pensi2 and djuno3 issues

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Here is a lovely conversation on what is supposed to go in pensi2, djuno3, and why epistemology/subject places are (or are not) useless.

~pp~

zgana: new question: what kinds of things can be pensi2

3:42pm selpa`i: I asked that same question like 2 weeks ago.

3:42pm zgana: aaand?

3:42pm lindar: du'u

3:42pm selpa`i: I still can't tell for sure.

3:42pm selpa`i: du'u yes

3:42pm selpa`i: But what else?

3:42pm selpa`i: Some ppl said nu

3:43pm lindar: Yeah, I saw that.

3:43pm lindar: It's wrong.

3:43pm zgana: it says subject/concept in the definition

3:43pm lindar: ...or at least less correct.

3:43pm zgana: not fact

3:43pm tricus left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)

3:43pm lindar: ...

3:43pm lindar: Well... that's what's been used.

3:43pm lindar: Maybe si'o?

3:43pm lindar: It's a weird word.

3:44pm lindar: The common convention has du'u as pensi2.

3:44pm selpa`i: is it malgli to use it for "I think I will go"?

3:44pm zgana: probably

3:44pm selpa`i: The definition is a bit unclear to me

3:44pm lindar: It -is- unclear.

3:44pm zgana: what do you mean by "i think i will"

3:44pm lindar: If you have a problem, write a proposal. We can submit it as an official proposal to the BPFK.

3:44pm zgana: are you unsure? are you deciding?

3:45pm tricus joined the chat room.

3:45pm selpa`i: both

3:45pm selpa`i: kinda

3:45pm tricus left the chat room.

3:45pm selpa`i: it seems malgli

3:45pm lindar: I'm not particularly sure.

3:45pm selpa`i: but allowing only du'u seems about weird

3:45pm lindar: I'm actually going to side against convention in this case and say anything could be put there, but an abstraction seems -more- correct.

3:45pm lindar: rlpowell: Can we get your input?

3:46pm zgana: valsi djuno

3:46pm lindar: Broca: If you're here, I'd love your input as well.

3:46pm zgana: .oi

3:46pm lindar: http://vlasisku.lojban.org/

3:46pm zgana: i know but i wanted it here for the discussion

3:46pm tricus joined the chat room.

3:46pm lindar: Also there are goldendict dictionaries and other stuff....

3:46pm zgana: x2 is a fact, x3 is a subject

3:46pm zgana: to mi ca'o pilno la vlasisku toi

3:47pm lindar: Hmmm...

3:47pm selpa`i: mi pensi do

3:47pm lindar: Like I said, write up the proposal, use your evidence (that was a good one), and I'll submit it.

3:48pm Moddington is now known as Modd|nazvati.

3:48pm rlpowell: lindar: With what?

3:48pm selpa`i: pensi2

3:49pm lindar: What goes in pensi2?

3:50pm zgana: selpa`i: in your example, i'd maybe say {.i ju'o ru'e ba zi cliva}

3:51pm selpa`i: .ie

3:51pm selpa`i: Something like that

3:51pm zgana: .i zo .au ka'e co'e .e'u ru'e

3:52pm selpa`i: never = no roi?

3:53pm latros: I think so?

3:53pm selpa`i: k

3:54pm lindar: Ehm... kinda?

3:54pm lindar: "Zero times"

3:54pm donri left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)

3:55pm zgana: {na pu} might work if you just mean {i've never _}

3:55pm lindar: You haven't in the past...

3:56pm selpa`i: On that note, it'd be useful to have a template of how the maximum selbri would look, most importantly the order of the tenses, negations etc

3:56pm selpa`i: NA PU SELBRI, but with all the selma'o that can be in a selbri

3:57pm Xunie joined the chat room.

3:57pm rlpowell: lindar: A du'u or a si'o, I should think.

3:57pm selpa`i: what about simple ko'a?

3:57pm selpa`i: KOhA

3:58pm rlpowell: lindar: The issue of what goes in various places is a large one that needs some real sit-down discussion betwene a bunch of peolpe at some point; if there's something about pensi2 that's unusually weird in this respect, it should be noted on the gismu issues page.

3:58pm selpa`i: "I think about you" mi pensi do

3:58pm selpa`i: is that BS?

3:58pm lindar: It sounds reasonable to me.

3:58pm lindar: Like I said, somebody write up the proposal, I'll put it on the correct page.

3:58pm rlpowell: selpa`i: Was your KOhA question about pensi2?

3:59pm selpa`i: Yes

3:59pm rlpowell: Because that sounds like sumti raising to me.

3:59pm zgana: i've never seen any other proposals, so i wouldn't necessarily know how to start

3:59pm zgana: rlpowell: consider djuno2 and djuno3

3:59pm zgana: or cilre

3:59pm zgana: subjects can be things, in those words

3:59pm selpa`i: djuno2?

3:59pm lindar: Yeah, I really have to agree there.

4:00pm latros: is there a way to raise without having to use SE

4:00pm lindar: That's not what that means.

4:00pm latros: er

4:00pm rlpowell: zgana: the "subject" places there look pretty seriously redundant.

4:00pm latros: wait

4:00pm latros: nvm

4:00pm latros: tu'a, right right

4:00pm selpa`i: redundant?

4:00pm selpa`i: they get used all the time

4:01pm lindar: They are somewhat redundant as one or the other gets used, but never both at once.

4:01pm zgana: they could be replaced by zo'ei constructs, probably

4:01pm selpa`i: true

4:01pm rlpowell: zgana: But yes, either djuno3 is redundand or pensi is missing a place; a note to that effect on gismu issues would be good.

4:01pm rlpowell: selpa`i: What's the difference between {mi djuno tu'a le karce} and {mi djuno fi le karce}?

4:01pm latros: I find jimpe's place structure is, in a practical sense, backwards

4:01pm rlpowell: AFAICT, they are *exactly* the same thing.

4:01pm latros: .ie

4:01pm rlpowell: Which means one of those places adds no vaule.

4:01pm lindar: Agreed.

4:01pm zgana: .ie

4:02pm latros: although

4:02pm latros: I suppose

4:02pm latros: {mi djuno fi le xumske}

4:02pm latros: is somewhat of a different intended meaning from {mi djuno tu'a le xumske}

4:02pm rlpowell: And which also means that pensi2 should be clearly stated to be like djuno2, out of which you can get the subject with tu'a

4:02pm latros: when djuno3 is a "field", in other words

4:02pm rlpowell: Right now it sounds like it's djuno2+djuno3, which is broken.

4:02pm selpa`i: It is possible to see some difference between the two

4:03pm zgana: does this mean we should expect {djuno} to change in the future, possibly?

4:03pm rlpowell: latros: I still don't see a difference; "I know some chemistry" vs. "I know things about chemistry". Seems the same to me.

4:03pm rlpowell: zgana: Unlikely.

4:03pm latros: but it's not that you know a du'u that has xumske in it

4:03pm latros: it's that you know things that are part of the field of chemistry

4:03pm zgana: latros: what about zo'e pe

4:04pm latros: that would fix it

4:04pm selpa`i: "I know that something is going on with a car" vs "I know some fact about a car"

4:04pm latros: that works for things like cars

4:04pm zgana: mi pensi zo'e pe lo nu cliva

4:04pm zgana: maybe

4:04pm latros: I don't think it works for things like chemistry

4:04pm latros: zo'e pe / zo'ei does fix it though

4:04pm rlpowell: < selpa`i> "I know that something is going on with a car" vs "I know some fact about a car" -- I do not see an interesting difference; something that is going on with a car *is* a fact about a car, no?

4:05pm zgana: actually di'u is wrong

4:05pm selpa`i: rlpowell: I suppose the difference I see, is "action/event" vs "subject"

4:05pm lindar: With zo'ei, I see no reason for djuno3.

4:05pm selpa`i: rlpowell: the former seems more ... animate

4:06pm lindar: OKAY SO PLEASE WRITE A PROPOSAL STATING YOUR OPINIONS AND EVIDENCE AND I'LL SUBMIT IT TO THE BPFK. -_-

4:06pm rlpowell: Heh.

4:06pm rlpowell: lindar: I don't think we have enough for a *proposal* here.

4:06pm zgana: .u'i ru'e ko smacni

4:06pm selpa`i: Why change djuno when it doesn't cause any problems?

4:07pm rlpowell: The point is more discussion needs to occur; a simple "look at pensi2 vs. djuno2/3 wtf?" on the gismu issues page would suffice.

4:07pm rlpowell: selpa`i: I have no particular intention of changing djuno.

4:07pm selpa`i: Good.

4:07pm rlpowell: Redundancy is not a crime.

4:07pm selpa`i: Agreed.

4:07pm latros: that I can agree with

4:07pm latros: there's a fair amount of usage breaking there

4:07pm enthymeme left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)

4:08pm tjader: Has anyone translated the poem of the ring to lojban?

4:08pm latros: I mean, is it really helpful to replace all the fi's with zo'ei's?

4:08pm zgana: i find that later places are always harder to remember

4:08pm selpa`i: I don't find that to be true.

4:08pm lindar: -'_- I'm just going to copypaste this discussion if nobody wants to write anything formal.

4:09pm rlpowell: tjader: The what?

4:09pm zgana: so pulling the epistemology place down by one would help n00bs

4:09pm rlpowell: lindar: < rlpowell> The point is more discussion needs to occur; a simple "look at pensi2 vs. djuno2/3 wtf?" on the gismu issues page would suffice.

4:09pm zgana: at least ones who think like me

4:09pm rlpowell: lindar: I've said that like 4 times now; which part confuses you?

4:09pm tjader: rlpowell: ash nazg durbatuluk...

4:09pm rlpowell: tjader: Oooh.

4:09pm tjader: one ring to rule them all

4:09pm rlpowell: *That* ring.

4:09pm rlpowell: I was thinking like the nibelungen or something.

4:09pm lindar: The part where "wtf?" pages don't do crap and then later we need documented discussion and proposals -anyway-.

4:10pm rlpowell: lindar: Yes, but we don't *have* a proposal right now.

4:10pm selpa`i: Bullshit, I'm sure people don't want to relearn a bunch of place structures just because it might be easier for noobs when there is one place less.

4:10pm tjader: la pa degja'i

4:10pm rlpowell: And Idon't have the focus/energy to produce one, and this isn't the right group anyway.

4:10pm zgana: selpa`i: i wasn't clear

4:10pm zgana: i wouldn't argue that it should be changed! definitely not

4:10pm rlpowell: lindar: Part of my plan is to have a bunch of such discussions to generate such proposals.

4:10pm tjader: anyway, is there a translation of that already floating around?

4:10pm zgana: hindsight is 20/20 though. i just mean it -would have been- easier the other way

4:10pm • rlpowell fucking hates epistemology places.

4:10pm rlpowell: And standard places, and observer places.

4:11pm rlpowell: tjader: Not to my knowledge.

4:11pm selpa`i: I've never used any of those.

4:11pm zgana: rlpowell: that's a good point. those things don't usually have names that you just use in a sentence

4:11pm lindar: Yeahhhh....

4:11pm lindar: I think we should just have an epistemology and standard BAI.

4:11pm rlpowell: I hate them because that's what BAI is for. The problem is that the gismu list predates BAI.  :)

4:12pm selpa`i: Though again, no one forces you to use them.

4:12pm zgana: .ua

4:12pm rlpowell: 'strue.

4:12pm rlpowell: But I've been trying to memorize place structures lately.

4:13pm zgana: can more BAI be made for those places?

4:13pm selpa`i: Maybe with mekso gone. :P

4:13pm rlpowell: Well, for things that really need it, like say *djuno*, an epistomolgy place is fine, and we have du'o

4:14pm selpa`i: Which should suffice.

4:14pm rlpowell: Similarily zgana/ga'a for observer.

4:14pm rlpowell: And manri/ma'i fro standard.

4:15pm zgana: .ua sai .a'u

4:15pm rlpowell: I've considered simply dropping those places from my memorization schedule.

~/pp~