using Undefined Gismu as Names

[09:07] <tomoj> why shouldn't morphological gismu that aren't actually gismu be acceptable names?

[09:07] <vensa> who said they shouldnt?

[09:08] <tomoj> like {la tomjo}

[09:08] <vensa> tomoj: who said you cant?

[09:08] <vensa> I'm all for it

[09:08] <tomoj> uhh

[09:08] <tomoj> it is not orthodox

[09:08] <vensa> tomoj: says who?

[09:08] <vensa> maybe nobody thought of it yet

[09:08] <vensa> I like it

[09:08] <lindar> People have.

[09:09] <lindar> What if that name ends up getting used?

[09:09] <tomoj> then you wind up with a probably interesting description-based name

[09:09] <vensa> yep

[09:10] <selckiku> i'll say it, i don't think that's a sensible thing to do

[09:10] <selckiku> it slightly confuses me and it's new, so i'm opposed to it

[09:10] <tomoj> me neither, now that I think about it

[09:10] <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination

[09:10] <vensa> selckiku: you opposed to new things in general?

[09:10] <tomoj> the grammar says you can stick a selbri after LA

[09:10] <vensa> or just things that confuse you ? :P

[09:10] <lindar> Like what if Broca actually uses {la broca}, and then in a year suddenly we start a gismu {broca} that means "x1 is a puss/wimp that can't do x2 and licks giant sweaty balls x3 while being sodomised in orifice x4 by big sloppy dong x5.".

[09:10] <tomoj> if *{tomjo} counts as a selbri, then I should be able to use it outside of names too

[09:11] <vensa> tomoj: you CAN

[09:11] <vensa> it just want make SEMANTIC sense

[09:11] <vensa> .u'i lindar

[09:11] <lindar> Then suddenly he's named "the pussy that can't do shit and licks giant sweaty balls while being sodomised by a big sloppy dong.".

[09:11] <lindar> That's my only issue, really.

[09:11] <selckiku> i'm not really opposed to new things, i was kidding or something

[09:12] <selckiku> but honestly that doesn't make much sense to me... description names are lojban words, not just random lojbanny shaped thingies

[09:12] <vensa> lindar: <vensa> just like what if your name ends up being a meaningful rafsi combination

[09:12] <lindar> Sure, something like that.

[09:12] <vensa> lindar: so it can happen to cmelva too

[09:12] * lindar is actually named Lindar, and finds the coincidence hilarious.

[09:12] <vensa> valsi affix: lin

[09:12] <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+lin

[09:12] <vensa> valsi affix: dar

[09:12] <valsi> no results. http://vlasisku.lojban.org/affix%3A+dar

[09:12] <selckiku> half of my name "mungodjelis" was jvocme so i made that lujvo, djelisri

[09:12] <tomoj> it can't happen to cmevla

[09:13] <vensa> valsi affix:dar

[09:13] <valsi> linsi = x1 is a length of chain/links of material x2 with link properties x3.

[09:13] <valsi> darno = x1 is far/distant from x2 in property x3 (ka).

[09:13] <vensa> "chain far"!

[09:13] <vensa> heh

[09:13] <selckiku> lindar, how'd u get a name like "Lindar" anyway? where's that from?

[09:13] <lindar> Lord of the Rings. >_>

[09:13] * lindar tells non-geeks it's welsh.

[09:13] <tomoj> if it's a cmevla, any meaning you associate to it as a rafsi chain is not fixed by the language

[09:13] * ctino thinks that is far too awesome.

[09:13] <vensa> tomoj: y not. just showed you

[09:14] <selckiku> jvocme are a tradition, though... they're not really quite meaningless

[09:14] * kucli is a friend of elves

[09:14] <tomoj> the language doesn't say that cmevla that look like rafsi components have anything to do with the meanings of the valsi for those rafsi

[09:14] <selckiku> it's not meaningless that camgusmis is named "camgusmis", i think about bright lights and fame every time i say it

[09:14] <tomoj> right

[09:14] <tomoj> it's only by suggestion

[09:14] <vensa> tomoj: I recall seeing that it does

[09:14] <tomoj> you can tell that their name looks like a rafsi chain and know that they did this on purpose

[09:14] <tomoj> but really the language is mute on the subject

[09:15] <vensa> perhaps

[09:15] <vensa> but it is a PLAUSIBLE option

[09:15] <selckiku> i tried to get everyone to call them "jvosmicmevla" but people are saying "jvocme" instead b/c they don't like clajvo, o well

[09:15] <vensa> so would it only be PLAUSIBLE that {broca} chose his name according to the gismu of "pussy"

[09:15] <Twey> o.@

[09:16] <selckiku> it doesn't have denotative meaning, but it has some connotative meaning

[09:16] <tomoj> yeah

[09:16] <vensa> whatever that means

[09:16] <lindar> We're discussing two different things here.

[09:17] <vensa> I'm putting this in the discussions section later :)

[09:17] <lindar> I was saying that if somebody names themselves $namethatisanundefinedgismu and then we define that gismu... then what?

[09:17] <vensa> selckiku: yes, but with english font

[09:17] <vensa> lindar: what difference is that from {lindar} that happens to be a rafsi chain?

[09:17] <tomoj> then there name acquires a selbri meaning, so what?

[09:17] <vensa> maybe its on purpose, maybe not

[09:17] <@Broca> If someone calls themselves $namethatisundefinedgismu _in Lojban_, they're doing it wrong.

[09:17] <tomoj> er, their

[09:17] <selckiku> it's so multilingual in here! next thing you know we'll actually be culturally neutral

[09:17] <lindar> vensa: Because THOSE names have incidental meaning.

[09:17] <tomoj> Broca: say {tomjo}

[09:18] <vensa> lindar: IMO a gismu name can be incidental as wel

[09:18] <vensa> as long as it's "la selbri"

[09:18] <lindar> If I name myself {donri} then I'm not going to be an asshole and say, "No, I'm not called 'Day', it's just 'donri' the letters.".

[09:18] <vensa> maybe I call myself {la ganxo} because I like the sound of it :)

[09:18] <lindar> Yeah, no.

[09:18] <lindar> Please adhere to a policy of non-gluteality.

[09:19] <tomoj> wait, yeah or no?

[09:19] <vensa> lindar: some people call their children English names, based solely on the sound, without even knowing the def sometimes

[09:19] <lindar> If my name was "Shite", it means "Shite".

[09:19] <vensa> ctino: he ivrit shelcha metzuyenet

[09:19] <ctino> selckiku: it's nice isn't it? lojban actually has more people from different cultures than I realized.

[09:20] <selckiku> someday there'll be thousands of jbopre, and all of the gismu will have been someone's name sometime

[09:20] <vensa> tomoj: I suspect the Yeah was cinical (lindarP) :)

[09:20] <lindar> If my name is "Rose", then it's fucking "Rose". If my name is "Blue" then my name is "Blue". If your name is {xalbo} then your name is actually {xalbo}. Do you see what I'm saying?

[09:20] <vensa> lindar: no

[09:20] <lindar> Words have definitions, regardless of whether or not they're also names.

[09:20] <selckiku> i think a lot about why la xalbo chose "xalbo" and what it means to him

[09:20] <lindar> You don't get to detach the meaning just because you like the -sound- of the name.

[09:20] <vensa> lindar: yes

[09:20] <selckiku> it's a very interesting choice of name

[09:20] <ctino> vensa: todah, haha.

[09:21] <lindar> Stop saying no and yes. There's no scale set. It's not a yes or no question.

[09:21] <vensa> lindar: but that doesnt mean the definition was intended by the name chooser. agreed?

[09:21] <lindar> >_> In this case, yes it fucking does.

[09:21] <vensa> what is "this case"?!

[09:22] <lindar> Ignore all of the old names like "john" and "mary" and shit that have a meaning but not in English. If you name your kid "Crystal", the kid's name is fucking "Crystal".

[09:22] <lindar> It's a word in English with a meaning.

[09:22] <vensa> lindar: someone can call their child "auburn" without knowing it's a color

[09:22] <vensa> yes it has a meaning

[09:22] <lindar> FUCK those people. They shouldn't be allowed to breed.

[09:22] <vensa> but some word's meaning are less clear

[09:22] <vensa> .u'isai

[09:22] <lindar> Bro, Lojban here.

[09:23] <lindar> The words are very clear.

[09:23] <vensa> all I'm saying is that meaning is not always transparent

[09:23] <selckiku> i remember when there was hardly anyone named a gismu

[09:23] <vensa> just like you can have nicknames who's original name isnt clear

[09:23] <lindar> Dude, your name in English is "Springtime".

[09:23] <selckiku> i used to wonder "why don't people choose gismu names? all the gismu are available!"

[09:23] <lindar> Guess what it means?

[09:23] <vensa> e.g.: larry is short for lawrence. did you know that?

[09:23] <lindar> Yes.

[09:23] <ksion> coi la kucli

[09:23] <ctino> The only reason I use a gismu name is because my alias is Amber Shadow and I didn't want to lojbanize it :3

[09:23] <ksion> coi rodo .enai la lindar no'u se fanza u'i

[09:24] <selckiku> "kucli" is a nice gi'ucme

[09:24] <selckiku> i've always loved the word "kucli"

[09:24] <tomoj> so some names have associated meanings

[09:24] <lindar> In Lojban, {selckiku} ACTUALLY means means "lock".

[09:24] <tomoj> why does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to use names with no associated meaning?

[09:24] <vensa> lindar: are you disagreeing with me when it comes to lojban only? or in english as well?

[09:24] <tomoj> cmevla are just that way

[09:24] <selckiku> as does "stela", so my name is Lock Lock :D

[09:24] <tomoj> why not also selbri-shaped names?

[09:24] <vensa> yes! tomoj +1

[09:25] <lindar> >_>

[09:25] <ctino> selckiku: I figured that out today xD

[09:25] <selckiku> there's no meaning associated with "clsn".. that's a neat shape for a name

[09:25] <lindar> The FACT of the matter is that it is DEFINED as "The one named...".

[09:25] <tomoj> also, jabberwocky

[09:25] <tomoj> a lojban translation of jabberwocky should use morphological selbri that aren't actual selbri

[09:25] <lindar> So {la xalbo} is unambiguously DEFINED as "The one named 'levitous-thing'.". That's what it means.

[09:26] <tomoj> perhaps some morphological cmavo and fu'ivla too?

[09:26] <lindar> You don't get to say, "Ah, no, I don't feel like doing that. I want my name to be a gismu, but I'm special, so it doesn't actually mean that for me.".

[09:26] <vensa> lindar: all im saying is that it doesnt neccessarily mean that {la xalbo} is aware of the meaning of his name, or wether he chose it BECAUSE of its meaning

[09:26] <tomoj> sure you do

[09:26] <lindar> la donri is "The one named 'Day'.".

[09:26] <vensa> of course he did in this case

[09:26] <tomoj> we get to pick our own names

[09:26] <vensa> but it doesnt have to be

[09:26] <lindar> >_>

[09:26] <selckiku> the translation of jabberwocky we have is by xorxes right?

[09:26] <lindar> YES IT DOES

[09:26] <tomoj> if I want to be named 'fatass', why can't I be?

[09:27] <lindar> THAT'S HOW IT'S FUCKING WRITTEN IN THE BOOK THAT TELLS US HOW TO SPEAK LOJBAN

[09:27] <lindar> IT -DOES- HAVE TO BE

[09:27] <vensa> lindar: where?!

[09:27] <tomoj> jeebus

[09:27] <selckiku> WHY ARE WE YELLING

[09:27] <tomoj> take a chill pill

[09:27] <ctino> BECAUSE YELLING IS FUN

[09:27] <vensa> lindar: the book doesnt tell us what to THINK

[09:27] <ctino> u'i

[09:27] <tomoj> there's some candy like tic-tacs called "chill", lol

[09:28] <ctino> I love tic-tacs.

[09:28] <vensa> seems like any discussion involving me and lindar can never come to an end :)

[09:28] <ctino> Haha.

[09:28] <vensa> or is it just lindar and anybody? :P

[09:29] <vensa> or me and anybody?

[09:29] <ctino> Lindar and anybody.

[09:29] <tomoj> unstoppable force + immovable object

[09:29] <Twey> ctino: What do you think of that lindar and vensa, eh, eh?

[09:29] <vensa> I'm pretty stubborn myself :)

[09:29] <vensa> tomoj u'isai

[09:29] <ctino> Twey: Entertaining.

[09:29] <vensa> :)

[09:30] <vensa> lindar is quite so I suspect he actually went to the books

[09:30] <vensa> *quiet

[09:30] <ctino> Probably.

[09:30] <ctino> I know I would have.

[09:30] <vensa> when he comes back, all hell will break out

[09:30] <ctino> Haha.

[09:30] <ctino> The quiet before the storm.

[09:30] <vensa> what happens if I leave before he comes back? :P

[09:30] <ctino> >_>

[09:30] <vensa> .y

[09:31] <vensa> shhhhh... "i'm not here..."

[09:31] <ctino> So what's the synopsis of this debate?

[09:31] <vensa> we'll have to wait for lindar to return for that

[09:31] <ksion> vensa: That's mostly because is mutce certu loka fanza ;)

[09:31] <vensa> it's not over till the british elf screams

[09:32] <ksion> vensa: lindar is*

[09:32] <ctino> xD

[09:32] <tomoj> wat

[09:32] <vensa> ksion: :)

[09:33] == zugz [[email protected]] has joined #lojban

[09:33] <lindar> What's up now?

[09:33] <ctino> I wanna know what the synopsis of your debate is.

[09:33] <lindar> btw: Not to be picky/whiney or anything, but I would appreciate the favour of you referring to be as a spivvak. =/

[09:33] <lindar> *to me as

[09:35] <lindar> Short version: If you have a brivla name, you picked it. It always has the meaning. You can't divorce a gismu from the meaning just because it's a name. That's like naming a kid "Hope" and then saying, "It's a really cool name, but I never looked it up to find out what it means.".

[09:36] <ctino> Hm. Okay, thanks.

[09:36] <tomoj> certainly that's conceivable