zo'e broda gi'e brode: Difference between revisions

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{{jbocre/en}}
'''zo'e broda gi'e brode''' expands to '''zo'e broda .i zo'e brode'''. It's the same without explicit '''zo'e''': '''broda gi'e brode''' expands to '''broda .ije brode'''. Well, except that in this case it's not an expansion, exactly.


||On Death|
[[jbocre: The Book|The Book]] authoritatively states that the initial '''zo'e''' places need not have the same value. See chapter 14, section 9, examples 9.9 to 9.11. And that makes sense; it simplifies the transformation rule. (The book gives a more complicated argument that doesn't fully make sense to me, but so what?)


Then Almitra spoke, saying, "We would ask now of Death."|
However, a little Grice told me that people will tend not to choose the longer word '''gi'e''' over the shorter word '''.i''' without cause. For [[jbocre: Gricean|Gricean]] reasons, someone who's gone to the trouble to say '''broda gi'e brode''' probably means to suggest, unless there's context to otherwise [[jbocre: glork|glork]], that the unexpressed x1 places are the same.


And he said:|
*[[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax]]:
 
*:Unless you have another idea about what they might be meaning to suggest?
You would know the secret of death.|
**But if someone did want to observe that something does '''broda''' and '''brode''', they might more likely say '''broda je brode'''.
 
***[[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]:
But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life?|
***:Which is still shorter. Basically, this means that for [[jbocre: Gricean|Gricean]] reasons nobody will say '''broda gi'e brode''', and so you are arguing not over the literal meaning of the utterance but ''why someone would say something that it is unlikely that they would say''. However, discussing '''gi'e''' brings up a question I have - does '''ko broda gi'e brode''' expand to '''ko broda .i brode''' or '''ko broda .i ko brode'''?
 
****[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light.|
****:'''broda ko'a ko'e gi'e brode ko'i ko'o''' might be preferred over '''broda be ko'a bei ko'e je brode be ko'i bei ko'o''' (assuming '''broda gi'e brode''' really is equivalent to '''broda je brode'''). '''ko broda gi'e brode''' expands to '''ko broda ije ko brode'''. Strictly speaking there is no short form for the bare '''i''' connection
 
*****I thought so. But wouldn't that mean that in Lobster Quadrille, the sentence '''.i ko ti'a zgana .ua pa xajyfi'e noi jbitrixe gi'e me mi rebla stapa''' commands the listener to step on the speaker's tail - not quite the intent of the original.
If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life.|
******[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]:
 
******:That's '''noi (jbitrixe gi'e me mi rebla stapa)'''. You're reading a terminator after '''jbitrixe''' that is not there.
For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one.|
 
In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond;|
 
And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring.|
 
Trust the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity.|
 
Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour.|
 
Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king?|
 
Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling?|
 
For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun?|
 
And what is to cease breathing, but to free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered?|
 
Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing.|
 
And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb.|
 
And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.| ||
 
||[[jbocre: T|The Prophet]] |le prije ctuca / le pijyctu (the wise teacher)
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: The Coming of the Ship]] |.i nu selklama le bloti
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Love]] |lo ka prami
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Marriage]] |lo nu speni
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Children]] |lo  panzi
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Giving]] |lo nu dunda
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Eating and Drinking]] |lo nu citka je pinxe
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Work]] |lo zu'o gunka
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Joy and Sorrow]] |lo li'i gleki je badri
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Houses]] |lo zdani
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Clothes]] |lo taxfu
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Buying and Selling]] |lo nu tevecnu je vecnu
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Crime and Punishment]] |lo zekri .e lo nu sfasa
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Laws]] |lo flalu
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Freedom]] |lo za'i zifre
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Reason and Passion]] | lo nu krinu pensi .e lo se cinmo
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Pain]] | lo nu dunku
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Self-Knowledge]] | lo nu sevzi djuno
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Teaching]] | lo nu ctuca
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Friendship]] | lo nu pendo
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Talking]] | lo nu tavla
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Time]] | lo temci
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Good and Evil]] | lo ka vrude .e lo ka pacna
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Prayer]] | lo nu jdaselsku
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Pleasure]] | lo za'i pluka
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Beauty]] | lo ka melbi
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Religion]] | lo lijde
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: On Death]] | lo nu morsi
 
[[jbocre: The Prophet: The Farewell]] | le nu cusku zo co'o||

Revision as of 06:56, 26 December 2013

zo'e broda gi'e brode expands to zo'e broda .i zo'e brode. It's the same without explicit zo'e: broda gi'e brode expands to broda .ije brode. Well, except that in this case it's not an expansion, exactly.

The Book authoritatively states that the initial zo'e places need not have the same value. See chapter 14, section 9, examples 9.9 to 9.11. And that makes sense; it simplifies the transformation rule. (The book gives a more complicated argument that doesn't fully make sense to me, but so what?)

However, a little Grice told me that people will tend not to choose the longer word gi'e over the shorter word .i without cause. For Gricean reasons, someone who's gone to the trouble to say broda gi'e brode probably means to suggest, unless there's context to otherwise glork, that the unexpressed x1 places are the same.

  • jezrax:
    Unless you have another idea about what they might be meaning to suggest?
    • But if someone did want to observe that something does broda and brode, they might more likely say broda je brode.
      • .kreig.daniyl.:
        Which is still shorter. Basically, this means that for Gricean reasons nobody will say broda gi'e brode, and so you are arguing not over the literal meaning of the utterance but why someone would say something that it is unlikely that they would say. However, discussing gi'e brings up a question I have - does ko broda gi'e brode expand to ko broda .i brode or ko broda .i ko brode?
        • xorxes:
          broda ko'a ko'e gi'e brode ko'i ko'o might be preferred over broda be ko'a bei ko'e je brode be ko'i bei ko'o (assuming broda gi'e brode really is equivalent to broda je brode). ko broda gi'e brode expands to ko broda ije ko brode. Strictly speaking there is no short form for the bare i connection
          • I thought so. But wouldn't that mean that in Lobster Quadrille, the sentence .i ko ti'a zgana .ua pa xajyfi'e noi jbitrixe gi'e me mi rebla stapa commands the listener to step on the speaker's tail - not quite the intent of the original.
            • xorxes:
              That's noi (jbitrixe gi'e me mi rebla stapa). You're reading a terminator after jbitrixe that is not there.