https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&feed=atom&action=historyresequencing sumti - Revision history2024-03-28T22:16:38ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=121408&oldid=prevGleki at 17:18, 26 December 20162016-12-26T17:18:51Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>le ve broda<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>without using SE (except for '''le poi'i broda fo ke'a''' - and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>le ve broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>without using SE (except for '''le poi'i broda fo ke'a''' - and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* What about '''le jai fo broda'''?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* What about '''le jai fo broda'''?</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=121407&oldid=prevGleki at 17:18, 26 December 20162016-12-26T17:18:17Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:18, 26 December 2016</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What is good practise in sequencing sumti in a flexible yet perspicuous way?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What is good practise in sequencing sumti in a flexible yet perspicuous way?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[And <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">y</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And y</del>]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[And <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Rosta</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">My</ins>]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for ''le poi'i broda fo ke'a'' <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-</del>- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le poi'i broda fo ke'a''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">' </ins>- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* What about ''le jai fo broda''?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* What about <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''le jai fo broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>But I have problems using SE. ''se'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that ''te'', ''ve'', ''xe'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-</del>- for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>But I have problems using SE. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''se<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''te<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''ve<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'', <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''xe<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling - for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I decided to check how to do 51234 with SE. It turns out to be ''xe ve te se''. I had to use the Search function to find it!</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I decided to check how to do 51234 with SE. It turns out to be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''xe ve te se<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''. I had to use the Search function to find it!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* actually ''xese broda'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* actually <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''xese broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***<nowiki>[Fair enough, but 51342 overtaxes my brain. I can cope with any ordering of FA-tagged sumti, but for untagged sumti I need them to occur in canonical order, except for the sumti promoted by SE.]</nowiki></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 31 = '''te se broda''' (312)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 41 = '''ve se broda''' (4132)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 51 = '''xe se broda''' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! ('''mi'e maikl.''')</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***[[Fair enough</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but 51342 overtaxes my brain</del>. I can <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">cope with any ordering of FA</del>-<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">tagged sumti</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but for untagged sumti I </del>need <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">them </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">occur in canonical order, except for </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sumti promoted </del>by SE.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using '''ve'''</ins>. I can<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'t remember the SE</ins>-<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">combo for 41</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">so </ins>need to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mark </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">1 </ins>by <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">FA. The problem is that '''fa''' is supposed to mark the x1 <u>after</u> </ins>SE<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[Woldy|Woldy</ins>]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">I can't remember whether '''fo ko'a ko'e broda''' yields 41 or 45 and whether </ins>''broda <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">fo ko</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a ko</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e'' yields 42 or 45.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 31 = </del>''<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">te se </del>broda'' <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(312)</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* to get 41 = ''ve se broda'' (4132)</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 51 = ''xe se broda'' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! (''mi'e maikl.'')</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Do you mean <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fo ke'a <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u></ins>fu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></u> </ins>ke'o<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41, and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using ''ve''. I can't remember the SE-combo for 41, so need to mark the 1 by FA. The problem is that ''fa'' is supposed to mark the x1 '''after''' SE-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is. Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[Woldy|Woldy]] I can't remember whether ''fo ko'a ko'e broda'' yields 41 or 45 and whether ''broda fo ko'a ko'e'' yields 42 or 45.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* ''</del>For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Do you mean ''fo ke'a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del>fu<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </del>ke'o''?</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The dialect that appeals to me works thus:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The dialect that appeals to me works thus:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless ''se'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''se<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of [[foi'V|foi'V]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of [[foi'V|foi'V]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** '''<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Since {</del>se broda<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">} </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">offcially </del>a new predicate, different from <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{</del>broda<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">}</del>, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1. This seems like hairsplitting.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Since </ins>'''se broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">officially </ins>a new predicate, different from <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1. This seems like hairsplitting.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* the presence of FA-tagged sumti does not affect the place assigned to sumti that aren't FA-tagged, except in that places identified by FA-tagging are not available to be identified by sequence.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* the presence of FA-tagged sumti does not affect the place assigned to sumti that aren't FA-tagged, except in that places identified by FA-tagging are not available to be identified by sequence.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Does this mean that {broda fo a b c d} is {broda b c a d} or {broda - b a c}?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>Does this mean that {broda fo a b c d} is {broda b c a d} or {broda - b a c}?<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I mean that the for-me most intuitive rule would be that {broda fo a b c d} identifies a b c d as x4, x2, x3, x5 respectively. {fo a b c d broda} would identify them as x4, x1, x2, x3.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I mean that the for-me most intuitive rule would be that {broda fo a b c d} identifies a b c d as x4, x2, x3, x5 respectively. {fo a b c d broda} would identify them as x4, x1, x2, x3.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>--And.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>--And.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=121406&oldid=prev4D enthusiast: suggested "jai FA" as a replacement in certain contexts2016-12-26T16:33:50Z<p>suggested "jai FA" as a replacement in certain contexts</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:33, 26 December 2016</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for ''le poi'i broda fo ke'a'' -- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for ''le poi'i broda fo ke'a'' -- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* What about ''le jai fo broda''?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>But I have problems using SE. ''se'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that ''te'', ''ve'', ''xe'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling -- for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>But I have problems using SE. ''se'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that ''te'', ''ve'', ''xe'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling -- for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.</div></td></tr>
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</table>4D enthusiasthttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=91169&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:54:50Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([L-Z])" to "$1"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[And y|And y]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[And y|And y]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l21">Line 21:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 21:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** to get 51 = ''xe se broda'' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! (''mi'e maikl.'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** to get 51 = ''xe se broda'' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! (''mi'e maikl.'')</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41, and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using ''ve''. I can't remember the SE-combo for 41, so need to mark the 1 by FA. The problem is that ''fa'' is supposed to mark the x1 '''after''' SE-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is. Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Woldy|Woldy]] I can't remember whether ''fo ko'a ko'e broda'' yields 41 or 45 and whether ''broda fo ko'a ko'e'' yields 42 or 45.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41, and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using ''ve''. I can't remember the SE-combo for 41, so need to mark the 1 by FA. The problem is that ''fa'' is supposed to mark the x1 '''after''' SE-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is. Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[Woldy|Woldy]] I can't remember whether ''fo ko'a ko'e broda'' yields 41 or 45 and whether ''broda fo ko'a ko'e'' yields 42 or 45.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}''</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-90205:rev-91169 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=90205&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:46:15Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<col class="diff-marker" />
<col class="diff-content" />
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:46, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l2">Line 2:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 2:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What is good practise in sequencing sumti in a flexible yet perspicuous way?</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>What is good practise in sequencing sumti in a flexible yet perspicuous way?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>And y|And y]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[And y|And y]] thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[jbocre: Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[jbocre: Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l15">Line 15:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 15:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* actually ''xese broda'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* actually ''xese broda'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Fair enough, but 51342 overtaxes my brain. I can cope with any ordering of FA-tagged sumti, but for untagged sumti I need them to occur in canonical order, except for the sumti promoted by SE.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[Fair enough, but 51342 overtaxes my brain. I can cope with any ordering of FA-tagged sumti, but for untagged sumti I need them to occur in canonical order, except for the sumti promoted by SE.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** to get 31 = ''te se broda'' (312)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** to get 31 = ''te se broda'' (312)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=89971&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: resequencing sumti to resequencing sumti without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:45:20Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_resequencing_sumti&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: resequencing sumti (page does not exist)">jbocre: resequencing sumti</a> to <a href="/papri/resequencing_sumti" title="resequencing sumti">resequencing sumti</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
<tr class="diff-title" lang="en">
<td colspan="1" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="1" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:45, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-notice" lang="en"><div class="mw-diff-empty">(No difference)</div>
</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=87299&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"2014-03-23T11:49:13Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:49, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l29">Line 29:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless ''se'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless ''se'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>foi'V|foi'V]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* ''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of [[foi'V|foi'V]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** '''Since {se broda} is offcially a new predicate, different from {broda}, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1. This seems like hairsplitting.'''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** '''Since {se broda} is offcially a new predicate, different from {broda}, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1. This seems like hairsplitting.'''</div></td></tr>
<!-- diff cache key mediawiki:diff::1.12:old-75911:rev-87299 -->
</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=75911&oldid=prevGleki at 17:11, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:11:04Z<p></p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 17:11, 4 November 2013</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[jbocre: <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">NickNicholas</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">NickNicholas</del>]] = [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">User</del>:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nick Nicholas</del>|<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nick Nicholas</del>]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">What is good practise in sequencing sumti in a flexible yet perspicuous way?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>[[jbocre: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And y</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">And y</ins>]] <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">thoughts on the matter grappling with sumti sequencing.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[jbocre: Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* ''For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for ''le poi'i broda fo ke'a'' -- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">But I have problems using SE. ''se'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that ''te'', ''ve'', ''xe'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling -- for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* I decided to check how to do 51234 with SE. It turns out to be ''xe ve te se''. I had to use the Search function to find it!</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* actually ''xese broda'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">***[[jbocre: Fair enough, but 51342 overtaxes my brain. I can cope with any ordering of FA-tagged sumti, but for untagged sumti I need them to occur in canonical order, except for the sumti promoted by SE.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 31 = ''te se broda'' (312)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 41 </ins>= <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''ve se broda'' (4132)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** to get 51 = ''xe se broda'' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! (''mi'e maikl.'')</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41, and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using ''ve''. I can't remember the SE-combo for 41, so need to mark the 1 by FA. The problem is that ''fa'' is supposed to mark the x1 '''after''' SE-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is. Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[jbocre: Woldy|Woldy]] I can't remember whether ''fo ko'a ko'e broda'' yields 41 or 45 and whether ''broda fo ko'a ko'e'' yields 42 or 45.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* ''For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Do you mean ''fo ke'a '''fu''' ke'o''?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The dialect that appeals to me works thus:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless ''se'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* ''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of </ins>[[<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre</ins>: <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">foi'V</ins>|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">foi'V</ins>]]<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** '''Since {se broda} is offcially a new predicate, different from {broda}, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1. This seems like hairsplitting.'''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* the presence of FA-tagged sumti does not affect the place assigned to sumti that aren't FA-tagged, except in that places identified by FA-tagging are not available to be identified by sequence.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** ''Does this mean that {broda fo a b c d} is {broda b c a d} or {broda - b a c}?''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** I mean that the for-me most intuitive rule would be that {broda fo a b c d} identifies a b c d as x4, x2, x3, x5 respectively. {fo a b c d broda} would identify them as x4, x1, x2, x3.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--And.</ins></div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=resequencing_sumti&diff=65362&oldid=prevGleki at 17:06, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:06:15Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
[[jbocre: NickNicholas|NickNicholas]] = [[User:Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]]</div>Gleki