jbocre: Scientific American article: Difference between revisions

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#REDIRECT [[scientific American article]]
'  a'''h'''a, '''H'''aar
 
a  G'''a'''l'''a'''
 
e  b'''e'''sser
 
i  K'''i'''w'''i'''
 
o  s'''o'''
 
u  d'''u'''
 
y  b'''e'''zahlen, Minut'''e'''
 
ai  M'''ai'''
 
au  '''Au'''to
 
ei  h'''ey'''
 
oi  tr'''�u'''men
 
ia  '''ja'''
 
ie  '''j�'''mmerlich, '''je'''tzt, '''J�'''nner (Austrian)
 
ii  '''ji'''ddisch
 
io  '''Jo'''ghurt
 
iu  '''Ju'''wel
 
ua  Q'''ua'''lit�t, Q'''ua'''l
 
ue  Q'''ue'''lle
 
ui  Q'''ui'''tte, q'''uie'''ken
 
uo  Q'''uo'''te
 
uu  -
 
''Beware; some (many?) people pronounce qu- as [[jbocre: kf|kf]] or [[jbocre: kv|kv]] rather than [[jbocre: k_w|k_w]] or [[jbocre: kw|kw]]. --[[jbocre: pne|pne]]''
 
*This is dialectal and at least not standard German! Shall we drop these sounds for this reason???
**Reference, please. [http://www.duden.de/schreibung/regelwerk/laut_07.html uden] claims that [[jbocre: kv|kv]] is normative for {qu} (at least, that's the way I read the page).
 
b  '''B'''aum
 
c  '''Sch'''ere
 
d  '''D'''ach
 
f  '''F'''enster
 
g  '''G'''itter
 
j  '''G'''enie, '''J'''ournal, Massa'''g'''e
 
k  '''K'''eller
 
l  '''L'''ampe
 
m  '''M'''ann
 
n  '''N'''ase
 
p  '''P'''lan
 
r  '''R'''ache
 
s  Me'''ss'''er
 
t  '''T'''ee
 
v  '''W'''asser
 
x  a'''ch'''t
 
z  Ro'''s'''e, '''S'''onne
 
------
 
Is German [[jbocre: r|r]] acceptable for Lojban {r}? To [[jbocre: pn|ne]], German [[jbocre: r|r]] is a voiced version of Lojban {x} (a voiced velar fricative).
 
*[[jbocre: .greg.|greg.]] always thought of german [[jbocre: r|r]] as being a trilled velar rhotic (or whatever the phonetic parlance is) ; the french [[jbocre: r|r]] is what I would call a voiced velar fricative. I think it '''is''' acceptable although many germans can probably trill their r's (the swissgermans and some austrians do anyhow). The problem comes in such combinations as {xrani}, where people who are used to hearing a trilled [[jbocre: r|r]] or an English/American [[jbocre: r|r]] will have trouble deciding what sound is which.
**[[jbocre: pne|pne]]'ve heard the French [[jbocre: r|r]] described as a voiced ''uvular'' fricative, but that's nearly the same thing (only one point of articulation further back).
 
**Having looked at the Duden page for information about {qu}, [[jbocre: pne|pne]] see that [[jbocre: r|r]], [[jbocre: R\|R\]] and [[jbocre: R|R]] (X-SAMPA: alveolar trill, uvular trill, voiced uvular fricative) are all listed as realisations of /r/. So the voiced velar fricative isn't listed, but my /r/ sounds more velar to me than uvular. Whatever.Nick's [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/Play/LojbanIPA.pdf ojban IPA document] lists various trills and approximants as OK for Lojban {r}, but no fricatives -- but since [[jbocre: r|r]] and [[jbocre: R\|R\]] are realisations of /r/ in German according to Duden, [[jbocre: pne|pne]] guess using German {r} as an example is OK, even if that's not my native (North German) realisation.
*[[jbocre: .aulun.|.aulun.]] herewith solemnly raise protest against dropping the entry /r/ in German! If not speaking French, Yiddish or Hebrew, i always have been trilling my r's. This is common in many parts of southern Germany, middle and northern Germany - so-called "waterkant" area, Austria and German speaking Switzerland. Remember that great German speaking actors (theatre/theater of course: Gustaf Gr�ndgens, Therese Giehse etc. etc.) trilled the r-liquid. BTW, also bear in mind that there are pretty different r-liquids in the German language, according to '''where''' in a word it is articulated (which, BTW,  is similar with /ch/: 'ich', 'echt', 'acht', 'Rache').
 
''Only now that I realized that this discussion is totally unnecessary, given that Lojban actually allows any kind of 'r' (American, German, Italian and what have you). I dared to make an 'r' entry above (''''R'''ache') - and without hints on different German pronunciations. --[[jbocre: .|.aulun.]]''

Latest revision as of 16:54, 5 July 2014

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