Difference between revisions of "prior usage and discussions of vo'a"

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ckape balvi morji barna
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'''<- [[jbocre: Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong|Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong]]'''
  
.i bumru farna cfipu temci
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Times issue of the scope of ''vo'a'' has come up in the past:
  
.i fasnu frica sidju morna
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''Inspired by [[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]]'s dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-) ''
  
.i jesni krefu fanta pemci
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(In the following, I highlight defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance vo'a, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: ''le catra be vo'a'' as suicide, or ''.abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a'' where vo'a=by are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to vo'a refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.)
 +
 
 +
Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of vo'a. Jay?) So this is not complete.
 +
 
 +
Discussion:
 +
 
 +
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9008/msg00016.html : John Cowan: at the time, accepting vo'a as long-distance, I think
 +
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00015.html : Lojbab: long-distance (I think)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00077.html : X: long-distance (agreeing with Y's hunch) [[jbocre: the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine|the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine]]
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00063.html : Nick Nicholas: '''short'''-distance (!! I think I was arguing for a short distance default, back when vo'a was labile.)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00012.html : Colin Fine: '''non-comittal'''
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00031.html : Jorge Llambias: '''short'''-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00035.html : Lojbab: long-distance (in response to Jorge, with history of vo'a)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9507/msg00004.html : Lojbab: long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00063.html : Iain Alexander: long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html : Lojbab: long-distance
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 +
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  7:2:1
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 +
People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital:  3:2:1
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 +
Usage:
 +
 
 +
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9103/msg00023.html : Lojbab, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9011/msg00019.html : John Cowan (heheh), be vo'a, long-distance (i.e. x1 of main bridi, not of sumti selbri)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9112/msg00013.html : Nick Nicholas, ne vo'a and lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00052.html : Mark Shoulson, be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00094.html : Nick Nicholas, pe/po/be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html : Mark Shoulson, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00016.html : Colin Fine, du'u vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00030.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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 +
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00029.html : David Twery, ka vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html  : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
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 +
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00017.html : Andrew Smith, lenu vo'a, long-distance (I assume, since children are ordinarily washed by others)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00015.html , [http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00016.html] : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9309/msg00119.html : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a: long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9502/msg00056.html : Chris Bogart, be vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (but probably '''short'''-distance)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00135.html : And Rosta, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00076.html : Chris Bogart. lenu..be vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9510/msg00148.html : And Rosta, be fai voa, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00135.html : Don Wiggins, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9612/msg00011.html : And Rosta, nunybroda be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00055.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9804/msg00040.html : Lojbab, leni vo'a, long-distance
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 +
Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4
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 +
People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:0:1 (Lojbab, Shoulson, Fine have varied.)
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New Lojban list:
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Discussion:
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9108 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance (recanting '''short'''-distance -- which is how he remembered it, or what he read in [[jbocre: The Book|The Book]] if he didn't remember it)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9111 : Adam Raizen, '''short'''-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9113 : Lojbab, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9157 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9182 : And Rosta, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9303 : pc, record, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9463 : pc, record, long-distance
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Long:Short:Non-Commital:  6:1:0
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 +
People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital:  4:1:0
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Usage:
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Helsem:
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[[jbocre: I am excluding the original postings of Helsem's story, in favour of the aggregate posting [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995]]
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/538 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/869 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/877 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1079 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1081 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1093 : Michael Helsem, ge ... gi vo'a, '''short'''-distance? But no real nesting.
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1336 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1415 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1578 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1591 : Michael Helsem, ledu'u vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1628 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1748 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance (Possibly, but the sentence is a little opaque for me.)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1760 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995 : Michael Helsem (the short story):
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**le vo'a, long-distance;
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**be vo'a, long-distance;
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**be vo'a, long-distance;
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**le vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**levo'a, long-distance;
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**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**noi vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai lenu vo'a se xrani);
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**ge vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
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**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
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**poi.. ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
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**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2348 : Michael Helsem, poi vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2362 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383 : Michael Helsem, du'u vo'a, '''short'''-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2454 : Michael Helsem, po'u na'ebo vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2457 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (explicitly defending interpretation)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3143 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3150 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4270 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (I'm pretty sure that's how it was meant)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5093 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5622 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
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Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':
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Long:Short:Other:  43:2:4
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Non-Helsem:
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/514 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (the ''na'e'' should have been ''cu na'e'', so this should not involve nesting at all)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/893 : tsali, ledu'u... be vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (But, I personally think, logophoric instead.)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1070 : Spigot, leka... soi vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (because there should have been a ''kei'' there, so in fact there is no nesting)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1190 : Robin Turner, lenu... soi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (Gotcha! soi vo'a, of course, is treated as a fixed idiom)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1549 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, long-distance (which is why he got it right in the lessons and Nick didn't)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308 : Cyril Slobin, noi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate sentence)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4393 : Adam Raizen, cei to vo'a, long-distance (but grammatically anomalous context)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5489 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6463 : Bjoern Gohla, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6953 : Jorge Llambias, le vo'a, long-distance (whether it picks up one or both referents is being questioned, but that the reference is long-distance, and this is not a "book about itself", is not in doubt.)
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6956 : Lojbab, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6970 : xod, tu'a le vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7642 : Jorge Llambias, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8310 : Jorge Llambias, po'u le vo'a..., long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9005 : Adam Raizen, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9009 : Jorge Llambias, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9250 : Jorge Llambias, be vo'a, long-distance
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*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9351 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
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Not counting unintentionals.:
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Long:Short:Other: 11:2:3
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People consistently Long:Short:Other: 4:1:0 (Turner, Raizen, Llambias have been inconsistent, although the latter two are probably long-distance.)
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 +
Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.
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''Who is doing all this wonderful work? Thank you!''
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 +
mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]. For now, I'm done, and I'm going home. I doubt this actually proves much, but I'll polemicise another day...

Revision as of 17:09, 4 November 2013

<- Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong

Times issue of the scope of vo'a has come up in the past:

Inspired by Jay Kominek's dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-)

(In the following, I highlight defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance vo'a, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: le catra be vo'a as suicide, or .abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a where vo'a=by are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to vo'a refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.)

Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of vo'a. Jay?) So this is not complete.

Discussion:

Long:Short:Non-Commital: 7:2:1

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 3:2:1

Usage:

Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:0:1 (Lojbab, Shoulson, Fine have varied.)

New Lojban list:

Discussion:

Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:1:0

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 4:1:0

Usage:

Helsem:

[[jbocre: I am excluding the original postings of Helsem's story, in favour of the aggregate posting [2]]

    • le vo'a, long-distance;
    • be vo'a, long-distance;
    • be vo'a, long-distance;
    • le vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • levo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, ambiguous (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • noi vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai lenu vo'a se xrani);
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • ge vo'a, short-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
    • poi.. ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;

Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':

Long:Short:Other: 43:2:4

Non-Helsem:

Not counting unintentionals.:

Long:Short:Other: 11:2:3

People consistently Long:Short:Other: 4:1:0 (Turner, Raizen, Llambias have been inconsistent, although the latter two are probably long-distance.)

Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.

Who is doing all this wonderful work? Thank you!

mi'e nitcion. For now, I'm done, and I'm going home. I doubt this actually proves much, but I'll polemicise another day...