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There is a tension in Lojban, as in natural & other artificial languages, between the need for brevity & the desire for accuracy. In addition, the whole concept of [[jbocre: figurative language|figurative language]] has an uneasy place in both Lojban theory & Lojban practice. Probably the [[jbocre: hardliners|hardliners]] who would limit metaphorical usage to those phrases marked by ''pe'a'' (or the cartouche ''fu'epe'a...fu'o'') are doomed to be defeated in the long run by the inherent fuzziness of human semantic space, but there is something ''lobykai'' & even noble in the attempt to draw this distinction with rigor. In defense of the stricter view, there is quite a lot of latitude in wielding the ''gismu'' themselves, so long as the thing referred to does indeed have the features indicated by the ''sumti''-slots... But the amount of poetry in calling a ''gerku'' a ''danlu'' or a ''se kerfa'' will not, after all, carry us very far.
The funny little noise you make when your brain breaks.


*First, there are those idioms which are more or less sanctioned by repeated usage:
''Is this just ''.oiro'e'' in Lojban, or something more extreme?''
**''skudji'' 'express-desire' for "want to say", is common & almost orthodox.


**''ciskycusku'' 'writingly express', once frequent, seems to be losing out to ''finti'' 'invent'.
Hrm. Probably closer to ''.oiro'ero'oru'e'' as there is a small amount of eyes bugging out dangerously, and the drooling can get unpleasent.
**''noryru'i'' 'semi-spirit' for "ghost" & ''xa'unro'a'' 'dweller-prose' for "diary", are useful coinages that have not yet been approved by the community at large.


**''le [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]]'' 'Lojban-list' is, although clearly a [[jbocre: calque|calque]] of the worst sort, now the canonical name for the internet mailing list, which might more properly be made from ''mrilu'', ''benji'', or ''judri''.
''... .oiro'e it is then. :-)''
**That goes for ''[[jbocre: jbofi'e|jbofi'e]]'' too (e.g. ''jbofanva minji''); a [[jbocre: calque|calque]] on Babelfish...


**''ji'anai'' for "except" is difficult to find a better alternative to, but not quite what the original meaning of ''ji'a'' 'also' would entail.
[[jbocre: pne|pne]] like ''le stedu po'e mi pe'a carna''. (Though I don't know why [[jbocre: jbofi'e|jbofi'e]] groups the {pe'a} with the {mi} when the [[jbocre: ma'oste|ma'oste]] says it means "'''start''' figurative (non-literal) speech/text".)
**''mibypre'' as a ''lujvo'' substitute for ''mi'', allowing certain literary effects not possible with a ''cmavo''.


***Since English personal pronoun ''one'' means "a me-ish sort of person", [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]] have used ''mibypre'' to render ''one''. The two usages are not incompatible, though, since changing English ''me'' to ''one'' does not destroy the meaning too much.
* Is ''le stedu po'e mi'' different from ''le stedu be mi''? More generally, is ''le broda po'e ko'a'' ever different from ''le broda be f* ko'a'' (usually ''fe'')?
**''selma'o'' was coined as a word for "[[jbocre: lexeme|lexeme]]" when ''dikyjvo'' did not exist and it is thoroughly ensconced in our literature with that meaning.  I think it is now a little too late to do to selma'o what we did to ''kunbri'' (now ''selbri'', and the former is long forgotten) and ''le'avla'' (now ''fu'ivla'', but you can still find the former sometimes).
** If I understand you correctly, your question boils down to "is it true that ''le broda po'e ko'a'' only makes sense in the cases where the "ownership" is so obvious that it was already provided for as a place value of ''broda''"? Not sure whether that's true or not; I can't think of a counterexample, though. (That's not saying much, though.) --mi'e [[jbocre: filip|filip]]


***''dikyjvo'' itself is oldfashioned, ''jvajvo'' being the 'received' synonym.
*** Yes, that's what I was getting at. All bodyparts have the place structure 'x1 is a <bodypart> of x2', and that's basically what ''po'e'' would in principle be used for. That means that ''po'e'' will never be needed in its central meaning, only for doubtful or metaphorical uses. But a word that is never used with its central meaning is very odd. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
****[[jbocre: pne|pne]] had heard ''seljvajvo''.
*** Other examples I thought of were an author and his book [[jbocre: as in, it'll always be "his" book even though he may not own a physical copy|as in, it'll always be "his" book even though he may not own a physical copy]] (I think this might have been from the lessons), but that's x3 of ''cukta''; also, family relationships (which were also an example of an inalienable relationship) have the "is a brother/father/son of x''n''" in their place structure. But your comments do give food for thought. --mi'e [[jbocre: filip|filip]]


****You may be right. We don't hear about them much now that they have become canonical. --[[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
* ''pe'a'' changed selma'o at some point. The [[jbocre: ma'oste|ma'oste]] may be out of date.
****The jvoste has an entry for jvajvo, but not seljvajvo. -mi'e [[jbocre: .djorden.|.djorden.]]
** (See note in [[jbocre: unassigned cmavo|unassigned cmavo]]. Note also that the ma'oste as currently downloadable says "marks a construct as figurative (non-literal/metaphorical) speech/text") According to the book, page 322: ''The cmavo "pe'a" is the indicator of figurative speech, indicating that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than literally''


****Ah well. With lujvo, you can play fast and free to a certain extent with places (as in: the places of the lujvo, as well as their order, need not correspond to the places or order of places of the multiple selbri making up the ''ve lujvo''), though I thought the idea of dikyjvo/jvajvo/seljvajvo/(your favourite name here) was to have the places more or less corresponding to those of the base tanru. And seljvajvo aren't rules; they're things governed by rules (so x1 of ''broda'', whatever you want to call it, is x2, not x1, of ''javni''). At any rate, ''se javni lujvo'' sounds more plausible as a base tanru to me than ''javni lujvo''. For what it's worth, since I'm not all that proficient in Lojban. --mi'e [[jbocre: pne|.filip.]]
*** ''.ua ki'e do'' I see. Yes, I have the ma'oste marked "06/13/94 . Updated cosmetically by Robin Powell 13 May 2002". If ''pe'a'' is UI, then the placement after the word makes sense. (FWIW, pe'a/po'a used to be selma'o PEhA/POhA) --[[jbocre: pne|pne]]
**''guzme stasu'', 'watermelon soup', "mild nonsense"; something you can say correctly in Lojban but doesn't really mean anything '''Why is watermelon soup such a ridiculous idea?  If it's cold it might not be so bad.'''


** [[jbocre: hunting unicorns anmo zalvi|hunting unicorns anmo zalvi]], among others, for 'beating a dead horse.'
How about ''le stedu be mi cu carna pe'a'', then?


*Then there are isolated suggestions, for which this place must be thought a kind of limbo pending the creation of a body of fluent speakers who can dispense with both prescriptive &amp; descriptive interference of this sort...
I've also seen ''mi cortu le stedu'' on the mailing list.
**''besna je betfu'' 'brain &amp; belly' for something like "body &amp; soul".
 
**''ko febvi je se zalvi'' 'boilingly grind you (at once)!' for a very serious pejorative.
**''ko ko kruji'': a veiled pejorative (be creamed-you!)
 
**''datytsani'', 'other-sky', for "[http://66.111.43.200/~jkominek/nuzban/wiki/index.php?D Dreamtime]".
**''lenku margu'', 'cold mercury', for "dead". Used in this kenning-like way, without being bracketed with a ''fu'epe'a...fu'o'', it must be considered a residual ''jbozi'u'' although far outlasting that era...
 
**''finti je facki'', 'invent and discover'.
**''cfipyboi'', 'confuser-ball', for ''terdi''. '''Ball of Confusion, that old Love and Rockets song.'''
 
**''vonpaso'', x1 (who is West African, generally but not necessarily Nigerian) swindles x2, causing him to lose x3; hence ''do se vonpaso'' "you've been 419ed", "you've been had"
 
*The "unofficial ''gismu''" are a third category: [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/unofficial-gismu.html
 
(When] we become more comfortable coining ''fu'ivla'' spontaneously, these will probably fall into disuse. E.g.
 
zo gugrnorge basti zo norgo
 
zo gugrtalia basti zo talno
 
zo gugrturki,e basti zo turko
 
zo gugrxrvatska basti zo xorvo
 
zo kri'ibe basti zo kribo        )
 
**Except that ''le norgo'' can refer to a person, a language, a country, a culture, etc, just like ''le glico'', whereas ''le gugdrnorge'' would always tend to be a country.
 
*As another variation of Lojban slang, we have words like '''zirpu''' as a description of a literary style (see [[jbocre: Michael Helsem|Michael Helsem]]'s [[jbocre: la bertcad. pera|la bertcad. pera]] prima ''[[jbocre: ziryroi|ziryroi]]'' '''opus primus [[jbocre: unless there's a musical setting I'm unaware of zo'o... ''Jbozgi provides a musical setting to everything''|unless there's a musical setting I'm unaware of zo'o... ''Jbozgi provides a musical setting to everything'']]'''), or '''tilju''' with the meaning ''x1 is pedantic by standard x2'', which arose from the lujvo '''tilju'idu'e'''.
**This use of ''zirpu'' alludes to the English phrase ''purple prose'', properly meaning florid and turgid writing.
 
**(Properly speaking, the words were ''zirjbo'' and ''jbozi'u'', and the intention was to designate a practice where [[jbocre: figurative language|figurative language]] usage might be considered optional, like natural languages'. He has since become one of the [[jbocre: hardliners|hardliners]], but the name might as well stand for that anti-''pe'a'' position...)
 
----
 
''besna je betfu, a very nice idiom! Thank you! I would consider it an idiom and not slang.''
 
*Profanity in Lojban does not officially exist outside "mabla". However, Lojbanifications of non-native curse words exist, as described in the article [[jbocre: Profanity|Profanity]].

Revision as of 17:07, 4 November 2013

The funny little noise you make when your brain breaks.

Is this just .oiro'e in Lojban, or something more extreme?

Hrm. Probably closer to .oiro'ero'oru'e as there is a small amount of eyes bugging out dangerously, and the drooling can get unpleasent.

... .oiro'e it is then. :-)

pne like le stedu po'e mi pe'a carna. (Though I don't know why jbofi'e groups the {pe'a} with the {mi} when the ma'oste says it means "start figurative (non-literal) speech/text".)

  • Is le stedu po'e mi different from le stedu be mi? More generally, is le broda po'e ko'a ever different from le broda be f* ko'a (usually fe)?
    • If I understand you correctly, your question boils down to "is it true that le broda po'e ko'a only makes sense in the cases where the "ownership" is so obvious that it was already provided for as a place value of broda"? Not sure whether that's true or not; I can't think of a counterexample, though. (That's not saying much, though.) --mi'e filip
      • Yes, that's what I was getting at. All bodyparts have the place structure 'x1 is a <bodypart> of x2', and that's basically what po'e would in principle be used for. That means that po'e will never be needed in its central meaning, only for doubtful or metaphorical uses. But a word that is never used with its central meaning is very odd. --xorxes
      • Other examples I thought of were an author and his book as in, it'll always be "his" book even though he may not own a physical copy (I think this might have been from the lessons), but that's x3 of cukta; also, family relationships (which were also an example of an inalienable relationship) have the "is a brother/father/son of xn" in their place structure. But your comments do give food for thought. --mi'e filip
  • pe'a changed selma'o at some point. The ma'oste may be out of date.
    • (See note in unassigned cmavo. Note also that the ma'oste as currently downloadable says "marks a construct as figurative (non-literal/metaphorical) speech/text") According to the book, page 322: The cmavo "pe'a" is the indicator of figurative speech, indicating that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than literally
      • .ua ki'e do I see. Yes, I have the ma'oste marked "06/13/94 . Updated cosmetically by Robin Powell 13 May 2002". If pe'a is UI, then the placement after the word makes sense. (FWIW, pe'a/po'a used to be selma'o PEhA/POhA) --pne

How about le stedu be mi cu carna pe'a, then?

I've also seen mi cortu le stedu on the mailing list.