Difference between revisions of "prior usage and discussions of vo'a"

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The following is a collection of usage of '''vo'a''' as short scope and as long scope.
  
'''<- [[Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong|Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong]]'''
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It has only a historical interest.
  
Times issue of the scope of ''vo'a'' has come up in the past:
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Note that in modern Lojban '''vo'a''' is always long scope, i.e. it always refers to the first sumti of the current sentence (not [[bridi]]).
  
''Inspired by [[Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]]'s dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-) ''
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See also [[Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong]]
  
(In the following, I highlight defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance vo'a, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: ''le catra be vo'a'' as suicide, or ''.abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a'' where vo'a=by are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to vo'a refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.)
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=Times issue of the scope of '''vo'a''' has come up in the past=
 +
Inspired by [[Jay Kominek]]'s dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-)
  
Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of vo'a. Jay?) So this is not complete.
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In the following, defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance '''vo'a''' are highlighted, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: '''le catra '''be vo'a''' as suicide, or '''.abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a''' where '''vo'a'''=''by'' are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to '''vo'a''' refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.
 +
 
 +
Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of '''vo'a''' so this is not complete.
  
 
Discussion:
 
Discussion:
 
+
*John Cowan<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9008/msg00016.html</ref>: at the time, accepting vo'a as long-distance, I think
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9008/msg00016.html : John Cowan: at the time, accepting vo'a as long-distance, I think
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00015.html</ref>: long-distance (I think)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00015.html : Lojbab: long-distance (I think)
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*X<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00077.html</ref>: long-distance (agreeing with Y's hunch) [[the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine|the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine]]
 
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*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00063.html</ref>: <u>short</u>-distance (!! I think I was arguing for a short distance default, back when vo'a was labile.)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00077.html : X: long-distance (agreeing with Y's hunch) [[the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine|the email as preserved seems corrupt. X could be Nick Nicholas, Mark Shoulson, or Colin Fine]]
+
*Colin Fine<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00012.html</ref>: <u>non-comittal</u>
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00063.html : Nick Nicholas: '''short'''-distance (!! I think I was arguing for a short distance default, back when vo'a was labile.)
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00031.html</ref>: <u>short</u>-distance
 
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00035.html</ref>: long-distance (in response to Jorge, with history of vo'a)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00012.html : Colin Fine: '''non-comittal'''
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*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9507/msg00004.html</ref>: long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00031.html : Jorge Llambias: '''short'''-distance
+
*Iain Alexander<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00063.html</ref>: long-distance
 
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html</ref>: long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00035.html : Lojbab: long-distance (in response to Jorge, with history of vo'a)
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9507/msg00004.html : Lojbab: long-distance
 
 
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00063.html : Iain Alexander: long-distance
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html : Lojbab: long-distance
 
  
 
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  7:2:1
 
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  7:2:1
Line 32: Line 31:
  
 
Usage:
 
Usage:
 
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*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9103/msg00023.html</ref>: x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9103/msg00023.html : Lojbab, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
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*John Cowan (heheh)<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9011/msg00019.html</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance (i.e. x1 of main bridi, not of sumti selbri)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9011/msg00019.html : John Cowan (heheh), be vo'a, long-distance (i.e. x1 of main bridi, not of sumti selbri)
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*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9112/msg00013.html</ref>: ne vo'a and '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
 
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*Mark Shoulson<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00052.html</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9112/msg00013.html : Nick Nicholas, ne vo'a and lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00094.html</ref>: pe/po/'''be vo'a''', long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00052.html : Mark Shoulson, be vo'a, long-distance
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*Mark Shoulson<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', <u>short</u>-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
 
+
*Colin Fine<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00016.html</ref>: du'u vo'a, long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00094.html : Nick Nicholas, pe/po/be vo'a, long-distance
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*Iain Alexander<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00030.html</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html : Mark Shoulson, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
+
*David Twery<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00029.html</ref>: '''ka vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Colin Fine<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html </ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', <u>short</u>-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00016.html : Colin Fine, du'u vo'a, long-distance
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*Andrew Smith<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00017.html</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance (I assume, since children are ordinarily washed by others)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00030.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*Colin Fine<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00015.html , [http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00016.html]</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Colin Fine, '''lenu vo'a'''<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9309/msg00119.html</ref>: long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00029.html : David Twery, ka vo'a, long-distance
+
*Chris Bogart<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9502/msg00056.html</ref>: '''be vo'a''', <u>ambiguous</u> (but probably <u>short</u>-distance)
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
+
*And Rosta<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00135.html</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
 
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*Chris Bogart. lenu..'''be vo'a'''<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00076.html</ref>: <u>ambiguous</u>
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00017.html : Andrew Smith, lenu vo'a, long-distance (I assume, since children are ordinarily washed by others)
+
*And Rosta<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9510/msg00148.html</ref>: be fai voa, long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00015.html , [http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00016.html] : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a, long-distance
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*Don Wiggins<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00135.html</ref>: x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
 
+
*And Rosta<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9612/msg00011.html</ref>: nunybroda '''be vo'a''', long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9309/msg00119.html : Colin Fine, lenu vo'a: long-distance
+
*Iain Alexander<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00055.html</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9502/msg00056.html : Chris Bogart, be vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (but probably '''short'''-distance)
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9804/msg00040.html</ref>: leni vo'a, long-distance
 
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00135.html : And Rosta, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00076.html : Chris Bogart. lenu..be vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
 
 
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9510/msg00148.html : And Rosta, be fai voa, long-distance
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00135.html : Don Wiggins, x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
 
 
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9612/msg00011.html : And Rosta, nunybroda be vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00055.html : Iain Alexander, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
 
 
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9804/msg00040.html : Lojbab, leni vo'a, long-distance
 
  
 
Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4  
 
Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4  
Line 72: Line 60:
  
 
Discussion:
 
Discussion:
 
+
*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9108</ref>: long-distance (recanting <u>short</u>-distance -- which is how he remembered it, or what he read in [[The Book|The Book]] if he didn't remember it)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9108 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance (recanting '''short'''-distance -- which is how he remembered it, or what he read in [[The Book|The Book]] if he didn't remember it)
+
*Adam Raizen<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9111</ref>: <u>short</u>-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9111 : Adam Raizen, '''short'''-distance
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9113</ref>: long-distance
 
+
*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9157</ref>: long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9113 : Lojbab, long-distance
+
*And Rosta<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9182</ref>: long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9157 : Nick Nicholas, long-distance
+
*pc<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9303</ref>: record, long-distance
 
+
*pc<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9463</ref>: record, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9182 : And Rosta, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9303 : pc, record, long-distance
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9463 : pc, record, long-distance
 
  
 
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  6:1:0
 
Long:Short:Non-Commital:  6:1:0
Line 92: Line 76:
 
Helsem:
 
Helsem:
  
[[I am excluding the original postings of Helsem's story, in favour of the aggregate posting [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995]]
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The original postings of Helsem's story are excluded, in favour of the aggregate posting<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995</ref>/
 
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*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/538</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/538 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/869</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/869 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/877</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1079</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/877 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1081</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1079 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1093</ref>: ge ... gi vo'a, <u>short</u>-distance? But no real nesting.
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1336</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1081 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1415</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1093 : Michael Helsem, ge ... gi vo'a, '''short'''-distance? But no real nesting.
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1578</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', <u>ambiguous</u>
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1591</ref>: '''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1336 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1628</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1415 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1748</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance (Possibly, but the sentence is a little opaque for me.)
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1760</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1578 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1591 : Michael Helsem, ledu'u vo'a, long-distance
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1628 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1748 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance (Possibly, but the sentence is a little opaque for me.)
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1760 : Michael Helsem, le vo'a, long-distance
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995 : Michael Helsem (the short story):
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995 : Michael Helsem (the short story):
 
+
**'''le vo'a''', long-distance;
**le vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''be vo'a''', long-distance;
**be vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''be vo'a''', long-distance;
 
+
**'''le vo'a''', long-distance;
**be vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
**le vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
 
+
**'''le vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
 
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', <u>ambiguous</u> (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
**levo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
 
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu vo'a, '''ambiguous''' (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
 
 
 
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
 
 
**noi vo'a, long-distance;
 
**noi vo'a, long-distance;
 
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
 
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai '''lenu vo'a''' se xrani);
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai lenu vo'a se xrani);
+
**ge vo'a, <u>short</u>-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
 
+
**'''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
 
**ge vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
 
 
 
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
 
**lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
+
**'''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
 
 
**lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
 
**lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
 
+
**poi.. '''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
**poi.. ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''lenu vo'a''', long-distance;
**lenu vo'a, long-distance;
+
**'''ledu'u vo'a''', long-distance;
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2348</ref>: '''poi vo'a''', long-distance
**ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2362</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2348 : Michael Helsem, poi vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383</ref>: '''du'u vo'a''', <u>short</u>-distance
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2454</ref>: po'u na'ebo vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2362 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2457</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance (explicitly defending interpretation)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383 : Michael Helsem, du'u vo'a, '''short'''-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3143</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3150</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2454 : Michael Helsem, po'u na'ebo vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4270</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance (I'm pretty sure that's how it was meant)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2457 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (explicitly defending interpretation)
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5093</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', <u>short</u>-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3143 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance
+
*Michael Helsem<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5622</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3150 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4270 : Michael Helsem, be vo'a, long-distance (I'm pretty sure that's how it was meant)
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5093 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231 : Michael Helsem, lenu vo'a, '''short'''-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5622 : Michael Helsem, levo'a, long-distance
 
  
 
Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':
 
Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':
Line 174: Line 133:
  
 
Non-Helsem:
 
Non-Helsem:
 
+
*Robin Turner<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/514</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', <u>unintentionally</u> long-distance (the '''na'e''' should have been '''cu na'e''', so this should not involve nesting at all)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/514 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (the ''na'e'' should have been ''cu na'e'', so this should not involve nesting at all)
+
*tsali<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/893</ref>: ledu'u... '''be vo'a''', <u>short</u>-distance? (But, I personally think, logophoric instead.)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/893 : tsali, ledu'u... be vo'a, '''short'''-distance? (But, I personally think, logophoric instead.)
+
*Spigot<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1070</ref>: leka... soi vo'a, <u>unintentionally</u> long-distance (because there should have been a '''kei''' there, so in fact there is no nesting)
 
+
*Robin Turner<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1190</ref>: lenu... soi vo'a, <u>short</u>-distance (Gotcha! soi vo'a, of course, is treated as a fixed idiom)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1070 : Spigot, leka... soi vo'a, '''unintentionally''' long-distance (because there should have been a ''kei'' there, so in fact there is no nesting)
+
*Robin Turner<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1549</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance (which is why he got it right in the lessons and Nick didn't)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1190 : Robin Turner, lenu... soi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (Gotcha! soi vo'a, of course, is treated as a fixed idiom)
+
*Cyril Slobin<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308</ref>: noi vo'a, <u>short</u>-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate sentence)
 
+
*Adam Raizen<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4393</ref>: cei to vo'a, long-distance (but grammatically anomalous context)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1549 : Robin Turner, lenu vo'a, long-distance (which is why he got it right in the lessons and Nick didn't)
+
*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5489</ref>: poi vo'a, long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308 : Cyril Slobin, noi vo'a, '''short'''-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate sentence)
+
*Bjoern Gohla<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6463</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6953</ref>: '''le vo'a''', long-distance (whether it picks up one or both referents is being questioned, but that the reference is long-distance, and this is not a "book about itself", is not in doubt.)
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4393 : Adam Raizen, cei to vo'a, long-distance (but grammatically anomalous context)
+
*Lojbab<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6956</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5489 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
+
*xod<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6970</ref>: tu'a '''le vo'a''', long-distance
 
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7642</ref>: '''lenu vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6463 : Bjoern Gohla, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8310</ref>: po'u '''le vo'a'''..., long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6953 : Jorge Llambias, le vo'a, long-distance (whether it picks up one or both referents is being questioned, but that the reference is long-distance, and this is not a "book about itself", is not in doubt.)
+
*Adam Raizen<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9005</ref>: poi vo'a, <u>ambiguous</u>
 
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9009</ref>: poi vo'a, <u>ambiguous</u>
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6956 : Lojbab, lenu vo'a, long-distance
+
*Jorge Llambias<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9250</ref>: '''be vo'a''', long-distance
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6970 : xod, tu'a le vo'a, long-distance
+
*Nick Nicholas<ref>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9351</ref>: poi vo'a, long-distance
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7642 : Jorge Llambias, lenu vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8310 : Jorge Llambias, po'u le vo'a..., long-distance
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9005 : Adam Raizen, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9009 : Jorge Llambias, poi vo'a, '''ambiguous'''
 
 
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9250 : Jorge Llambias, be vo'a, long-distance
 
*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9351 : Nick Nicholas, poi vo'a, long-distance
 
  
 
Not counting unintentionals.:
 
Not counting unintentionals.:
Line 209: Line 159:
  
 
Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.
 
Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.
 
''Who is doing all this wonderful work? Thank you!''
 
 
mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]. For now, I'm done, and I'm going home. I doubt this actually proves much, but I'll polemicise another day...
 

Revision as of 05:52, 8 October 2014

The following is a collection of usage of vo'a as short scope and as long scope.

It has only a historical interest.

Note that in modern Lojban vo'a is always long scope, i.e. it always refers to the first sumti of the current sentence (not bridi).

See also Why the Book is Right and the ma'oste is Wrong

Times issue of the scope of vo'a has come up in the past

Inspired by Jay Kominek's dictum that if you're going to rehash a debate, just go to the archives and live vicariously. :-)

In the following, defenses, proposals, or usages of short-distance vo'a are highlighted, and usages ambiguous between short- and long-distance: le catra be vo'a as suicide, or .abu djuno ledu'u by. prami vo'a where vo'a=by are short-distance. 'Logophoric' use refers to vo'a refering to the preceding sentence, which is agreed to be wrong.

Old Lojban List (could only retrieve 100 of the 151 instances reported of vo'a so this is not complete.

Discussion:

Long:Short:Non-Commital: 7:2:1

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 3:2:1

Usage:

  • Lojbab[11]: x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
  • John Cowan (heheh)[12]: be vo'a, long-distance (i.e. x1 of main bridi, not of sumti selbri)
  • Nick Nicholas[13]: ne vo'a and lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Mark Shoulson[14]: be vo'a, long-distance
  • Nick Nicholas[15]: pe/po/be vo'a, long-distance
  • Mark Shoulson[16]: lenu vo'a, short-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
  • Colin Fine[17]: du'u vo'a, long-distance
  • Iain Alexander[18]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • David Twery[19]: ka vo'a, long-distance
  • Colin Fine[20]: lenu vo'a, short-distance (nu clause is x1 of main bridi, so long-distance interpretation is blocked)
  • Andrew Smith[21]: lenu vo'a, long-distance (I assume, since children are ordinarily washed by others)
  • Colin Fine[22]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Colin Fine, lenu vo'a[23]: long-distance
  • Chris Bogart[24]: be vo'a, ambiguous (but probably short-distance)
  • And Rosta[25]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Chris Bogart. lenu..be vo'a[26]: ambiguous
  • And Rosta[27]: be fai voa, long-distance
  • Don Wiggins[28]: x1 of main bridi, logophoric (i.e. = le go'i)
  • And Rosta[29]: nunybroda be vo'a, long-distance
  • Iain Alexander[30]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Lojbab[31]: leni vo'a, long-distance

Long:Short:Other: 14:2:4

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:0:1 (Lojbab, Shoulson, Fine have varied.)

New Lojban list:

Discussion:

  • Nick Nicholas[32]: long-distance (recanting short-distance -- which is how he remembered it, or what he read in The Book if he didn't remember it)
  • Adam Raizen[33]: short-distance
  • Lojbab[34]: long-distance
  • Nick Nicholas[35]: long-distance
  • And Rosta[36]: long-distance
  • pc[37]: record, long-distance
  • pc[38]: record, long-distance

Long:Short:Non-Commital: 6:1:0

People consistently Long:Short:Non-Commital: 4:1:0

Usage:

Helsem:

The original postings of Helsem's story are excluded, in favour of the aggregate posting[39]/

  • Michael Helsem[40]: le vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[41]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[42]: le vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[43]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[44]: le vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[45]: ge ... gi vo'a, short-distance? But no real nesting.
  • Michael Helsem[46]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[47]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[48]: lenu vo'a, ambiguous
  • Michael Helsem[49]: ledu'u vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[50]: be vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[51]: lenu vo'a, long-distance (Possibly, but the sentence is a little opaque for me.)
  • Michael Helsem[52]: le vo'a, long-distance
  • http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995 : Michael Helsem (the short story):
    • le vo'a, long-distance;
    • be vo'a, long-distance;
    • be vo'a, long-distance;
    • le vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • le vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, ambiguous (mi xanka le karcynunpo'u calenu xruti vo'a le tcadu: I worry about my car trouble as i return to the City);
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • noi vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance (translation garbled: mi nu'o gasnu ge lenu do se xrani ginai lenu vo'a se xrani);
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • ge vo'a, short-distance? (ti'e ge le drata ba'o garkla je'a re lamji ginai vo'a facki le nu gleki) No real nesting here, though.
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lesedu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu... poi vo'a, long-distance;
    • poi.. ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
    • lenu vo'a, long-distance;
    • ledu'u vo'a, long-distance;
  • Michael Helsem[53]: poi vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[54]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[55]: du'u vo'a, short-distance
  • Michael Helsem[56]: po'u na'ebo vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[57]: be vo'a, long-distance (explicitly defending interpretation)
  • Michael Helsem[58]: be vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[59]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[60]: be vo'a, long-distance (I'm pretty sure that's how it was meant)
  • Michael Helsem[61]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Michael Helsem[62]: lenu vo'a, short-distance
  • Michael Helsem[63]: le vo'a, long-distance

Counting the ge...gi vo'a as 'other':

Long:Short:Other: 43:2:4

Non-Helsem:

  • Robin Turner[64]: lenu vo'a, unintentionally long-distance (the na'e should have been cu na'e, so this should not involve nesting at all)
  • tsali[65]: ledu'u... be vo'a, short-distance? (But, I personally think, logophoric instead.)
  • Spigot[66]: leka... soi vo'a, unintentionally long-distance (because there should have been a kei there, so in fact there is no nesting)
  • Robin Turner[67]: lenu... soi vo'a, short-distance (Gotcha! soi vo'a, of course, is treated as a fixed idiom)
  • Robin Turner[68]: lenu vo'a, long-distance (which is why he got it right in the lessons and Nick didn't)
  • Cyril Slobin[69]: noi vo'a, short-distance (is considering co'o mi'e... to be a separate sentence)
  • Adam Raizen[70]: cei to vo'a, long-distance (but grammatically anomalous context)
  • Nick Nicholas[71]: poi vo'a, long-distance
  • Bjoern Gohla[72]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Jorge Llambias[73]: le vo'a, long-distance (whether it picks up one or both referents is being questioned, but that the reference is long-distance, and this is not a "book about itself", is not in doubt.)
  • Lojbab[74]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • xod[75]: tu'a le vo'a, long-distance
  • Jorge Llambias[76]: lenu vo'a, long-distance
  • Jorge Llambias[77]: po'u le vo'a..., long-distance
  • Adam Raizen[78]: poi vo'a, ambiguous
  • Jorge Llambias[79]: poi vo'a, ambiguous
  • Jorge Llambias[80]: be vo'a, long-distance
  • Nick Nicholas[81]: poi vo'a, long-distance

Not counting unintentionals.:

Long:Short:Other: 11:2:3

People consistently Long:Short:Other: 4:1:0 (Turner, Raizen, Llambias have been inconsistent, although the latter two are probably long-distance.)

Usage is often determined, natural language style, by conflicting interpretations. For example, when vo'a appears as an x1, you can be pretty sure it's not going to be short-distance.

  1. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9008/msg00016.html
  2. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00015.html
  3. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00077.html
  4. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00063.html
  5. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00012.html
  6. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00031.html
  7. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9407/msg00035.html
  8. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9507/msg00004.html
  9. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00063.html
  10. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00070.html
  11. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9103/msg00023.html
  12. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9011/msg00019.html
  13. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9112/msg00013.html
  14. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00052.html
  15. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9201/msg00094.html
  16. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00034.html
  17. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9203/msg00016.html
  18. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00030.html
  19. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9208/msg00029.html
  20. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9303/msg00107.html
  21. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00017.html
  22. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9305/msg00015.html , [1]
  23. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9309/msg00119.html
  24. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9502/msg00056.html
  25. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00135.html
  26. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9509/msg00076.html
  27. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9510/msg00148.html
  28. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00135.html
  29. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9612/msg00011.html
  30. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9708/msg00055.html
  31. http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9804/msg00040.html
  32. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9108
  33. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9111
  34. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9113
  35. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9157
  36. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9182
  37. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9303
  38. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9463
  39. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1995
  40. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/538
  41. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/869
  42. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/877
  43. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1079
  44. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1081
  45. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1093
  46. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1336
  47. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1415
  48. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1578
  49. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1591
  50. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1628
  51. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1748
  52. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1760
  53. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2348
  54. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2362
  55. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2383
  56. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2454
  57. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2457
  58. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3143
  59. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/3150
  60. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4270
  61. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5093
  62. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5231
  63. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5622
  64. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/514
  65. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/893
  66. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1070
  67. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1190
  68. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/1549
  69. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/2308
  70. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/4393
  71. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/5489
  72. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6463
  73. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6953
  74. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6956
  75. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/6970
  76. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/7642
  77. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/8310
  78. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9005
  79. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9009
  80. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9250
  81. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9351