https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&feed=atom&action=historyralju brivla deep structure - Revision history2024-03-29T12:20:42ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=121621&oldid=prevGleki at 09:34, 14 June 20172017-06-14T09:34:32Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[la gleki]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[la gleki]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMO, gismu deep structure means you can write a complete definition of any word (or particular word when applied to it) in pure Lojban using only baseline gismu and cmavo.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMO, gismu deep structure means you can write a complete definition of any word (or particular word when applied to it) in pure Lojban using only baseline gismu and cmavo.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=121620&oldid=prevGleki: /* Discussion */2017-06-14T09:34:20Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Discussion</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 09:34, 14 June 2017</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l64">Line 64:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[la gleki]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[la gleki]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMO, gismu <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">dep </del>structure means you can write a complete definition of any word (or particular word when applied to it) in pure Lojban using only baseline gismu and cmavo.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** IMO, gismu <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">deep </ins>structure means you can write a complete definition of any word (or particular word when applied to it) in pure Lojban using only baseline gismu and cmavo.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=121619&oldid=prevGleki: /* Discussion */2017-06-14T09:34:06Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Discussion</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 09:34, 14 June 2017</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l63">Line 63:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[la gleki]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** IMO, gismu dep structure means you can write a complete definition of any word (or particular word when applied to it) in pure Lojban using only baseline gismu and cmavo.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=121618&oldid=prevGleki at 09:25, 14 June 20172017-06-14T09:25:36Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 09:25, 14 June 2017</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l26">Line 26:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:You're right, of course. This isn't so much a reason to do anything different, as a underlying motivation for why certain things are already being done.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:You're right, of course. This isn't so much a reason to do anything different, as a underlying motivation for why certain things are already being done.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:If 1350 primitives (times however many places) are "enough to express all meaning", why is that number special? Suppose there are 10 000 different sumti places. Why is 10 000 enough primitives but 10 too few? Such a statement means that the <u>actual</u><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> number </del>of primitives in <u>reality</u> is some number between 10 and 10 000! Who is prepared to make that claim?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:If 1350 primitives (times however many places) are "enough to express all meaning", why is that number special? Suppose there are 10 000 different sumti places. Why is 10 000 enough primitives but 10 too few? Such a statement means that the <u>actual</u><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">&nbsp;number </ins>of primitives in <u>reality</u> is some number between 10 and 10 000! Who is prepared to make that claim?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[Adam|Adam]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[Adam|Adam]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:Of course the actual gismu list is not minimal. There are many gismu which can paraphrased in terms of other gismu. You can't really tell whether any particular set of gismu is minimal, because it's always possible that you overlooked some paraphrase, or that you cut some [[malglico|malglico]] corner in reducing the list. Also, there's always a large number of concepts which need [[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]]. Still, the gismu list appears sufficient for covering the vast majority of semantic space.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:Of course the actual gismu list is not minimal. There are many gismu which can paraphrased in terms of other gismu. You can't really tell whether any particular set of gismu is minimal, because it's always possible that you overlooked some paraphrase, or that you cut some [[malglico|malglico]] corner in reducing the list. Also, there's always a large number of concepts which need [[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]]. Still, the gismu list appears sufficient for covering the vast majority of semantic space.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******:I never said I was unwilling to follow constructive criticism, Adam :-) In fact, inasmuch as I was unable at the time to come up with anything better, I strongly urge you to. (And as you know, xorxes pointed out about me that I metatalk hardliner, but use Lojban like a naturalist. Maybe I'm being realistic despite myself; maybe, on the other hand, I'm being lazy. It's hard for me to tell. Like I say, I want nothing more than to discuss this, and what alternatives there might be.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>******:I never said I was unwilling to follow constructive criticism, Adam :-) In fact, inasmuch as I was unable at the time to come up with anything better, I strongly urge you to. (And as you know, xorxes pointed out about me that I metatalk hardliner, but use Lojban like a naturalist. Maybe I'm being realistic despite myself; maybe, on the other hand, I'm being lazy. It's hard for me to tell. Like I say, I want nothing more than to discuss this, and what alternatives there might be.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Maybe ''skeplicre'' in the sense used in ''Epictetus''.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Maybe <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''skeplicre<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' in the sense used in ''Epictetus''.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:My attitude is rather consistent with Gödel's; I have outlined a proof that shows that no number of semantic primitives is enough to cover all meaning. That ''was'' the position to which I am responding, wasn't it? As for pointlessness, I don't know anything about it. The more interesting question is: are the 10 000 primitives a subset of those commonly used in English? (If so, we are playing with a Simplified English.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:My attitude is rather consistent with Gödel's; I have outlined a proof that shows that no number of semantic primitives is enough to cover all meaning. That ''was'' the position to which I am responding, wasn't it? As for pointlessness, I don't know anything about it. The more interesting question is: are the 10 000 primitives a subset of those commonly used in English? (If so, we are playing with a Simplified English.)</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=Links=</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=References=</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=References=</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references /></div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><references /></div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=108762&oldid=prevGleki at 10:39, 25 September 20142014-09-25T10:39:00Z<p></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 10:39, 25 September 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l1">Line 1:</td>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{se inspekte/en}}</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{gl|lo si'o lo ralju brivla cu banzu|The idea that main verbs are enough}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{gl|lo si'o lo ralju brivla cu banzu|The idea that main verbs are enough}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l44">Line 44:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 45:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:My attitude is rather consistent with Gödel's; I have outlined a proof that shows that no number of semantic primitives is enough to cover all meaning. That ''was'' the position to which I am responding, wasn't it? As for pointlessness, I don't know anything about it. The more interesting question is: are the 10 000 primitives a subset of those commonly used in English? (If so, we are playing with a Simplified English.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:My attitude is rather consistent with Gödel's; I have outlined a proof that shows that no number of semantic primitives is enough to cover all meaning. That ''was'' the position to which I am responding, wasn't it? As for pointlessness, I don't know anything about it. The more interesting question is: are the 10 000 primitives a subset of those commonly used in English? (If so, we are playing with a Simplified English.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">{{See_also|GismuRant}}</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[jezrax|jezrax]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*[[jezrax|jezrax]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*:This is an interesting philosophical discussion, but it seems to me that it doesn't quite grapple with the issue. Let me try out a few points:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*:This is an interesting philosophical discussion, but it seems to me that it doesn't quite grapple with the issue. Let me try out a few points:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l55">Line 55:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** See [http://satirist.org/whale/1999/12/31.html this poem of mine]. The phrase "works and days" in this poem has a literal meaning, makes a literary reference, and makes two internal (punning) references. One can't translate such things in a way that keeps the full meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** See [http://satirist.org/whale/1999/12/31.html this poem of mine]. The phrase "works and days" in this poem has a literal meaning, makes a literary reference, and makes two internal (punning) references. One can't translate such things in a way that keeps the full meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Lojban's '''gismu''' are unquestionably capable of expressing everything that's pragmatically necessary.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Lojban's '''gismu''' are unquestionably capable of expressing everything that's pragmatically necessary.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* '</ins>''.i iuro'e uonai<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' Let me try to follow out my line of reasoning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''.i iuro'e uonai'' Let me try to follow out my line of reasoning.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The hypothesis that "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning" has two components. First, the ''gismu'' must cover "meaning space", whatever that is.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The hypothesis that "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning" has two components. First, the ''gismu'' must cover "meaning space", whatever that is.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** That's easy. ''broda'' covers meaning space all by itself.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** That's easy. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''broda<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' covers meaning space all by itself.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Second, it must be possible to combine ''gismu'' to indicate any meaning in meaning space.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Second, it must be possible to combine <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''gismu<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>'' to indicate any meaning in meaning space.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** That's hard. In fact, I think that my examples above show that it is false.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** That's hard. In fact, I think that my examples above show that it is false.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** This begs the question: What is the meaning space? Is it the set of all ideas that some person could, in principle, grasp? Is it the set of ideas that some one person could in principle communicate to some given other person? Is it the set of ideas that can in principle be communicated by a spoken language? Does it rely on the set of ideas that everyone can understand, that somebody can understand, that some person could in principle understand though in fact nobody living could? Et cetera.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** This begs the question: What is the meaning space? Is it the set of all ideas that some person could, in principle, grasp? Is it the set of ideas that some one person could in principle communicate to some given other person? Is it the set of ideas that can in principle be communicated by a spoken language? Does it rely on the set of ideas that everyone can understand, that somebody can understand, that some person could in principle understand though in fact nobody living could? Et cetera.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I rather think that meaning space itself is ill-defined.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** I rather think that meaning space itself is ill-defined.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*So I conclude that the Gismu Deep Structure hypothesis, "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning," is by itself neither true nor false; it is ill-defined (in the mathematician's sense). One needs to decide what it means before one can figure out whether it's true. (''zo'o'' <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Of </del>course, you can say that about anything in philosophy!)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*So I conclude that the Gismu Deep Structure hypothesis, "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning," is by itself neither true nor false; it is ill-defined (in the mathematician's sense). One needs to decide what it means before one can figure out whether it's true. (<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'''</ins>''zo'o''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''' of </ins>course, you can say that about anything in philosophy!)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==References<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">=</del>=</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Links=</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[GismuRant|gismu rant]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=References=</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=108761&oldid=prevGleki: /* Support and criticism */2014-09-25T10:36:06Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Support and criticism</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 10:36, 25 September 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{gl|lo si'o lo ralju brivla cu banzu|The idea that main verbs are enough}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{gl|lo si'o lo ralju brivla cu banzu|The idea that main verbs are enough}}</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The ''Brivla Deep Structure'' <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Hypothesis </del>is the hypothesis that the set of main [[verb]]s (mostly [[gismu]]) constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning. In other words: that the Lojban main verbs set is sufficient to express all possible predicates, without separate [[lujvo]], without tanru, and (here's the controversial bit) without [[preposition]]s. It presumes that all of these can be expressed with sentences (inordinately complex and ugly sentences, true) involving just the set of main verbs and cmavo (other than prepositions.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The ''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Ralju </ins>Brivla Deep Structure'' <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">hypothesis (RBDS hypothesis) </ins>is the hypothesis that the set of main [[verb]]s (mostly [[gismu]]) constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning. In other words: that the Lojban main verbs set is sufficient to express all possible predicates, without separate [[lujvo]], without tanru, and (here's the controversial bit) without [[preposition]]s. It presumes that all of these can be expressed with sentences (inordinately complex and ugly sentences, true) involving just the set of main verbs and cmavo (other than prepositions.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A more narrow hypothesis is called "''Gismu Deep Structure'' hypothesis" which states that not main verbs but only gismu (thus a subset of main verbs) are enough.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A more narrow hypothesis is called "''Gismu Deep Structure'' hypothesis" <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(GDS hypothesis) </ins>which states that not main verbs but only gismu (thus a subset of main verbs) are enough.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Support and criticism==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==Support and criticism==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*It is not known what the minimum set of main verbs is to be. It is nevertheless agreed that most verbs in this set are gismu.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*It is not known what the minimum set of main verbs is to be. It is nevertheless agreed that most verbs in this set are gismu.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Some Lojbanists (e.g. [[Adam]] and [[la nitcion|Nick]]) <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">thinked </del>most if not all prepositions in Lojban can be paraphrased as [[bridi]]: see [[''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha|''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha]].</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Some Lojbanists (e.g. [[Adam]] and [[la nitcion|Nick]]) <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">thought </ins>most if not all prepositions in Lojban can be paraphrased as [[bridi]]: see [[''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha|''pe'' necessary for ''sumti'' plus (BAI-type modifier) Gotcha]].</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] suggest ways in which lujvo (and by extension tanru) can be expressed as explicit combinations of gismu (''be lo<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>be lo nu<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>, '<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'je</del>'')</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] suggest ways in which lujvo (and by extension tanru) can be expressed as explicit combinations of gismu (<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'</ins>''be lo, be lo nu, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">je</ins>''')<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* most [[fu'ivla]] can be mostly (messily and verbosely) described in terms of pure Lojban, or at the very worst, foisted onto <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>cmene<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* most [[fu'ivla]] can be mostly (messily and verbosely) described in terms of pure Lojban, or at the very worst, foisted onto <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[</ins>cmene<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]].</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==History==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==History==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The hypothesis is probably the inception of [[hardliners|hardlinerism]]; it proposes that much of Lojban grammar and semantics can be reduced to a simpler core. It was first formulated explicitly (unsurprisingly) by [[User: Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]], in his lujvo papers<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00024.html</ref><ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00013.html</ref>which formulated [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]]. However, it is implicit in the very existence of the cmavo <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>[[ta'u|ta'u]]<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</del>, which certainly predates him.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The hypothesis is probably the inception of [[hardliners|hardlinerism]]; it proposes that much of Lojban grammar and semantics can be reduced to a simpler core. It was first formulated explicitly (unsurprisingly) by [[User: Nick Nicholas|Nick Nicholas]], in his lujvo papers<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00024.html</ref><ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00013.html</ref><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </ins>which formulated [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]]. However, it is implicit in the very existence of the cmavo [[ta'u|ta'u]], which certainly predates him.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>"Deep Structure" is [[la nitcion|Nick's]] allusion to Generative Grammar, particularly in its earlier, explicitly transformational form. The implication is specifically that other facets of Lojban grammar can be explicitly derived from this "Deep Structure", which is semantically primary.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>"Deep Structure" is [[la nitcion|Nick's]] allusion to Generative Grammar, particularly in its earlier, explicitly transformational form. The implication is specifically that other facets of Lojban grammar can be explicitly derived from this "Deep Structure", which is semantically primary.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:You're right, of course. This isn't so much a reason to do anything different, as a underlying motivation for why certain things are already being done.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:You're right, of course. This isn't so much a reason to do anything different, as a underlying motivation for why certain things are already being done.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[xod]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:If 1350 primitives (times however many places) are "enough to express all meaning", why is that number special? Suppose there are 10 000 different sumti places. Why is 10 000 enough primitives but 10 too few? Such a statement means that the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ACTUAL number </del>of primitives in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">REALITY </del>is some number between 10 and 10 000! Who is prepared to make that claim?</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:If 1350 primitives (times however many places) are "enough to express all meaning", why is that number special? Suppose there are 10 000 different sumti places. Why is 10 000 enough primitives but 10 too few? Such a statement means that the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u>actual</u> number </ins>of primitives in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"><u>reality</u> </ins>is some number between 10 and 10 000! Who is prepared to make that claim?</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[Adam|Adam]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***[[Adam|Adam]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:Of course the actual gismu list is not minimal. There are many gismu which can paraphrased in terms of other gismu. You can't really tell whether any particular set of gismu is minimal, because it's always possible that you overlooked some paraphrase, or that you cut some [[malglico|malglico]] corner in reducing the list. Also, there's always a large number of concepts which need [[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]]. Still, the gismu list appears sufficient for covering the vast majority of semantic space.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>***:Of course the actual gismu list is not minimal. There are many gismu which can paraphrased in terms of other gismu. You can't really tell whether any particular set of gismu is minimal, because it's always possible that you overlooked some paraphrase, or that you cut some [[malglico|malglico]] corner in reducing the list. Also, there's always a large number of concepts which need [[fu'ivla|fu'ivla]]. Still, the gismu list appears sufficient for covering the vast majority of semantic space.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==References==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>==References==</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=108758&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page ralju Brivla Deep Structure to ralju brivla deep structure2014-09-25T10:25:44Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/papri/ralju_Brivla_Deep_Structure" class="mw-redirect" title="ralju Brivla Deep Structure">ralju Brivla Deep Structure</a> to <a href="/papri/ralju_brivla_deep_structure" title="ralju brivla deep structure">ralju brivla deep structure</a></p>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=98874&oldid=prevConversion script: Conversion script moved page Ralju Brivla Deep Structure to ralju Brivla Deep Structure: Converting page titles to lowercase2014-06-30T08:15:52Z<p>Conversion script moved page <a href="/papri/Ralju_Brivla_Deep_Structure" class="mw-redirect" title="Ralju Brivla Deep Structure">Ralju Brivla Deep Structure</a> to <a href="/papri/ralju_Brivla_Deep_Structure" class="mw-redirect" title="ralju Brivla Deep Structure">ralju Brivla Deep Structure</a>: Converting page titles to lowercase</p>
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</table>Conversion scripthttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=94312&oldid=prevGleki at 08:49, 28 April 20142014-04-28T08:49:53Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralju_brivla_deep_structure&diff=94311&oldid=prevGleki: /* Discussion */2014-04-28T08:49:25Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Discussion</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****[[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:The theory, which may or may not be trivially false, is not as important as the ideology:</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:The theory, which may or may not be trivially false, is not as important as the ideology:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#it is not a futile or unilluminating endeavour to find GDS's for concepts (hence, lujvo, rather than fu'ivla, whenever possible);</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>#it is not a futile or unilluminating endeavour to find GDS's for concepts (hence, lujvo, rather than fu'ivla, whenever possible);</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#it is possible to disambiguate concepts entirely within Lojban (hence, disambiguation of candidate tanru senses through GDS, and appeal to such disambiguation in seljvajvo)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>#it is possible to disambiguate concepts entirely within Lojban (hence, disambiguation of candidate tanru senses through GDS, and appeal to such disambiguation in seljvajvo)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>#it is possible to understand Lojban grammar and semantics by using a common core of Lojban (i.e. the relation between fi'e and finti is not accidental or irrelevant, but on the contrary formalisable.)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">****</ins>#it is possible to understand Lojban grammar and semantics by using a common core of Lojban (i.e. the relation between fi'e and finti is not accidental or irrelevant, but on the contrary formalisable.)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:Your attitude to this, as with hardlinerism in general, is "it is not possible for all conceivable cases, therefore it is futile." My attitude is "it is possible for just enough cases to make it a worthwhile pursuit." And indeed, <u>that pursuit motivates my interest in Lojban</u>. Wittgenstein passed over in silence whereof he could not speak; that doesn't mean he thought he had been wasting his time. (Actually, maybe he did; he was weird like that. I don't have to. :-) You know, maybe one day I will do the ''Tractatus'' in Lojban.) Similarly, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem proved that Bertrand Russell's attempt to formulate an internally consistent theory of mathematics in the ''Principia Mathematica'' could not cover everything, because paradoxes are still possible. It did <u>not</u> prove that mathematical logic is pointless.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:Your attitude to this, as with hardlinerism in general, is "it is not possible for all conceivable cases, therefore it is futile." My attitude is "it is possible for just enough cases to make it a worthwhile pursuit." And indeed, <u>that pursuit motivates my interest in Lojban</u>. Wittgenstein passed over in silence whereof he could not speak; that doesn't mean he thought he had been wasting his time. (Actually, maybe he did; he was weird like that. I don't have to. :-) You know, maybe one day I will do the ''Tractatus'' in Lojban.) Similarly, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem proved that Bertrand Russell's attempt to formulate an internally consistent theory of mathematics in the ''Principia Mathematica'' could not cover everything, because paradoxes are still possible. It did <u>not</u> prove that mathematical logic is pointless.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:I'm reminded of the Neogrammarians here. The neogrammarians, with typical Teutonic rigour, argued that ''all'' linguistic change was regular. They were wrong factually. But they were very right methodologically: you only throw your hands up in the air, and say that an instance of language change is irregular, when you've made damn sure you've exhausted all regular possibilities. Otherwise, you're not doing historical linguistics.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>****:I'm reminded of the Neogrammarians here. The neogrammarians, with typical Teutonic rigour, argued that ''all'' linguistic change was regular. They were wrong factually. But they were very right methodologically: you only throw your hands up in the air, and say that an instance of language change is irregular, when you've made damn sure you've exhausted all regular possibilities. Otherwise, you're not doing historical linguistics.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This is an interesting philosophical discussion, but it seems to me that it doesn't quite grapple with the issue. Let me try out a few points:</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*[[jezrax|jezrax]]:</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*:</ins>This is an interesting philosophical discussion, but it seems to me that it doesn't quite grapple with the issue. Let me try out a few points:</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* People can grasp meanings that are not expressible in natural language.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* People can grasp meanings that are not expressible in natural language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The expression on somebody's face can be described, but the description doesn't convey its full meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** The expression on somebody's face can be described, but the description doesn't convey its full meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Every natural language can express meanings that are unavailable in other languages.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* Every natural language can express meanings that are unavailable in other languages.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** Try to fully explain the German idea of ''Gemütlichkeit'' in another language. You can get close, but you can never nail it.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** Try to fully explain the German idea of ''Gemütlichkeit'' in another language. You can get close, but you can never nail it.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** See [http://satirist.org/whale/1999/12/31.html this poem of mine]. The phrase "works and days" in this poem has a literal meaning, makes a literary reference, and makes two internal (punning) references. One can't translate such things in a way that keeps the full meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** See [http://satirist.org/whale/1999/12/31.html this poem of mine]. The phrase "works and days" in this poem has a literal meaning, makes a literary reference, and makes two internal (punning) references. One can't translate such things in a way that keeps the full meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Lojban's '''gismu''' are unquestionably capable of expressing everything that's pragmatically necessary.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* Lojban's '''gismu''' are unquestionably capable of expressing everything that's pragmatically necessary.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''.i iuro'e uonai'' Let me try to follow out my line of reasoning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''.i iuro'e uonai'' Let me try to follow out my line of reasoning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* The hypothesis that "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning" has two components. First, the ''gismu'' must cover "meaning space", whatever that is.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* The hypothesis that "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning" has two components. First, the ''gismu'' must cover "meaning space", whatever that is.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** That's easy. ''broda'' covers meaning space all by itself.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** That's easy. ''broda'' covers meaning space all by itself.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Second, it must be possible to combine ''gismu'' to indicate any meaning in meaning space.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* Second, it must be possible to combine ''gismu'' to indicate any meaning in meaning space.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** That's hard. In fact, I think that my examples above show that it is false.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** That's hard. In fact, I think that my examples above show that it is false.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This begs the question: What is the meaning space? Is it the set of all ideas that some person could, in principle, grasp? Is it the set of ideas that some one person could in principle communicate to some given other person? Is it the set of ideas that can in principle be communicated by a spoken language? Does it rely on the set of ideas that everyone can understand, that somebody can understand, that some person could in principle understand though in fact nobody living could? Et cetera.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>* This begs the question: What is the meaning space? Is it the set of all ideas that some person could, in principle, grasp? Is it the set of ideas that some one person could in principle communicate to some given other person? Is it the set of ideas that can in principle be communicated by a spoken language? Does it rely on the set of ideas that everyone can understand, that somebody can understand, that some person could in principle understand though in fact nobody living could? Et cetera.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I rather think that meaning space itself is ill-defined.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>** I rather think that meaning space itself is ill-defined.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>So I conclude that the Gismu Deep Structure hypothesis, "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning," is by itself neither true nor false; it is ill-defined (in the mathematician's sense). One needs to decide what it means before one can figure out whether it's true. (''zo'o'' Of course, you can say that about anything in philosophy!)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>So I conclude that the Gismu Deep Structure hypothesis, "gismu constitute a complete vector space for the expression of all meaning," is by itself neither true nor false; it is ill-defined (in the mathematician's sense). One needs to decide what it means before one can figure out whether it's true. (''zo'o'' Of course, you can say that about anything in philosophy!)</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*</ins>A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>But I also think that the GDS hypothesis is false under reasonable assumptions about the meaning space. English speakers know when to say "a" and when to say "the" and what they both mean, but I defy anyone to write a complete explanation, of any length, in any language, of what exactly the two words mean. Russian speakers know when to use perfective aspect and when to use imperfective and what they both mean, but again, I defy anyone to make a complete explanation. A language community may come up with a word for any concept they can agree on; I don't see a guarantee that that concept must be even comprehensible to outsiders, much less exactly expressible in an outside language.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>A more general question is whether Lojban has the same level of expressiveness as a natural language. To me it seems to. It loses expressiveness by having a small vocabulary (translate "we dawdled on the scree"), but it gains by precision and flexibility.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''mi'e [[jezrax|jezrax]]''</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
</table>Gleki