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null quantification

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If we think of 'sets' as groups instead (collectivities, = Lojban 'masses'), then we can just refer directly to the set/group without quantifiying over its membership. Regarding your analysis of '''tu'o''' and '''lo'ei''', I don't get it. '''lo'ei''' always seems to reduce to '''lo''' with a narrow scope within that of some implicit predicate. In other words, I think I have a rough idea of how '''lo'ei''' works, but I can't make sense of your and xorxes's analysis of its working. Maybe this discussion should move to the [[lo'ei]] page, if you're arguing that '''tu'o''' is equivalent to '''lo'ei'''. --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
* Mathematical sets cannot be used directly, and mathematical sets are what '''lo'i''' does. Also, in Lojban you cannot just use groups/collectivities/masses directly without quantification. For individual gadri ('''lo/le/la''') you must pick out (quantify over) individuals from that group. For mass gadri (''loi/lei/lai'') you must pick out (quantify over) parts of that mass. xorxes's rewrite of '''broda lo'ei brode''' to '''kairbroda le ka ce'u du lo brode''' was an intermediate step, I think, in the ultimate goal of getting to '''kairbroda le ka ce'u brode'''. As xorxes says, if you don't understand that, take '''sisku''', which is a primitive in standard Lojban: '''mi sisku le ka ce'u tanxe''' (='''mi buska lo'ei/tu'o tanxe''') doesn't involve any quantification over '''lo'i tanxe''', it merely uses the meaning of tanxe as expressed in the property '''le ka ce'u tanxe''', and adds it to the predicate '''sisku'''. --[[Adam]]
I don't mean that '''lo'i broda''' is a group rather than a mathematical set. I mean that if we conceive of categories as <u>groups</u> of individuals, then we can either quantify over the membership, or refer to the group directly. (This is how '''lei/loi''' ought to work.) Regarding '''sisku''', as I've been saying in the discussions on Jboske, I don't understand '''sisku tu'o ka ce'u broda''' except as a way of expressing '''troci tu'o du'u co'e lo broda''', so for me the analogy with sisku does not help at all in explicating the notion of null quantification. I understand that '''lo'ei''' is supposed to "use the meaning of tanxe as expressed in the property '''le ka ce'u tanxe''', and adds it to the predicate '''sisku'''", but I can't make sense of this. We haven't found any examples from English that don't reduce to '''lo''' (or '''loi'e'''). --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
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