jukpa gi citka lo sanmi:I either cook or eat the meal or both.
 
===  cmavo: gu'e (GUhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A tanru FLC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for both of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'a}
* {gu'o}
 
* {gu'u}
* {gu'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* and (tanru FLC)
* but (tanru FLC)
 
* both (tanru FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;.ie gu'e smuni gi nai gerna dunli:I agree, meaningful but not grammatically equivalent.
 
;mi gu'e jmive gi xabju:I both live and dwell somewhere.
 
===  cmavo: gu'o (GUhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A tanru FLC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for both or neither of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'a}
* {gu'e}
 
* {gu'u}
* {gu'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* if and only if (tanru-internal FLC)
* iff (tanru-internal FLC)
 
* both or neither (tanru-internal FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
''terpa gu'o lo za'i terpa''<br />
 
( ! sole usage, incorrect ! )<br />
 
Artificial:
 
''.i mi nelci lo karce noi gu'o blanu gi xunre''<br />
 
I like cars which are any colour that isn't blue or red, unless it's blue and red simultaneously.
 
===  cmavo cluster: gu'o nai (GUhA*) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A tanru FLC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for exactly one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'a}
* {gu'e}
 
* {gu'o}
* {gu'u}
 
* {gu'i}
* {nai}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* exclusive or (tanru-internal FLC)
* or (tanru-internal FLC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
Artificial Example:
 
;.i ko gu'o nai gasnu gi na gasnu .i lo nu troci na zasti:Do or do not. There is no try.
 
===  cmavo: gu'u (SELMAHO) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A tanru FLC such that the containing bridi is true if and only if it is true for the first of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'a}
* {gu'e}
 
* {gu'o}
* {gu'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* whether (sumti connective)
* whether or not (sumti connective)
 
* regardless (sumti connective)
* disregardless (sumti connective)
 
* irrespective (sumti connective)
* no matter (sumti connective)
 
* disregarding (sumti connective)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
( ! no natural usage ! )<br />
 
Artificial Example:
 
;.i mi gu'u dasni be lo kosta be'o gi lenku:I wear a coat whether or not I am cold.
 
===  cmavo: gu'i (GUhA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
The tanru FLC question: asks the listener to supply a tanru FLC that makes the containing bridi true.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {gu'a}
* {gu'e}
 
* {gu'o}
* {gu'u}
 
* {preti}
* {cuxna}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (tanru FLC, question)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
Note that "or" doesn't really capture the Lojban here very well, because any
 
tanru FLC is legal here, but it's about the best we can do.
 
Artificial Example:
 
;.i pau do te cukta gu'i te skina:Are you a book-author or a film creator?
 
===  cmavo: gi (GI) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
Seperates the first from the second clause in a general FLC construct.
 
Converts a non-logical connective into a coordinating conjunction.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ga}
* {ge}
 
* {go}
* {gu}
 
* {ge'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
None; there's nothing like this in English except maybe comma.
 
Someone suggested:
 
* coordinating, connective, conjunction, medial
 
but but those are mentions, not uses; that is: no-one is going to look up "medial" in a dictionary and be happy that they found "gi", since it doesn't ''mean'' "medial", or anything like it.
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ge nai lo xanto gi nai lo smacu cu xunryblabi:Neither an elephant nor a mouse is pink.
 
;ganai mi gunka lo valsi gi mi zmanei la rubis.:If I'm working on words, then I prefer Ruby. (Discussion on programming languages)
 
;mi ge cliva gi .ai xrukla: I'm leaving, and I intend to come back.
 
;.i ku'i pu za tavla fi joi gi lo skina gi lo skami:But were talking about both movies and computers
 
====  Notes ====
 
* "coordinating conjunction"?  Is that correct?  What doet that mean?
 
* What about the keywords?
 
===  cmavo: ja (JA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general ALC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for at least one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {je}
* {jo}
 
* {ju}
* {je'i}
 
* {vlina}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (general ALC, inclusive)
* inclusive or (general ALC)
 
* and/or (general ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ji'a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja nuncasnu:And what is the use, thought Alice, of a book with no pictures or conversations (or both) in it?
 
;la norsmu so'i roi prije ja pemci cusku:Norsmu many times expresses wise or poetic (or both) things.
 
;.u'i nai lo crida na kakne lo nu jimpe ja cusku bau la lojban:*sigh* Monsters are not able to undertand or speak Lojban.
 
;do cizra .ija mi bebna:You're strange.  Or I'm foolish.  Or both.
 
====  Notes ====
 
*  May be combined with PU to indicate multiple tenses.
 
===  cmavo: je (JA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general ALC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for both of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ja}
* {jo}
 
* {ju}
* {je'i}
 
* {kanxe}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* and (general ALC)
* but (general ALC)
 
* both (general ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ku'i co'a bajra ca le nu djica ije co'u bajra ca la nu djica:But start walking when you want.  And stop walking when you want.
 
;clani je cizra cmene:That's a long and strange name.
 
;pu troci je ku'i .o'unai fliba lo zmadu:We tried but, unfortunately, failed to do more.
 
;.i ro ko ca je ba gleki .a'o:"Everybody be happy and keep being happy!"
 
;ko pilno la mymbl pu je ba lonu litru:"Use Mumble before and after travelling."
 
;le pu je ba nolraitru:"The once and future king!"
 
;mi pu je ca ca'o citka lei grasu patlu:"I was an am now in the process of eating the greasy potatoes."
 
====  Notes ====
 
*  May be combined with PU to indicate multiple tenses.
 
===  cmavo: jo (JA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general ALC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for both or neither of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ja}
* {je}
 
* {ju}
* {je'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* if and only if (general ALC)
* iff (general ALC)
 
* both or neither (general ALC)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
FIXME:
 
;.ei troci jubo snada jo cilre:Either I try (whether or not I succeed) and learn, or neither.
 
;da prenu jo nelci be lo'e mlatu:Either something is a person and likes cats, or neither.
 
;mi kakne lo nu viska .i jo mi na sipna:Either I am able to look and I am not asleep, or neither.
 
====  Notes ====
 
*  May be combined with PU to indicate multiple tenses.
 
===  cmavo cluster: jo nai (JA*) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general ALC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for exactly one of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ja}
* {je}
 
* {jo}
* {ju}
 
* {je'i}
* {nai}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* exclusive or (general ALC)
* or (general ALC, exclusive)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ko stali le'o .i jo nai gau mi fagri le do zdani:Stop, or I'll set your house on fire!
 
;do vitke la jbonunsla .i jo nai mabla do:Come to jbonunsla or you suck.
 
;ko sutra cadzu .i jo nai do ba farlu:Walk quickly, or you will fall!
 
===  cmavo: ju (JA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
A general ALC such that the containing statement is true if and only if it is true for the first of the connected phrases.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ja}
* {je}
 
* {jo}
* {je'i}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* whether (general connective)
* whether or not (general connective)
 
* regardless (general connective)
* disregardless (general connective)
 
* irrespective (general connective)
* no matter (general connective)
 
* disregarding (general connective)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ge mi di'i nai bilma gi ji'a mi di'i nai jibri gunki .i ju mi gleki:I'm sometimes sick and also I somtimes work.  Whether or not I'm happy.
 
;.i ke'u mi cakla .i se ju bo mi curmi lo nu do citka mi:Repeating: I'm chocolate, whether or not I allow you to eat me.
 
;drani ju vrude:True, whether or not virtuous.
 
====  Notes ====
 
*  May be combined with PU to indicate multiple tenses.
 
===  cmavo: je'i (JA) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
The general ALC question: asks the listener to supply a general ALC that makes the containing statement true.
 
====  See Also ====
 
* {ja}
* {je}
 
* {jo}
* {ju}
 
* {preti}
* {cuxna}
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
* or (general ALC, question)
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
;ro valsi poi pu'i je'i ka'e se pilno:All words can be or have been used?
 
;skina je'i se tivni:Movie or television?
 
;do bruna je'i mensi mi doi lindar:Are you my brother or sister, Lindar?
 
====  Notes ====
 
*  May be combined with PU to indicate multiple tenses.
 
~tc~
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''.ija'' ===
 
;'''.ija''' (JA*): sentence or -- logical connective: sentence afterthought or --
 
** Keywords:
 
===  Examples of ''.ija'' Usage ===
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''.ije'' ===
 
;'''.ije''' (JA*): sentence and -- logical connective: sentence afterthought and --
 
** Keywords:
 
===  Examples of ''.ije'' Usage ===
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''.ije'i'' ===
 
;'''.ije'i''' (JA*): sentence conn ? -- logical connective: sentence afterthought conn question --
 
** Keywords:
 
===  Examples of ''.ije'i'' Usage ===
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''.ijo'' ===
 
;'''.ijo''' (JA*): sentence iff -- logical connective: sentence afterthought biconditional/iff/if-and-only-if --
 
** Keywords:
 
===  Examples of ''.ijo'' Usage ===
 
===  Proposed Definition of ''.iju'' ===
 
;'''.iju''' (JA*): sentence whether -- logical connective: sentence afterthought whether-or-not --
 
** Keywords:
 
===  Examples of ''.iju'' Usage ===
 
~/tc~
 
~tc~
 
===  cmavo: xxx (SELMAHO) ===
 
====  Proposed Definition ====
 
====  See Also ====
 
====  Proposed Keywords ====
 
====  Usage Examples ====
 
====  Notes ====
 
====  Issues ====
 
~/tc~
 
== Relevant prior discussions ==
 
===  Syntax ===
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/575ef0d0130f5dfa/fbc21c895ea7e7db]<br />
 
A parser bug that causes ''li revo .a li pare'' to not be recognized, because it needs LALR(2).
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/131b44ba66d8a108/bac4b378caafbdeb]<br />
 
Unification of all logical connectives into selma'o JA.
 
[http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Allow+forethought+sumti+tail+connection roposal] to allow FLC tanru conn inside of gadri. (this already seems to work by some parsers)
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/29ca7d8d4ac7b045/47216c973d48c8ae]<br />
 
A proposal for a new “narrative connective”.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/654fd661714280ab/d86c7be1eaea0f6c]<br />
 
A proposal for adding GI+JOI as a gihek.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/4b186a2b0ee97300/6ff8942d86acdf3b]<br />
 
NUhU_gap as a cheat to avoid having more logical connectives.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/c5c29b58f5b55844/b066953d785461c5]<br />
 
Proposal: allow jeks wherever joiks are allowed
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/417d12c084a1f1b1/58c543b6edd9c5bb]<br />
 
A Zipfean argument against making ji the tanru afterthought connective question
 
[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jboske/message/3026]<br />
 
Inconsistent order of logical connectives with different types of tags
 
[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/jboske/message/2665]<br />
 
Inconsistency in the syntax of tanru-internal forethought logical connectives
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/93fb5ae01c9004d2/5c32c8805e30dadf]<br />
 
A change proposal so that geks can be used in both bridi-tails and sentences.
 
===  Semantics ===
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/db7aeb8673367cc9]<br />
 
Whether or not jeks in tanru in description sumti can be expanded to eks between sumti.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/74ebb9b641d29581/da2e404d84be9713]<br />
 
What is the meaning of SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than se?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/d16e34b4b7a6b86d/1218a918bc69ff13]<br />
 
All logical connectives expand to bridi logical connection.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/fb116c898bffaf40/bd23fe39e5ea494e]<br />
 
On the relationship between logical connectives and quantifiers.
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/648a3ad2bf6d5a4c/69788377c36fc3a4]<br />
 
In tense constructs, what binds more tightly of connectives or modifiers?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/411b216008b6bc2e/cb1f5031b8b8c301]<br />
 
How do logical connectives interact with intensional descriptions?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/68ea52479af6de13/f181255b8a32e345]<br />
 
SE + logical connective, when the SE is something other than se, is nonsense
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/928ecca8e7cab2a0/d25e56fc00f677c6]<br />
 
How do quantified tenses work when they tag a sumti with logical connectives?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/f118dc3d365bef06/a58f848ee6a9c0dd]<br />
 
How do logical connectives interact with intensional descriptions?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/1d9caabd2b8abc3/0e21d7388838e537]<br />
 
The use of da'i in hypothetical implications
 
===  Scope ===
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/f93bfd5b099a3487/2797d3b6427230d3]<br />
 
Do variables scope over logical connectives?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/14b46750fb6f29a4/e39efe9efead6469]<br />
 
How far does the scope of a prenex extend?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/860de16cdfa5222e/963d9a1f874f313f]<br />
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/60ba8c5338249aee/99bd5da231aef65d]<br />
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/c246dc4fe8d77681/218f03984b1085ff]<br />
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/792da8bce6712834/6dfc1081a1b7d907]<br />
 
Imperative connectives. What is the Lojban translation of “Stop, or I'll shoot”? Do imperatives scope over ijeks?
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/6d04858f0ee8153b/e08e347f0d2b66a9]<br />
 
zo'e doesn't preserve identity across logical connectives.
 
===  Distribution/expansion ===
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/db7aeb8673367cc9]<br />
 
Distribution of connectives in tanru
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/490556aeccff6444/296d026d3ccc0710]<br />
 
Distribution of sumti logical connectives
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/84f40bcff10a6955/51747f4034c8110e]<br />
 
Distribution of tanru modification over logical connectives
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/cb26a0e38c54dab8/d38cd375b2298397]<br />
 
Distribution of sumti logical connectives
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/9a6093d2f3b8fc1c/21750dfb5f267039]<br />
 
Distributive or non-distributive grouping of tanru-internal logical connectives
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/1f589af7e00ce19a/7f7cac5a3d73981c]<br />
 
Logical connectives can't expand out of abstractions, which are referentially opaque
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/5eca5ed131b1a814/e026184d79ff8fb8]<br />
 
Tense logical connection is expandable
 
[http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/490556aeccff6444/d3c617d936314822]<br />
 
What is the correct expansion of a bridi where multiple of the arguments have logical connectives?
 
==  Other Crap ==
 
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/63e514db05e398d8 nteraction with SE].
* [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/ca5384a8f40d4780 ounterfactuals]
 
==  General Notes ==
 
* We need a way to easily say "would you like cream or sugar or a donut?" using ji or similar.  I *think* this is straightforward, but this is a note to think about it.
 
There was a [http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/browse_thread/thread/e7c1e5c684aa92c3/f1f9ac53ed6910eb ecent discussion] of this that had people present their different solutions. There are two types: the one with {ji} and the ones with choice from a set.<br />
 
do djica A ji B ji C ...
 
The helpful answers can all be covered with "(na).e(nai) .e(nai) ..."<br />
 
<br />
 
''A B zo'u do djica ma''<br />
 
''do djica ma poi cmima A ce B ce C ce ...''<br />
 
''do djica ma poi me A .a B .a C .a ... ''<br />
 
The answers "A", "B", "C", ..., "A joi B", ... "noda", "roda". And if you want to be less than helpful: "pada", "su'oda", "me'ida", and so on.<br />
 
* How do you reply to {do djica lo ladru ji nai lo sakta} if you want both?  Again, might be obvious/well understood, but could use checking.
 
According to xorxes and mark shoulson (in the thread linked above) the answer is .eja'ai, using {ja'ai} aka the cmavo affirmer.
 
* what does {mi djica lo ladru .e nai lo sakta na .e lo titnanba}  mean (double negative)?

Latest revision as of 08:13, 30 June 2014

Logicians have always known that there were “funny ifs” out there, but it is only in the last couple of decades that any serious progress has been made in figuring out the logic (mainly the semantics) of these connectives (if that is what they are). While they have not reached a consensus (or even officially decided that there are several related notions here which each needs an elaboration – the usual situation with modal notions), the list of types they have isolated may be useful to have before us. To be sure, most of this does not affect anything in the language per se and very little of it affects our use of it (some points about negations might be significant).

Logicians have – with a few notable exception – preferred the material conditional for their everyday “if… then - - -.” This is equivalent to the inclusive disjunction of the consequent (“then” part) and the denial of the antecedent (“if” part). It is fully truth functional, and of the four situations this allows, is false only when both the antecedent is true and the consequent is false. Otherwise it is true. In addition to this specific false case, the material condition supports the inferences modus ponendo ponens (from “if p then q” and “p” to infer “q”) and modus tollendo tollens (from “if p then q” and “not q” to infer “not p”) and contraposition (from “if p then q” to “if not q then not p”). But it is true whenever its antecedent is false and also whenever its consequent if true. Obviously this will not do for the usual subjunctive conditionals, where the antecedent is assumed false to begin with but the conditional may be either true or false (independently even of the truth or falsity of the consequent).

So the subjunctive conditional is not truth-functional in the usual way (nor is the indicative conditional: “if it is raining I will take an umbrella” which at least does not assume the antecedent is false). Nor do free logics and supervaluations (truth functional but allowing sentences without values in a given world but perhaps getting values after all if they have the same value in every world in which they have a value) help much. Typically, a subjunctive conditional would be valueless in a case where the antecedent is false, but that is not very useful, since we are interested in true ones and false ones. And, at least if we are just running through logical possibilities, as we typically are in working with truth values directly, clearly the conditional will not get the same value in every case where it has a value (where the antecedent is true). So, the connective involved is not truth-functional at all and we have to consider something more that merely logical possibilities to find out its nature.

Well, that last bit, while hinted at in the free logic case, is really established by the suggestion that what is involved is strict implication: not just that if p then it just happens that q, but that “if p then q” is necessary. The trouble with this – in even the weakest systems that have a chance of working for what we want – is that a strict implication is true just if the antecedent is impossible (necessarily false) or the consequent is necessarily true, modal version of the problem with material implication, of which strict implication is just the modal version.

The moral is that subjunctive conditionals must involve some facts, not just logic. Given the role that such conditionals purportedly play in science, the obvious suggestion is that such a conditional holds just in case it is we can infer the consequent from the antecedent together with all the laws of nature. But this is immediately inadequate, since many of the most interesting cases begin “if the laws of nature were different is this way, then…” Adding this to the laws of nature would immediately give a contradiction, from which anything at all can be inferred (or nothing can be, if we keep some free logic running here). But even beyond this formal problem there is the fact that this approach will not work for fairly simple cases: “If my daughter ate pecans, her throat would swell shut.” The consequent here does not follow from the antecedent plus the laws of nature. To get to the consequent we need also some facts about my daughter’s body: that it has a histaminic response to juglanin (or all of the details that account for that).

So, we must include some facts about the world in addition to the (probably false) p to establish “if p were then q would be.” But what facts? As few as possible, definitely excluding ~q, is the usual answer. In possible worlds terms (as the discussion now is almost completely) this means an accessibility relation (what tells what worlds are possible relative to some starting world) that is ordered by similarity to the real world. So the conditional is true if q is true in the closest world in which p is true. Ah, but suppose there is no the closest world; what if there are a number of worlds that are equally close (ordering does not have to be linear, after all). One world changes one little thing beside p, another changes another, but (on some componential analysis of similarity) they are equally similar (each just one thing off).

Well, then, we take the class of all the equally similar p-worlds that are closest to the real world: the conditional is true if q is true in all of these. But it may be that the ordering is not only not linear but is also not discrete. So between any world and the real world there is always another world and it might be that even the p-worlds are dense. Then there is not such thing as a set of closest p-worlds even. OK; so now we take all the p-worlds more similar than some bound range. This can be done in a number of ways, setting different conditions on the bound. Indeed, the conditions – or at least the bound – may vary with the circumstances under which the conditional is asserted. All of these come down to, one way or another, that the conditional depends upon the truth of q in selected p-worlds, with the selection intended to give some sense to the notion of a sufficiently similar world to this one.

But this notion of sufficiently similar is seen by some as too coarse; a finer one looks not at similarity to the whole world but rather similarity to what is relevant in the immediate situation of the utterance (with two wings, depending upon whether “the utterance” is taken to mean the conditional sentence itself or the event of its being uttered). Thus, the worlds may be wildly different from the real world so long as they are the same in all the relevant aspects. This is again a kind of selection process for worlds, but is meant to model different conditions. In particular, factors relevant to q as well as to p may be involved. What these conditions are – in any such theory – will depend on the actual conditional, of course, but – in the utterance dependent case – perhaps also on the conversation in which the conditional is asserted. In most cases, what the relevant conditions are will appear in the (real or imagined) challenges to the claim: if one response is “Oh, but what if …” the … has to have been accommodated in the conditions.

A particular way of establishing similarity for a large number of cases rests on the fact (in I-E languages) that subjunctive mode draws its markers at least from the tense system. If we imagine that time (and its history) are ever branching into the future, that there are as many immediate successors to a given instant as you might want (or the similar notion for dense and continuous orderings), then to worlds (instants) are somewhat similar if they are on branches coming from the same instant and are more similar the more recent the separation was. The conditional, “if p were then q would be” when p is true on a branch from the last time p could have become true which is as far from that juncture as the present (presumably non-p) is and q is true at that same time on that same branch. This corresponds to many common subjunctive conditionals: “If I had known then what I know now, I would not have opened the door” “If Hinckley had been a better shot, Reagan would have died in 1982.” And so on. As the tenses-like forms suggest, the pattern is usually to pick a past event (or rather missed event) as p and an event future to that, though still in a parallel past (no so far along the in the future in its path as now is on this one), both also (one past and one future) to some critical past point (my coming to the door, Hinckley shooting Reagan). Perhaps most conditionals cannot be forced into that mold. Even some that are tensed do not, going instead to a past event and an even further past one: “I Reagan had died in 1982, Hinckley would have been a better shot.” The consensus is that most such conditionals are, like this one, clearly false (though attempts to explain this have often led to validating really awful conditionals of this sort -- the simple answer seems usually to be that generally, a given event might come about from a variety of causes while the effects of an event are narrower: Hinckley’s shot basically either kills Reagan or does not, but Reagan might have died – even at about the same time – from any number of causes, not just the shot).

But even aside from these, many interesting conditionals don’t fit this pattern or do so only in rather unhelpful ways. “If the gravitational constant were 2% greater, then 8 million more people would have broken bones this year” requires going back at least to the formation of the planet, if not the Big Bang and so involves a whole different evolutionary history which we can only guess at (although it does seem that if people evolved, they would have evolved with correspondingly stronger bones). Similarly, conditionals that start off like “If Socrates were a 17th century Irish washerwoman” are not helped by considering alterations in either the 17th century or the -5th as a basis for an alternate history up to “now.” (I’ve never been able to stick with these long enough to discover whether they are about reincarnation or whether the involve a haeceity for Socrates at least that is completely independent of his actual biography yet matches enough of it – but which parts? – to make the consequent interesting: “then there would be at least one bald snub-nosed washerwoman” “then s/he would have been killed early on for asking damned-fool questions” “then s/he would have accepted flight rather than remaining to be executed” “then s/he would have had none of the properties usually associated with Socrates” Go figure!)

All these varied background stories lead to a surprisingly small number of possible logics for subjunctive conditionals. All of them have modus ponens, all agree that p & ~q anywhere in the area of interest spikes the whole conditional. All use some selection of the following rules for (subjunctive) conditionals (RC): (> is the subjunctive conditional, -> the material one, => the strict one)

RCEC: From p ó q to infer (r>p ó r>q) (Equivalent Consequents)

RCK: From (p1 & …& pn) > q to infer [[r >p1) & … & (r>pn]] => (r > q)

(Konjunction)

RCEA: From p ó q to infer (p>r) ó (q>r) (Equivalent Antecedents)

RCE: From p => q to infer p>q

They then aim at validating all tautologies and some selection of the following theses:

Transitivity: [[p>q) & (q>r]] => (p>r)

Contraposition: (p>~q) => (q>~p)

Strengthening Antecedent: (p>q) => [p & r)>q)

ID: p>p

MOD (p>q) => (p => q)

CSO [[p>q) & (q>p]] => [[p>r) ó (q>r]]

CV [[p>q) & ~(p>~r]] => [p & r)>q)

CEM (p>q) v (p>~q)

CS (p & q) => (p>q)

CC [[p>q) & (p>r]] => (p>(q & r]

CM (p>(q & r] => [[p>q) & (p>r]]

CA [[p>q) & (r>q]] => [p v r) => q)

SDA [[p v q)>r) => [p>r) & (q>r]]

The well-developed systems take the following sets:

VW: RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV

SS: RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CA, CS

VC: RCED, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV, CS

C2: RCEC, RCK, ID, MOD, CSO, MP, CV, CEM

In addition to subjunctive conditionals there are several other conditionals that require some attention. The “might if” conditional, “if p were, then q might be” is generally conceded to be just `~(p>~q)’ (however `>’ is defined). On the “even if” conditional, there are three possibilities discussed. Either “p would be even if q were” is `p & (q>p)’ (which would combine with CS to mean that any time ‘p & q’ is true, so is “p even if q” would be) or it is just `q>p’ uttered when p is true or it is `(q>p) & (~q>p).’

For indicative conditionals like “if it rains I will take my umbrella” the easiest solution is that this is what the material conditional is for. Of course, taking that line – which works out right in the easy cases – makes the first three conditionals on the list of theses true and we may not want some of them. Contraposition in particular is a problem, since, “if it is after 3 a.m., it is not much after 3 a.m.” is sometimes true, whereas “if it is much after 3 a.m., then it is not after 3 a.m.” is pretty clearly false. Further, while I might deny, “If the butler didn’t do it than I did it” since I are sure that I didn’t do it, we might accept the equivalent “Either the butler did it or I did it” if we were sure the butler did it. If we want to save this handy theory, we have to distinguish between the truth conditions of the sentence and the conditions for its assertion. Thus, although the troublesome conditionals here may be strictly true, they may also be inappropriate to utter in the indicted situation: in the butler case that it is inappropriate to assert a weaker sentence

(~p v q, p -> q) when we can assert a stronger one that implies it (~p, q). That is the examples seem wrong only because they are inappropriate, not because they are false. If we allow truth-value gaps, the situation becomes somewhat tidier still, since a material conditional in that case is simply valueless when its antecedent is false. Or we can say that we just don’t care what the value is then and ignore embarrassing cases where the antecedent is false.

The second possibility is to take indicative conditionals as what some theory of subjunctive conditionals that you think is wrong thinks are subjunctive conditionals. The favorite for this is C2 with the near world selection involving the shared presuppositions that have been built up in the conversation up to the point where the conditional is uttered, which are not involved in establishing the n3ear worlds for the subjunctive case. The other possibility is CV, which is arrived at first by dealing only with probabilities: pr(p>q) = pr(p & q)/pr(p), the conditional probability of q on p. `p>q’ is true just in case pr(q/p) than some set value (the acceptability level again – something like this can be worked out for fuzzy logics as well, of course – which value shifts with the situation). When this is transferred to validity (true in all models/worlds), the system turns out to be CV, which has nothing overtly to say about probabilities.

None of these systems works for all cases and none of them really says much about deciding in a given case whether the conditional is true. Happily, we are doing language building not logic here and so all we need come up with are ways of expressing the various conditionals in Lojban. I would like to suggest the following.

For indicative conditionals, we should go with the otherwise fairly useless material conditional so built into the language. We obviously take it in the “don’t really give a damn when the antecedent is false” sense and also accept the pragmatic restrictions on what can be uttered (appropriately).

For the “might if” conditional we should accept the identification that is general in logic.

For the “even if” conditional we should take the basic “p even if q” to be `(q>p)’ when p is thought to be true and (assuming ~q is thought more likely that q) `(~q>p) & (q>p)’ otherwise.

Which all assumes we something for subjunctive conditionals. For that I suggest that usage has already suggested {da’i} for the antecedent. As a UI, {da’i} can go anywhere, but usage suggests either sentence initial (or just before a guhek for compound sentences) or in the tense location, after the first argument and before the selbri. This is actually a stronger move than merely subjunctive conditional, for {da’i} can be taken as setting up a hypothetical world which them persists until explicitly dropped with {da’inai}. The conditional is a special case with only one sentence in the scope of the {da’i} (or longer discussions are elaborated conditionals with long conjunctions of claims as consequents). This may make it difficult to express some of the theses of conditional logic, but these are mainly to be used, not stated. We will find ways to say them when we need them. We do need to work out how to interpret new {da’i}s within the scope of existing ones, although this seems pretty obvious – they become in effect either a conjunction under a single {da’i} or more literally go off to a world alternate to the alternate world already reached. What the consequences of either way of doing this are is not immediately clear (and probably depends upon which conditional logic we use – they were bound to come in somewhere).

Advantages: have a uniform way of saying things we have been having trouble saying for 50 years. Disadvantage: we will have to clean up all those earlier attempts (but people did more cursing than creating in this area, so there may not be much).

(All of this material is shamelessly cribbed from Donald Nute, “Conditional Logic” pp 387 - 439 of Volume II of The Handbook of Philosophical Logic (first edition, as it now is), Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1984. This paper has a good beginning bibliography if you want to chase this topic down.)