https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&feed=atom&action=historythe Lojban Dictionary - Revision history2024-03-29T07:28:53ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=100386&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page The Lojban Dictionary to the Lojban Dictionary: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:36:11Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/The_Lojban_Dictionary" class="mw-redirect" title="The Lojban Dictionary">The Lojban Dictionary</a> to <a href="/papri/the_Lojban_Dictionary" title="the Lojban Dictionary">the Lojban Dictionary</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=92804&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""2014-03-23T16:20:58Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: " to ""</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:20, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I consider myself computer-literate, but I still do not even understand the idea of an elephant, and am unlikely to read it until I have some idea what it is. Elephant has only been described in terms that make it seem like you must not only be computer-''literate'' but also well-read. Perhaps someone could clarify the [[elephant|elephant]] page? - mi'e. [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] (PS: will the elephant be from Betelgeuse?)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I consider myself computer-literate, but I still do not even understand the idea of an elephant, and am unlikely to read it until I have some idea what it is. Elephant has only been described in terms that make it seem like you must not only be computer-''literate'' but also well-read. Perhaps someone could clarify the [[elephant|elephant]] page? - mi'e. [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] (PS: will the elephant be from Betelgeuse?)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The non-flame response is, wait and see. I had a huge flame response here, instead of which, I respectfully suggest you reread the top half of the page, whch is quite clear (a forum like the wiki, but with strict tree-like structure); and if you object to people using words like Ankh and Ankus in the bottom half of the page, which is clearly delimited as a digression, kindly keep it to yourself. You know what they say about not being part of the solution... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The non-flame response is, wait and see. I had a huge flame response here, instead of which, I respectfully suggest you reread the top half of the page, whch is quite clear (a forum like the wiki, but with strict tree-like structure); and if you object to people using words like Ankh and Ankus in the bottom half of the page, which is clearly delimited as a digression, kindly keep it to yourself. You know what they say about not being part of the solution... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=91627&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:57:25Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:57, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If Elephant is good, it's good at providing a structure for these debates. It's not a dictionary database, and it shouldn't be; that's asking too much of one app. So it should probably be its own structure (which Jay is building?) with links to appropriate Elephant discussions. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If Elephant is good, it's good at providing a structure for these debates. It's not a dictionary database, and it shouldn't be; that's asking too much of one app. So it should probably be its own structure (which Jay is building?) with links to appropriate Elephant discussions. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Indeed. Look at [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>jbovlaste|jbovlaste]] before you say that [[Elephant|Elephant]] is the only way to do it. My current pause in jbovlaste development is to take into consideration the recent growth in Wiki usage, and now to also consider how Elephant might interoperate. It looks as though I might simply provide a mechanism for jbovlaste to point to an [[Elephant|Elephant]] argument or arguments which are relevent to the word in discussion. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Indeed. Look at [[jbovlaste|jbovlaste]] before you say that [[Elephant|Elephant]] is the only way to do it. My current pause in jbovlaste development is to take into consideration the recent growth in Wiki usage, and now to also consider how Elephant might interoperate. It looks as though I might simply provide a mechanism for jbovlaste to point to an [[Elephant|Elephant]] argument or arguments which are relevent to the word in discussion. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>. *shrug* By all means, you and John should be (and presumably are) talking. I still think that cmavo definitions are a rather different kettle of fish than lujvo definitions, but nothing intelligent can be said until both mechanisms are up and running. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>. *shrug* By all means, you and John should be (and presumably are) talking. I still think that cmavo definitions are a rather different kettle of fish than lujvo definitions, but nothing intelligent can be said until both mechanisms are up and running. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=91100&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:54:05Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I [[Nick|Nick]] now believe the right infrastructure for the cmavo section of the dictionary (as opposed to the lujvo section, which will be inherently complex and [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial|Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial]]), is the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Elephant|Elephant]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I [[Nick|Nick]] now believe the right infrastructure for the cmavo section of the dictionary (as opposed to the lujvo section, which will be inherently complex and [[Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial|Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial]]), is the [[Elephant|Elephant]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:I think that the Elephant might serve as a good backstop for the debates that may be necessary to solidify definitions of some cmavo. I do not believe that most cmavo will need to be Elephanted, if people come up with usage examples which do not provoke controversy. Even where it is necessary to use the formal structure of the Elephant to lay out the pros and cons for each choice clearly, I think that there is a way to preserve the reference nature of a dictionary by excerpting only the usages and the definitions accompanying each, with annotations indicating controversy, and which definitions are based on "formal analysis" vs. based on "historical design" or "early usage" (I suspect that most of the controversies can be summed up as competition between each of the above). -- [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:I think that the Elephant might serve as a good backstop for the debates that may be necessary to solidify definitions of some cmavo. I do not believe that most cmavo will need to be Elephanted, if people come up with usage examples which do not provoke controversy. Even where it is necessary to use the formal structure of the Elephant to lay out the pros and cons for each choice clearly, I think that there is a way to preserve the reference nature of a dictionary by excerpting only the usages and the definitions accompanying each, with annotations indicating controversy, and which definitions are based on "formal analysis" vs. based on "historical design" or "early usage" (I suspect that most of the controversies can be summed up as competition between each of the above). -- [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Elephant|Elephant]]ed at large, the Dictionary will take 10 years -- am I really exaggerating? But if done by a Cabal, it will arouse the ire of those outside that Cabal, and take much, much time of those Cabal members so applied, and likely burn them out. [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Elephant|Elephant]] is good inasmuch as it lets users see the conflicted state of opinion and select from the clearest renderings of each opposing view. But upon consideration, a dictionary is not as appropriate as a database that's open to the community, not unlike this Wiki. People can add entries for usages they have seen. It should be descriptive and not prescriptive. And there should be a voting system so people can get a glance of the widespread opinion on usages. And this voting needs positive AND negative votes, so that an issue that's never been voted on has the same voted weight as one with 20 supporters and 20 denouncers. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If [[Elephant|Elephant]]ed at large, the Dictionary will take 10 years -- am I really exaggerating? But if done by a Cabal, it will arouse the ire of those outside that Cabal, and take much, much time of those Cabal members so applied, and likely burn them out. [[Elephant|Elephant]] is good inasmuch as it lets users see the conflicted state of opinion and select from the clearest renderings of each opposing view. But upon consideration, a dictionary is not as appropriate as a database that's open to the community, not unlike this Wiki. People can add entries for usages they have seen. It should be descriptive and not prescriptive. And there should be a voting system so people can get a glance of the widespread opinion on usages. And this voting needs positive AND negative votes, so that an issue that's never been voted on has the same voted weight as one with 20 supporters and 20 denouncers. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:This really does suggest a basic mistrust that there is any Cabal that exists and will act against the wishes of a consensus of the community as it understands that consensus.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:This really does suggest a basic mistrust that there is any Cabal that exists and will act against the wishes of a consensus of the community as it understands that consensus.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l28">Line 28:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If Elephanted, it might take ten years. The rate we're going now, with no Elephant, it'll take till Doomsday. And without Elephant-like structure, no body of knowledge and lore concrete enough to be called a dictionary can emerge. The Wiki certainly can't generate it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If Elephanted, it might take ten years. The rate we're going now, with no Elephant, it'll take till Doomsday. And without Elephant-like structure, no body of knowledge and lore concrete enough to be called a dictionary can emerge. The Wiki certainly can't generate it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:The reason it would take till Doomsday would apply both with and without an Elephant. The Elephant will speed nothing up, and hopefully would slow nothing down except insofar as people enjoying the debate too much might not do as much as they could otherwise in coming up with the examples I've asked for. The real delay in dictionary publication has been a lack of lojbab's time and a lack of money to pay for publication even when it is done. The cmavo have presented a further problem in that most everyone is dissatisfied with the "definitions" that comprise the [[cmavo list|cmavo list]], and no one had any good ideas how to write useful definitions for them ([[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>John Cowan|(John Cowan]] at one point thought the task impossible and favored using the cmavo list as it is for baseline purposes, and I was close to conceding this.). But I think that Nick has shown that problem solvable, provided that we have the examples. Without the examples, there is a considerable risk that the existing cmavo list with all its failing will become the sole baseline standard. --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:The reason it would take till Doomsday would apply both with and without an Elephant. The Elephant will speed nothing up, and hopefully would slow nothing down except insofar as people enjoying the debate too much might not do as much as they could otherwise in coming up with the examples I've asked for. The real delay in dictionary publication has been a lack of lojbab's time and a lack of money to pay for publication even when it is done. The cmavo have presented a further problem in that most everyone is dissatisfied with the "definitions" that comprise the [[cmavo list|cmavo list]], and no one had any good ideas how to write useful definitions for them ([[John Cowan|(John Cowan]] at one point thought the task impossible and favored using the cmavo list as it is for baseline purposes, and I was close to conceding this.). But I think that Nick has shown that problem solvable, provided that we have the examples. Without the examples, there is a considerable risk that the existing cmavo list with all its failing will become the sole baseline standard. --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Elephant can incorporate votes; and the way I at least see it, usage examples would be a database/stock ''independent'' of positions --- so positions can say "Usage 3 is dumb-assed", "Usage 5 is spot on", and so forth. But while it'd be largely open to the community (noone's preventing anyone from posting a position, as long as it's well-formed), it still needs a Clerk to tidy up, wrap up, and generally take editorial responsiblity. Which is ultimately not the same model as the Wiki. (And that's A-OK by me.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Elephant can incorporate votes; and the way I at least see it, usage examples would be a database/stock ''independent'' of positions --- so positions can say "Usage 3 is dumb-assed", "Usage 5 is spot on", and so forth. But while it'd be largely open to the community (noone's preventing anyone from posting a position, as long as it's well-formed), it still needs a Clerk to tidy up, wrap up, and generally take editorial responsiblity. Which is ultimately not the same model as the Wiki. (And that's A-OK by me.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l58">Line 58:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 58:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If Elephant is good, it's good at providing a structure for these debates. It's not a dictionary database, and it shouldn't be; that's asking too much of one app. So it should probably be its own structure (which Jay is building?) with links to appropriate Elephant discussions. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''If Elephant is good, it's good at providing a structure for these debates. It's not a dictionary database, and it shouldn't be; that's asking too much of one app. So it should probably be its own structure (which Jay is building?) with links to appropriate Elephant discussions. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Indeed. Look at [[jbocre: jbovlaste|jbovlaste]] before you say that [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Elephant|Elephant]] is the only way to do it. My current pause in jbovlaste development is to take into consideration the recent growth in Wiki usage, and now to also consider how Elephant might interoperate. It looks as though I might simply provide a mechanism for jbovlaste to point to an [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Elephant|Elephant]] argument or arguments which are relevent to the word in discussion. --[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Indeed. Look at [[jbocre: jbovlaste|jbovlaste]] before you say that [[Elephant|Elephant]] is the only way to do it. My current pause in jbovlaste development is to take into consideration the recent growth in Wiki usage, and now to also consider how Elephant might interoperate. It looks as though I might simply provide a mechanism for jbovlaste to point to an [[Elephant|Elephant]] argument or arguments which are relevent to the word in discussion. --[[Jay Kominek|Jay]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>. *shrug* By all means, you and John should be (and presumably are) talking. I still think that cmavo definitions are a rather different kettle of fish than lujvo definitions, but nothing intelligent can be said until both mechanisms are up and running. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>. *shrug* By all means, you and John should be (and presumably are) talking. I still think that cmavo definitions are a rather different kettle of fish than lujvo definitions, but nothing intelligent can be said until both mechanisms are up and running. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l64">Line 64:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See also [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>See also [[Great Dictionary Problem|Great Dictionary Problem]].</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=90461&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:47:46Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:47, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l2">Line 2:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Nick|Nick]] now believe the right infrastructure for the cmavo section of the dictionary (as opposed to the lujvo section, which will be inherently complex and [[jbocre: Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial|Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial]]), is the [[jbocre: Elephant|Elephant]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>I [[Nick|Nick]] now believe the right infrastructure for the cmavo section of the dictionary (as opposed to the lujvo section, which will be inherently complex and [[jbocre: Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial|Case against a lujvo dictionary ontroversial]]), is the [[jbocre: Elephant|Elephant]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:I think that the Elephant might serve as a good backstop for the debates that may be necessary to solidify definitions of some cmavo. I do not believe that most cmavo will need to be Elephanted, if people come up with usage examples which do not provoke controversy. Even where it is necessary to use the formal structure of the Elephant to lay out the pros and cons for each choice clearly, I think that there is a way to preserve the reference nature of a dictionary by excerpting only the usages and the definitions accompanying each, with annotations indicating controversy, and which definitions are based on "formal analysis" vs. based on "historical design" or "early usage" (I suspect that most of the controversies can be summed up as competition between each of the above). -- [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:I think that the Elephant might serve as a good backstop for the debates that may be necessary to solidify definitions of some cmavo. I do not believe that most cmavo will need to be Elephanted, if people come up with usage examples which do not provoke controversy. Even where it is necessary to use the formal structure of the Elephant to lay out the pros and cons for each choice clearly, I think that there is a way to preserve the reference nature of a dictionary by excerpting only the usages and the definitions accompanying each, with annotations indicating controversy, and which definitions are based on "formal analysis" vs. based on "historical design" or "early usage" (I suspect that most of the controversies can be summed up as competition between each of the above). -- [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=89286&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: The Lojban Dictionary to The Lojban Dictionary without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: T" to "T"2014-03-23T14:36:02Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_The_Lojban_Dictionary&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: The Lojban Dictionary (page does not exist)">jbocre: The Lojban Dictionary</a> to <a href="/papri/The_Lojban_Dictionary" class="mw-redirect" title="The Lojban Dictionary">The Lojban Dictionary</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: T" to "T"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="1" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="1" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:36, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-notice" lang="en"><div class="mw-diff-empty">(No difference)</div>
</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=87923&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T12:10:21Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:10, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l2">Line 2:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[jbocre: Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[jbocre: Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* *sigh* So be it. I am now writing the fa'a definition Elephant-style, But I want to say, unambiguously and exasperatedly, that I object to people objecting to the very authoring of the Dictionary. --- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l28">Line 28:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If Elephanted, it might take ten years. The rate we're going now, with no Elephant, it'll take till Doomsday. And without Elephant-like structure, no body of knowledge and lore concrete enough to be called a dictionary can emerge. The Wiki certainly can't generate it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If Elephanted, it might take ten years. The rate we're going now, with no Elephant, it'll take till Doomsday. And without Elephant-like structure, no body of knowledge and lore concrete enough to be called a dictionary can emerge. The Wiki certainly can't generate it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:The reason it would take till Doomsday would apply both with and without an Elephant. The Elephant will speed nothing up, and hopefully would slow nothing down except insofar as people enjoying the debate too much might not do as much as they could otherwise in coming up with the examples I've asked for. The real delay in dictionary publication has been a lack of lojbab's time and a lack of money to pay for publication even when it is done. The cmavo have presented a further problem in that most everyone is dissatisfied with the "definitions" that comprise the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>cmavo list|cmavo list]], and no one had any good ideas how to write useful definitions for them ([[jbocre: John Cowan|(John Cowan]] at one point thought the task impossible and favored using the cmavo list as it is for baseline purposes, and I was close to conceding this.). But I think that Nick has shown that problem solvable, provided that we have the examples. Without the examples, there is a considerable risk that the existing cmavo list with all its failing will become the sole baseline standard. --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>;:The reason it would take till Doomsday would apply both with and without an Elephant. The Elephant will speed nothing up, and hopefully would slow nothing down except insofar as people enjoying the debate too much might not do as much as they could otherwise in coming up with the examples I've asked for. The real delay in dictionary publication has been a lack of lojbab's time and a lack of money to pay for publication even when it is done. The cmavo have presented a further problem in that most everyone is dissatisfied with the "definitions" that comprise the [[cmavo list|cmavo list]], and no one had any good ideas how to write useful definitions for them ([[jbocre: John Cowan|(John Cowan]] at one point thought the task impossible and favored using the cmavo list as it is for baseline purposes, and I was close to conceding this.). But I think that Nick has shown that problem solvable, provided that we have the examples. Without the examples, there is a considerable risk that the existing cmavo list with all its failing will become the sole baseline standard. --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Elephant can incorporate votes; and the way I at least see it, usage examples would be a database/stock ''independent'' of positions --- so positions can say "Usage 3 is dumb-assed", "Usage 5 is spot on", and so forth. But while it'd be largely open to the community (noone's preventing anyone from posting a position, as long as it's well-formed), it still needs a Clerk to tidy up, wrap up, and generally take editorial responsiblity. Which is ultimately not the same model as the Wiki. (And that's A-OK by me.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Elephant can incorporate votes; and the way I at least see it, usage examples would be a database/stock ''independent'' of positions --- so positions can say "Usage 3 is dumb-assed", "Usage 5 is spot on", and so forth. But while it'd be largely open to the community (noone's preventing anyone from posting a position, as long as it's well-formed), it still needs a Clerk to tidy up, wrap up, and generally take editorial responsiblity. Which is ultimately not the same model as the Wiki. (And that's A-OK by me.)</div></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=87801&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: e" to "e"2014-03-23T12:04:58Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: e" to "e"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:04, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l45">Line 45:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 45:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I consider myself computer-literate, but I still do not even understand the idea of an elephant, and am unlikely to read it until I have some idea what it is. Elephant has only been described in terms that make it seem like you must not only be computer-''literate'' but also well-read. Perhaps someone could clarify the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>elephant|elephant]] page? - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] (PS: will the elephant be from Betelgeuse?)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I consider myself computer-literate, but I still do not even understand the idea of an elephant, and am unlikely to read it until I have some idea what it is. Elephant has only been described in terms that make it seem like you must not only be computer-''literate'' but also well-read. Perhaps someone could clarify the [[elephant|elephant]] page? - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] (PS: will the elephant be from Betelgeuse?)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The non-flame response is, wait and see. I had a huge flame response here, instead of which, I respectfully suggest you reread the top half of the page, whch is quite clear (a forum like the wiki, but with strict tree-like structure); and if you object to people using words like Ankh and Ankus in the bottom half of the page, which is clearly delimited as a digression, kindly keep it to yourself. You know what they say about not being part of the solution... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>**** The non-flame response is, wait and see. I had a huge flame response here, instead of which, I respectfully suggest you reread the top half of the page, whch is quite clear (a forum like the wiki, but with strict tree-like structure); and if you object to people using words like Ankh and Ankus in the bottom half of the page, which is clearly delimited as a digression, kindly keep it to yourself. You know what they say about not being part of the solution... -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=87686&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: h" to "h"2014-03-23T12:00:47Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: h" to "h"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:00, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l42">Line 42:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The bottom line, I suppose, is no longer "Do you want a dictionary for yourself?" (a lot of you clearly don't), but "Do you think a dictionary should not be written by anyone at all?"</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The bottom line, I suppose, is no longer "Do you want a dictionary for yourself?" (a lot of you clearly don't), but "Do you think a dictionary should not be written by anyone at all?"</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Regardless of the will of the participants in this forum, who are by nature computer literate and even computer-oriented, or they would not be here, the bulk of the potential Lojban community will never read a Wiki or an Elephant. The standard for literate languagehood has for a couple hundred years been a dictionary of some kind. Lojban won't really "exist" for many people, until we can hand them a volume labelled "Dictionary" on the cover. One of the first things many new people ask is "where can I get a dictionary?", and the biggest excuse people have had historically for not learning the language has been "There is no dictionary yet". They don't want to make up lujvo, nor to choose amongst grammatical controversies. They want simple answers, and they want those answers to be unchanging (hence the baseline). (Once they learn the language of course, they tend to lean more towards one of the various axes that have been described - see [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>hardliners|hardliners]].) --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Regardless of the will of the participants in this forum, who are by nature computer literate and even computer-oriented, or they would not be here, the bulk of the potential Lojban community will never read a Wiki or an Elephant. The standard for literate languagehood has for a couple hundred years been a dictionary of some kind. Lojban won't really "exist" for many people, until we can hand them a volume labelled "Dictionary" on the cover. One of the first things many new people ask is "where can I get a dictionary?", and the biggest excuse people have had historically for not learning the language has been "There is no dictionary yet". They don't want to make up lujvo, nor to choose amongst grammatical controversies. They want simple answers, and they want those answers to be unchanging (hence the baseline). (Once they learn the language of course, they tend to lean more towards one of the various axes that have been described - see [[hardliners|hardliners]].) --[[User:Bob LeChevalier|lojbab]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Your assessment that most Lojbanists will not be computer literate and will never see an Elephant is, I think, 20 years out of date, and unrealistic. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=the_Lojban_Dictionary&diff=87677&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: d" to "d"2014-03-23T12:00:38Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: d" to "d"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:00, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Here are Nick's [[dictionary notes from 2001]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[jbocre: Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Jay's proposed dictionary database will go ahead, and is a good and wondrous thing. In the interests of some sort of public standard arising beforehand, if possible, I suggest we group-write a couple of definitions of some of the thornier words, as we would like to see them defined in the dictionary. I am particularly thinking of [[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] with gaps left in the [[jbocre: Refgram|Refgram]]. ''I object to group-writing definitions. As I pointed out in the [[fa'a (Dictionary|fa'a (Dictionary]]) page, we should let usage decide. I frankly agree with Jay that one can't push for something without also using it. - mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Gleki