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'''<- [[jbocre: Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong|Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong]]'''
The following is a draft of the statutes. Different people have diverse ideas for the structure and purposes of the organization. There remain areas where much more detail is needed. Please sign up for the Wiki, double-click this text and add your comments.


Times issue of the scope of ''vo'a'' has come up in the past:
=== The International Lojban Enthusiast Society (lo rolnai lojbo bo nelci jikca) ===


''Inspired by [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]]'s dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-) ''
A social membership organization whose mission is to provide venues and contexts for interacting in Lojban.


(In the following, I highlight defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance vo'a, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: ''le catra be vo'a'' as suicide, or ''.abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a'' where vo'a=by are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to vo'a refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.)
=== 1. What's the difference between ILES and [[jbocre: The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]]? ===


Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of vo'a. Jay?) So this is not complete.
ILES would not control what the Lojban language ''is''. That is an application of language design, math, logic, and the sciences. ILES would solely be in charge of creating the purposes toward which languages are put.


Discussion:
To work effectively as a legally incorporated entity, [[jbocre: The Logical Language Group|The Logical Language Group]], Inc. can only fit about a couple of dozen [[LLG Members|LLG Members]] and an even smaller Board of Directors. The Bylaws restrict membership to those with certain types of expertise. It is in charge of the language definition and development.


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9008/msg00016.html : John Cowan: at the time, accepting vo'a as long-distance, I think
But according to the [[Bylaws of The Logical Language Group, Inc.|Bylaws of The Logical Language Group, Inc.]], it is also tasked with social objectives that are outside the scope of a group so small to do alone. Social functions need to be delegated to a body large enough to be democratic for the community, and large enough to stay active when half its members are unavailable for months at a time.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00015.html : Lojbab: long-distance (I think)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00077.html : X: long-distance (agreeing with Y's hunch) [[jbocre: the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine|the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine]]
=== 2. What does ILES do? ===
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00063.html : Nick Nicholas: '''short'''-distance (!! I think I was arguing for a short distance default, back when vo'a was labile.)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00012.html : Colin Fine: '''non-comittal'''
'''2.1 Social Functions'''
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00031.html : Jorge Llambias: '''short'''-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00035.html : Lojbab: long-distance (in response to Jorge, with history of vo'a)
A social function is anything that depends on agreeing to show up at a particular place at a particular time. It would be enhanced by a voting process similar to that of meetup.com.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9507/msg00004.html : Lojbab: long-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00063.html : Iain Alexander: long-distance
- Organizing and attending Logfest.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html : Lojbab: long-distance


Long:Short:Non-Commital:  7:2:1
- Scheduling phone chats.


People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital:  3:2:1
- Scheduling IRC meetups.


Usage:
- Creating, administering, and playing the Lojban MOO and roleplaying micronation, [[jbocre: xartum|xartum]].


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9103/msg00023.html : Lojbab, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
- Chartering branch clubs such as the one in Detroit, and the potential one in California.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9011/msg00019.html : John Cowan (heheh), be vo'a, long-distance (i.e. x1 of main bridi, not of sumti selbri)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9112/msg00013.html : Nick Nicholas, ne vo'a and lenu vo'a, long-distance
- Coordinating collaborators on original Lojban literarature, music, art and film.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00052.html : Mark Shoulson, be vo'a, long-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00094.html : Nick Nicholas, pe/po/be vo'a, long-distance
'''2.1 Mouthpiece to Enthusiasts'''
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html : Mark Shoulson, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00016.html : Colin Fine, du'u vo'a, long-distance
ILES will not speak for the LLG, or for what the language is. But it will democratically represent the enthusiasts (see 3.2), and create an online digest of the output of the Lojban community.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00030.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00029.html : David Twery, ka vo'a, long-distance
Lojban has leveraged the potential of the internet to an incredible degree, but the best is yet to come. The success of other communities in networking through Livejournal, Friendster and MySpace proves that the internet is an incredible galvanizing mechanism. Lojban now has a podcast, but should also syndicate all Lojban blogs on the home page, and have Lojban enthusiasts create profile pages for themselves on the wiki.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html  : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00017.html : Andrew Smith, lenu vo'a, long-distance (I assume, since children are ordinarily washed by others)
Another mission of ILES will be an eventual outreach to offline Lojbanists. After the new org builds up great momentum with its internet constituency, we can do a postcard mailing and call the phone numbers on the list to see if they work, and try to have a non-internet outreach the same way we try to have outreach to countries that don't have Lojban materials in their language yet.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00015.html , [http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00016.html] : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, long-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9309/msg00119.html : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a: long-distance
=== 3. Who is involved? How much do we have to have in common? ===
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9502/msg00056.html : Chris Bogart, be vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (but probably '''short'''-distance)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00135.html : And Rosta, lenu vo'a, long-distance
'''3.1 Who is involved?'''
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00076.html : Chris Bogart. lenu..be vo'a, '''ambiguous'''


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9510/msg00148.html : And Rosta, be fai voa, long-distance
Membership is open to anyone who is interested in Lojban, at any skill level. Voting rights in the organization are conferred for one year by sending $5 to the Logical Language group with a request for membership. Subsidized memberships are available to students enrolled in school or college who demonstrate interest in the language.
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00135.html : Don Wiggins, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9612/msg00011.html : And Rosta, nunybroda be vo'a, long-distance
'''3.2 How much do we have to have in common?'''
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00055.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance


*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9804/msg00040.html : Lojbab, leni vo'a, long-distance
The first thing that is often asked about Lojban is "what is it for?" and many Lojbanists are quick to say "there are a huge variety of unrelated purposes, and to each person it is for whatever they want." Then we go on to describe Saphir-Whorf, AI research, the use of Lojban as a toy for shared fiction, and many others.


Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4
Each use is valid, and if someone thinks their usage of it is the only valid one, the misperception is not about Lojban. Their misperception has to do with whether their own valuation criteria are absolutes.


People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:0:1 (Lojbab, Shoulson, Fine have varied.)
Those who employ Lojban for artistic and literary purposes should recognize that it would lose its unique potentials for those purposes were it not for those who participants who are formally trained in Linguistics, Psychology, Philosophy, Logic, Mathematics, Computer Science, Anthropology, Sociology, Education and Human Biology.


New Lojban list:
Similarly, how much good is Lojban for serious experimentation if it isn't used? A language involves populations of speakers, which means all kinds of people from all walks of life, and many of them are going to use an artificial language for purposes unfitting to reputable scholarship, such as playing games or writing erotic horror novels. This is what a language does. More to the point, this is what linguistics test subjects do in their natural habitat.


Discussion:
Neither the researchers nor the hobbyists can do as well without each other. The functions of ILES should respect the variety of purposes to which Lojban can be put.


*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9108 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance (recanting '''short'''-distance -- which is how he remembered it, or what he read in [[jbocre: The Book|The Book]] if he didn't remember it)
=== 4. What Method Is Used To Make Decisions? ===
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9111 : Adam Raizen, '''short'''-distance


*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9113 : Lojbab, long-distance
RSPVing on times and locations for online and offline meetups will take place on the Lojban e-mail lists and polls on the wiki. It will merely be chiming in with one's desires, and tabulating them to figure out how to get the desired number of people to agree to be at the same online place at the same time.
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9157 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9182 : And Rosta, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9303 : pc, record, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9463 : pc, record, long-distance
 
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  6:1:0
 
People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital:  4:1:0
 
Usage:
 
Helsem:
 
[[jbocre: I am excluding the original postings of Helsem's story, in favour of the aggregate posting [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995]]
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/538 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/869 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/877 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1079 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1081 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1093 : Michael Helsem, ge ... gi vo'a, '''short'''-distance? But no real nesting.
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1336 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1415 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1578 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1591 : Michael Helsem, ledu'u vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1628 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1748 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance (Possibly, but the sentence is a little opaque for me.)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1760 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995 : Michael Helsem (the short story):
 
**le vo'a, long-distance;
**be vo'a, long-distance;
 
**be vo'a, long-distance;
**le vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
 
**levo'a, long-distance;
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**noi vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai lenu vo'a se xrani);
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
**ge vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
 
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
**lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
**lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
 
**poi.. ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
 
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2348 : Michael Helsem, poi vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2362 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383 : Michael Helsem, du'u vo'a, '''short'''-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2454 : Michael Helsem, po'u na'ebo vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2457 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (explicitly defending interpretation)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3143 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3150 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4270 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (I'm pretty sure that's how it was meant)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5093 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5622 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
 
Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':
 
Long:Short:Other:  43:2:4
 
Non-Helsem:
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/514 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (the ''na'e'' should have been ''cu na'e'', so this should not involve nesting at all)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/893 : tsali, ledu'u... be vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (But, I personally think, logophoric instead.)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1070 : Spigot, leka... soi vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (because there should have been a ''kei'' there, so in fact there is no nesting)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1190 : Robin Turner, lenu... soi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (Gotcha! soi vo'a, of course, is treated as a fixed idiom)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1549 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, long-distance (which is why he got it right in the lessons and Nick didn't)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308 : Cyril Slobin, noi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate sentence)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4393 : Adam Raizen, cei to vo'a, long-distance (but grammatically anomalous context)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5489 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6463 : Bjoern Gohla, lenu vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6953 : Jorge Llambias, le vo'a, long-distance (whether it picks up one or both referents is being questioned, but that the reference is long-distance, and this is not a "book about itself", is not in doubt.)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6956 : Lojbab, lenu vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6970 : xod, tu'a le vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7642 : Jorge Llambias, lenu vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8310 : Jorge Llambias, po'u le vo'a..., long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9005 : Adam Raizen, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9009 : Jorge Llambias, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9250 : Jorge Llambias, be vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9351 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
 
Not counting unintentionals.:
 
Long:Short:Other: 11:2:3
 
People consistently Long:Short:Other: 4:1:0 (Turner, Raizen, Llambias have been inconsistent, although the latter two are probably long-distance.)
 
Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.
 
''Who is doing all this wonderful work? Thank you!''
 
mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]. For now, I'm done, and I'm going home. I doubt this actually proves much, but I'll polemicise another day...

Revision as of 17:12, 4 November 2013

The following is a draft of the statutes. Different people have diverse ideas for the structure and purposes of the organization. There remain areas where much more detail is needed. Please sign up for the Wiki, double-click this text and add your comments.

The International Lojban Enthusiast Society (lo rolnai lojbo bo nelci jikca)

A social membership organization whose mission is to provide venues and contexts for interacting in Lojban.

1. What's the difference between ILES and The Logical Language Group?

ILES would not control what the Lojban language is. That is an application of language design, math, logic, and the sciences. ILES would solely be in charge of creating the purposes toward which languages are put.

To work effectively as a legally incorporated entity, The Logical Language Group, Inc. can only fit about a couple of dozen LLG Members and an even smaller Board of Directors. The Bylaws restrict membership to those with certain types of expertise. It is in charge of the language definition and development.

But according to the Bylaws of The Logical Language Group, Inc., it is also tasked with social objectives that are outside the scope of a group so small to do alone. Social functions need to be delegated to a body large enough to be democratic for the community, and large enough to stay active when half its members are unavailable for months at a time.

2. What does ILES do?

2.1 Social Functions

A social function is anything that depends on agreeing to show up at a particular place at a particular time. It would be enhanced by a voting process similar to that of meetup.com.

- Organizing and attending Logfest.

- Scheduling phone chats.

- Scheduling IRC meetups.

- Creating, administering, and playing the Lojban MOO and roleplaying micronation, xartum.

- Chartering branch clubs such as the one in Detroit, and the potential one in California.

- Coordinating collaborators on original Lojban literarature, music, art and film.

2.1 Mouthpiece to Enthusiasts

ILES will not speak for the LLG, or for what the language is. But it will democratically represent the enthusiasts (see 3.2), and create an online digest of the output of the Lojban community.

Lojban has leveraged the potential of the internet to an incredible degree, but the best is yet to come. The success of other communities in networking through Livejournal, Friendster and MySpace proves that the internet is an incredible galvanizing mechanism. Lojban now has a podcast, but should also syndicate all Lojban blogs on the home page, and have Lojban enthusiasts create profile pages for themselves on the wiki.

Another mission of ILES will be an eventual outreach to offline Lojbanists. After the new org builds up great momentum with its internet constituency, we can do a postcard mailing and call the phone numbers on the list to see if they work, and try to have a non-internet outreach the same way we try to have outreach to countries that don't have Lojban materials in their language yet.

3. Who is involved? How much do we have to have in common?

3.1 Who is involved?

Membership is open to anyone who is interested in Lojban, at any skill level. Voting rights in the organization are conferred for one year by sending $5 to the Logical Language group with a request for membership. Subsidized memberships are available to students enrolled in school or college who demonstrate interest in the language.

3.2 How much do we have to have in common?

The first thing that is often asked about Lojban is "what is it for?" and many Lojbanists are quick to say "there are a huge variety of unrelated purposes, and to each person it is for whatever they want." Then we go on to describe Saphir-Whorf, AI research, the use of Lojban as a toy for shared fiction, and many others.

Each use is valid, and if someone thinks their usage of it is the only valid one, the misperception is not about Lojban. Their misperception has to do with whether their own valuation criteria are absolutes.

Those who employ Lojban for artistic and literary purposes should recognize that it would lose its unique potentials for those purposes were it not for those who participants who are formally trained in Linguistics, Psychology, Philosophy, Logic, Mathematics, Computer Science, Anthropology, Sociology, Education and Human Biology.

Similarly, how much good is Lojban for serious experimentation if it isn't used? A language involves populations of speakers, which means all kinds of people from all walks of life, and many of them are going to use an artificial language for purposes unfitting to reputable scholarship, such as playing games or writing erotic horror novels. This is what a language does. More to the point, this is what linguistics test subjects do in their natural habitat.

Neither the researchers nor the hobbyists can do as well without each other. The functions of ILES should respect the variety of purposes to which Lojban can be put.

4. What Method Is Used To Make Decisions?

RSPVing on times and locations for online and offline meetups will take place on the Lojban e-mail lists and polls on the wiki. It will merely be chiming in with one's desires, and tabulating them to figure out how to get the desired number of people to agree to be at the same online place at the same time.