number subgrammar: Difference between revisions

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== Lesson 3 ==
For computer applications of Lojban, there needs to be a formal grammar of numbers. I started from [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]' grammar below, and revised it in places and made it into a [[jbocre: PEG|PEG]] grammar.


=== Commands, Requests and Questions ===
I intend to meet all the rules in chapter 18 of CLL, except the one where it contradicts Lojban for Beginners, and LfB has the more useful reading. Namely, you can have a decimal point inside a "digit" (segment) of a mixed-base number like a time.


So far we've looked at simple propositions, sentences that say that
This involves defining 14 new selma'o. SA is not handled yet (what should it do inside a number?) Also, letters mixed with numbers are not handled, but I consider this a feature and not a bug.


something is true. You can, in theory, say anything you want with
The "number" rule in the existing grammar is replaced, and these rules are inserted:


propositions, but it's pretty inconvenient. For example, if I want you
^digit <- NO / TUhO


to run, I could say just that:
digits <- digit+


"I want you to run"
thousand <- digits? KIhO


but I'd probably just say:
whole <- thousand+ digits? / digits


"Run!"
approx <- whole / MAhU


How do we do this in Lojban? We can't copy English grammar and just say
after-decimal <- whole? ( RAhE whole? / JIhI approx? )?


'''''bajra''''', since, as we've seen, this means "Someone/something
approx-decimal <- (whole? PI)? approx


runs". Instead we say
decimal2 <- whole (PI after-decimal / JIhI approx-decimal)? / PAI


'''''ko bajra'''''
decimal1 <- MAhU? decimal2 / MAhU


'''''ko''''' means you, the person I'm talking to, but only in commands
decimal <- decimal1 CEhI?


(in normal sentences it's '''''do'''''). Normally it comes in the first
digitplace <- decimal PIhE?


place of the '''''bridi''''', since normally you're asking people to do
tuple <- digitplace+


something or be something, not to have something done to them. However,
real <- decimal / tuple / indef


you can put it elsewhere, e.g.
indef <- PI? RO / TUhO


'''''nelci ko'''''
fraction <- real? FIhU fraction? / real


This means something like "Act so that [[jbocre: someone unspecified|someone unspecified]] likes you",
complex <- fraction? KAhO fraction? / fraction


and sounds pretty odd in English, but you could use it in the sense of
quantity <- real / fraction / DAhA quantity


"Try to make a good impression." Another example is:
range <- DAhA? SUhO quantity?


'''''mi dunda le cifnu ko'''''
number <- indef number / range+ / complex / quantity


or "Act so that I give the baby to you," with the possible meaning "Get
NO <- pre-cmavo NO-words post-cmavo


up and put your cigarette out~--~I'm going to pass you the baby."
NO-words <- "no" / "pa" / "re" / "ci" / "vo" / "mu" / "xa" / "ze" / "bi" / "so" / "dau" / "fei" / "gai" / "jau" / "rei" / "vai" / "0" / "1" / "2" / "3" / "4" / "5" / "6" / "7" / "8" / "9"


You can even have '''''ko''''' in two places in a '''''bridi''''', for example,
MAhU <- pre-cmavo MAhU-words post-cmavo


;'''''ko kurji ko''''':[[jbocre: Act so that|Act so that]] you take care of you
MAhU-words <- "ma'u" / "ni'u"


or in other words, "Take care of yourself." In fact, since we can put
SUhO <- pre-cmavo SUhO-words post-cmavo


the '''''selbri''''' anywhere other than the beginning of the sentence
SUhO-words <- "su'e" / "su'o" / "me'i" / "za'u"


(since this would imply "someone/something" for the first place), we can
TUhO <- pre-cmavo TUhO-words post-cmavo


(and do) say
TUhO-words <- "tu'o" / "xo"


'''''ko ko kurji'''''
PAI <- pre-cmavo PAI-words post-cmavo


==== Exercise 1 ====
PAI-words <- "pai" / "te'o" / "ci'i"


Imagine that someone says these things to you. What is it that they want you to do?
CEhI <- pre-cmavo CEhI-words post-cmavo


# '''''ko klama mi'''''
CEhI-words <- "ce'i"


# '''''ko dunda le cukta mi'''''
KIhO <- pre-cmavo KIhO-words post-cmavo


# '''''la .izaBEL. nelci ko'''''
KIhO-words <- "ki'o"


# '''''ko sutra'''''
PI <- pre-cmavo PI-words post-cmavo


# '''''ko ko nelci'''''
PI-words <- "pi"


So far we've looked at simple commands. However, outside the army, we
PIhE <- pre-cmavo PIhE-words post-cmavo


don't normally use these very much~--~normally we ask people politely.
PIhE-words <- "pi'e"


Foreigners in England often make the mistake of thinking that putting
RAhE <- pre-cmavo RAhE-words post-cmavo


"Please" in front of a command makes it into a polite request, which it
RAhE-words <- "ra'e"


doesn't (in English we usually have to make it into a question e.g.
RO <- pre-cmavo RO-words post-cmavo


"Could you open the window?"). Fortunately, in Lojban, "please" really
RO-words <- "ro" / "so'a" / "so'e" / "so'i" / "so'o" / "so'u" / "rau" / "du'e" / "mo'a" / "no'o"


is the magic word. Putting the attitudinal '''''.e'o''''' before a
JIhI <- pre-cmavo JIhI-words post-cmavo


sentence with '''''ko''''' changes it into a request e.g.
JIhI-words <- "ji'i"


'''''.e'o ko dunda le cukta mi'''''
KAhO <- pre-cmavo KAhO-words post-cmavo


is literally "Please give me the book," but is actually more like "Could
KAhO-words <- "ka'o"


you give me the book, please?"
DAhA <- pre-cmavo DAhA-words post-cmavo


=== Questions ===
DAhA-words <- "da'a"


In English, we make a yes/no question by changing the
FIhU <- pre-cmavo FIhU-words post-cmavo


order of the words (e.g. "You are ..." -> "Are you ...") or putting some
FIhU-words <- "fi'u"


form of "do" at the beginning (e.g. "Does she smoke?"). This seems
^


perfectly natural to someone whose native language is English (or
''mi'e [[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]''


German, or whatever) but is actually unnecessarily complicated (as any
-----


speaker of Chinese or Turkish will tell you). In Lojban we can turn any
==== Grammar proposed by [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] (work in progress): ====


proposition into a yes/no question by simply putting '''''xu''''' at the
^number <- quantifier / complex


beginning. Some examples:
quantifier <- quantity* FIhU quantity* / quantity+ / PI quantity / real CEhI


;'''''xu do nelci la bil.''''':Do you like Bill?
quantity <- SUhO* RO / SUhO+ digits? / digits


;'''''xu mi klama''''':Am I coming?
complex <- real? KAhO real? / real


;'''''xu crino''''':Is it green?
real <- SUhO* MAhU? (decimal / fraction / aleph / digits / PAI)


There are two ways to answer these questions. Lojban, like some other
decimal <- digits? PI digits? (RAhE digits)?


languages, does not have words that mean "yes" or "no". One way to
fraction <- digits? FIhU digits?


answer "yes" is to repeat the '''''selbri''''' e.g.
aleph <- CIhI digits*


* '''''xu do nelci la bil.'''''
digits <- NO+ / TUhO
* '''''nelci'''''


We can also use '''''go'i''''', which repeats the last '''''bridi'''''. In this case,
^


though, it doesn't mean '''''do nelci la bil.''''' but '''''mi nelci la bil.'''''~--~it is
==== New selma'o ====


the '''meaning''', rather than the words of the '''''bridi''''' which are repeated. In
||


other words, in an answer to a yes/no question, it means "yes".
NO | no, pa, re, ci, vo, mu, xa, ze, bi, so, dau, fei, gai, jau, rei, vai, ki'o, pi'e


What about negative answers? Any '''''bridi''''' can be made negative by
RO | ro, so'a, so'e, so'i, so'o, so'u, rau, du'e, mo'a, no'o


using '''''na'''''. This negates the '''whole''' of the '''''bridi''''', so you can put
SUhO | su'o, su'e, me'i, za'u, ji'i, da'a


it anywhere you want~--~most people either put it right at the beginning,
MAhU | ma'u, ni'u


or before the '''''selbri''''' (I prefer the beginning, since then it is
TUhO | tu'o, xo


clearer that I'm negating the whole thing). So '''''na mi nelci la bil.''''' means "It is not true that I like Bill," or in other words, "I don't like Bill."
CIhI | ci'i


As an answer to a question, we do the same thing, so we just say '''''na nelci''''' or '''''na go'i'''''.
PAI | pai, te'o


'''Logical note:''' Negatives are a lot more complicated than they look, in
FIhU | fi'u


both English and Lojban. Strictly speaking, '''''na mi nelci la bil.''''' is
KAhO | ka'o


true even if I've never heard of Bill (since it's pretty hard to like
PI | pi


someone you know nothing about). We'll look at some other negatives
RAhE | ra'e


later, but for the time being '''''na''''' will do fine. Just as in
CEhI | ce'i


English, if you ask someone if they like Bill, and they reply "No"
||


because they haven't met him, they're being amazingly unhelpful.
==== Notes: ====


English also has a number of "wh-" questions~--~"who", "what" etc. In
#I made {da'a} a SUhO. For da'a in front of a number I propose the following interpretation: {ta mitre li da'a cipimu}, "that is all but 3.5 meters long", i.e. "that is 3.5 meters short of what it ought to be" or something like that.  


Lojban we use one word for all of these: '''''ma'''''. This is like an
# I made {ji'i} a SUhO because it is also used to indicate a range. This means that I don't use the position of ji'i as an indicator of the magnitude of fuzziness.


instruction to fill in the missing place. For example:
# Any SUhO in front of a quantity returns another quantity, so they can be added indefinitely, even though in usage they probably won't be. For example, {za'u za'u za'u pa}, "more than more than more than one" is equivalent to {su'o vo}, "at least four" (when dealing with integers/quantifiers).


;'''''do klama ma la london.''''':"Where are you going?" "London"
# {pi'e} and {ki'o} can mingle freely with digits, collapsing digits between {pi'e} or {ki'o}s, or between these and {pi} into a single macro-digit. {ki'o} is the special case of {pi'e} for base 1000. Digits after {pi} are decimal unless there is at least one {ki'o} or {pi'e} after {pi}.


;'''''ma klama la london. la klaudias.''''':"Who's going to London?" "Claudia."
# Two quantities in a row give the intersection if it exists, else the union. They group from left to right.


;'''''mi dunda ma do le cukta''''':"I give what to you?" (probably meaning "What was it I was supposed to be giving you?") "The book."
''mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]]''


Finally we have '''''mo'''''. This is like '''''ma''''', but questions a
-----


'''''selbri''''', not a '''''sumti'''''~--~it's like English "What does X
*[[jbocre: tinkit|tinkit]] try [[jbocre: xei|xei]] instead of rei. xo really should be an indef. oh, and what's the initial non-terminal?
 
do?" or "What is X?" (remember being and doing are the same!). More
 
logically, we can see '''''mo''''' as asking someone to describe the
 
relationship between the '''''sumti''''' in the question. For example:
 
;'''''do mo la klaudias.''''':"You ??? Claudia"
 
The answer depends on the context. Possible answers to this question
 
are:
 
;'''''nelci''''':"I like her."
 
;'''''pendo''''':"I am her friend"
 
;'''''prami''''':"I adore/am in love with her."
 
;'''''xebni''''':"I hate her."
 
;'''''fengu''''':"I'm angry with her."
 
;'''''cinba''''':"I kissed her."
 
Note that the time is not important here: just as '''''cinba''''' can
 
mean "kiss", "kissed", "will kiss" and so on, '''''mo''''' does not ask a
 
question about any particular time. There '''are''' ways to specify
 
time in Lojban, but it's not necessary to use them (just to satisfy your
 
curiosity though, "I kiss'''ed''' Claudia" is '''''mi '''pu''' cinba la klaudias.''''').
 
We've said that '''''mo''''' can also be a "What is
 
..." type of question. The simplest example is '''''ti mo'''''~--~"What
 
is this?". You could also ask '''''la meilis. mo''''', which could mean
 
"Who is Mei Li?", "What is Mei Li?", "What is Mei Li doing?" and so on.
 
Again, the answer depends on the context. For example:
 
;'''''ninmu''''':"She's a woman."
 
;'''''jungo''''':"She's Chinese."
 
;'''''pulji''''':"She's a policewoman."
 
;'''''sanga''''':"She's a singer" '''or''' "She's singing."
 
;'''''melbi''''':"She's beautiful." (possibly a pun, since this is what "meili" means in Chinese!)
 
There are ways to be more specific, but these normally involve a
 
'''''ma''''' question; for example '''''la meilis. gasnu ma''''' ("Mei Li
 
does what?").
 
There are more question words in Lojban, but
 
'''''xu''''', '''''ma''''' and '''''mo''''' are enough for most of what you
 
might want to ask. Three other important questions, '''''xo''''' ("How
 
many?") '''''ca ma''''' ("When?) and '''''pei''''' ("How do you feel about
 
it?") will come in the lessons on numbers, time and attitudes.
 
==== Exercise 2: Lojban general knowledge quiz ====
 
Answer the following questions (in Lojban, of course). Most of the
 
answers are very easy; the trick is to understand the question!
 
# '''''la brutus. mo la .iulius.'''''
 
# '''''ma prami la djuliet.'''''
 
# '''''xu la paris. nenri la .iunaityd.steits.'''''
 
# '''''ma ciska la .anas.kaREninas.'''''
 
# '''''xu la porc. sutra'''''
 
# '''''la .ozuald. catra ma'''''
 
# '''''xu la djorj.eliot. ninmu'''''
 
# '''''la sakiamunis. mo'''''
 
# '''''la cekspir. ciska ma'''''
 
# '''''la dolorez.kleiborn. mo'''''
 
# '''''xu la xardis. fengu la lorel.'''''
 
=== Answers to Exercises ===
 
==== Exercise 1 ====
 
# Come to me.
 
# Give me the book.
 
# Act so that Isabel likes you (or "Butter up Isabel" perhaps)
 
# Be fast ("Hurry up!")
 
# Like yourself. (note that changing the word order doesn't change the meaning here)
 
==== Exercise 2 ====
 
# '''''catra''''' (assuming it's Julius Caesar we're talkin about)
 
# '''''la romios.''''' (assuming it's '''that''' Juliet)
 
# '''''na nenri''''' or '''''na go'i''''', unless we're talking about Paris, Texas.
 
# '''''la tolstois.'''''
 
# Trick question. '''''la''''' can name a specific Porsche, not Porsches in general, so it might go fast or not (e.g. it could have just broken down and not go at all).
 
# '''''la KEnydis.'''''
 
# '''''ninmu''''' or '''''go'i''''' (Despite the pen-name, George Eliot was a woman)
 
# Not much we can say with the vocabulary we have at the moment other than '''''prenu''''' (maybe emphasising that Sakyamuni~--~the Buddha~--~was a person, not a God or somesuch). Other possible answers would be '''''xindo'''''~--~Indian, or '''''pavbudjo'''''~--~first Buddhist.
 
# Anything Shakespeare wrote, e.g. '''''la xamlyt.''''', '''''la .otelos.''''' ...
 
# '''''cukta''''' (it's a novel by Stephen King)
 
# '''''fengu''''' or '''''go'i'''''~--~we're talking about Laurel and Hardy here.

Revision as of 17:07, 4 November 2013

For computer applications of Lojban, there needs to be a formal grammar of numbers. I started from xorxes' grammar below, and revised it in places and made it into a PEG grammar.

I intend to meet all the rules in chapter 18 of CLL, except the one where it contradicts Lojban for Beginners, and LfB has the more useful reading. Namely, you can have a decimal point inside a "digit" (segment) of a mixed-base number like a time.

This involves defining 14 new selma'o. SA is not handled yet (what should it do inside a number?) Also, letters mixed with numbers are not handled, but I consider this a feature and not a bug.

The "number" rule in the existing grammar is replaced, and these rules are inserted:

^digit <- NO / TUhO

digits <- digit+

thousand <- digits? KIhO

whole <- thousand+ digits? / digits

approx <- whole / MAhU

after-decimal <- whole? ( RAhE whole? / JIhI approx? )?

approx-decimal <- (whole? PI)? approx

decimal2 <- whole (PI after-decimal / JIhI approx-decimal)? / PAI

decimal1 <- MAhU? decimal2 / MAhU

decimal <- decimal1 CEhI?

digitplace <- decimal PIhE?

tuple <- digitplace+

real <- decimal / tuple / indef

indef <- PI? RO / TUhO

fraction <- real? FIhU fraction? / real

complex <- fraction? KAhO fraction? / fraction

quantity <- real / fraction / DAhA quantity

range <- DAhA? SUhO quantity?

number <- indef number / range+ / complex / quantity

NO <- pre-cmavo NO-words post-cmavo

NO-words <- "no" / "pa" / "re" / "ci" / "vo" / "mu" / "xa" / "ze" / "bi" / "so" / "dau" / "fei" / "gai" / "jau" / "rei" / "vai" / "0" / "1" / "2" / "3" / "4" / "5" / "6" / "7" / "8" / "9"

MAhU <- pre-cmavo MAhU-words post-cmavo

MAhU-words <- "ma'u" / "ni'u"

SUhO <- pre-cmavo SUhO-words post-cmavo

SUhO-words <- "su'e" / "su'o" / "me'i" / "za'u"

TUhO <- pre-cmavo TUhO-words post-cmavo

TUhO-words <- "tu'o" / "xo"

PAI <- pre-cmavo PAI-words post-cmavo

PAI-words <- "pai" / "te'o" / "ci'i"

CEhI <- pre-cmavo CEhI-words post-cmavo

CEhI-words <- "ce'i"

KIhO <- pre-cmavo KIhO-words post-cmavo

KIhO-words <- "ki'o"

PI <- pre-cmavo PI-words post-cmavo

PI-words <- "pi"

PIhE <- pre-cmavo PIhE-words post-cmavo

PIhE-words <- "pi'e"

RAhE <- pre-cmavo RAhE-words post-cmavo

RAhE-words <- "ra'e"

RO <- pre-cmavo RO-words post-cmavo

RO-words <- "ro" / "so'a" / "so'e" / "so'i" / "so'o" / "so'u" / "rau" / "du'e" / "mo'a" / "no'o"

JIhI <- pre-cmavo JIhI-words post-cmavo

JIhI-words <- "ji'i"

KAhO <- pre-cmavo KAhO-words post-cmavo

KAhO-words <- "ka'o"

DAhA <- pre-cmavo DAhA-words post-cmavo

DAhA-words <- "da'a"

FIhU <- pre-cmavo FIhU-words post-cmavo

FIhU-words <- "fi'u"

^

mi'e rab.spir

Grammar proposed by xorxes (work in progress):

^number <- quantifier / complex

quantifier <- quantity* FIhU quantity* / quantity+ / PI quantity / real CEhI

quantity <- SUhO* RO / SUhO+ digits? / digits

complex <- real? KAhO real? / real

real <- SUhO* MAhU? (decimal / fraction / aleph / digits / PAI)

decimal <- digits? PI digits? (RAhE digits)?

fraction <- digits? FIhU digits?

aleph <- CIhI digits*

digits <- NO+ / TUhO

^

New selma'o

||

NO | no, pa, re, ci, vo, mu, xa, ze, bi, so, dau, fei, gai, jau, rei, vai, ki'o, pi'e

RO | ro, so'a, so'e, so'i, so'o, so'u, rau, du'e, mo'a, no'o

SUhO | su'o, su'e, me'i, za'u, ji'i, da'a

MAhU | ma'u, ni'u

TUhO | tu'o, xo

CIhI | ci'i

PAI | pai, te'o

FIhU | fi'u

KAhO | ka'o

PI | pi

RAhE | ra'e

CEhI | ce'i

||

Notes:

  1. I made {da'a} a SUhO. For da'a in front of a number I propose the following interpretation: {ta mitre li da'a cipimu}, "that is all but 3.5 meters long", i.e. "that is 3.5 meters short of what it ought to be" or something like that.
  1. I made {ji'i} a SUhO because it is also used to indicate a range. This means that I don't use the position of ji'i as an indicator of the magnitude of fuzziness.
  1. Any SUhO in front of a quantity returns another quantity, so they can be added indefinitely, even though in usage they probably won't be. For example, {za'u za'u za'u pa}, "more than more than more than one" is equivalent to {su'o vo}, "at least four" (when dealing with integers/quantifiers).
  1. {pi'e} and {ki'o} can mingle freely with digits, collapsing digits between {pi'e} or {ki'o}s, or between these and {pi} into a single macro-digit. {ki'o} is the special case of {pi'e} for base 1000. Digits after {pi} are decimal unless there is at least one {ki'o} or {pi'e} after {pi}.
  1. Two quantities in a row give the intersection if it exists, else the union. They group from left to right.

mi'e xorxes

  • tinkit try xei instead of rei. xo really should be an indef. oh, and what's the initial non-terminal?
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