https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&feed=atom&action=historyralcku - Revision history2024-03-29T08:05:49ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=96203&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "Jordan DeLong djorden." to "la .djorden."2014-06-08T10:54:08Z<p>Text replace - "<a href="/index.php?title=Jordan_DeLong_djorden.&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="Jordan DeLong djorden. (page does not exist)">Jordan DeLong djorden.</a>" to "<a href="/papri/Jordan_DeLong" class="mw-redirect" title="Jordan DeLong">la .djorden.</a>"</p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># maldzena reservations about the virtuality of a cukta can be overcome by considering the modern meaning of the term "document", and considering a cukta as a collection of documents.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># maldzena reservations about the virtuality of a cukta can be overcome by considering the modern meaning of the term "document", and considering a cukta as a collection of documents.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I don't think this addresses either the virtuality of cukta or whether the web is a cukta. Virtuality of cukta is clearly allowed in the ma'oste and never has been in debate (the word was specifically intended to be usable for ebooks). --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I don't think this addresses either the virtuality of cukta or whether the web is a cukta. Virtuality of cukta is clearly allowed in the ma'oste and never has been in debate (the word was specifically intended to be usable for ebooks). --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The gismu definition does not refer to the cohesiveness often considered necessary for "books".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The gismu definition does not refer to the cohesiveness often considered necessary for "books".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The gismu definition is "book". --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The gismu definition is "book". --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Is a "single website" a cukta? Can a cukta be in hypertext form and retain its status as a single cukta? Is a Wiki any sort of cukta? Beware of importing the malglico semantics of "book"!</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Is a "single website" a cukta? Can a cukta be in hypertext form and retain its status as a single cukta? Is a Wiki any sort of cukta? Beware of importing the malglico semantics of "book"!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The semantics of book define what cukta is. We have little else to go on. Some websites may be books (such as the online copy of the refgram); most are not (especially all these modern flash-based ones, etc), and thus are not cukta. However, this has nothing to do with whether the web as a whole is a book, and thus is beside the point. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The semantics of book define what cukta is. We have little else to go on. Some websites may be books (such as the online copy of the refgram); most are not (especially all these modern flash-based ones, etc), and thus are not cukta. However, this has nothing to do with whether the web as a whole is a book, and thus is beside the point. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Different websites are often linked together, associatively and with the cohesion of meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Different websites are often linked together, associatively and with the cohesion of meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** They also often are not. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** They also often are not. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** It may not always be clear, but that doesn't help your argument. You need it to *never* be clear, and the truth is that it usually is. -mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** It may not always be clear, but that doesn't help your argument. You need it to *never* be clear, and the truth is that it usually is. -mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** You discuss cukta as though its use is the sole complaint. Where is the justification for ralju? (Not that I'll agree with it, you just ought to be comprehensive)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** You discuss cukta as though its use is the sole complaint. Where is the justification for ralju? (Not that I'll agree with it, you just ought to be comprehensive)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|la xod]] on [[IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|la xod]] on [[IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">djorden</del>.<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong </del>djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|la </ins>.djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=96174&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "xod" to "la xod"2014-06-08T10:50:12Z<p>Text replace - "<a href="/papri/User:Xod" title="User:Xod">xod</a>" to "<a href="/papri/User:Xod" title="User:Xod">la xod</a>"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td>
<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 10:50, 8 June 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l36">Line 36:</td>
<td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 36:</td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|xod]] on [[IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">la </ins>xod]] on [[IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=90852&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: ralcku to ralcku without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:51:35Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_ralcku&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: ralcku (page does not exist)">jbocre: ralcku</a> to <a href="/papri/ralcku" title="ralcku">ralcku</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: ([a-z])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="1" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:51, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-notice" lang="en"><div class="mw-diff-empty">(No difference)</div>
</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=90116&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"2014-03-23T14:45:53Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: ([A-K])" to "$1"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:45, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l6">Line 6:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># maldzena reservations about the virtuality of a cukta can be overcome by considering the modern meaning of the term "document", and considering a cukta as a collection of documents.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># maldzena reservations about the virtuality of a cukta can be overcome by considering the modern meaning of the term "document", and considering a cukta as a collection of documents.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I don't think this addresses either the virtuality of cukta or whether the web is a cukta. Virtuality of cukta is clearly allowed in the ma'oste and never has been in debate (the word was specifically intended to be usable for ebooks). --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I don't think this addresses either the virtuality of cukta or whether the web is a cukta. Virtuality of cukta is clearly allowed in the ma'oste and never has been in debate (the word was specifically intended to be usable for ebooks). --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The gismu definition does not refer to the cohesiveness often considered necessary for "books".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The gismu definition does not refer to the cohesiveness often considered necessary for "books".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The gismu definition is "book". --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The gismu definition is "book". --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Is a "single website" a cukta? Can a cukta be in hypertext form and retain its status as a single cukta? Is a Wiki any sort of cukta? Beware of importing the malglico semantics of "book"!</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Is a "single website" a cukta? Can a cukta be in hypertext form and retain its status as a single cukta? Is a Wiki any sort of cukta? Beware of importing the malglico semantics of "book"!</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The semantics of book define what cukta is. We have little else to go on. Some websites may be books (such as the online copy of the refgram); most are not (especially all these modern flash-based ones, etc), and thus are not cukta. However, this has nothing to do with whether the web as a whole is a book, and thus is beside the point. --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** The semantics of book define what cukta is. We have little else to go on. Some websites may be books (such as the online copy of the refgram); most are not (especially all these modern flash-based ones, etc), and thus are not cukta. However, this has nothing to do with whether the web as a whole is a book, and thus is beside the point. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Different websites are often linked together, associatively and with the cohesion of meaning.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Different websites are often linked together, associatively and with the cohesion of meaning.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** They also often are not. --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** They also often are not. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** It may not always be clear, but that doesn't help your argument. You need it to *never* be clear, and the truth is that it usually is. -mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** It may not always be clear, but that doesn't help your argument. You need it to *never* be clear, and the truth is that it usually is. -mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** You discuss cukta as though its use is the sole complaint. Where is the justification for ralju? (Not that I'll agree with it, you just ought to be comprehensive)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** You discuss cukta as though its use is the sole complaint. Where is the justification for ralju? (Not that I'll agree with it, you just ought to be comprehensive)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn't make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically, can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|xod]] on [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''This page grew out of a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|xod]] on [[IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki is an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness. An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles, but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends and one begins, but on the other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept of when you're leaving one website to go to another. A single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there is still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems to be related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say the web is more of a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even the web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half of what we covered; xod probably has a log. --mi'e mark''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=88523&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: m" to "m"2014-03-23T12:16:45Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: m" to "m"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:16, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=88046&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: s" to "s"2014-03-23T12:13:34Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: s" to "s"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 12:13, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>You know, unrelated to its fitness or unfitness as a word for the WWW, ''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for the ''metaphorical'' sense of the word "bible" in English, as in "''The Art of Computer Programming'' is the bible of Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really the best book there is on baking; it's my bible in the kitchen." ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with the expected [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] place structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed by this whole www-is-a-book thing. --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=86996&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"2014-03-23T11:42:50Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: f" to "f"</p>
<table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface">
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:42, 23 March 2014</td>
</tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l22">Line 22:</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[jbocre: mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** I disagree. If I go to my browser's location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[jbocre: mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same ''file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=86901&oldid=prevGleki: Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"2014-03-23T11:39:25Z<p>Text replace - "jbocre: c" to "c"</p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 11:39, 23 March 2014</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Irrelevant, low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">jbocre: </del>cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* This is not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer to by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity. If HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>** ''It's not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention, but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion. --xod''</div></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=75870&oldid=prevGleki at 17:09, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:09:26Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>''<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">su</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">oremei jinga me la kandors�is.</del>''</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>'''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ralcku:</ins>''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">' a lujvo for the web?</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This is an election method that could work for next year's LLG election, satisfying </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">properties that the members want the election to have: it elects only candidates that are approved by the majority, unless it has to choose more to fill the minimum number of slots; it allows voters to express that they prefer some candidates over others without voting against the others; it allows tie votes anywhere on the ballot. It is described first in Lojban, then in English.</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">==== Is </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">web a "cukta"? ====</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">-------</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># maldzena reservations about the virtuality of a cukta can be overcome by considering the modern meaning of the term "document", and considering a cukta as a collection of documents.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i di</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e tadji le nu so</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">imei prenu cu cuxna so</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i jinga be lo nunturni</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** I don</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t think this addresses either the virtuality of cukta or whether the web is a cukta. Virtuality of cukta is clearly allowed in the ma</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">oste and never has been in debate (the word was specifically intended to be usable for ebooks). --mi</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i roda poi cuxna cu benji pa cuxna liste cei cuxste poi porsi fi le te cuxna zi'e poi skicu leidu'u da zmanei makau makau i le te cuxna cu se cmima ro le jivna e pa xanri jivna no'u la nonjinga zi'e poi sinxa lesi'o cuxna node i da'o curmi lenu da e de dunli xymoi lo porsi kei poi skicu ledu'u dunynei da de itu'e da'o go da poi cuxna cu djica lenu de poi jivna na jinga gi ei le cuxste po da skicu ledu'u da zmanei la nonjinga de i go da na jinvi tu'a de gi ei le cuxste po da skicu ledu'u da dunynei la nonjinga de tu'u</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># The gismu definition does not refer to the cohesiveness often considered necessary for "books".</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i tu</del>'e <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">da'o da poi cuxste de poi jivna zo'u go de na'e cmima le porsi po da gi le cuxna cu dunynei la nonjinga de i go la nonjinga na'e cmima le porsi po da gi le cuxna cu zmanei rodi poi jivna la nonjinga</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** The gismu definition is "book". --mi</ins>'e <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ni'o da'o le la kandors�is tadji pe sepi'o le la tidymn remei porsi tadji poi djine rivbi cu pruce le cuxste lo jinga porsi di'e</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># Is a "single website" a cukta? Can a cukta be in hypertext form and retain its status as a single cukta? Is a Wiki any sort of cukta? Beware of importing the malglico semantics of "book"!</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ni'o da poi jivna ja me la nonjinga cei brodo de poi brodo zo'u ca</del>'e <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">le ni da jinga fi de cu du li ni'e ni ce'u zmanei da de vu'u ni'e ni ce'u zmanei de da</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** The semantics of book define what cukta is. We have little else to go on. Some websites may be books (such as the online copy of the refgram); most are not (especially all these modern flash-based ones, etc), and thus are not cukta. However, this has nothing to do with whether the web as a whole is a book, and thus is beside the point. --mi</ins>'e <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i da'o ko porsi le'i ni jinga kei ledu'u da lidne jo zmadu de i porsi pilno lu'a le'i ni jinga kei lenu zbasu le jinga porsi i mu'a go le ni ko'e jinga fi ko'i cu zmarai gi ko'e lidne ko'i le jinga porsi i da'o go da poi ni jinga cu se natfe le ca porsi gi ko toljundi da i mu'a tu'e ko'a jinga fi ko'i ice'obo ko'i jinga fi ko'a ice'obo ko'a jinga fi ko'e tu'u ijo toljundi ledu'u ko'a jinga fi ko'e kei ki'u lenu ko'e pu lidne ko'a</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># Different websites are often linked together, associatively and with the cohesion of meaning.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i le te pruce cu jinga porsi fi le</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i brodo i go le jinga porsi cu se nenri lo dunli tu'omoi poi vajni gi ei lo pu se cuxna prenu cu jdice le lidne</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** They also often are not. --mi</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i go su'oxa jivna cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro le su'examoi jivna cu jinga</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># The linking of different hypertext documents follows the same behavior as linking to other locations in the same file, or other files written by the same author and residing on the same server. Whereas there is a conceptual difference between flipping a page in a book, and closing its cover and opening a different book, there is no conceptual distinction between following a link to a different location in the same file, and visiting a different "website".</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i </del>go <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">su</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ere jivna cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro le su</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ecimoi nalxanri jivna cu jinga</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** I disagree. If I </ins>go <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">to my browser</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s location box (or equivalent thereof) and manually input a url to some location, it is analogous to closing and opening a new cukta. Furthermore, clicking on links which go to a different "website" aren't like turning pages at all; the only linkage which is similar to turning pages is the kind of linkage found in...online books! (Such as the Next buttons and chapter listing in the online refgram). It makes sense to assume that the definition of cukta was intended to include these, but not anything else. (And I believe [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] indicated that such was the intent of the word on the [[jbocre: mailing list|mailing list]] by saying "ralcku" would be a [[jbocre: figurative lujvo|figurative lujvo]]) --mi</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">i go lo jivna su</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ocimei je su</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">omumei cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro ra jinga</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"># Therefore the semantic distinction between different "websites" is not always conceptually clear. Hyperlinked documents can be considered the same document, albeit not the same </ins>''<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">file''. Authorship is the only difference between a single work, and a compiled, annotated work. However, a cukta can have multiple authors, and be created over time.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>-<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">------</del></div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** It may not always be clear, but that doesn't help your argument. You need it to *never* be clear, and the truth is that it usually is. </ins>-<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** You discuss cukta as though its use is the sole complaint. Where is the justification for ralju? (Not that I'll agree with it, you just ought to be comprehensive)</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Each voter casts a ballot giving their preferences among the candidates</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">plus a hypothetical candidate "Nobody". Voters are allowed to give equal ranks to candidates if they have no preference between them. If a voter considers a candidate unacceptable, he should rank him below Nobody; if a voter wishes to abstain with regard to a candidate, he should rank him equal with Nobody</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Irrelevant</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">low-level discussion of hypertext protocols and TCP does not belong on this page</ins>.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">An unspecified rank </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">assumed </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">be tied with Nobody</del>. If <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Nobody</del>'s <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">rank is unspecified</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">it is below all ranked candidates</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* This </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not an argument, it is simply an unfair dismissal of an opposing viewpoint. HTTP (== the web) is just a datni xelbe'i which we may desire to refer </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">by name (whether through a proper cmene, which I favor, or a fu'ivla or a lujvo), due to its popularity</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> </ins>If <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">HTTP isn't important to the web, then gopher, nntp, ftp, irc, and any other protocol for information transfer used on the internet (or even elsewhere!) must also define "webs" (and under your claims, books ([[jbocre: cukta|(cukta]]. --mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden.|Jordan DeLong djorden.]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">** ''It</ins>'s <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">not an "unfair dismissal" but an attempt to frame the limits of debate to exclude irrelevant tangents which seem relevant to those not paying attention</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but in fact completely miss the essentials of the discussion</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--xod''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The votes are counted by Condorcet</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s method</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">using Tideman</del>'<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">s Ranked Pairs method to avoid cycles</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">This process goes as follows</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*** Merely restating that you think it is irrelevant doesn</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">t make it any less relevant. Because HTTP defines "the web", it is certainly the heart of the issue: Can a data transfer protocol (more specifically</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">can *this* data transfer protocol) be considered a cukta (book) in a non-figurative sense? -- mi</ins>'<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong djorden</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Each pair </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">candidates </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">considered individually</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">For two candidates</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">A </del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">B</del>, the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">margin of victory </del>of A <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">over B </del>is <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">defined </del>to be the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">number </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">voters who rank A above B minus </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">number </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">voters who rank B above A</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''This page grew out </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a rather productive discussion between [[User:Mark Shoulson e|Mark Shoulson e]] and [[User:xod|xod]] on [[jbocre: IRC|IRC]] today. To me, I still can't see considering the web as a whole to be '''cukta'''. I ''can'' consider individual websites to be so, even dynamically generated ones (amazon.com is one big catalog, this wiki </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">an ever-changing manuscript, etc). But to me, a book does require a certain amount of cohesiveness</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> An encyclopedia may be a bunch of mostly unrelated articles</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but they were bound together by someone for a particular reason, for the purpose of being one work. Even if you consider the hyperlinking that goes on to bind things together that way (and I don't, see further), transitivity doesn't apply, at least not that far. Xod has a point that it is not always clear where one website ends </ins>and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">one begins</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">but on </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">other hand it ''usually'' is. There is generally a fair concept </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">when you're leaving one website to go to another. </ins>A <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">single site isn't necessarily confined to a single domain (and vice-versa), but there </ins>is <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">still a certain cohesiveness that's there, even given hyperlinks to the outside. It seems </ins>to be <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">related to being controlled by a single entity, but even that isn't entirely it. I would say </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">web is more </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">a library than a book. Xod disagrees, claiming that the hyperlinking makes it one large work, all annotating each other; clicking a hyperlink is as easy as turning a page in a book... and in the web, could take you anywhere. I think that hyperlinking does not make it a single work, even </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">web were completely topologically connected (which it isn't). Whew. I'm not even saying half </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">what we covered; xod probably has a log</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"> --mi'e mark''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The election result will be an ordering of all the candidates. The margins of victory are sorted from largest to smallest</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and they are considered in that order </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">determine </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">ordering. For example</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">if B beats C with </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">largest margin </del>of <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">victory</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">then B will be ranked above C </del>in the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">result. If a victory contradicts a part </del>of the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">order that has already been established, </del>it <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">is ignored</del>. <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">For example, if B </del> <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">beats C, then C beats A by a smaller margin, then A beats B by a smaller margin, the result that A beats B is ignored because B is already ranked above A</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">You know</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">unrelated </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">its fitness or unfitness as a word for </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">WWW</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''ralcku'' would make a really excellent lujvo for </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''metaphorical'' sense </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the word "bible" in English</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">as </ins>in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">"''The Art of Computer Programming'' is </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">bible </ins>of <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Computer Science" or "Yeah, that's really </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">best book there is on baking; </ins>it<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'s my bible in the kitchen</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">" </ins> <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]''</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The result is now an ordering of all </del>the <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">candidates, including "Nobody". If there is a tie in a crucial </del>place<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, it should be determined </del>by a <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">tie</del>-<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">breaking vote cast by a designated person</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* I would prefer ''vajraicku'' (with </ins>the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">expected [[jbocre: seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] </ins>place <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">structure) if only because ''ralcku'' has already been permanently maimed </ins>by <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">this whole www-is-</ins>a-<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">book thing</ins>. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--mi'e [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong djorden</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">|Jordan DeLong djorden</ins>.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]]</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If there are at least 6 candidates who rank above Nobody, then the top 6 are elected</del>.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If there are between 3 and 6 candidates who rank above Nobody, then all of them are elected.</del></div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div> </div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">If there are fewer than 3 candidates who rank above Nobody, then the top 3 actual candidates are elected</del>.</div></td><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-added"></td></tr>
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</table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ralcku&diff=65321&oldid=prevGleki at 17:06, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:06:10Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
''su'oremei jinga me la kandors�is.''<br />
<br />
This is an election method that could work for next year's LLG election, satisfying the properties that the members want the election to have: it elects only candidates that are approved by the majority, unless it has to choose more to fill the minimum number of slots; it allows voters to express that they prefer some candidates over others without voting against the others; it allows tie votes anywhere on the ballot. It is described first in Lojban, then in English.<br />
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i di'e tadji le nu so'imei prenu cu cuxna so'i jinga be lo nunturni<br />
<br />
i roda poi cuxna cu benji pa cuxna liste cei cuxste poi porsi fi le te cuxna zi'e poi skicu leidu'u da zmanei makau makau i le te cuxna cu se cmima ro le jivna e pa xanri jivna no'u la nonjinga zi'e poi sinxa lesi'o cuxna node i da'o curmi lenu da e de dunli xymoi lo porsi kei poi skicu ledu'u dunynei da de itu'e da'o go da poi cuxna cu djica lenu de poi jivna na jinga gi ei le cuxste po da skicu ledu'u da zmanei la nonjinga de i go da na jinvi tu'a de gi ei le cuxste po da skicu ledu'u da dunynei la nonjinga de tu'u<br />
<br />
i tu'e da'o da poi cuxste de poi jivna zo'u go de na'e cmima le porsi po da gi le cuxna cu dunynei la nonjinga de i go la nonjinga na'e cmima le porsi po da gi le cuxna cu zmanei rodi poi jivna la nonjinga<br />
<br />
ni'o da'o le la kandors�is tadji pe sepi'o le la tidymn remei porsi tadji poi djine rivbi cu pruce le cuxste lo jinga porsi di'e<br />
<br />
ni'o da poi jivna ja me la nonjinga cei brodo de poi brodo zo'u ca'e le ni da jinga fi de cu du li ni'e ni ce'u zmanei da de vu'u ni'e ni ce'u zmanei de da<br />
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i da'o ko porsi le'i ni jinga kei ledu'u da lidne jo zmadu de i porsi pilno lu'a le'i ni jinga kei lenu zbasu le jinga porsi i mu'a go le ni ko'e jinga fi ko'i cu zmarai gi ko'e lidne ko'i le jinga porsi i da'o go da poi ni jinga cu se natfe le ca porsi gi ko toljundi da i mu'a tu'e ko'a jinga fi ko'i ice'obo ko'i jinga fi ko'a ice'obo ko'a jinga fi ko'e tu'u ijo toljundi ledu'u ko'a jinga fi ko'e kei ki'u lenu ko'e pu lidne ko'a<br />
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i le te pruce cu jinga porsi fi le'i brodo i go le jinga porsi cu se nenri lo dunli tu'omoi poi vajni gi ei lo pu se cuxna prenu cu jdice le lidne<br />
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i go su'oxa jivna cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro le su'examoi jivna cu jinga<br />
<br />
i go su'ere jivna cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro le su'ecimoi nalxanri jivna cu jinga<br />
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i go lo jivna su'ocimei je su'omumei cu lidne la nonjinga gi ro ra jinga<br />
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Each voter casts a ballot giving their preferences among the candidates, plus a hypothetical candidate "Nobody". Voters are allowed to give equal ranks to candidates if they have no preference between them. If a voter considers a candidate unacceptable, he should rank him below Nobody; if a voter wishes to abstain with regard to a candidate, he should rank him equal with Nobody.<br />
<br />
An unspecified rank is assumed to be tied with Nobody. If Nobody's rank is unspecified, it is below all ranked candidates.<br />
<br />
The votes are counted by Condorcet's method, using Tideman's Ranked Pairs method to avoid cycles. This process goes as follows.<br />
<br />
Each pair of candidates is considered individually. For two candidates, A and B, the margin of victory of A over B is defined to be the number of voters who rank A above B minus the number of voters who rank B above A.<br />
<br />
The election result will be an ordering of all the candidates. The margins of victory are sorted from largest to smallest, and they are considered in that order to determine the ordering. For example, if B beats C with the largest margin of victory, then B will be ranked above C in the result. If a victory contradicts a part of the order that has already been established, it is ignored. For example, if B beats C, then C beats A by a smaller margin, then A beats B by a smaller margin, the result that A beats B is ignored because B is already ranked above A.<br />
<br />
The result is now an ordering of all the candidates, including "Nobody". If there is a tie in a crucial place, it should be determined by a tie-breaking vote cast by a designated person.<br />
<br />
If there are at least 6 candidates who rank above Nobody, then the top 6 are elected.<br />
<br />
If there are between 3 and 6 candidates who rank above Nobody, then all of them are elected.<br />
<br />
If there are fewer than 3 candidates who rank above Nobody, then the top 3 actual candidates are elected.</div>Gleki