round Six: Difference between revisions

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Considering only words that meet these criteria:
Original, taken from the beginning Benjamin Lee Whorf's essay "Languages and Logic" (reprinted in ''Language Thought and Reality'', page 233)


*End in a vowel and have at least one consonant pair in the first five letters, ignoring apostrophes
In English, the sentences 'I pull the branch aside' and 'I have an extra
*Have no 'y'


*Have at least two syllables
toe on my foot' have little similarity.  Leaving out the subject pro-
*All adjacent letters are valid in brivla, and initial pair, if any, is valid


*Have no four consonants in a row, none of which is syllabic,
noun and the sign of the present tense, which are common features from


here are some kinds of valid fu'ivla. Please check this for r and n corner cases and any other errors.
requirements of English syntax, we may say that no similarity exists.


*Any word of the form V(V)CC(C)V. E.g. iglu, uiski.
Common, and even scientific, parlance would say that the sentences are
**These depend on the "[[jbocre: When are pauses mandatory ause between stressed cmavo and brivla|When are pauses mandatory ause between stressed cmavo and brivla]]" rule for validity and are likely to be misheard.


**** You could also say that they rely on the mandatory pause before all words which begin with vowels, and are not likely to be misheard.
unlike because they are talking about things which are intrinsically un-
**** Only the stress differentiates, say, ''.iglu ta'' from ''.i gluta''.


***** Same thing that differentiates  ''miglu ta'' from ''mi gluta'', nothing special about ''iglu'' here.
like. So Mr. Everyman, the natural logician, would be inclined to argue.
**** The example was ''.iglu zbasu''. ''.IgluZBAsu'' is ''.iglu zbasu'', whereas ''.I.gluZBAsu'' is ''.i gluzbasu''.


***** Same thing happens between ''MIgluZBAsu'' which is ''miglu zbasu'', and ''MI.gluZBAsu'', which is ''mi gluzbasu''. Nothing special about ''iglu'' here.
Formal logic of an older type would perhaps agree with him.
*Any word of the form V(V)CC(C)VV, where the final VV is a diphthong.


*Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and containing
Craig, translating from English to Lojban:
**VCVCV  E.g. kr'''otalu''', str'''amoni'''.


**C/CVCV  E.g. salma'''ndera''', mlo'''ngena'''.
bau le glico le bridi po'u lu mi le jimca ca lacpu li'u le bridi po'u lu da fi mi ca du'emoi jmadegji li'u na cu sisma .i mu'inai le vlarpronauni .e le ka pilno zo ca ku noi kampu bai le gerna be le glico ku ku ku ma'a le nu na sisma ku cu ka'e cusku .i le kampu nu tavla .e le saske nu tavla ku lenu lei bridi na simsa bai lenu ciksi reda poi na ka'e simsa ku ku cusku .ija'e la kamprenu no'u le rarna logjypre ku tugna .ei .i le dzena saske logji ku la kamprenu tugni
**CC/C    E.g. fasxola'''rkt'''o. This includes all [[jbocre: type 3 fu'ivla]].


**CCCVV  E.g. '''spra'i''', '''sprai'''le
Greg, translating from Lojban to French:
**CCCC    E.g. da'''mskr'''ima.


**VVV    E.g. br'''u'a'a'''.
En Anglais, les phrases "Je tire la branche" et "J'ai trop de doigts de
**VV not valid in lujvo. E.g. srut'''io'''.


**initial V  E.g. '''e'''rnace.
pieds" ne sont pas semblables. En depit du pronom et de l'utilisation,
**final VVCV  E.g. kr'''i'ibe''', spr'''aile'''.


**VVC/C other than in initial CVVC/C
commune dans la grammaire anglaise, du temps present, nous pouvons dire
**VVCCVV other than in initial CVVC/CVV


**C/C followed by a number of letters multiple of three. E.g. sa'''lm'''andera, mlo'''ng'''ena, braklu'''nd'''era.
qu'elles ne sont pas semblables. La conversation normale et  scientifique
**CCC followed by a 2 mod 3 number of letters. E.g. '''spr'''a'i


**CVCV followed by a 2 mod 3 number of letters.
exprime que ces phrases ne sont pas semblables a cause de l'explication que
**VV (other than in initial CVV) followed by a 1 mod 3 number of letters.


**initial CVV followed by a 2 mod 3 number of letters.
deux choses ne peuvent pas etre semblables. En consequence, le Soi, la
**initial CVC followed by a 1 mod 3 number of letters.


**initial CCVV followed a 1 mod 3 number of letters.
personne instinctivement logique, doit etre de cet avis. Et l'ancienne
**CCC and a vowel in a position that is 2 mod 3 counting after CCC. E.g. spra'''i'''le, stramon'''i'''.


**any other string that can't appear in a lujvo or lujvo minus initial CV.
science logique est du meme avis que le Soi.


All of the following are subsumed in the above.
Randall, translating from French to Lojban:


*Any word beginning CCC and having a vowel in a position that is 2 mod 3, not counting apostrophes. E.g. spraile, stramoni.
bau le glibau le jufra po'u lu mi lacpu le jimca li'u jo'u lu mi ponse
*Any word of the form CCV(CCV)+CV where one of the CC's (not the first) is replaced with C/C. E.g. mlongena, braklundera.


*Any word of the form CVC/CVCV, CVC/CVCCVCV, CVC/CVC/CVCV, etc. E.g. salmandera.
le du'e jmadegji li'u na simsa cei broda .i ki'unai le snima'o .e lenu
*Any word beginning VC/CV or VVC/CV or VVVC/CV. E.g. ernace.


*Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and ending VCVCV. E.g. krotalu.
pilno vu'o noi fadni fi le gerna be le glibau ca le cabycedra cu kakne
** Can be generalized to: Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and containing VCVCV or C/CVCV. E.g. krotalu.


*Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and containing a vowel pair that is not valid in lujvo. If it would be a valid lujvo on changing the vowel pair, this is disputed. E.g. srutio.
lenu cusku ledu'u broda .i lenu fadni ja saske casnu cu cusku ledu'u
*Any word beginning CVCCCC, where the CCCC includes a non-initial pair, or CCVCCC. This includes the [[jbocre: type 3 fu'ivla]] with full gisms. E.g. damskrima (which is disputed because the 'm' and 'r', though syllabic consonants, are not actually syllabic in this word).


** The CCVCCC part is wrong. leCCVCCCa is a lujvo form.
broda ku ki'u le velcki po'u ledu'u da node simsa .i la sevzi noi
*Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and ending in CC/CV or C/C/CV. E.g. fasxolarkto.


** Can be generalized to: Any word beginning with a consonant cluster, or with the second syllaboid beginning with a non-initial cluster, and containing CC/C or C/C/C. E.g. fasxolarkto.
rarna logji prenu cu bilga leza'i jinvi ledu'u broda
*Any word beginning CCVV. E.g. kri'ibe.


**This needs some restriction. ''kri'ibei'' is not valid because ''lekri'ibei'' is a lujvo.
Xod, translating from Lojban to English:
***One possible restriction is "with a number of letters, not counting apostrophes, that is a multiple of three". Any others?


****''kri'ibroda'' has 9 letters, but ''lekri'ibroda'' is a luvjo. It has to be "beginning CCVV and with a number of letters that is 2 mod 3", but then ''kri'ibe'' is not an example of this rule.
In English, the sentences "I pull the branch", and "I have too many toes"


This is not an exhaustive list.
are not alike. Still, normal sign-cmavo and normal usage in Modern English
 
grammar can express similarity. Normal or scientific discussion expresses
 
similarity because the explanation is that something is like nothing else.
 
"Self", who is a naturally logical person, is obliged to believe in
 
similarity.
 
Nora, translating from English to Lojban:
 
bau le glibau na simsa fa zoi gy I pull the branch gy no'u lu mi lacpu le
 
jimca li'u zoi gy I have too many toes gy no'u lu mi se jmadegji du'e da
 
li'u .ija'enaibo ka'e cusku le sedu'u simsa kei ta'i le nu pilno lo fadni
 
snima'o .a lo fadni terge'a be le ze'aca glibau .i le nu cusku le sedu'u
 
simsa kei le fadni .e le skepre cu se kakne seja'e le du'u ciksi fo le du'u
 
de simsa no drata be de .i la sevzi noi jinzi ke logji prenu cu bilga le nu
 
krici le ka simsa
 
Jorge, translating from Lojban to Esperanto:
 
En la angla "I pull the branch", kio estas "mi tiras la brancxon",
 
ne similas al "I have too many toes", kio estas "mi havas tro da
 
piedfingroj". Tamen eblas diri ke ili estas similaj uzante ordinara
 
pronomo aux ordinara teksto gramatika laux nuntempa angla. La eblo
 
diri ke ili estas similaj al ordinarulo kaj al sciencisto rezultas
 
el klarigi per tio, ke io similas al nenio krom al si. La memo,
 
kiu estas esence logika persono, devas kredi je simileco.
 
Tsali, translating from Esperanto to Lojban:
 
bau le glico ku zoi gy I pull the branch gy noi smuni dunli lu mi lacpu le
 
jimca li'u na'e simsa zoi gy I have too many toes gy noi smuni dunli lu mi
 
se jamdegji lo du'emei .i ku'i kakne co darlu le du'u simsa fi le ka vasru
 
lo kampu basnyvla kei ku .e le ka kampu lerseltcidu poi gerdrani fi le
 
cabna glico
 
.i le nu kakne co darlu le nu simsa fa lo kampu prenu lo saske prenu le ka
 
ce'u jimpe le re jufra cu nibli le du'u da simsa no de poi drata da .i le
 
sevzi noi jinzi logji prenu cu bilga le nu birti fi le ka simsa
 
Rob, translating from Lojban to English:
 
In English, "I pull the branch", which has the same meaning as {mi
 
lacpu le jimca}, is not the same as "I have too many toes", which has
 
the same meaning as {mi se jamdegji lo du'emei}. However, it can be
 
argued that they are similar in containing common emphasis words, and
 
in being common texts that are grammatically correct in modern
 
English.
 
Since it can be argued that both scientists and common people
 
similarly understand the two sentences, this implies that there is
 
something which is similar to nothing else. The self who is an
 
innately logical person is obligated to be convinced of the
 
similarity.
 
Lee Daniel, translating from English to Lojban:
 
bau le glibau
 
zoi gy. I pull the branch .gy.
 
noi smuni mintu lu mi lacpu le jimca li'u
 
cu na mintu zoi gy. I have too many toes .gy.
 
noi smuni mintu lu lo mi jamdegji cu du'emei li'u
 
.iku'i
 
da cumki darlu le du'u ra simsmi
 
le du'u lo fadni basna valsi cu pagbu ra
 
.e le du'u ra fadni vlapoi
 
poi gerna drani bau le cabna glibau
 
.i da cumki darlu le du'u
 
le skeprenu .e le fadni prenu cu simsa jimpe ra
 
.i la'edi'u nibli le du'u
 
de poi ckaji ra cu simsa no di poi du de
 
.i le sevzi noi jinzi logji cu sarcu birti le nu simsa
 
Pierre, translating from Lojban to French:
 
En anglais, "I pull the branch", qui veut dire "je tire le rame", n'est pas
 
le m�me que "I have too many toes", qui veut dire "mes orteils sont une
 
tropaine".
 
Mais on peut arguer qu'ils se ressemblent en ce que des mots souvent
 
accentu�s en font partie et ce sont des locutions communes qui sont
 
grammaticales en anglais courant.
 
Et on peut arguer que le scientiste et l'homme commun le comprennent
 
similairement. Ceci implique que une qualit� de �a ne ressemble rien
 
qui est lui-m�me. Le soi, qui est inh�remment logique, est n�cessairement
 
certain de la ressemblance.
 
Adam, translating from French to Lojban:
 
.i zoi zoi I pull the branch zoi nebau le glibau zi'enoi se smuni la'e lu mi
 
lacpu le grana li'u na dunli zoi zoi I have too many toes zoi nebau le glibau
 
zi'enoi se smuni la'e lu lei jmadegji be mi cu du'emei li'u
 
.i ku'i cumki fa le nu xusra le du'u le remei cu smisi'u le ka loi valsi poi
 
so'iroi se basna cu pagbu ce'u kei kei .e le du'u le jufra cu fadni jufra gi'e
 
drani ma'i le gerna be le kampu glibau
 
.i ji'a cumki fa le nu xusra le du'u lo'e skecre lo'e fadni prenu cu simsa le ka
 
ta'i makau ce'u jimpe ra .i la'e di'u nibli le du'u ro se ckaji be ra cu simsa
 
no da poi du ra .i lo'e sevzi noi se jinzi le ka racli cu na ka'e na birti le
 
du'u simsa

Latest revision as of 08:34, 30 June 2014

Original, taken from the beginning Benjamin Lee Whorf's essay "Languages and Logic" (reprinted in Language Thought and Reality, page 233)

In English, the sentences 'I pull the branch aside' and 'I have an extra

toe on my foot' have little similarity. Leaving out the subject pro-

noun and the sign of the present tense, which are common features from

requirements of English syntax, we may say that no similarity exists.

Common, and even scientific, parlance would say that the sentences are

unlike because they are talking about things which are intrinsically un-

like. So Mr. Everyman, the natural logician, would be inclined to argue.

Formal logic of an older type would perhaps agree with him.

Craig, translating from English to Lojban:

bau le glico le bridi po'u lu mi le jimca ca lacpu li'u le bridi po'u lu da fi mi ca du'emoi jmadegji li'u na cu sisma .i mu'inai le vlarpronauni .e le ka pilno zo ca ku noi kampu bai le gerna be le glico ku ku ku ma'a le nu na sisma ku cu ka'e cusku .i le kampu nu tavla .e le saske nu tavla ku lenu lei bridi na simsa bai lenu ciksi reda poi na ka'e simsa ku ku cusku .ija'e la kamprenu no'u le rarna logjypre ku tugna .ei .i le dzena saske logji ku la kamprenu tugni

Greg, translating from Lojban to French:

En Anglais, les phrases "Je tire la branche" et "J'ai trop de doigts de

pieds" ne sont pas semblables. En depit du pronom et de l'utilisation,

commune dans la grammaire anglaise, du temps present, nous pouvons dire

qu'elles ne sont pas semblables. La conversation normale et scientifique

exprime que ces phrases ne sont pas semblables a cause de l'explication que

deux choses ne peuvent pas etre semblables. En consequence, le Soi, la

personne instinctivement logique, doit etre de cet avis. Et l'ancienne

science logique est du meme avis que le Soi.

Randall, translating from French to Lojban:

bau le glibau le jufra po'u lu mi lacpu le jimca li'u jo'u lu mi ponse

le du'e jmadegji li'u na simsa cei broda .i ki'unai le snima'o .e lenu

pilno vu'o noi fadni fi le gerna be le glibau ca le cabycedra cu kakne

lenu cusku ledu'u broda .i lenu fadni ja saske casnu cu cusku ledu'u

broda ku ki'u le velcki po'u ledu'u da node simsa .i la sevzi noi

rarna logji prenu cu bilga leza'i jinvi ledu'u broda

Xod, translating from Lojban to English:

In English, the sentences "I pull the branch", and "I have too many toes"

are not alike. Still, normal sign-cmavo and normal usage in Modern English

grammar can express similarity. Normal or scientific discussion expresses

similarity because the explanation is that something is like nothing else.

"Self", who is a naturally logical person, is obliged to believe in

similarity.

Nora, translating from English to Lojban:

bau le glibau na simsa fa zoi gy I pull the branch gy no'u lu mi lacpu le

jimca li'u zoi gy I have too many toes gy no'u lu mi se jmadegji du'e da

li'u .ija'enaibo ka'e cusku le sedu'u simsa kei ta'i le nu pilno lo fadni

snima'o .a lo fadni terge'a be le ze'aca glibau .i le nu cusku le sedu'u

simsa kei le fadni .e le skepre cu se kakne seja'e le du'u ciksi fo le du'u

de simsa no drata be de .i la sevzi noi jinzi ke logji prenu cu bilga le nu

krici le ka simsa

Jorge, translating from Lojban to Esperanto:

En la angla "I pull the branch", kio estas "mi tiras la brancxon",

ne similas al "I have too many toes", kio estas "mi havas tro da

piedfingroj". Tamen eblas diri ke ili estas similaj uzante ordinara

pronomo aux ordinara teksto gramatika laux nuntempa angla. La eblo

diri ke ili estas similaj al ordinarulo kaj al sciencisto rezultas

el klarigi per tio, ke io similas al nenio krom al si. La memo,

kiu estas esence logika persono, devas kredi je simileco.

Tsali, translating from Esperanto to Lojban:

bau le glico ku zoi gy I pull the branch gy noi smuni dunli lu mi lacpu le

jimca li'u na'e simsa zoi gy I have too many toes gy noi smuni dunli lu mi

se jamdegji lo du'emei .i ku'i kakne co darlu le du'u simsa fi le ka vasru

lo kampu basnyvla kei ku .e le ka kampu lerseltcidu poi gerdrani fi le

cabna glico

.i le nu kakne co darlu le nu simsa fa lo kampu prenu lo saske prenu le ka

ce'u jimpe le re jufra cu nibli le du'u da simsa no de poi drata da .i le

sevzi noi jinzi logji prenu cu bilga le nu birti fi le ka simsa

Rob, translating from Lojban to English:

In English, "I pull the branch", which has the same meaning as {mi

lacpu le jimca}, is not the same as "I have too many toes", which has

the same meaning as {mi se jamdegji lo du'emei}. However, it can be

argued that they are similar in containing common emphasis words, and

in being common texts that are grammatically correct in modern

English.

Since it can be argued that both scientists and common people

similarly understand the two sentences, this implies that there is

something which is similar to nothing else. The self who is an

innately logical person is obligated to be convinced of the

similarity.

Lee Daniel, translating from English to Lojban:

bau le glibau

zoi gy. I pull the branch .gy.

noi smuni mintu lu mi lacpu le jimca li'u

cu na mintu zoi gy. I have too many toes .gy.

noi smuni mintu lu lo mi jamdegji cu du'emei li'u

.iku'i

da cumki darlu le du'u ra simsmi

le du'u lo fadni basna valsi cu pagbu ra

.e le du'u ra fadni vlapoi

poi gerna drani bau le cabna glibau

.i da cumki darlu le du'u

le skeprenu .e le fadni prenu cu simsa jimpe ra

.i la'edi'u nibli le du'u

de poi ckaji ra cu simsa no di poi du de

.i le sevzi noi jinzi logji cu sarcu birti le nu simsa

Pierre, translating from Lojban to French:

En anglais, "I pull the branch", qui veut dire "je tire le rame", n'est pas

le m�me que "I have too many toes", qui veut dire "mes orteils sont une

tropaine".

Mais on peut arguer qu'ils se ressemblent en ce que des mots souvent

accentu�s en font partie et ce sont des locutions communes qui sont

grammaticales en anglais courant.

Et on peut arguer que le scientiste et l'homme commun le comprennent

similairement. Ceci implique que une qualit� de �a ne ressemble rien

qui est lui-m�me. Le soi, qui est inh�remment logique, est n�cessairement

certain de la ressemblance.

Adam, translating from French to Lojban:

.i zoi zoi I pull the branch zoi nebau le glibau zi'enoi se smuni la'e lu mi

lacpu le grana li'u na dunli zoi zoi I have too many toes zoi nebau le glibau

zi'enoi se smuni la'e lu lei jmadegji be mi cu du'emei li'u

.i ku'i cumki fa le nu xusra le du'u le remei cu smisi'u le ka loi valsi poi

so'iroi se basna cu pagbu ce'u kei kei .e le du'u le jufra cu fadni jufra gi'e

drani ma'i le gerna be le kampu glibau

.i ji'a cumki fa le nu xusra le du'u lo'e skecre lo'e fadni prenu cu simsa le ka

ta'i makau ce'u jimpe ra .i la'e di'u nibli le du'u ro se ckaji be ra cu simsa

no da poi du ra .i lo'e sevzi noi se jinzi le ka racli cu na ka'e na birti le

du'u simsa