View source for Talk:poi'i

==Discussion==
* John Cowan:
** Can you provide a concrete example of such an abstraction, and an x1 that would make it true? I don't understand this.
*** And Rosta:
**** It's a utility.
**** 1. It allows de facto prenexes without need for goi:
***** '''mi viska la djan = la djan goi ko'a zo'u mi viska ko'a = la djan poi'i mi viska ke'a'''
**** 2. It allows for reflexives:
***** '''mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a'''  = ''I see myself.''
***** '''mi poi'i ke'a jinvi tu'o du'u ke'a melbi''' = ''I believe myself to be beautiful.''
**** 3. It allows sumti tail formation in cases that can otherwise be difficult to handle:
***** '''le poi'i la djan jinvi tu'o du'u ke'a melbi''' = ''certain ones who John believes to be beautiful''
***** '''le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a''' = ''certain ones who see themselves''
**** The basic idea is a NOI converted into a NU.
*[[.djorden.|.djorden.]]:
*:I had trouble understanding at first because I missed that its selma'o is NU and not NOI.  Maybe it should use a different cmavo than '''ke'a''' so you don't confuse those used to '''poi'''?  (zo ke'ai zo'o)
*:(For the record I don't like or advocate this cmavo)
*[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
*: Such ambiguities already arise with NOI within NOI, and the official solution to that problem, viz '''xi'''-subscripting, could be used here, without having to create yet another cmavo. Indeed, when '''ce'u''' was created I was opposed to it, advocating the use of '''ke'a''' instead, and I hold to that view still.
**[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
**:I agree that '''ke'a'''/'''ce'u''' are essentially the same thing. I used '''ke'u''' with '''ka''' before '''ce'u''' was created. I like the flexibility that '''poi'i''' affords, but I prefer '''seka''' for that meaning.
***pc:
***:Ummh, can someone explain to me what similarities there  are between '''ke'a''', a restricted anaphora, and '''ce'u''' a bound variable in abstractions?
****One way to see the similarity is to replace '''poi''' with '''pe sekai le ka''' (or '''noi''' with '''ne sekai le ka'''), so for example '''le broda poi ke'a brode''' is '''le broda pe sekai le ka ce'u brode'''. In both cases, relative-clause = NOI subsentence /KUhO/, tanru-unit = NU subsentence /KEI/, the respective KOhA keeps a slot in the subsentence open. One important difference is that multiple uses of '''ke'a''' collapse to a single slot, while multiple uses of '''ce'u''' correspond to different slots.
**** Ahah! When spun out in certain contexts they give the same resultant claim, not that they are conceptually at all similar.  Sorta like '''ka''' and '''du'u''', without the grammatical similarities.
**[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]:
**: I agree. I think I must have proposed '''poi'i''' because '''ka''' has no x2 (and IMO nor should it). But that leaves '''se ka''' meaningless, and a reasonable interpretation it to take '''se ka''' as forcing a predicate that is is a verion of '''ka''' with an x2. Okay, then - see [[SE + x2-less brivla]].
*[[MartinBays|.maten.]]:
*:Is there any circumstance in which '''poi'i''' can't be replaced by '''du DA poi''' (or '''du lo du poi'''), being only one or two syllables longer and non-experimental?
{{mu|mi du da poi ke'a viska ke'a|I am one who sees themself.}}
{{mu|le du be da poi ke'a viska ke'a|Certain ones which equal something which sees itself.}}
**[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
*** Yes, '''poi'i''' is approximately '''du (be) da poi''', therefrom its form, but it doesn't use up a variable. Many cmavo can be paraphrased in terms of other cmavo, but it is still convenient to have the compact forms. In your example, a difference would appear if you were to write the sumti after the selbri: Compare '''poi'i ke'a broda kei fa ro de''' with '''du su'o da poi ke'a broda ku'o fa ro de'''. In the second case, '''ro de''' is within the scope of '''su'o da'''. ('''poi'i''' is probably fully equivalent to '''du (be) tu'o da poi'''.)
*[[User:mudri|mudri]]:
** Isn't this just [[new voi]]? I guess '''poi'i''' is better for backwards compatibility.
*** [[la gleki]]:
**** This is in fact the original cmavo. '''voi''' instead of '''poi'i''' was proposed much later.