me lu ju'i lobypli li'u 10 moi

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Copyright, 1989, 1991, by the Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane,
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Number 10 - November-December 1989
Published by: The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031 USA (703)385-0273

Ju'i Lobypli (JL) is the quarterly journal of The Logical Language Group, Inc., known in these pages as la
lojbangirz. la lojbangirz. is a non-profit organization formed for the purpose of completing and spreading the logical
human language "Lojban". The newsletter section of Ju'i Lobypli is separately published under the name le lojbo karni
(LK). This issue was supposed to be produced in September, but the trip to Worldcon, our rapid growth, and time spent
on legal work all have contributed to delays. This issue is now intended to be mailed with LK11, which will inciden-
tally save us some postage costs. The added time also gave us a larger quantity of Lojban writings to choose from, and
more time to ensure that what we are printing is correct. We still intend to gain a month in publishing, but it will
apparently not be until issue #13 that we will do so.
Some 290 of you will receive this issue of Ju'i Lobypli; we now have over 600 subscribers to le lojbo karni.
As noted in LK11, we have now received IRS approval for Section 501(c)(3) status, and your donations (not
contributions to your voluntary balance) are tax-deductible on U.S. and most state income taxes, back-dated to our
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Contents of This Issue

There is no news section in this issue, since we are coming out with LK11. Our major content this issue is Lojban text
(some 3200 words total), written by people other than Bob and Nora. The key Lojban text is Athelstan's translation of a
short story named "The Open Window", written by British author Saki. We want to encourage Lojbanists to seriously
attempt to back-translate and read the Lojban on your own, and have printed it double-spaced, included some guidelines
2

on translating and reading, and also some word lists. You will have to deduce the meaning of tanru and lujvo on your
own, though. We've provided guidelines and word lists enough in past issues that most of you should be able to do this.
This issue also contains discussions of Lojban poetry forms by poet Michael Helsem and Athelstan, of various
aspects of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis and testing thereof, and some explanations of some cmavo that seem to be giving
people trouble.

Table of Contents

News Notes ---2
On Lojban Poetry
'Skaldic Poetry and Lojban' by Athelstan ---3
Michael Helsem on Lojban Poetry Forms ---4
le lojbo se ciska
Guidelines for Understanding Unfamiliar Lojban Text ---6
A Palindrome by Michael Helsem; A Lojban Aphorism by Michael Helsem ---7
Self-Description by T. Peter Park ---8
A letter to Marcia Greenough by T. Peter Park; Two letters to Deb Wunder by T. Peter Park ---8
From Genesis by T. Peter Park
An Original Science Fiction Story by Jamie Bechtel ---9
A Re-translation of a Paragraph by JCB in Scientific American by T. Peter Park ---10
Roswell, New Mexico, 1947 by T. Peter Park ---10
A Short Lesson in Office Politics by T. Peter Park ---10
A Syllogism by Lewis Carroll, translated by Sylvia Rutiser---11
The Open Window by Saki, translated by Athelstan ---12
Translations of le lojbo se ciska (in order listed above) ---16
Retranslation of The Open Window by Saki, as translated by Athelstan ---25
Letters, Comments, and Responses: from Greg Higley; from various people on ' ---32
How Many Primitives Does Loglan Need?, by Jeff Prothero ---35
Mini Grammar Lessons: On du; On cu; On ke; On ti, ta, tu vs. vi, va, vu; On po'e, po, pe, po'u;
On go'i vs. ti vs. di'u vs. la'edi'u ---37
On Sapir-Whorf
LogFest Report by pc and Athelstan ---40
Discussion on Jim Brown's Sapir-Whorf Test in Loglan 1 4th Edition
from Bob & Athelstan's Unabridged Review ---41
from pc (John Parks-Clifford) ---44

Mini-cmavo List for use in Translations insert

News Notes

It's been less than a week since LK11 went to the printer, but the Lojban world keeps moving. Bob did another
radio interview on 11 December, with a British station: 'Atlantic 192'. We've received a copy of the San Francisco
version of the Oldenburg article. It was somewhat truncated, so if we get to distribute the Washington Post version
next issue, those who see versions in other papers may want to reread to see if they missed anything.
Bob now has a Usenet/Internet mailbox address, compliments of Eric Raymond, who has set up his Lojban network with
about 60 names so far. Eric is a long distance call, and Bob won't be checking his mailbox very often, so Post Office
mail is more efficient. But computer files, Lojban text, and articles for LK and JL can be sent now to
[email protected].
Finally, Rick Harrison tells me that Alembic, listed in LK11 credits, is ceasing publication.

3

On Lojban Poetry In languages that do not have stress as a distinguishing
characteristic of tone, the syllable count in each line is
We have comments from two people on the subject of Lojban important. Japanese haiku is probably the most well-known
poetry. Athelstan writes primarily on one form of poetry of these forms; it requires no rhyme or meter; instead it
with which he is familiar: skaldic poetry. Michael Helsem has exactly three lines with 17 syllables in a 5/7/5
writes in response to the brief comments I made in LK10 in pattern, with the added requirement that it demonstrate a
describing the article by Athelstan. particular 'balance' in harmony/disharmony of subject,
sound, and meter.
There is a question commonly asked of us, not really Of poetry's many forms, English end-rhyme does not seem
relevant to Lojban, which we can answer in connection with especially suited for Lojban. This is but a guess, based
the following article. This is 'Does Athelstan have a last on the limited number of gismu that rhyme and the lujvo
name?'. The answer is both yes and no. architecture that limits the variety of ideas that will end
Athelstan's name comes from Old Norse; family names were in matching sounds. Many other poetic forms may be more
not used for identification in that culture. Instead, apropos to Lojban's sound and word structures. In this
surnames would be granted, generally by nobility, in article, I shall concentrate on the Norse alliterative
recognition for some great or significant deed, somewhat poetry of the skalds, and in particular the drottkvaet, or
after the manner of modern honorary degrees. In the ab- court metre.
sence of such an honor, different people with the same
first name would be distinguished by their place of origin First some definitions:
or trade, a practice that eventually led to our modern
practice. Honorific surnames wouldn't be used in the same The common unit of skaldic poetry is the strophe, or
way as modern family names, but rather only in an appropri- stanza, which consists of four lines, or eight half-lines.
ate context. Athelstan obviously has a place he was born, Unlike much of English poetry, these lines are usually not
but he does not need this 'surname' to distinguish him from grammatically intact sentences or phrases - sentence
others. How many other people do you know by the name of structure is independent of line structure. In fact, such
Athelstan? poetry often has several independent 'sentence' thoughts
But, in addition to a locative surname, Athelstan has going at once, with the harmony of sound helping the
been rewarded (by appropriate authorities familiar with the listener piece the structures together.
tradition) with two different honorific surnames for Each line consists of two half-lines. There is an odd
noteworthy deeds in unrelated fields (Athelstan is a person half-line with exactly six syllables, three of which are
of diverse talents). The stories are long, and perhaps I accented. Each odd half-line is followed by an even half-
can talk Athelstan into writing of them (in Lojban) for line, also with exactly six syllables, three accented. Un-
later issues; he tells these stories quite interestingly, like English end-rhyme forms, all alliteration and rhyme
in the old bardic tradition. But in any case, he uses them takes place in the accented syllables, or beats. I will
only in the appropriate context. The following article is for this discussion use the most common stress pattern,
one such place, since one of his honorific surnames stems trochaic. That is, each beat is followed by an unstressed
from his demonstrated mastery of skaldic forms. (T. Peter syllable.
Park uses the other honorific surname in his description of Two syllables alliterate if their initial sounds are
the New York Lojban meeting, printed in LK11.) alike: the words 'fight', 'far' and 'phantasm' alliterate.
Any two syllables that begin with vowels also alliterate.
In each line of skaldic poetry, exactly two beats in the
Skaldic Poetry and Lojban odd half-line and the first beat in the even half-line
by Athelstan B‚rfoetskald alliterate.
A full rhyme is one that shares the same vowel and final
English speakers may be unaware of the wealth of possible consonant sounds in one syllable: 'rat'/'cat', 'rut'/'cut'
forms of poetry that exist in the world's literature. Most and 'rough'/'cuff' are full rhymes. A half rhyme differs
English poetry is dominated by a single form, end-rhyme, in from a full rhyme in that the vowel sound must be
which the final word of each line rhymes with one or more different: 'rat'/'cut', 'rut'/'cat' and 'rough'/'cough'
other lines; the exact lines in a stanza which are paired are half rhymes. In each line of skaldic poetry, a half
or grouped in rhyme differ according the specific form, rhyme appears in exactly two of the three beats in the odd
giving us such end-rhyme forms as doggerel, limericks, and half-line, including the third beat. In the even half-
sonnets. End-rhyme is often elaborated by requiring line, a full rhyme appears in exactly two beats, also
particular matching stress patterns in each rhyming pair or including the third, but the pattern need not be the same
group of lines. End-rhyme has proven less interesting for as in the odd half-line.
modern poets, who abandon rhyme, stress pattern, or both to
achieve a density or abstractness of expression uncon- This is an unfamiliar (and complicated) form to many, so
strained by form. I include here an English language example of a skaldic
There are many other possible forms, including forms that strophe. (It's not really supposed to have great meaning
ignore rhyme and which count only stressed syllables in it - this is only an example.) Please note that the
(Germanic long-line, the form of Beowulf, is an example). last syllables of each half-line are unstressed and so

4

neither rhyme nor alliterate. The alliterations appear in glish poetry gives access to (--my English skaldic verse
bold print, the full rhymes in italics, and the half rhymes must seem totally twisted to anyone who doesn't know those
are underlined. Vowel alliterations are marked with a bold conventions). (Or a tradition of broken utterance, which
period. is haiku's, as any literal rendering will show.) Athelstan
is absolutely correct in perceiving Lojban's consonantal
Sing with me a song of richness as the salient poetic character. But that applies
soaring birds and words that only to its core vocabulary. Include all the function
tell of hawks; The hall of words as they naturally occur, and Lojban has a greater
heaven flows with prose of resemblance to a pizzicato language like Hawaiian or
.owls and .airborne furless Japanese, than to the surflike pounding of Germanic lines
.awful bats with hats on. in Alliterative-Accentual. Another thing: it takes many
Night and day are not the near-synonyms to be able to say what you want and have it
nicest times for rhymes' sound. alliterate. I don't foresee this ever being true of Lojban
unless it swamps its carefully-distinguishable word-hoard
Strophes were informally composed and recited singly or with a ton of redundant imports...
in pairs, but more formal occasions demanded the long lay, I imagine Lojban poetry will eventually create brand new
or drapa form. This consists of twenty or more strophes, forms out of its own vast uniqueness which is hardly
partitioned into three or more parts by a chorus of one, perceptible yet to those who think in English (or other
two or four lines which ended a strophe or stood alone. natural language) first. I've got a few noodly intimations
Skaldic poetry often used a figurative metaphor known as I'm reluctant to pontificate upon before I can substantiate
a kenning, whose canonical English form is 'x of the y'. them with practical excellence, but I can say right now
For example, "steed of the waves" is a kenning for 'ship', that the "abstract ideas of modern poetry" find a greatly
and "whales' road" stands for 'ocean'. In some drapas, expanded range in this language with few concrete noun-
kennings are all-pervasive and no thing is directly named. distinctions (names of birds, flowers, and feelings), but
capable of phrases such as "mu'e laxyzva" -- "The
I think that Lojban is well suited phonologically and achievement of balance-presence" (which may mean just
grammatically to the use of skaldic form. Lojban gismu are "poise", or imply a whole world of Taoist philosophy). --
trochaic in meter, and Lojban's penultimate word-stress so naturally and yet so suggestively.
system is conducive to the regular patterns required. The I guess a lot of people still identify "poetry" with
large number of independently elidable cmavo words allows rhyme+meter, although almost no poets even attempt them
one to alter the rhythm of the utterance to suit the form. anymore outside of popular music. For Lojban to be
Moreover, the morphology allows us to vary the length and shoehorned into existing English poetic forms is not quite
form of a lujvo, allowing the poet to choose the word form the contortionist feat that skaldic verse would be, but my
that best suits the meter without changing the meaning. earlier point still applies. In addition, Lojban has few
We have the ability in Lojban to mark a word as natural rhymes, and hardly any 'good' ones at all. 'Love'
figurative in its use, and so we may use kennings at will, (prami) rhymes only with 'computer' (skami) and 'acid'
but we also have the option of redefining the grammar for (slami), while 'desire' (djica) rhymes with 'differ'
the poem to treat all two word metaphors as kennings, and (frica) and -- too closely -- 'deceive' (tcica), for
may thus accommodate the all-kenning form as well. example. Compare fire/desire or Schmerz/Herz et al...
I shall attempt such poetry in the near future as my This is not as bad as Esperanto, which rhymes Vulva and
schedule permits, but I put it forth to all aspiring Lojban Gunpowder; still, artificial languages seem uniformly
poets to explore this and other alliterative poetry forms. unfortunate in this respect. More sophisticated devices,
In addition to formal skaldic poetry, there may be other like slant-rhyme, assonance, and particularly the
patterns, more or less structured, that will project the combination of an initial and a medial consonance (muzga
full color of Lojban's expressive nature. A new language zgana; lujvo jvinu), I suggest, are well worth trying in an
calls for new ideas, and for the reexamination of old ones. irregular way. But, to use Pound's nomenclature, Lojban
excels in aptness for meaning-subtlety (Logopoeia) rather
Michael Helsem on Lojban Poetry Forms than phonic luxuriance (Mekpoeia) or pictorial
descriptiveness (Phanopoeia).
... Lojban poetry. I am eager to see Athelstan's Lojban is an athletic language; it stretches your mind
proposal, being a skaldic aficionado myself (albeit non- with challenging concept-divergences and novel connections.
Norskophone), but I have grave doubts already. (I do Making lujvo will probably be its first and most popular
admire the grandeur of its absurdity -- akin to one of the word game always; just as Crosswords exploit the hodgepodge
projects to write quantitative verse in English!) Lojban of English megavocabulary, lujvo involve the very quiddity
is a non-inflected language with numerous non-elidable of Lojban. I predict that it will eventually become a
function words (at least in its grammatically correct much-used source of return-borrowings for many natural
form), whereas such rigorous modes of versification as languages, somewhat as classical Greek has continued to
Drўttkvaett (or haiku for that matter) require either a provide new loans for scientific usage.
language that is inherently terse (i.e. inflected), or else One last thing. I think there might be a definite
a polyvalent grammar like the anarchical tradition of En- limerick potential. Anapests seem to come easier than

5

iambs; and what rhymes exist, have a quality that reminds with embedded verse, as well as a frequently alliterative
me of a triple rhyme in English -- as can be found in the and simply-rhyming prose. I'll be trying to capture the
dustier corners of a rhyming dictionary: mentor-centaur, Arabic richness of pattern in Lojban, just as Burton tried
gurgle-burgle, muscular-crepuscular. This is a Special to capture it into English. As an example, which helps
Effect, like fireworks, not the constant recurrence of a belie Michael's perception of a lack of synonyms, Burton's
mild harmony (like rhyme in Italian or Spanish)... English translation of a vocative (near the beginning of
the first story) reads "O King of the time and Caliph of
Athelstan responds with two notes: the tide ..."; the "tide" here obviously means "season", as
1. Germanic languages were not as terse as they are now, in "Yuletide".
precisely because they were more highly inflected. Latin Lojban is fully capable of expressing this parallel
and Greek were very highly inflected, and they are anything metaphor of nearly identical meanings with two totally
but terse. unrelated expressions, just as English does: "doi nolrai
2. There are usually several directions from which to co turni be le temci be'o je catni be le cabna" (O
approach a concept: function, appearance, resemblance, superlative-noble type-of [governor of the time-interval
effects, etc. Many gismu are also expressible as and authority over the present]), and I even captured the
conversions of other gismu. Combined with the further tool alliteration (which is highly valued in Arabic poetry and a
of kenning description, Lojban promises as rich and diverse feature that Burton tries to emulate) at least as well as
a phonetic realm as is available in any language, past or the English does. (I won't promise such successful Arabic
present. poeticity in the rest of my translation.)

Bob adds some other points: In the final analysis, both Michael and Athelstan may be
Lojban has more rhyme capability than Michael indicates. right. We have to try new ideas and see what works for
It is true that there isn't much rhyming capability among Lojban. If we can give rebirth to old forms that have been
gismu, but among lujvo there should be considerably more lost to English, great. If people choose to develop a new
rhymes. After all, all Lojban brivla end in a vowel or cultural form of poetry, this may even be evidence of a new
diphthong, and there are only so many possible endings. Sapir-Whorf effect of a type never consider by Jim Brown
It is true, though, that many of the rhyming syllables and others.
would be based on sharing the same rafsi, leading to a lack
of variety of pure rhyming forms. But moving beyond pure
rhyme, into Athelstan's half-rhyme and alliterative schemes le lojbo se ciska
should allow Lojban to show great richness. After all,
Lojban has a much more restricted set of permitted word Guidelines for Understanding Unfamiliar Lojban Text
endings, and a smaller set of phonemes, than does English.
Since there are, at least theoretically, more possible Even if you only have a gismu list and rafsi indexes, you
Lojban words than English words, this suggests a higher should be able to usefully work on translating the
density of rhymes and near-rhymes than English has. Time following. With simple cmavo lists, you can probably get
will tell if this is a real feature of the language, and most of the meaning, while if you've studied the textbook
not a false extrapolation. lessons, almost all of the texts that follow should be un-
Lojban has many non-elidable structure words, but it has derstood.
many elidable ones as well. It can even be said that This doesn't mean that you necessarily can just read the
Lojban's optional tense system is an elidable form of Lojban text straight and understand it. There are some
inflection. "pu klama" can be said to be an inflected form tricks that a new learner can use to maximize
of "klama"; however, Lojban inflections are both optional understanding. This section attempts to explain the
and completely regular. It is unclear why this would be a technique that we had the Lojban class use in tackling
disadvantage in poetry as compared with inflected unfamiliar text.
languages, as Michael implies. You should not allow yourself to be hampered by what you
With regard to sound and rhythm, I cannot say whether haven't yet studied, or what you don't have lists for.
Lojban is more like Japanese than like German. However, Translate what you can, and you may be able to interpolate
since Lojban is a language with stress-oriented the rest. Failing this, look at the literal and colloquial
pronunciation, one would suspect that rhythm, (as opposed English translations in the section following, and try to
to rhyme) would follow the strong-stressed patterns of figure out the function and/or meaning of the word or
Germanic languages, as opposed to the syllabic rhythms that construct that you didn't understand, before moving on to
I believe are typical of most oriental languages (as well the next sentence.
as French). The consonant clustering, is of course
reminiscent of Slavic languages; perhaps we should examine Noting that all sentences start with .i and that new
Slavic poetry forms to determine some additional possibil- paragraphs start with ni'o or ni'oni'o, do the following
ities for Lojban. (the first two paragraphs of the English re-translation of
I am not well-versed in poetry, but I am going to be Saki in the next section have been marked in the manner
getting a bit of experience in devising Lojban forms: the suggested as a sample):
Arabian Nights tales that I am working on are scattered

6

1. Put brackets [] around each sentence in the text. Put to start from the left, marking off sumti. If you come to
quote marks "" around each quotation (starts with "lu" and a brivla that isn't a sumti, it generally is a selbri.
ends with "li'u", or is a single word preceded by the word
"zo" (which indicates single-word quotation). Parentheses 4. Relative clauses and phrases help identify sumti, and
(mark them as such) are indicated by "to" as the left are sub-sentences and sumti, respectively.
parenthesis, and "toi" as the right parenthesis. "sei" and 4a. Relative clauses are attached to sumti with noi or
"se'u" are another set of matching left and right poi. These are embedded bridi sentences, so mark the
parentheses markers (indicating a metalinguistic comment - noi/poi as a left edge of a bridi clause with a left carat
consider a sei/se'u comment as a parenthetical sentence em- '<'. By the grammar, you also know that what precedes the
bedded in the other sentence, although sumti will always be noi/poi is a sumti. The end of a relative clause is marked
attached with "be" and "bei" in such a sentence) (the by "ku'o" (which may be elided). Relative clauses are also
"se'u" can sometimes be elided, so don't worry if you don't often terminated by running into the end of the sentence or
find it), and are generally found totally within another into the main selbri of the sentence, so again, don't worry
sentence. Leave right ends unmarked if you can't find if you don't find a right edge. Mark right edges, as you
them; if the text is grammatical, they will become ap- identify them, with a right carat '>'.
parent. Marking these major constructs gives you the gross 4b. Relative phrases are attached to sumti with pe, po'u,
structure of the text. po, po'e, ne, no'u, and goi, and a few other members of
lexeme GOI that occur infrequently. If you see one of
2. Put braces {} around the contents of any NU abstraction these words, then that which follows it is a sumti AND that
clause. The left side is marked by a member of NU lexeme which precedes it is also a sumti. The second sumti
(nu, ka, ni, jei, su'u, zu'o, pu'u, mu'e, si'o, li'i, modifies or relates to the first in some way depending on
za'i). These may be compounded with le, lo, loi, lei, or the particular cmavo. Put a pair of equal signs around one
one of the other articles in lexeme LE, e.g. "lenu". The of these attaching terms, since they usually indicate some
end of a sentence or the word "kei" always closes an type of relationship between the two sumti so joined.
abstraction clause; a "cu" may also close it, but don't
assume so at this point - leave the right edge unmarked if 5. Most cmavo not already mentioned will be in one of four
it isn't obvious. The text within an abstraction clause is lexemes.
a sentence, so when you translate the sentence, you'll then 5a. Anaphora (pronouns) are in lexeme KOhA and lexeme DA.
find the right end. Most frequently these include mi, do, mi'o, ma'a, zu'i,
zo'e, da, de, di, ko'a, ko'e, ko'i, ko'o, ko'u. These are
3. For each sentence, analyze it from left to right. all sumti, although they may be found in a compound
Identify and translate each brivla. If it is next to possessive form: lemi stizu, in which case the article,
another brivla, it is a tanru, so translate the tanru as a anaphora, and brivla together make up a sumti.
whole. A brivla may be preceded by "na", which negates it; 5b. Most unfamiliar cmavo will be either a sumti tag in
include the "na" in the tanru. lexeme BAI or FA, or a discursive in lexeme UI. If you
If a brivla or tanru is preceded by an article in lexeme have a cmavo list, look among those lexemes first. UI
LE, then the whole is a sumti. Put a single underline lexeme has no effect on the grammar - you can ignore them
under each sumti as you identify it. until you have all the rest of the sentence figured out.
If a brivla or tanru is preceded by "cu", then it is the sumti tags are always followed by a sumti, so you can also
main selbri of a bridi sentence. Put a double underline ignore them, except to use them to find a sumti that is
under each selbri as you identify it (the "cu" is not part otherwise unidentified.
of the selbri).
A selbri may be preceded by a tense instead of by "cu" (a 6. By now, you should have well marked up the Lojban, and
tense is usually a single cmavo or a compound containing have underlined or marked pretty much every word in the
one or more of ba, ca, pu, vi, va, vu, zi, za, zu; e.g. "ca sentence. This is because everything in a sentence is
klama"). You will use double underlines for tensed selbri either a sumti, a discursive, or the main selbri. Now
as well (the tense is not part of the selbri); however, a translate the sentence, piece by piece, as best as you can.
tense on a brivla does not necessarily mean that you have a (Remember that "le bajra" translates as "the runner", not
selbri. Look at the word before the tense. If the tense "the run".) You may fail on the first several sentences,
is preceded by a member of LE (e.g. le pu jmive), the and have to look at our translations to see the pieces, but
construct is a sumti, and should be single-underlined; you will find that you quickly get the hang of it. The
otherwise it is a selbri and should be double-underlined. procedure only seems complicated at first; you'll be doing
Not all selbri are marked with "cu" or a tense; it in your head rather than on paper after a bit of
especially when following an anaphora (pronoun). In "mi experience.
klama", "mi" is a sumti and "klama" is a selbri. However, I'll let Michael start off with some of his Lojbanic
"lemi klama" (or "le mi klama", same difference) is a sumti attempts. We'll have more eventually, but I'm less willing
- the "le" makes all the difference. to play with someone's phrasing to make it grammatical in
As you can see, telling the difference between sumti and the case of something labelled 'poetry' instead of 'prose',
selbri is the toughest thing in the language. It is best for fear of losing some intended sound or meaning effects.

7

A Palindrome (mitfa'e lerpoi)
by Michael Helsem

.a'u le rapcalku cu klacpare lu'a

(I wish!) The repeat-shell is a going (to/from) climber,
loosely speaking.

Bob: The significance of this statement is left to the
reader, but it is both grammatical and a valid palindrome.

-------------------------------------------------
A Lojban Aphorism by Michael Helsem
(corrected by Bob)

.uu lo'e rarbau cu simlu jalge loi cmadjizu'e pe sekai lo
ta'e drabai ka juxre

(Sorrow!) The typical natural-language is a seeming-result
of small-want-acts (random acts) which-are-characterized-by
habitually correct-forcer awkwardness.
This is approximated by: The typical natural language
seems to result from random acts of awkwardness forced by
correctness.

-------------------------------------------------

8

Self-Description
by T. Peter Park

coi pendo

.i mi du la tipitr. park. poi cnino lojbytadni

ni'o mi ckuzdacertu je bancertu je circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk. pe vi la cladaplus. .i
puzuze'uku mi tadni le nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu gasnu cu zu'o
tadni le prijypenla'u .e loi bangu .i mi pu'i tavla gi'a tcidu vau la gliban. .e la .estyban. .e la frasyban. .e la
tcoban. .e la spanban. .e la portyban. .e la .italban. .e la sfedban. .e la ruskyban. .i mi steci nelci lezu'o tadni la
lojban. .i mi mutce nelci loinu kasta'a noi kansa loi menli .a zdile prenu

ni'o mi pu jbena la .erix. park. .e la .ilmen. park. ca la pasovopananc. vi la .estis. noi pucaze'a sepli gugde
gi'e caca pagbu le softo badyjecta .i mi capu xabju la .iunaitydsteits. zai la pasovobinanc. .i mi capu tadni vi le
slacitcu'e po'e la linbruk. .e le balcu'e po'u la .adelfais. .e le su'ore balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .e la MERiland.
.i mi pu tadni le ckuzdaske vi le balcu'e po'e la MERiland.

ni'o mi capu ciska re lojbyciksi torselcusku

co'o
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A letter to Marcia Greenough
by T. Peter Park

coi marcan.

.i mi du la tipitr. park.

ni'o lemi nu penmi do ca le midydeisa'i noi pu kansa la krtis. bruks. cu mutce pluka mi .i mi mutce nelci loinu
kasta'a noi kansa lei menli prenu

ni'o mi ckuzdacertu gi'e bancertu gi'e circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk. pe vi la cladaplun. .i pu
tadni loi nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu gasnu cu zu'o bantadni .i mi
steci nelci lezu'o tadni la lojban.

.i .e'o ko dunda lemi nu rinsa kei la kyrtis. .e la djak. danyvan.

.i mi du la pitr.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Two letters to Deb Wunder
by T. Peter Park

coi deb.

.i mi du la tipitr. park. .i mi ckuzdacertu gi'e bancertu gi'e circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk.
pe vi la cladaplus. .i mi pu tadni loi nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu
gasnu cu zu'o bantadni

ni'o lemi'o nu fonkasta'a pu mutce pluka mi .i mi mutce nelci loi menli je zdile nu kasta'a

ni'o mi vi benji re jbociksi selsku do .i mi pu ciska ri .i .a'o ri ba pluka do

.i mi du la pitr.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

coi deb.

9

.i mi pu mutce nelci lenu penmi do .ije mi pu mutce nelci lenu penmi la lojbab. .e la noras. .e la. .atlstan. .e
la .abis. .e la .erik. TIdeman. .e la .art. .uiners. .e la morokos.

ni'o ledo ka prenu cu mutce pluka mi

ni'o .a'u mi djica lenu do lifri lo mutce gleki je melbi ke cizemoi bendei .i mi pacna lenu do lifri lo mutce
gleki cizemoi nanca .ije mi pacna ledo naldu'e ka selzunti ledo malmensi

ni'o mi du ledo pendo poi du la tipitr.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Genesis
by T. Peter Park, corrected by Bob

.i la cev. pu zbasu le tsani .e la ted. vi lenu cfari
ni'o la cev. pu cusku
lu ko loi gusni cu cfari leka zasti li'u
.ije loi gusni pu cfari leka zasti

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Original Science Fiction Story
by Jamie Bechtel

Jamie wrote this in July, having received only Lessons 1-6, and a couple of hours tutoring at LogFest in June.
Nearly all of the grammar he uses is covered in those 6 lessons, showing how much you can do with just a little Lojban
grammar.
This is the first original Lojban science fiction, perhaps the start of a long tradition.

loi dacti poi farlu le tsani

mi pupu platu lenu viska lo skina poi se cmene be le latmo cmene be loi xirma .i lera cmene du zo ekuus.

.i mi stali lemi kumfa ki'u lo vlipa ke bratu carvi .i mi tcidu lo cukta ki'u la'edi'u

.i mi tirna lo cladu pe vi le gapru loldi .i mi bajra ra .i le savru krasi cu barda bratu .i ri pu farlu klama fo le
drudi fi le tsani

.i mi cikre le drudi kalri

.i mi tirna lo du'e savru pe vi le danmo tubli

.i mi bajra le danmo tubli kalri gi'e zgana lo bratu .i mi na kakne lenu cikre kei mu'i leka tcima

.i savru vi le cnita loldi .i le savru cu na rarna .i mu'i la'edi'u mi cu terpa .i mi na birti catlu.

.i lo dukse cizra prenu cu sanli ta .i ra dukse barda ke blabi kubli gi'e ponse lo dukse ni moklu.

.i ra pu farlu le tsani .i mi zgana lo drata ke cizra dacti poi farlu le tsani .i nalci since

i pa lera moklu cu bacru lu ko na terpa .i le jmive ranji temci po'e ro lemi prenu cu mentu li paci .i mi na kakne lenu
mi xrani li'u

.i mi cu se spaji lenu le cizra prenu cu cuksu fo la lojban

.i le tcima cu manku ri'anai la gaicac.

ni'oni'o ve'a loi citri ku loi prenu pu viska loinu cizra dacti carvi .i loi prenu cu viska lonu banfi carvi .i lonu
curnu carvi .i lonu lijda dacti carvi

10

ni'o mi puzu penmi lo tordu nanmu .i ri krici lu da poi loi prenu cu krici cu fasnu li'u .i lu la'edi'u ca na fasnu
seja'e ma li'u se cpedu mi .i lu ma'a krici loi saske .enai loi lijda li'u

ni'oni'o le cizra prenu cu morsi .i le since cu citka le morsi cizra .i ba la'edi'u le since cu gapci

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Re-translation of a Paragraph by JCB in Scientific American
by T. Peter Park

Short story from James Cooke Brown, "Loglan", Scientific American, June, 1960, p. 61:

Lojban version:

le le jenmi gidva goi ko'e ge'u girzu lidne goi ko'a pu cusku leko'a ka selpluka leko'a nu cusku leko'a ka puzuzai djuno
le fatci .i ko'a pu tsali cusku lu ko'e .ia na tcica mi ri'anai leko'e nu troci li'u gi'e pu minde leko'e noi du zenono
prenu ku'o ka pinfu leko'e kumfa

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roswell, New Mexico, 1947
by T. Peter Park

le varjenmi sonlidne goi ko'a pu skicu le seljanli volcukla ko'e goi le varsonci .e le skeprenu ku lo kensa marce gi'e
pu skicu le ze morsi ke re'atra xadni poi pupu va se facki .i ko'a pu kajde ko'e lu loka jecta snura cu se sarcu loka
mulno mipri noi srana ti li'u

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Short Lesson in Office Politics
by T. Peter Park, corrected by Nora

The preceding pieces by T. Peter use fairly straight-forward grammar, and are relatively short. There were minor
errors, of the types discussed in the mini-grammar discussions at the end of this issue, but T. Peter gets full credit
for the work: he did quite well. This translation is considerably longer, and uses more complex grammar. Nora had to
make substantial changes to make it both grammatical and to mean what T. Peter indicated in his translation. Since we
didn't have time to get T. Peter's approval of the changes before publication, Nora is also listed in the credits.

tordu tadnyspi co srana lo pu'u briju selturni

ni'o loi jikcecmu senlanli noi la .erix. from. e la deivid. rizman. e la .arlin. rasel. xokcaild. mupli cu jinvi lenu
lenu se cinmo seljitro fa loi jibgunka cu ralju mupli lo jikca nalzifre

.i le senlanli cu skicu leka bapli pe leka roroi cisma .e leka roroi pluka gasnu

.i le cukta poi se cmene lu nu camrivbi leka zifre li'u pe ci'a la from. ge'u .e lu le sepci'o so'irpre vau li'u pe ci'a
la rizman. ge'u .e lu le seljitro risna po'a vau li'u pe ci'a la xokcaild. cu skicu gi'e senlanli vau le nalrarna ke
cinmo nu jitro po'u ru

.i loi ta'e pluka gasnu ke briju je zarci gunka na'o klesi se fendi fi re frica girzu

.i loi pamoi girzu gunka so'eroi xendo gasnu fi loi kansa gunka gi'e milxe pendo je sidju gasnu fi loi tervecnu .a loi
selselfu

.i loi remoi girzu gunka roroi carmi pluka je pendo je cisma je clite simlu gasnu fi loi tervecnu .a loi selselfu gi'e
so'iroi jursa je minde gasnu fi loi kansa gunka

.i loi pamoi girzu gunka cu traji vajni jinvi loi se cinmo be loi kansa gunka gi'e so'iroi milxe lanzu bo simsa jinvi
sera'a loi kansa gunka

.i loi gunka po'u ra cu gungri cmima jundi gunka

11

.i loi remoi girzu gunka cu traji vajni jinvi loi terzukte fi le kagni gi'e lazni ja nalpendo jinvi sera'a loi ckamu
carmi ke pluka je sutra ke'e gasnu gunka gi'e ckamu vajni jinvi sera'a le se cinmo be loi kansa gunka

.i pisu'o loi pamoi girzu gunka no'u loi gungri cmima jundi gunka ku mabla bo po'i ganxo bo cinba po'a je ke drata gunka
bradi ke'e jinvi sera'a loi remoi girzu gunka

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Symbolic Logic Problem by Lewis Carroll
translated by Sylvia Rutiser

This translation was Sylvia's 'final examination' from the Lojban class, and she did quite well, though some problems
were later identified in discussions with pc. In going over the translation in class, we discussed how to write this
logical material in a more 'logical' form, adding the answer. Bob took notes and expanded to include the full text of
Carroll's original, which was stated as a logic problem with solution, and stipulated symbols to be used for the various
propositions.

ro da poi na mulno leka melbi claxu ka'e se stuzi lo vitke se zdile kumfa

.i no da poi se jadni lo silna cu mulno leka sudga

.i no da poi na mulno leka na cilmo ka'e se stuzi lo vitke se zdile kumfa

.i ro da poi lumci minji cu se stuzi lo xamsi korbi

.i no da poi se zbasu fi lo calku jemna cu mulno leka melbi claxu

.i ro da poi se stuzi lo xamsi korbi cu se jadni lo silna

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob's expansion and correction:

leflogji nabmi ci'a la lu,is. keral. vau

ni'osa'a faisa'a

ni'o de'e se cmima lo nalsucta jufra noi zo'e stidi lenu ke'a selru'a co nibypoi. .i lo se nibli cu se facki ko

ni'osa'a faisa'a

ni'o muremo'o tu'e

pamai ro da poi na mulno leka claxu loika melbi cu selcu'i co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa

.ije remai no da poi se jadni lo silna cu su'oroi mulno leka sudga

.ije cimai no da selcu'i .ei co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa gi'enai mulno leka na cilmo

.ije vomai ro da poi jinru minji cu roroi selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi

.ije mumai no da poi se zbasu fi lo calku jmepilka cu mulno leka claxu loika melbi

.ije xamai ro da poi selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi cu bapu'i se jadni lo silna
tu'u

ni'o ru'u roda dacti .ije ly .abu. du lu'elu mulno leka claxu loika melbi li'u .ije ly by. du lu'elu jinru minji li'u
.ije ly cy. du lu'elu se jadni lo silna li'u .ije ly dy. du lu'elu selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi li'u .ije ly .ebu. du
lu'elu se zbasu fi lo calku jemna pilka li'u .ije ly xy. du lu'elu mulno leka sudga li'u seisa'a ri mintu leka sudga
.ije ly ky. du lu'elu selcu'i co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa li'u

ni'osa'a faisa'a

12

ni'o danfu

.isa'a faisa'a

.i muremo'o ni'ida'uku ro da poi jinru minji cu na se zbasu fi le calku jemna pilka

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Open Window by Saki
translated by Athelstan

This was Athelstan's 'final examination' from the class, and an excellent piece of work indeed. Most of the piece was
written before the latest grammar change was approved, and Athelstan missed the class session on tense. As a result,
Bob and Nora have updated Athelstan's work to the current grammar before publication, with Athelstan having gone over
and approved most of the changes. The piece serves as an excellent tutorial on many more complex parts of the grammar.
You will want to note in the translation several cmavo and grammar features that are not yet well-documented anywhere
else. This piece is worth the considerable time it will take you to look up gismu and cmavo, analyze tanru and lujvo,
and make your best guesses as to the grammatical meaning, then checking with our double-checked word-for-word
translation and Saki's original English. We are providing a mini-cmavo list as a supplement to this issue to aid in
your study.

This is a long piece, and some of the grammar is quite complex, perhaps even more complex than 'natural' fluent Lojban
will be, since Athelstan was trying to capture the style, sentence order, and flavor, of Saki's writing. Thus some
sentences are longer and more complex than they might need to be. Yet the Lojban is roughly the same length as the
English.

Please notify us if you are totally confused by any construct. None of us are perfect at Lojban yet, and even work
checked by three goods Lojbanists could still have errors and strangeness within. Your comments are appreciated.

mele kalri canko ci'a la sakis. vau

ni'oni'o lu lemi rirme'i bazi dizlo klama doi mestr.natl. li'u se bacru le clite ke jikca kufra citni'u noi ke'a li

pamu cu nanca .i lu .ei do troci lenu do cabi'ibaxipa renvi lenu mi jikca li'u se bacru

.i la fremtn.natl. goi fo'a troci lenu cusku le drani poi ke'a cu ge cusku pluka le cavizi tunbyti'u gi nake jikca

xlali le bavizi rirme'i .i secau lenu fo'a cusku kei fo'a senpi lenu le porsi nu jikri'i vitke lei pu na penmi kei cu

sidju le xanka ve mikce poi fo'a ca troci co se mikce

ni'o lu ru'a mi djuno ledo bavuza tcini li'u lefo'a goi le go'i ku mensi pupu se bacru mu'i lenu fo'a ca binxo co

bredi lenu xabju klama le puxirejeva nurma ke snura stuzi .i lu do bava jikca najenai tavla su'o jmive prenu .i ledo

ni xanka kei cu zenba ri'a lenu ranji badri .i da'i .ei mi ba dunda fi do fe lei pemydjuxa'a be fe ro leva prenu poi pu

jikca se penmi mi .i su'o ri cu sei dei jetnu befi leimi se morji se'u pu mutce pluka li'u

ni'o la fremtn. puxiso'e pensi lu xu la mezyz. sepltn. ne le ninmu poi fo'a dunda fi ke'a fe pa le pemdjuxa'a ku'o

cu cmima lei pluka li'u

13

.i lu xu do pu penmi so'i le viza prenu li'u preti fi le tunbyti'u mu'i lenu ri ca pajni leni na sance jikca kei le

banzu

.i lu go'i ji'ino prenu li'u se bacru la fremtn. .i lu lemi mensi puviza xabju la REKtoris. pu le puzi nanca vomei

.i ra pu dunda su'o pemdjuxa'a befe su'o le viza prenu li'u .i romoi jufra bacru ci'o lenu selbirti xenru

.i lu ju'e do djuno le ji'inomei xu lemi rirme'i li'u ranji jmina preti se bacru le clite ke jikca kufra citni'u

.i lu go'i lo su'emei po'u lera cmene .e lera judri li'u tugni se danfu le vitke .i fo'a pensi kucli lenu la

mezyz.sepltn. goi ko'u cu speni gi'a mroselspe .i da poi na kakne co se skicu zi'e pe le kumfa cu stidi leka nanmu

xabju

.i lu leko'u goi ra banli betri cu fasnu puca le pu nanca be li ci seisa'a se cusku be le citno .i la'edi'u balvi

lenu ledo mensi vi xabju li'u vau

.i lu ki'a leko'u betri vau li'u preti fi la framtn. .i ki'u da fo le vive'a surla nurma stuzi fa lei betri cu

simlu lo fange

.i lu se lakne lenu do kucli lenu mu'i ma mi'a rinka lenu leva canko cu ranji le kalri kei le mela aktobr.

lecysoltei li'u se bacru le tunbyti'u noi ke'a ca farja'o le barda fasyvroca'o noi lamji le saurfoi

.i lu .i'e leni glare cu zmadu lo'e ni ca citsi glare seisa'a se cusku be la fremtn. .i ji'a xu le va canko fi da

ckini fe le betri li'u vau

lu tai lenu va canko pagre ku cazi le satci cibnanca purci ku ko'a goi ge leko'u speni gi leko'u re citno bruna cu

cliva zukte fi le leca djedi ku terdanti nunkalte

.i ko'a ko'a noroi xruti .i ca lenu ko'a cu ragve klama fo le rancimdre foldi fe leko'a selneirai ke cpirsnaipe

katstu kei ro le cimei cu se ri'usrutu'o lo nurcau rancimderke'a .i ca le pu kufrydukti je carvi crisa sei se djuno

se'u loi stuzi poi ke'a cu snura ca lei drata nanca cu suksa je nalseljde nalsarji .i leko'a xadni cu noroi se facki

.i la'edi'u kufrydukti pagbu li'u se bacru le tunbyti'u goi fo'e .i le voksa be le citno cazi binxo co ckaji leka jikca

kufra na.e leka ci'orja'o co dirsre remna .i fo'e bacru lu la selke'i rirme'i cu roroi krici lenu ko'a ba xruti ko'a ca

lo ba djedi .i ko'a noi se kansa le cmalu je bunre pangerku poi ke'a se cirko fa'u lenu ke'a kansa ko'a cu dzukla levi

14

nenri fo leva canko ta'i le purci po ko'a .i la'edi'u cu krinu lenu le canko cu kalri ranji fi ro le vanci pagbu pe

ze'o le ctebixtei

.i la selke'i je selnei rirme'i goi ko'u puta'e tavla mi lesu'u cliva ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u speni goi ko'e cu

kansa ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre gacko'a noi ke'a dandu leko'e birka gi la ranis. po'u leko'u citrai bruna goi ko'i

cu sanga lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u noi roroi se sanga semu'i lenu zdifanza ko'u ku mu'i lenu ko'u xusra lenu

le nunsanga cu fanza ko'u .i sei ko djuno be la'edei so'uroiku ca lei bifcau je smaji vanci poi ke'a simsa ti ko'u mi

piso'aroi pencauji'i lenu ro ko'a ba dzugre leva canko li'u

ni'o fo'e sisti tai lo cmalu nu desku .i la fremtn. surlybi'o va'o lenu le rirme'i cu so'irzu'edzukla le kumfa

nenri tai lo gunma be loi xernuncru pe mu'i lenu ko'u lerci lenu ko'u klama ti

.i lu mi pacna lenu la viras. capu zdile do li'u se bacru ko'u

.i lu ra capu carmi cinri li'u se bacru la fremtn.

.i lu mi pacna lenu do na se fanza le kalri canko seisa'a sutra se bacru be la mezyz. sepltn. .i lemi speni ce

bruna goi ko'a cu zvati le selxa'u bazi leinu seldantysazri .i ko'a roroi nerkla fo ta .i ko'a pu bartu ca lei

cimynalsai foldi seni'i lenu ko'a ba galfi fi lo naljinsa kalsa fe lemi selke'i lolbu'u .i simsa leka medo po'u loi

nanmu kei vau xu li'u vau

.i ko'u gleki rajyta'a fi leinu seldantysazri .e le cipni ka so'umei .e leka cumki loi datka ca le dunra .i ga'a

la fremtn. goi fo'a la'edi'u curve ka nalpu'a .i fo'a camtcu je su'episo'emei bo snada troci lenu fo'a galfi lenu

terta'a kei lo mroru'i ckamu nu terta'a .i fo'a sanji lenu lefo'a selvi'e capu su'episo'umei jundi kei .e lenu leko'u

kanla ru'i midyctarmu'u fo fo'a fi le kalri canko .e levu saurfoi .i fo'a birti lenu lefo'a vitke pe ca leca betri

nacykefydei cu xlafunca cunkemdimnyfau

.i lu lei mikce cu tugni ri lenu ri mikce mi fo lonu mulno surla .e lonu menli ci'ordu'e claxu .e lonu mi rivbi

roda poi simsa lonu vlile slugu'a li'u nuzba fi la fremtn. noi ke'a cu jinvi le su'episo'imei kampu jifselkri po'u lenu

loi roroi penmi .e loi paroi cunpenmi cu nuzyxagji ro lo cmalu tcila be lei terbi'a .e lei termikce .e leiri rinka je

velmikce .i lu sera'a lemi ctipla ru cu na mutce tugni li'u se mi'acru fo'a

15

.i lu xu na go'i li'u se bacru la mezyz. sepltn. sepi'o lo voksa poi cazi basti lo nalselcni nunva'u .i ko'u suksa

lenu binxo lo cikna jundi .i go'i mu'inai le se bacru be la fremtn.

.i lu ko'a vize'o klama ca .uo ku seisa'a se laucru be ko'u se'u cazi le tcatytei .i .ienaipei ko'a simsa zo'e poi

ke'a cimdre se gacri ji'e le kanla li'u vau

.i la fremtn. piso'umei desku ri gi'e carna zu'i le tunbyti'u sekai leka firsku poi se djica fo'a lenu cusku leka

ci'orkansa jimpe .i le citno cu caicta da pe vije'oza le kalri canko sekai leka lo cfipu ka teprai cu se jarco lefo'e

kanla .i sekai leka lenku jenca co velskicycau nunte'a ku la fremtn. carna le seltse gi'e catlu fa'a le se go'i

.i va'o le manbi'o vanci ku lo ci remtra goi ko'a cu dzukla fo le saurfoi vazai le canko .i roda po'u pa le cimei

cu bevri lo terdanti seni'a leda birka .i pa le cimei cu mi'arbe'i lo blabi kosta noi dandu leri janco .i lo tatpi ke

bunre pangerku ca vazi ranji leko'a jafti'e .i sekai leka sancau ku ko'a jbibi'o le zdani .i lo ruble je citno voksa

cu sagysku ra'i lei manku fe lu mi pu cusku lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u li'u

.i la fremtn. cilce jgari lefo'a grana .e lefo'a mapku .i le zdacravro .e le cmaroi kacplu .e le crane folbimvro

cu kandi selzga velplu sepa'u lefo'a xalni nu ze'o bajra .i lo relxilma'e sazri noi ke'a klama fo le dargu cu bai

nerbi'o le spabi'u mu'i lenu zu'i rivbi lo bazi nu janli

.i lu vi stuzi mi'a doi lami dirba seisa'a se bacru be le bevri be le blabi cavykosta be'o noi ke'a nerkla fo le

canko se'u noi ke'a piso'imei cimdre selgai .i ku'i piso'e le cimdre cu sudga .i ma sukybajykla le bartu ca lenu mi'a

vi klama li'u

.i lu fo'a goi lo traji nalfadni nanmu po'u la mestr. natl. cu go'i seisa'a se bacru be la mezyz. sepltn. .i pu

tavla fi leri nunbi'a .enai lo drata gi'e sukli'a secau lo litli'avla .a lo xervla ca lenu do vi klama .i lakne jinvi

lenu fo'a pu viska lo ru'ipre li'u

.i lu mi stidi lenu le pangerku cu mukti seisa'a seke smaci'o bacru le tunbyti'u .i fo'a fi mi skicu fe lenu fo'a

camte'a loi gerku .i paroiku fo'a seke jersi kalte vazaive'a lo mrofoi pe vi le ri'emla be la ganjiz. fe lo cilce gerku

girzu .i fo la'edi'u nitcu fa fo'a fe lenu caze'a le nicte cu stali vizi lo ninselkakpa mroke'a va'o lenu lei gerku ca

gekyki'a gi'e jdecisma gi'e sputu vau ve'ijega'u fo'a .i la'ede'u cu banzu lenu roda xalni li'u

16

.i leka finti loi cizra lisri ze'i lo cmalu temci cu ka fo'e se certu steci

Translations of le lojbo se ciska

Self-Description
by T. Peter Park

coi pendo
Hello friends

.i mi du la tipitr. park. poi cnino lojbytadni
I am T. Peter Park who is a new Lojban-student.

ni'o mi ckuzdacertu je bancertu je circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk. pe vi la cladaplus. .i
puzuze'uku mi tadni le nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu gasnu cu zu'o
tadni le prijypenla'u .e loi bangu .i mi pu'i tavla gi'a tcidu vau la gliban. .e la .estyban. .e la frasyban. .e la
tcoban. .e la spanban. .e la portyban. .e la .italban. .e la sfedban. .e la ruskyban. .i mi steci nelci lezu'o tadni la
lojban. .i mi mutce nelci loinu kasta'a noi kansa loi menli .a zdile prenu
I am a librarian (book-house-expert), linguist (language-expert), and historian (history-expert). I work in the
library (book-house) of Lynbrook on Long Island. A long time ago for a long time I studied modern (new-time) European
history at the University (great-school) of Virginia. My principal hobbies (non-job activities) are studying philosophy
(wise-thinking-art) and languages. I can speak and/or read English, Estonian, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese,
Italian, Swedish, and Russian. I especially like studying Lojban. I very much enjoy conversation with intelligent and/or
amusing people.

ni'o mi pu jbena la .erix. park. .e la .ilmen. park. ca la pasovopananc. vi la .estis. noi pucaze'a sepli gugde
gi'e caca pagbu le softo badyjecta .i mi capu xabju la .iunaitydsteits. zai la pasovobinanc. .i mi capu tadni vi le
slacitcu'e po'e la linbruk. .e le balcu'e po'u la .adelfais. .e le su'ore balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .e la MERiland.
.i mi pu tadni le ckuzdaske vi le balcu'e po'e la MERiland.
I was born to Erich and Ilme Park in 1941 (the date 1941) in Estonia, which was for some time a separate country
and is now part of the Soviet Megastate (big-polity). I have dwelt in the United States since 1948 (the date 1948). I
have studied in the high school (older-young-school) of Lynbrook, the college (great-school) named Adelphi, and the
universities (great-schools) of Virginia and Maryland. I studied library science at the University (great-school) of
Maryland.

ni'o mi capu ciska re lojbyciksi torselcusku
I have written two Lojban-explaining articles (short-discourses, brief-expressions).

co'o
Good-bye!

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A letter to Marcia Greenough by T. Peter Park

coi marcan.
Hello, Marcia!

.i mi du la tipitr. park.
I am the one called T. Peter Park.

ni'o lemi nu penmi do ca le midydeisa'i noi pu kansa la krtis. bruks. cu mutce pluka mi .i mi mutce nelci loinu kasta'a
noi kansa lei menli prenu
My act of meeting you at the midday-meal (lunch), which incidentally was with the one called Curtis Brooks, very much
pleased me. I very much like all the acts of talking-together (conversation) which incidentally are with some of the
intelligent people.

17

ni'o mi ckuzdacertu gi'e bancertu gi'e circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk. pe vi la cladaplun. .i pu
tadni loi nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu gasnu cu zu'o bantadni .i mi
steci nelci lezu'o tadni la lojban.
I am a book-house-expert (librarian), a language-expert (linguist), and a history-expert (historian). I work in the
book-house (library) of Lynbrook on the Long-Island. I studied new-time (modern) European history in the great-school
(university) of Virginia. My principal un-job activity of doing (hobby) is the activity of language-study
(linguistics). I particularly enjoy the activity of studying the one called Lojban.

.i .e'o ko dunda lemi nu rinsa kei la kyrtis. .e la djak. danyvan.
Please give my acts of greeting to the one called Curtis and the one called Jack Donovan.

.i mi du la pitr.
I am the one called Peter.

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Two letters to Deb Wunder by T. Peter Park

coi deb.
Hello, Deb!

.i mi du la tipitr. park. .i mi ckuzdacertu gi'e bancertu gi'e circertu .i mi gunka vi le ckuzda po'e la linbruk. pe
vi la cladaplus. .i mi pu tadni loi nintei ropno citri vi le balcu'e po'e la virdjinian. .i lemi ralju naljibri nu
gasnu cu zu'o bantadni
I am the one called T. Peter Park. I am a book-house-expert (librarian), a language-expert (linguist), and a history-
expert (historian). I work in the book-house (library) of Lynbrook on the Long-Island. I studied new-time (modern)
European history in the great-school (university) of Virginia. My principal un-job activity of doing (hobby) is the
activity of language-study (linguistics).

ni'o lemi'o nu fonkasta'a pu mutce pluka mi .i mi mutce nelci loi menli je zdile nu kasta'a
Our act of telephone-together-talking (phone conversation) much pleased me. I very much like intelligent and amusing
acts of together-talking (conversation).

ni'o mi vi benji re jbociksi selsku do .i mi pu ciska ri .i .a'o ri ba pluka do
I send here two Lojban-explaining discourses to you. I wrote them and I hope they will please you.

.i mi du la pitr.
I am the one called Peter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
coi deb.
Hello, Deb!

.i mi pu mutce nelci lenu penmi do .ije mi pu mutce nelci lenu penmi la lojbab. .e la noras. .e la. .atlstan. .e la
.abis. .e la .erik. TIdeman. .e la .art. .uiners. .e la morokos.
I very much liked the event of meeting you. And I very much liked the event of meeting "Loj-Bob," Nora, Athelstan,
Abbie, Eric Tiedemann, Art Wieners, and Morocco.

ni'o ledo ka prenu cu mutce pluka mi
Your quality of person-ness very much pleases me.

ni'o .a'u mi djica lenu do lifri lo mutce gleki je melbi ke cizemoi bendei .i mi pacna lenu do lifri lo mutce gleki
cizemoi nanca .ije mi pacna ledo naldu'e ka selzunti ledo malmensi
I want to wish you a very happy and beautiful 37th birthday. I hope for a very happy 37th year for you. And I hope for
your not-too-much being-interfered-ness (condition of being bothered) on the part of your quote blankety-blank sister
unquote.

ni'o mi du ledo pendo poi du la tipitr.
I am your friend who is called T. Peter.

18

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From Genesis
by T. Peter Park, corrected by Bob

.i la cev. pu zbasu le tsani .e la ted. ca lenu cfari
God made the sky and the Earth during the act of initiating.

ni'o la cev. pu cusku
lu .ai loi gusni ca cfari leka zasti li'u
.iseri'abo loi gusni puca cfari leka zasti
God said,
"(I intend!) Light now begins the quality of existing".
And therefore light did then commence the property of existence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An Original Science Fiction Story
by Jamie Bechtel

The italics are Bob's literal translation. The non-bold English text is Jamie's intended English equivalent. You can
see for yourself how well he did, with only lessons through Lesson 6, no computer aided instruction, and learning on his
own. The only errors in the version he sent me were some minor tense items he hadn't had lessons for (though he
guessed well), and the substitutuion of "go'i" when "la'edi'u" was correct. I corrected these errors. His story was
written before the last grammar change, I had to change "po'u" to "pe" in a couple of places as a result.
Jamie rewards us with a couple of very Lojbanic (as opposed to English) phrasings. Especially until we are
established with an international speaker base, there will be a premium on writings which go beyond expressing things
the way we do in English, and which use the features of Lojban to express things in ways difficult or impossible in
other languages. This can involve non-English tanru, a feature of Michael Helsem's writings, or the turn of Lojban
grammar that relates ideas using Lojbanic precepts. (The classic of the latter form was the translation of "A table has
four legs", using the Lojbanic place structure for 'leg' to create the form "A table is be-legged by four somethings".
In Lojban, this is "lo jubme cu se tuple vo da".)
Excellent work, Jamie!

loi dacti poi farlu le tsani
Objects that fall from the sky

mi pupu platu lenu viska lo skina poi se cmene be le latmo cmene be loi xirma .i lera cmene du zoa ekuus.
I had-planned the state of seeing a movie which is called the Latin name for Horse ... and its (the movie's) name is
identical to 'ekuus'.
I had planned to see a movie called "Equus" (which is Latin for horse).

.i mi stali lemi kumfa ki'u lo vlipa ke bratu carvi .i mi tcidu lo cukta ki'u la'edi'u
I stay at my room because of some powerful hail-rain. I read a book because of this (my staying in my room.)
However, I stayed in my room because of a powerful hail storm. Because of this I read a book.

.i mi tirna lo cladu pe vi le gapru loldi .i mi bajra ra .i le savru krasi cu barda bratu .i ri pu farlu klama fo le
drudi fi le tsani
I hear a loud (thing) which-is-associated-with at-the above-floor. I run to it (the noise). The noise origin is large
hail. They (the hail) fallingly came via the roof (as a route) from the sky.
I heard a loud crash upstairs, and ran to it. Large hailstones were making the noise. They were falling through the
roof.

.i mi cikre le drudi kalri
I fixed the roof-opening.
I patched the roof hole.

.i mi tirna lo du'e savru pe vi le danmo tubli
I hear some excessive noise which-is-associated-with at-the smoke-tube.
I heard noises from the chimney.

.i mi bajra le danmo tubli kalri gi'e zgana lo bratu .i mi na kakne lenu cikre kei mu'i leka tcima

19

I run to the smoke-tube opening and observe hail. I'm not-able at the event-of repairing, because of the weather-ness.
I ran to the chimney and saw hail-stones. I wasn't able to do repairs because of the weather.

.i savru vi le cnita loldi .i le savru cu na rarna .i mu'i la'edi'u mi cu terpa .i mi na birti catlu.
Noise, at-the below-floor! The noise is not-natural. Because of this (the un-naturalness of the noise), I fear. I un-
certain-ly look at.
There's noises below. They aren't natural, and this scared me. I carefully looked.

.i lo dukse cizra prenu cu sanli ta .i ra dukse barda ke blabi kubli gi'e ponse lo dukse ni moklu.
An excessively-bizarre person stands there (on-that). It (the person) is an excessively-large type-of white-cube, and
possesses excessive mouth-amounts.
A monster stood there. It was a giant white cube with many mouths.

.i ra pu farlu le tsani .i mi zgana lo drata ke cizra dacti poi farlu le tsani .i nalci since
It (the person) had fallen from-the sky. I observe some other type-of bizarre things that fall from-the sky. Wing-
snakes.
It had fallen from the sky. I saw other weird things falling from the sky - winged snakes.

i pa lera moklu cu bacru
lu ko na terpa .i le jmive ranji temci po'e ro lemi prenu cu mentu li paci .i mi na kakne lenu mi xrani li'u
One of its (the person's) mouths utters "(Imperative) You not-fear! The live-r continue time interval inalienably
possessed by all my people is in minutes the number 13. I'm not-able at the-event-of me injuring."
One of its mouths spoke "Don't be scared. My kind only live 13 minutes. I can do you no harm".

.i mi cu se spaji lenu le cizra prenu cu cuksu fo la lojban
I am-surprised-by the-state-of the bizarre-person expressing in form/media Lojban.
I'm surprised the monster speaks Lojban.

.i le tcima cu manku ri'anai la gaicac.
The weather is dark not-justified-by that called 12-hour.
It's dark despite being noon.

ni'oni'o ve'a loi citri ku loi prenu pu viska loinu cizra dacti carvi .i loi prenu cu viska lonu banfi carvi .i lonu
curnu carvi .i lonu lijda dacti carvi
Totally new subject. During medium-interval of the mass of history, the People saw Events of bizarre-things raining.
People saw some-events-of amphibian-raining. Some-events-of worm-raining. Some-events-of religious-object raining.
Throughout history people have seen strange objects fall from the sky - frogs, worms, and religious objects.

ni'o mi puzu penmi lo tordu nanmu .i ri krici lu da poi loi prenu cu krici cu fasnu li'u .i lu la'edi'u ca na fasnu
seja'e ma li'u se cpedu mi .i lu ma'a krici loi saske .enai loi lijda li'u
New subject. I long-ago met a short-man. He (the man) believed "Something which People believe in, occurs." "These
(occurrings of what people believe in) now not-occur as-a-result-of what?" was requested by me. "We (me and you and
others) believe in Science and-not Religion".
Long ago, I met a short man. He believed "Whatever people believe, happens". "Why don't weird things happen today?", I
asked. "Because we believe in science, not religion.

ni'oni'o le cizra prenu cu morsi .i le since cu citka le morsi cizra .i ba la'edi'u le since cu gapci
Totally new subject. The bizarre person is dead. The snakes eat the dead bizarre (one). And-after-this (the eating),
the snakes are gas.
The monster died. The snakes at the monster. Afterwards, the snakes evaporated.

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A Re-translation of a Paragraph by JCB in Scientific American
by T. Peter Park

le le jenmi gidva goi ko'e ge'u girzu lidne goi ko'a pu cusku leko'a ka selpluka leko'a nu cusku le ko'a ka puzuzai
djuno le fatci .i ko'a pu tsali cusku lu ko'e ia na tcica mi ri'anai leko'e nu troci li'u gi'e pu minde leko'e noi du
zenono prenu ku'o ka pinfu leko'e kumfa

20

The Army-guides' (referred to as they2) group leader (referred to as he1) expressed his1 state of being pleased by his1
event of expressing his1 state of knowing long-past-time the facts. He1 forcefully said quote they2 certainly did not
deceive me despite their2 event of trying unquote and ordered their2, who incidentally were 700 persons, state of being
prisoners in their2 rooms.

Compare the Lojban with the 1960 Loglan version (which bears only slight resemblence to JCB's current version of the
language):

le narmi glida grupa cefli pa sedbo koko da pa nu pluci po sedbo ko da papaca sazno le ri fekto.... ka ia no de mandu mi
ka da forli sedbo ka nu nie de pa trati ka e pa djori senini de nu lakso vi le ru kruma pe de

The chief of the group of army guides said that he was pleased to say theat he had known the facts for a long time.
"The certainly did not deceive me," he said forcefully, "even though they tried," and ordered seven hundred of them
locked up in their rooms.

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Roswell, New Mexico, 1947
by T. Peter Park

le varjenmi sonlidne goi ko'a pu skicu le seljanli volcukla ko'e goi le varsonci .e le skeprenu ku lo kensa marce gi'e
pu skicu le ze morsi ke re'atra xadni poi pupu va se facki .i ko'a pu kajde ko'e lu lo ka jecta snura cu se sarcu lo ka
mulno mipri noi srana ti li'u

The air-Army soldier-leader, referred to as "he1", described the crashed flying-disc to the air-soldiers and the
science-persons, [both] referred to as "them2", as an outer-space vehicle, and described the seven dead type of human-
form bodies which had been discovered there. He1 warned them2, quote, at least one state of polity security
necessitates at least one state of being completely secret which incidentally pertains to this, unquote.

The Army Air Force officer described the crashed flying disc to the airmen and scientists (both "them") as a space-ship,
and described the seven dead alien bodies which had been found there. He warned them, "National security requires
complete secrecy which incidentally concerns this."

Bob comments: This is quite good. I want to point out a feature that contrasts what I said about Jamie's Lojbanic
forms: T. Peter's use of "ti" in the last sentence. This is English usage, "malglico" as Nora calls it when she all to
frequently catches me doing it. Yes, "ti" translates to "this" in English. But, "this" rarely translates to "ti" which
is used only when pointing or otherwise indicating the referent. Unlike an English reader, the Lojbanist shouldn't
presume what "ti" refers to in the story, and must examine the implausible as well as the plausible.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Short Lesson in Office Politics
by T. Peter Park, corrected by Nora

tordu tadnyspi co srana lo pu'u briju selturni
Short study-piece which concerns that which is the process of office type being-governed
Short Lesson on Office Politics

ni'o loi jikcecmu senlanli noi la .erix. from. e la deivid. rizman. e la .arlin. rasel. xokcaild. mupli cu jinvi lenu
lenu se cinmo seljitro fa loi jibgunka cu ralju mupli lo jikca nalzifre

The set of those who are social-community doubting-analysts who incidentally are by Erich Fromm and David Riesman and
Arlie Russell Hochschild exemplified, think that the state of being emotionally controlled of the set of those who are
job-workers is a principal example of that which is social type unfreedom.

.i le senlanli cu skicu leka bapli pe leka roroi cisma .e leka roroi pluka gasnu

These doubting-analysts describe the property of being compelled of the property of always smiling and the property of
always pleasing acting.

21

.i le cukta poi se cmene lu nu camrivbi leka zifre li'u pe ci'a la from. ge'u .e lu le sepci'o so'irpre vau li'u pe ci'a
la rizman. ge'u .e lu le seljitro risna po'a vau li'u pe ci'a la xokcaild. cu skicu gi'e senlanli vau le nalrarna ke
cinmo nu jitro po'u ru

The books, defined as "the intense-avoidance of freedom" written by the one named Fromm and "the separate-feeling many-
people" written by the one named Riesman and "the controlled heart (figurative)" by the one named Hochschild, describe
and doubtingly-analyze this artificial-type emotion-control.

.i loi ta'e pluka gasnu ke briju je zarci gunka na'o klesi se fendi fi re frica girzu

The set of those who are pleasingly acting type office and market workers can typically be classifiedly divided into two
different groups.

.i loi pamoi girzu gunka so'eroi xendo gasnu fi loi kansa gunka gi'e milxe pendo je sidju gasnu fi loi tervecnu .a loi
selselfu

The set of those who are first group type workers usually kind act to the set of those who are accompanying workers, and
moderately friendly and helpful act to the set of those being sold to and/or the set of those being served.

.i loi remoi girzu gunka roroi carmi pluka je pendo je cisma je clite simlu gasnu fi loi tervecnu .a loi selselfu gi'e
so'iroi jursa je minde gasnu fi loi kansa gunka

The set of those who are second group type workers always intense-type pleasing and friendly and smiling and polite
seeming act to the set of those being sold to and/or the set of those being served, and often harshly or commandingly
act to the set of those who are accompanying workers.

.i loi pamoi girzu gunka cu traji vajni jinvi loi se cinmo be loi kansa gunka gi'e so'iroi milxe lanzu bo simsa jinvi
sera'a loi kansa gunka

The set of those who are first group type workers superlatively important consider the feelings of the set of those who
are accompanying workers, and often somewhat family-similar consider the set of those who are accompanying workers.

.i loi gunka po'u ra cu gungri cmima jundi gunka

These workers are work-group member(ly) attentive type workers.

.i loi remoi girzu gunka cu traji vajni jinvi loi terzukte fi le kagni gi'e lazni ja nalpendo jinvi sera'a loi ckamu
carmi ke pluka je sutra ke'e gasnu gunka gi'e ckamu vajni jinvi sera'a le se cinmo be loi kansa gunka

The set of those who are second group type workers superlatively important consider the set of those that are goals of
the company, and lazy and/or unfriendly consider the set of those that are less intensely pleasant-acting and/or less
intensely fast-acting workers, and less important consider the feelings of the set of those that are accompanying
workers.

.i pisu'o loi pamoi girzu gunka no'u loi gungri cmima jundi gunka ku mabla bo po'i ganxo bo cinba po'a je ke drata gunka
bradi ke'e jinvi sera'a loi remoi girzu gunka

Some of the set of those who are first group type workers, which incidentally are the set of those who are work-group
memberly attentive workers, derogatively anus-kissers (figurative) and other workers' type enemies consider the set of
those who are second group type workers.

The idiomatic English:

Social critics like, for example, Erich Fromm, David Riesman and Arlie Russell Hochschild consider the emotional
controlledness of employees a principal example of social unfreedom. They describe the compulsion to always be smiling
and always act pleasingly. The books Escape from Freedom by From, The Lonely Crowd by Riesman, and The Managed Heart by
Hochschild describe and criticize this artificial control of emotion.

22

Pleasantly acting office workers and salespeople can be classified in two different groups. Workers of the first group
usually act kind to fellow-workers, and act moderately pleasing and helpful to customers and/or clients. Workers of the
second group always act very pleasing, friendly, smiling, and polite to customers and/or clients, and often act harshly
or bossily to fellow-workers. Workers of the first group consider their co-workers' feelings most important, and
consider often co-workers somewhat similar to a family. They are workers internally oriented to the work-group.
Workers of the second group consider the company's goals the most important, and regard less pleasingly-behaving or less
fast-acting workers as lazy or unfriendly, and consider co-workers' feelings less important. Some of the first-group,
or work-group internally-oriented, workers regard workers of the second group as ass-kissers and/or as enemies of other
workers.

Bob: The English uses a lot of idiom that must not be translated literally into Lojban, which is one way in which T.
Peter stumbled. For example, "The Managed Heart" has nothing to do with "risna", the Lojban word for "heart", and a
figurative marker must be used, or better yet, the tanru "krastu co cilmo". T. Peter had also included "rutni" in his
version of that title, based on the description of the book as describing artificial control of emotion. But the tanru
"the artificially-controlled heart" sounds like a medical treatise on pacemakers. Always look at alternate in-
terpretations of your writings. I believe that the Lojbanic communication philosophy should be: "A Lojban speaker is
obligated to ensure against misunderstanding by any listener, including those from a culture other than that of the
speaker." If a message is not understood because of a speaker's inaccuracy, non-specificity, or cultural assumption, it
is the speaker's fault.
A related problem was with the phrase near the end "ass-kisser". The writer is not referring to a physical act -
again a figurative marker is needed. But furthermore, in a culturally neutral language, you must NOT assume that even
such as this is an insult. The mabla is mandatory.
Nora went for minimum change in correcting T. Peter. If I had been translating the piece, I would have been less
literal in the translation, describing the behavior which causes one to be labelled with this derogative in an original
Lojbanic tanru. I believe that all idiom should be similarly re-expressed, unless a premium is being put on exact
matches with the original, in which case, Nora's solution is acceptable.
You-all have the right to disagree with me, of course, on these matters. I'm not running this show, the Lojban
community is. So comments are welcome.

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A Syllogism by Lewis Carroll
translated by Sylvia Rutiser

ro da poi na mulno leka melbi claxu ka'e se stuzi lo vitke se zdile kumfa
Each something that is complete in quality beautiful-lack are innately capable of being located at a visitor-amused
room.
.i no da poi se jadni lo silna cu mulno leka sudga
No something which is adorned with some salt is complete in quality dryness.
.i no da poi na mulno leka na cilmo ka'e se stuzi lo vitke se zdile kumfa
No something which is not-complete in property non-moistness is innately capable of being located at a visitor-amused
room.
.i ro da poi lumci minji cu se stuzi lo xamsi korbi
Each something that is-a-washing-machine is located at a sea-edge.
.i no da poi se zbasu fi lo calku jemna cu mulno leka melbi claxu
No something which is made from some shell-gems is complete in quality beautiful-lack.
.i ro da poi se stuzi lo xamsi korbi cu se jadni lo silna
Each something that is located at a sea-edge is adorned with some salt.

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Bob's expansion and correction:

leflogji nabmi ci'a la lu,is. keral. vau
Symbol-logic problems, written by the one called Lewis Carroll.

ni'osa'a faisa'a
New topic (this is not really there) Continuing (this is not really there). [...]

ni'o de'e se cmima lo nalsucta jufra noi zo'e stidi lenu ke'a selru'a co nibypoi. .i lo se nibli cu se facki ko

23

New topic: The following are sets of not-abstract statements, such that, incidentally, someone suggests the-state-of
their being-assumptions of-type logical-entailment-sequence. The logical conclusions are to-be-discovered by you
(Imperative!).

ni'osa'a faisa'a
New topic (this is not really there) Continuing (this is not really there). [...]

ni'o muremo'o tu'e
New topic; (52) {

pamai ro da poi na mulno leka claxu loika melbi cu selcu'i co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa
1. Each something which is not whole in the quality of lacking Beauty is-a-permitted-thing of-type retainedly-located-at
a visitor-amusing room.

.ije remai no da poi se jadni lo silna cu su'oroi mulno leka sudga
(and) 2. No something which is-adorned-with some salt is at-least-some-times complete in quality dryness.

.ije cimai no da selcu'i .ei co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa gi'enai mulno leka na cilmo
(and) 3. No something is-a permitted-thing (Obligation!) of-type retainedly-located-at a visitor-amusing room and-not
[as well as not] is-complete in quality of non-moistness.

.ije vomai ro da poi jinru minji cu roroi selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi
(and) 4. Each something which is-an-immerser-machine is-always retainedly-located-at a sea edge.

.ije mumai no da poi se zbasu fi lo calku jmepilka cu mulno leka claxu loika melbi
(and) 5. No something which is-made-from some shell gem-crust is complete in quality of lacking Beauty.

.ije xamai ro da poi selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi cu bapu'i se jadni lo silna
(and) 6. Each something which is retainedly-located-at a sea-edge will-be-capable-of-and-have-already been-adorned-with
some salt.

tu'u
}

ni'o ru'u roda dacti .ije ly .abu. du lu'elu mulno leka claxu loika melbi li'u .ije ly by. du lu'elu jinru minji li'u
.ije ly cy. du lu'elu se jadni lo silna li'u .ije ly dy. du lu'elu selra'e selstu lo xamsi korbi li'u .ije ly .ebu. du
lu'elu se zbasu fi lo calku jemna pilka li'u .ije ly xy. du lu'elu mulno leka sudga li'u seisa'a ri mintu leka sudga
.ije ly ky. du lu'elu selcu'i co selra'e selstu lo vitke nunzdi kumfa li'u
New topic: (I assume!) Each something is a thing. (and) a = symbol-for "is complete in quality of lacking Beauty".
(and) b = symbol-for "is-an-immerser-machine". (and) c = symbol-for "is-adorned-with some salt". (and) d = symbol-for
"is retainedly-located-at a sea-edge". (and) e = symbol-for "is-made-from some shell gem-crust". (and) x = symbol-for
"is-complete in quality of non-moistness" [editorial metalinguistic statement not really there: this (the quality of
non-moistness) is the same as the quality of dryness.] (and) k = symbol-for "is-a-permitted-thing of-type retainedly-lo-
cated-at a visitor-amusing room".

ni'osa'a faisa'a
New topic (this is not really there) Continuing (this is not really there). [...]

ni'o danfu
New topic: (Observative!) Answers.

.isa'a faisa'a
(this is not really there) Continuing (this is not really there). [...]

.i muremo'o ni'ida'uku ro da poi jinru minji cu na se zbasu fi le calku jemna pilka
(52) Necessitated by the-distant-preceding statements, each something which is-an-immerser-machine is-not made-from some
shell gem-crust.

24

[Note, that in this translation, I had to improvise a way of expressing "[...]", or an indication of text omitted. We
will probably add a discursive for this, which will be more explicit than the method I used in this translation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the original is:

Symbolic Logic, by Lewis Carroll

...

Sets of Concrete Propositions, proposed as Premises for Sorites. Conclusions to be found.

...

52

(1) Everything, not absolutely ugly, may be kept in a drawing-room;
(2) Nothing, that is encrusted with salt, is ever quite dry;
(3) Nothing should be kept in a drawing-room, unless it is free from damp;
(4) Bathing-machines are always kept near the sea;
(5) Nothing, that is made from mother-of-pearl, can be absolutely ugly;
(6) Whatever is kept near the sea gets encrusted with salt.

Univ. "things"; a = absolutely ugly; b = bathing machines; c = encrusted with salt; d = kept near the sea; e = made of
mother-of-pearl; h = quite dry; k = things that may be kept in a drawing-room. [Bob: note that I didn't translate the
"things that", which shouldn't have been there.]

...

Answers

...

52. Bathing machines are never made of mother-of-pearl.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Open Window by Saki, translated by Athelstan

Struck-through words in the Lojban text are elidable terminator cmavo that are not required for grammaticality, but may
have been included for clarity to the reader, or for stylistic reasons. Their inclusion does not change the meaning of
the text. The first paragraph has been marked in accordance with our suggested directions, as an example of the
procedure. The first few paragraphs of the English have been parenthesized to show Lojban bridi sub-sentences in the
re-translation.

mele kalri canko ci'a la sakis. vau
Pertaining to the open window, written by the one called Saki.
The Open Window, by Saki

ni'oni'o lu lemi rirme'i bazi dizlo klama doi mestr.natl. li'u se bacru le clite ke jikca kufra citni'u noi ke'a li pamu
cu nanca .i lu .ei do troci lenu do cabi'ibaxipa renvi lenu mi jikca li'u se bacru

[ni'oni'o "lu [lemi rirme'i bazi dizlo klama doi mestr.natl.] li'u" se bacru le clite ke jikca kufra citni'u noi <ke'a
li pamu cu nanca >] [.i "lu [.ei do troci lenu {do cabi'ibaxipa renvi lenu {mi jikca}}] li'u" se bacru]

"My parental-sister will-shortly low-go, O Mr. Nuttel." is uttered by the polite, socially-comfortable young-woman
such that (she is 15 years in duration). "(Obligation!) You attempt that (you now-till-later1 survive (my
socializing))." is uttered.
"My aunt will be down presently, Mr. Nuttel," said a very self-possessed young lady of fifteen; "in the meantime
you must try and put up with me."

25

.i la fremtn.natl. goi fo'a troci lenu cusku le drani poi ke'a cu ge cusku pluka le cavizi tunbyti'u gi nake jikca xlali
le bavizi rirme'i .i secau lenu fo'a cusku kei fo'a senpi lenu le porsi nu jikri'i vitke lei pu na penmi kei cu sidju
le xanka ve mikce poi fo'a ca troci co se mikce

[.i la fremtn.natl. =goi= fo'a troci lenu {cusku le drani poi <ke'a cu ge [cusku pluka le cavizi tunbyti'u] gi [nake
jikca xlali le bavizi rirme'i]>}] [.i secau lenu {fo'a cusku kei} fo'a senpi lenu {le porsi nu {jikri'i vitke lei pu na
penmi kei} cu sidju le xanka ve mikce poi [fo'a ca troci co se mikce]}]
Framton Nuttel (he6) tries (to express the correct thing which is (both (expressingly-pleasing to the right-here-now
sibling-daughter), and (not socially-bad for the future-right-here parent-sister))). Without (his6 expressing [it]),
he6 doubts that (the sequential social-rite visiting to previous not-meeters helps the anxiety-conditions-treated-for
which (he6 tries (to-be-treated-for))).
Framton Nuttel endeavored to say the correct something which should duly flatter the niece of the moment without
unduly discounting the aunt that was to come. Privately he doubted more than ever whether these formal visits on a suc-
cession of total strangers would do much towards helping the nerve cure which he was supposed to be undergoing.

ni'o lu ru'a mi djuno ledo bavuza tcini li'u lefo'a goi le go'i ku mensi pupu se bacru mu'i lenu fo'a ca binxo co bredi
lenu xabju klama le puxirejeva nurma ke snura stuzi .i lu do bava jikca najenai tavla su'o jmive prenu .i ledo ni
xanka kei cu zenba ri'a lenu ranji badri .i da'i .ei mi ba dunda fi do fe lei pemydjuxa'a be fe ro leva prenu poi pu
jikca se penmi mi .i su'o ri cu sei dei jetnu befi leimi se morji se'u pu mutce pluka li'u

ni'o ["lu [ru'a mi djuno ledo bavuza tcini] li'u" le <fo'a =goi= le go'i ku> mensi pupu se bacru mu'i lenu {fo'a ca
binxo co bredi lenu {xabju klama le puxirejeva nurma ke snura stuzi}}] [.i "lu [do bava jikca najenai tavla su'o jmive
prenu] [.i ledo ni {xanka kei} cu zenba ri'a lenu {ranji badri}] [.i da'i .ei mi ba dunda fi do fe lei pemydjuxa'a be
fe ro leva prenu poi <pu jikca se penmi mi>] [.i su'o ri cu (sei dei jetnu befi leimi se morji se'u) pu mutce pluka]
li'u"]
"(I suppose!) I know your future-around-yonder situation." his6 (the subject of the last sentence's) sister had-
previously uttered with-motive-that (he6 was simultaneously a becomer of-type prepared-for the-event-of (dweller-going-
to the past2-there rural secure-places)). "You will-there socialize-not and not talk-to at-least-some living-persons.
Your amount-of (nervousness) increases caused-by being-(continually-sad). (Actually!) (Obligation!) I will give to-you
the meeter-knower-letters to each of those-there persons which (socially-were-met-by me). At-least-some of-them (those-
there persons) (This statement is true by-standard-of my remembrances) were much-pleasant-to."
"I know how it will be," his sister had said when he was preparing to migrate to this rural retreat; "you will bury
yourself down there and not speak to a living soul, and your nerves will be worse than ever from moping. I shall just
give you letters of introduction to all the people I know there. Some of them, as far as I can remember, were quite
nice."

ni'o la fremtn. puxiso'e pensi lu xu la mezyz. sepltn. ne le ninmu poi fo'a dunda fi ke'a fe pa le pemdjuxa'a ku'o cu
cmima lei pluka li'u
Framton pastmostly thought "Is it true that Mrs. Sappleton, the woman such-that he6 gives her one-of-the meeter-
knower-letters, is-a-member-of the pleasant?"
Framton wondered whether Mrs. Sappleton, the lady to whom he was presenting one of the letters of introduction,
came into the nice division.

.i lu xu do pu penmi so'i le viza prenu li'u preti fi le tunbyti'u mu'i lenu ri ca pajni leni na sance jikca kei le
banzu
"Is-it-true-that you met with many-of-the close-to-here persons?" is-a-question-by the sibling-daughter motivated-by she
(the sibling-daughter) simultaneously judges the-amount-of non-sound-socializing to-be the sufficient one.
"Do you know many of the people round here?" asked the niece, when she judged that they had had sufficient silent
communion.

.i lu go'i ji'ino prenu li'u se bacru la fremtn. .i lu lemi mensi puviza xabju la REKtoris. pu le puzi nanca vomei .i
ra pu dunda su'o pemdjuxa'a befe su'o le viza prenu li'u .i romoi jufra bacru ci'o lenu selbirti xenru
"It is true that (met-with) nearly-zero persons." is uttered by Framton. "My sister previously-close-to-here inhabited
the Rectory, before the recent-past year-foursome. She (my sister) gave at-least-some meeter-knower-letters-to at-
least-some-of-the close-to-here persons [to me]." (Observative.) Last-sentence utterer with-emotion the certainly-true
regretting.
"Hardly a soul," said Framton. "My sister was staying here, at the Rectory, you know, some four years ago and she
gave me letters of introduction to some of the people here."
He made the last statement in a tone of distinct regret.

26

.i lu ju'e do djuno le ji'inomei xu lemi rirme'i li'u ranji jmina preti se bacru le clite ke jikca kufra citni'u
"(I conclude!) You know the nearly-nothingsome (Is this true?) about my parental-sister," is a continuingly-additional
question utterance by the polite type-of socializingly-comfortable toung-woman.
"Then you know practically nothing about my aunt?" pursued the self-possessed young lady.

.i lu go'i lo su'emei po'u lera cmene .e lera judri li'u tugni se danfu le vitke .i fo'a pensi kucli lenu la
mezyz.sepltn. goi ko'u cu speni gi'a mroselspe .i da poi na kakne co se skicu zi'e pe le kumfa cu stidi leka nanmu
xabju
"It is so (knowing-about) at-most-a-little-some which-is someone-earlier's (her = 'my parental-sister') name and her
address," agreeably answers the visitor. He6 is-thinkingly-curious-about Mrs. Seppleton (her5) is married and/or
deadly-bespoused. Something that is not-capable of-type being described and which-pertains-to-the room suggests man-
inhabitant-ness.
"Only her name and address," admitted the caller. He was wondering whether Mrs. Sappleton was in the married or
widowed state. An unidentifiable something about the room seemed to suggest masculine habitation.

.i lu leko'u goi ra banli betri cu fasnu puca le pu nanca be li ci seisa'a se cusku be le citno .i la'edi'u balvi lenu
ledo mensi vi xabju li'u vau
"Her5 which is the-one-referred-to-earlier grand tragedy occurs before-during the past-years-duration of number 3
[metalinguisitic narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: expressed by the young one]. This (the occurance) is
in-the-future of your sister here-inhabiting.
"Her great tragedy happened just three years ago," said the child; "that would be since your sister's time."

.i lu ki'a leko'u betri vau li'u preti fi la framtn. .i ki'u da fo le vive'a surla nurma stuzi fa lei betri cu simlu lo
fange
"Clarify: Her5 tragedy?" is-a-question by Framton. Justified by something, under-conditions-of the here-area
relaxingly-rural place, tragedies seem-to-be strange things.
"Her tragedy" asked Framton; somehow in this restful country spot tragedies seemed out of place.

.i lu se lakne lenu do kucli lenu mu'i ma mi'a rinka lenu leva canko cu ranji le kalri kei le mela aktobr. lecysoltei
li'u se bacru le tunbyti'u noi ke'a ca farja'o le barda fasyvroca'o noi lamji le saurfoi
"Probable-that you are being-curious about the-state-whereby: for-what-motive me-and-others cause (the there-window
continuing-as the open one) under-conditions the October late-sun-time interval." is-uttered-by the sibling-daughter,
who-incidentally she is direction-showing the large french-door-window which-is-incidentally adjacent-to the grassy-
field.
"You may wonder why we keep that window wide open on an October afternoon," said the niece, indicating a large
French window that opened onto a lawn.

.i lu .i'e leni glare cu zmadu lo'e ni ca citsi glare seisa'a se cusku be la fremtn. .i ji'a xu le va canko fi da ckini
fe le betri li'u vau
"(Reluctant acceptance!) The amount of warmth is more than the-typical amount-of present-season-warmth [metalinguisitic
narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: expressed by Framton.]. Also-is-it-true: the there-window, by some
relation, is-related-to the tragedy."
"It is quite warm for the time of the year," said Framton; "but has that window got anything to do with the
tragedy?"

lu tai lenu va canko pagre ku cazi le satci cibnanca purci ku ko'a goi ge leko'u speni gi leko'u re citno bruna cu cliva
zukte fi le leca djedi ku terdanti nunkalte
"By method of the there-window passing-through, right-at-the-time-of the exactly three-year before thing, they1,
who are defined as both her5 spouse and her5 two young-brothers, leavingly-acted-with-purpose-of the the-then-day's
projectile-firing event-of-hunting.
.i ko'a ko'a noroi xruti .i ca lenu ko'a cu ragve klama fo le rancimdre foldi fe leko'a selneirai ke cpirsnaipe
katstu kei ro le cimei cu se ri'usrutu'o lo nurcau rancimderke'a
They1 themselves1 never returned. (They never returned themselves.) During the event of their1 across-going via
the softly-moist-dirt field to their1 be-fond-most type of bird-snipe hunter-site, each-of the three-some is
restrainingly-surrounding-swallowed by a secure-without softly-most-dirt-cavity.
.i ca le pu kufrydukti je carvi crisa sei se djuno se'u loi stuzi poi ke'a cu snura ca lei drata nanca cu suksa je
nalseljde nalsarji .i leko'a xadni cu noroi se facki .i la'edi'u kufrydukti pagbu li'u
During the in-the-past comfortably-opposite and rainy summer (it is known) places which they are secure during
other years are suddenly and not-warnedly non-supporters. Their1 bodies are never discovered. That (that their
bodies are never discovered) is the uncomfortably-opposite part."

27

se bacru le tunbyti'u goi fo'e
is uttered by the sibling-daughter which defines she7.

.i le voksa be le citno cazi binxo co ckaji leka jikca kufra na.e leka ci'orja'o co dirsre remna .i fo'e bacru lu la
selke'i rirme'i cu roroi krici lenu ko'a ba xruti ko'a ca lo ba djedi
The voice of the young one sometime-near-this becomes of-type characterized by socially-comfortable-ness-not and
emotion-showingness of-type interruptingly-erringly human. She7 utters "Pitied Parent-Sister always believes that
they1 will return themselves1 during some future day.
.i ko'a noi se kansa le cmalu je bunre pangerku poi ke'a se cirko fa'u lenu ke'a kansa ko'a cu dzukla levi nenri fo
leva canko ta'i le purci po ko'a .i la'edi'u cu krinu lenu le canko cu kalri ranji fi ro le vanci pagbu pe ze'o le
ctebixtei
They1, incidentally accompanied by the small and brown Spanish-dog (spaniel) that it is lost associated-with-event-
of it accompanying them1, are walkingly-going to this-here inside via that-there window in-manner-of the past of
theirs1. This (the walkingly-going) is-the-reason-for the window open-continuing during each of the evening-parts
which-are until-the night-become-time-intervals.

.i la selke'i je selnei rirme'i goi ko'u puta'e tavla mi lesu'u cliva ne pu'e lenu ge leko'u speni goi ko'e cu
kansa ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre gacko'a noi ke'a dandu leko'e birka gi la ranis. po'u leko'u citrai bruna goi
ko'i cu sanga lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u noi roroi se sanga semu'i lenu zdifanza ko'u ku mu'i lenu ko'u
xusra lenu le nunsanga cu fanza ko'u
Pitied-And-Liked Parental-Sister (her5) was-habitually talking to me about the nature of leaving which-
incidentally-is of-the-process-of both {her5 spouse (him2) accompanyingly-possessing his2 white, water-not-
penetrating, cover-coat, which-incidentally hangs-from his2 arm} and Ronnie, who-is her5 young-most brother (him3),
singing, "O Bertie, with-what-motive, you leap?" which-incidentally always is-sung motivating the amusing-annoyance
of her5, and motivated-by her5 asserting that the singing annoys her5.
[Bob: Yes - that was all one sentence. The English would be equally confusing to someone who didn't know the
language. This one took a lot of work on Athelstan's, Nora's, and my part, to get it to both parse and match the
English. Hopefully, few Lojban speakers will talk in the manner of this young lady. Given the difficulty of the
sentence, let me show it properly grouped according to our method (Using subscripts in a sentence that is this
complex may help you keep track of the pieces. While I'm not doing it, you can even subscript the sumti within
each bridi so as to keep track of them.:
[.i la selke'i je selnei rirme'i =goi= ko'u puta'e tavla mi lesu'u {cliva} =ne= pu'e lenu {1ge <1leko'u speni =goi=
ko'e cu kansa ponse leko'e blabi je jacnalgre gacko'a noi <2ke'a dandu leko'e birka>2>1 gi <3la ranis. =po'u=
leko'u citrai bruna =goi= ko'i cu sanga "lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u" noi <4roroi se sanga semu'i lenu
{zdifanza ko'u} ku mu'i lenu {ko'u xusra lenu {le nunsanga cu fanza ko'u}}>4>3}1]
Did that help? No? Oh well! It will eventually make sense.]

.i sei ko djuno be la'edei so'uroiku ca lei bifcau je smaji vanci poi ke'a simsa ti ku'o mi piso'aroi pencauji'i
lenu ro ko'a ba dzugre leva canko li'u
(Know the-referent-of-this-statement!) At-least-some-times, during breeze-without, quiet, evenings that they (the
evenings) are-similar-to this, I almost-always thinking-withoutly-opine-that the-event-of each-of-them will
walkingly-penetrate that-there window."

"Out through that window, three years ago to a day, her husband and her two younger brothers went off for their
day's shooting. They never came back. In crossing the moor to their favourite snipe-shooting ground they were all en-
gulfed in a treacherous piece of bog. It had been that dreadful wet summer, you know, and places that were safe in
other years gave way suddenly without warning. Their bodies were never recovered. That was the dreadful part of it."
Here the child's voice lost its self-possessed note and became falteringly human. "Poor Aunt always thinks that they
will come back some day, they and the little brown spaniel that was lost with them, and walk in at that window just as
they used to do. That is why the window is kept open every evening till it is quite dusk. Poor dear Aunt, she has
often told me how they went out, her husband with his white waterproof coat over his arm, and Ronnie, her youngest
brother, singing, 'Bertie, why do you bound?' as he always did to tease her, because she said it got on her nerves. Do
you know, sometimes on still, quiet evenings like this, I almost get a creepy feeling that they will all walk in through
that window--".

ni'o fo'e sisti tai lo cmalu nu desku .i la fremtn. surlybi'o va'o lenu le rirme'i cu so'irzu'edzukla le kumfa nenri
tai lo gunma be loi xernuncru pe mu'i lenu ko'u lerci lenu ko'u klama ti
She7 ceases in-the-manner-of small-shaking. Framton relaxingly-becomes under-conditions-of the parent-sister many-
act-walk-going to the room-inside in-the-manner-of a mass of Regret-utterings which-are motivated-by her being late at
going here.

28

She broke off with a little shudder. It was a relief to Framton when the aunt bustled into the room with a whirl
of apologies for being late in making her appearance.

.i lu mi pacna lenu la viras. capu zdile do li'u se bacru ko'u
"I hope Vera has been amusing-to you." is-uttered-by her5.
"I hope Vera has been amusing you?" she said.

.i lu ra capu carmi cinri li'u se bacru la fremtn.
"The earlier-referent (she) has-been intensely-interesting." is uttered by Framton.
"She has been very interesting," said Framton.

.i lu mi pacna lenu do na se fanza le kalri canko seisa'a sutra se bacru be la mezyz. sepltn. .i lemi speni ce bruna
goi ko'a cu zvati le selxa'u bazi leinu seldantysazri .i ko'a roroi nerkla fo ta .i ko'a pu bartu ca lei cimynalsai
foldi seni'i lenu ko'a ba galfi fi lo naljinsa kalsa fe lemi selke'i lolbu'u .i simsa leka medo po'u loi nanmu kei vau
xu li'u vau
"I hope that you are-not-annoyed-by the open-window [metalinguisitic narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted:
quickly-is-uttered-by Mrs. Seppleton]. My {spouse, brothers} (they1) are-at the-place-of-habitation immediately-after
the projectile-firer-operations. They1 always in-come vi'a that-there. They1 were outside during the moist-non-
supporting-fields logically-necessitating-that they1 will modify, into non-clean chaos, my pitied floor-cloth.
(Observative!) Similar-to the-qualities which pertain-to you-who-are-Man. (Is this sentence true?)
"I hope you don't mind the open window," said Mrs. Sappleton briskly; "my husband and brothers will be home
directly from shooting, and they always come in this way. They've been out for snipe in the marshes today, so they'll
make a fine mess over my poor carpets. So like you menfolk, isn't it?"

.i ko'u gleki rajyta'a fi leinu seldantysazri .e le cipni ka so'umei .e leka cumki loi datka ca le dunra .i ga'a la
fremtn. goi fo'a la'edi'u curve ka nalpu'a .i fo'a camtcu je su'episo'emei bo snada troci lenu fo'a galfi lenu terta'a
kei lo mroru'i ckamu nu terta'a .i fo'a sanji lenu lefo'a selvi'e capu su'episo'umei jundi kei .e lenu leko'u kanla
ru'i midyctarmu'u fo fo'a fi le kalri canko .e levu saurfoi .i fo'a birti lenu lefo'a vitke pe ca leca betri
nacykefydei cu xlafunca cunkemdimnyfau
She5 happily continue-talks about the projectile-firer-operations and the bird few-some-ness and the possibility of Duck
during the winter. To-observer Framton (he6), this (the happily-continue-talking) is pure unpleasantness. He6
intensely-needs, and at-most-mostly succeedingly, tries that he6 modifies the subject-talking-about into some dead-
spiritually-less subject-talking-about. He6 is-conscious-of his6 host has-been at-most-a-little attending and her5 eyes
continuously middle-look-moving from him to the open window and the-yonder grass-fields. He6 is certain that his6 visit
that is-during the-present tragedy year-recurring-day is a-bad-luck random-type-of-fate-occurance.
She rattled on cheerfully about the shooting and the scarcity of birds, and the prospects for duck in the winter.
To Framton it was all purely horrible. He made a desperate but only partially successful effort to turn the talk onto a
less ghastly topic; he was conscious that his hostess was giving him only a fragment of her attention, and her eyes were
constantly straying past him to the open window and the lawn beyond. It was certainly an unfortunate coincidence that
he should have paid his visit on this tragic anniversary.

.i lu lei mikce cu tugni ri lenu ri mikce mi fo lonu mulno surla .e lonu menli ci'ordu'e claxu .e lonu mi rivbi roda poi
simsa lonu vlile slugu'a li'u nuzba fi la fremtn. noi ke'a cu jinvi le su'episo'imei kampu jifselkri po'u lenu loi roroi
penmi .e loi paroi cunpenmi cu nuzyxagji ro lo cmalu tcila be lei terbi'a .e lei termikce .e leiri rinka je velmikce .i
lu sera'a lemi ctipla ru cu na mutce tugni li'u se mi'acru fo'a
"The doctors agree with themselves that they treat me by complete-relaxing and mental emotional-excess being-without and
my avoiding all-somethings which are-similar-to violent muscle-working." is-news according-to Framton, who opines the
at-most-much-somely-common false-belief which-is-that Never-Meeter and Once Chance-Meeter is news-hungry-for all small-
details of the illnesses and their (the illnesses) causes and treatments. "Pertaining-to my eater-plan, the much-
earlier-mentioned not-muchly-agree" is additionally-said by him6.
"The doctors agree in ordering me complete rest, an absence of mental excitement, and avoidance of anything in the
nature of violent exercise," announced Framton, who laboured under the tolerably widespread delusion that total
strangers and chance acquaintances are hungry for the least detail of one's ailments and infirmities, their cause and
cure. "On the matter of diet they are not so much in agreement," he continued.

.i lu xu na go'i li'u se bacru la mezyz. sepltn. sepi'o lo voksa poi cazi basti lo nalselcni nunva'u .i ko'u suksa lenu
binxo lo cikna jundi .i go'i mu'inai le se bacru be la fremtn.

29

"Is-it-true-that not-this (the not-much-agreement) is so." is uttered by Mrs. Seppleton, using a voice that just-then
replaces a not-interested breath. She5 is sudden in becoming an alert-attender. This (the sudden becoming) is not-
motivated-by the utterance of Framton.
"No?" said Mrs. Sappleton, in a voice which only replaced a yawn at the last moment. Then she suddenly brightened
into alert attention -- but not to what Framton was saying.

.i lu ko'a vize'o klama ca .uo ku seisa'a se laucru be ko'u se'u cazi le tcatytei .i .ienaipei ko'a simsa zo'e poi ke'a
cimdre se gacri ji'e le kanla li'u vau
"They1 here-approachingly come now (Completion!) [metalinguisitic narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: is-
loudly-uttered-by Mrs. Sappleton], just-at the tea-time. (Don't you agree?) that they1 are-similar-to some-thing(s)-
unspecified such-that they moist-dirtily are-covered up-to-limit the eye(s)."
"Here they are at last!" she cried. "Just in time for tea, and don't they look as if they were muddy up to the
eyes!"

.i la fremtn. piso'umei desku ri gi'e carna zu'i le tunbyti'u sekai leka firsku poi se djica fo'a lenu cusku leka
ci'orkansa jimpe .i le citno cu caicta da pe vije'oza le kalri canko sekai leka lo cfipu ka teprai cu se jarco lefo'e
kanla .i sekai leka lenku jenca co velskicycau nunte'a ku la fremtn. carna le seltse gi'e catlu fa'a le se go'i
Framton a-bit-ly shakes himself and rotates-around the-typical-axis in-the-direction-of the sibling-daughter,
characterized-by facial-expressive-ness which is-desired-by him6 for expressing emotionally-together-with understanding-
ness. The young one intense-looks at something a-medium-ways-beyond-the-location-of the open window, characterized-by
the nature-of a confused quality of fear-extreme being-shown-by her7 eyes. Characterized by cold-shockness of-type
description-without fear, Framton turns on-axis the sat-upon and looked in-the-direction-of it (that which is intensely-
looked at by the young one).
Framton shivered slightly and turned towards the niece with a look intended to convey sympathetic comprehension.
The child was staring out through the open window with dazed horror in her eyes. In a chill shock of nameless fear
Framton swung round in his seat and looked in the same direction.

.i va'o le manbi'o vanci ku lo ci remtra goi ko'a cu dzukla fo le saurfoi vazai le canko .i roda po'u pa le cimei cu
bevri lo terdanti seni'a leda birka .i pa le cimei cu mi'arbe'i lo blabi kosta noi dandu leri janco .i lo tatpi ke
bunre pangerku ca vazi ranji leko'a jafti'e .i sekai leka sancau ku ko'a jbibi'o le zdani .i lo ruble je citno voksa
cu sagysku ra'i lei manku fe lu mi pu cusku lu doi brtis. mu'i ma do plipe li'u li'u
In environment the dark-becoming evening, three human-forms (they1) walkingly-come via the grassy-field towards-near the
window. Each-something which-is one-of the three carries a gun which-has-underneath its arm. One-of the three
additionally-carries a white-coat, which hangs from its (the one-of-the-three's) shoulder. A tired type-of brown
Spanish-dog simultaneously near-there continues-at-being their1 foot-behind thing. Characterized by sound-without-ness,
they1 near-become to the nest. A weak, young, voice singingly-expresses, from-source the dark, "I said 'O Bertie, with-
what-motive, you leap?'."
In the deepening twilight three figures were walking across the lawn towards the window; they all carried guns
under their arms, and one of them was additionally burdened with a white coat hung over his shoulders. A tired brown
spaniel kept close to their heels. Noiselessly they neared the house, and then a hoarse young voice chanted out of the
dusk: "I said, Bertie, why do you bound?"

.i la fremtn. cilce jgari lefo'a grana .e lefo'a mapku .i le zdacravro .e le cmaroi kacplu .e le crane folbimvro cu
kandi selzga velplu sepa'u lefo'a xalni nu ze'o bajra .i lo relxilma'e sazri noi ke'a klama fo le dargu cu bai nerbi'o
le spabi'u mu'i lenu zu'i rivbi lo bazi nu janli
Framton wildly-grasps his6 rod and his6 cap. The nest-front-door, the small-rock car-route, and the front field-wall-
door, dimly observed route-points which-are-parts-of his6 panicky away-running. A two-wheeled-vehicle operator who is
going along the road forcedly inside-becomes the plant-wall motivated-by the typical-one's avoiding of an imminent
collision.
Framton grabbed wildly at his stick and hat; the hall door, the gravel drive, and the front gate were dimly noted
stages in his headlong retreat. A cyclist coming along the road had to run into the hedge to avoid imminent collision.

.i lu vi stuzi mi'a doi lami dirba seisa'a se bacru be le bevri be le blabi cavykosta be'o noi ke'a nerkla fo le canko
se'u noi ke'a piso'imei cimdre selgai .i ku'i piso'e le cimdre cu sudga .i ma sukybajykla le bartu ca lenu mi'a vi
klama li'u
"Here sited are me-and-others, O My Dear." [metalinguisitic narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: is-uttered-
by the carrier-of the white rain-coat, who in-comes via the window], who are much-ly moist-dirt-ly covered. In
contrast, most-of the moist-dirt is dry. What suddenly-runningly-goes to-the outside during me-and-others at-here
coming?"

30

"Here we are, my dear," said the bearer of the white mackintosh, coming in through the window; "fairly muddy, but
most of it's dry. Who was that who bolted out as we came up?"

.i lu fo'a goi lo traji nalfadni nanmu po'u la mestr. natl. cu go'i seisa'a se bacru be la mezyz. sepltn. .i pu tavla
fi leri nunbi'a .enai lo drata gi'e sukli'a secau lo litli'avla .a lo xervla ca lenu do vi klama .i lakne jinvi lenu
fo'a pu viska lo ru'ipre li'u
"(He6 who is) a most not-ordinary man who is the-one-called Mr. Nuttel did (suddenly-runningly-go) [metalinguisitic
narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: is-uttered-by Mrs. Sappleton]. (Observative!) Talked about his (Mr.
Nuttel's) illnesses and-not another-thing, and suddenly-left without <some polite-leaver-words or some regret-words>
when you at-here come. (Observative!) Probably-opinion-holder that he6 saw a spirit-person."
"A most extraordinary man, a Mr. Nuttel," said Mrs. Sappleton; "could only talk about his illnesses, and dashed off
without a word of good-bye or apology when you arrived. One would think he had seen a ghost."

.i lu mi stidi lenu le pangerku cu mukti seisa'a seke smaci'o bacru le tunbyti'u .i fo'a fi mi skicu fe lenu fo'a
camte'a loi gerku .i paroiku fo'a seke jersi kalte vazaive'a lo mrofoi pe vi le ri'emla be la ganjiz. fe lo cilce gerku
girzu .i fo la'edi'u nitcu fa fo'a fe lenu caze'a le nicte cu stali vizi lo ninselkakpa mroke'a va'o lenu lei gerku ca
gekyki'a gi'e jdecisma gi'e sputu vau ve'ijega'u fo'a .i la'ede'u cu banzu lenu roda xalni li'u
"I suggest that the Spanish-dog motivates [metalinguisitic narrative/editorial insert not actually quoted: is-uttered-
by-quiet-utterer the sibling-daughter]. He6, to me, described that he intense fears Dog. Once, he6 is chasingly-
hunted, near-into-over-a-medium-interval a dead-field which-is at the river-beside of the Ganges, by a wild-dog group.
Under these (being chasingly-hunted) conditions, needed he6 to during-through the-night to stay right-in a newly-dug
dead-hole in-environment the dogs then dog-crying and warn-smiling and spitting in-small-area-and-above him6. These
(the events just described) suffice-for all someones to panic.
"I expect it was the spaniel," said the niece calmly; "he told me he had a horror of dogs. He was once hunted into
a cemetery somewhere on the banks of the Ganges by a pack of pariah dogs, and had to spend the night in a newly dug
grave with the creatures snarling and grinning and foaming just above him. Enough to make anyone lose their nerve."

.i leka finti loi cizra lisri ze'i lo cmalu temci cu ka fo'e se certu steci
The quality of inventiveness in bizarre stories smally-within small-time-intervals, is-the-nature-of her7 expert-
special-ness.
Romance at short notice was her speciality.

Letters, Comments, and Responses

from Greg Higley

...
In lesson 4A, page 9, your usage is not only illogical and ultimately ambiguous, but based upon analogous English
structures which are just as ambiguous.
...
It is possible to make sentences in Lojban that are grammatically valid but semantically meaningless: mi klama lo
bridi. A meaning might be conceivable for this sentence, but would it have any relevance? The point I am trying to
make is this: For the Lojban grammar to be valid, all sumti must be treated equally. (the 'symmetry principle')

31

Commencing further, we must assume that any sumti must statement is: "mi .ebabo la djan. klama" ("I, and later
have the same grammar after a sumti tcita cmavo, because John, go.").
the grammar must transcend meaning in order to be Greg's argument of symmetry is not relevant. Symmetry is
unambiguous. You have used the sumti tcita cmavo in a way an aesthetic principle, not a linguistic one. Most
that violates those standards. languages fail the symmetry test, and we have not made it a
Apparently - according to your usage - there are two factor in Lojban design.
distinct ways that a sumti can be treated after "ba", "ca", Also, all questions regarding the interpretation of a
and "pu". The first way is to define the tagged sumti as grammatical string in Lojban are considered semantic
being an event temporarily relative to the modified bridi. questions. Lojban is grammatically unambiguous in that its
In other words, the modified bridi is 'marked' as occurring grammar, defined as the set of rules that generate all
before, after, or at the same time as the tagged sumti. valid strings, is so constructed that no string can be
The other way is to treat the tagged sumti as having some generated by two different applications of the rules. Loj-
kind of implicit structure parallel to that of the modified ban's grammar is not defined as a transformational grammar,
bridi. An example: and sentences that mean the same thing are semantically
equivalent, not grammatically so. Thus my last expression
mi klama pu la djan. of his example, using ".ebabo" is not grammatically equiva-
lent to the others, even if semantically so.
which is assumed to be: Notwithstanding all this, Greg, who asked this question
within a few weeks of receiving the lessons, has
mi klama pu lenu la djan. klama contributed by finding an error that others with more
experience have missed. This is why 75 of you have the
The tagged sumti is presumed to be parallel to the x1 lessons already, before we publish the textbook. We need
sumti of the same bridi. But this leads to some problems. your help to catch our errors and confusing explanations.
Look at the following: You needn't be expert in the language to point out that
something doesn't make sense to you.
mi klama pu le ritli
Greg asked a couple of other questions in his letter. He
If we treat this sentence as being analogous to the first asks about the interpretation of such sentences as:
example, above - and we must do this to maintain the wall
between semantics and grammar - then we must assume it to "mi viska le nanmu vi lei so'i tricu"
be elliptically representing: I see the man among the-mass-of many trees.

mi klama pu lenu le ritli cu klama He asks whether this means that the observer is in the
?I go before the ritual goes trees, the man, or both. The answer, implied by the same
argument he used above, is that the event of seeing takes
This leads to some confusion. We could imagine a ritual place in the trees (which probably but not necessarily
going somewhere - a collection of people which I'm implies that both are there). The other interpretations
describing as a 'ritual' going to some destination from are expressed as:
some location, etc. But this is not what I'm trying to
say. I mean that my act of going occurs before the ritual "mi viska le nanmu ne vi lei so'i tricu"
OCCURS (not 'goes'). I am not suggesting anything about I see the man who is among the-mass-of many trees
the motion of the ritual, but "mi klama pu le ritli is
clearly open to that interpretation based upon your usage. and:
How do I know when there IS an implicit structure and when
there is NOT one? "mi ne vi lei so'i tricu cu viska le nanmu"
The only way to remove this ambiguity without adding new I, among the-mass-of many trees, see the man.
cmavo to represent implicit parallel structures is to use
'full' phrases such as "mi klama pu lenu la djan. klama"
instead of the unstable logic of "mi klama pu la djan."

Bob responds: Of course Greg is right. The examples on
that page and a couple places elsewhere in Lesson 4 are
malglico. "mi klama pu la djan." must mean that "I go
before 'the thing called John' occurs", which is an
unlikely statement though potentially meaningful. Greg's
proposed alternative, "mi klama pu lenu la djan. klama", is
a correct phrasing, though not the only one. You need to
study Lesson 5 to get the shorter "mi ne pu la djan. klama"
("I, before John, go."). Another, nearly identical

32

This is also covered in Lesson 5, though I'm not sure how is that there are many languages, including French, where
clearly. the sound will not be heard except possibly between two
vowels. We also have to avoid confusion with the similar
Greg also asks how to translate something such as "The 'x'.
sun moves across the sky." which is a false statement in Note that, if a native language speaker has difficulty
our physical world, but is apparently true to a non- with the 'h' sound, they are permitted to use another non-
educated observer. Lojban unvoiced consonant instead; the most likely such
There are a couple of answers to this one. The choice is the /th/ of "thistle". There have been questions
'observational' discursive "za'a" indicates that the as to why we do not have this sound in our alphabet. One
statement is made as a result of personal observation. reason is its relative infrequencies among non-English
This could be made explicit as "mi zgana lenu le solri cu languages; the other is this use as an alternative to 'h'
klama fo le tsani se ragve" (I observe that the sun is a for '.
go-er via route the sky acrossed-thing.) which puts the 4. Actually, since the Arabic alphabet is not the Roman
movement in a "lenu" clause; these latter are slippery in alphabet, the glottal stop in Arabic is not represented by
truth determination, since anything using the article "le" an apostrophe - although indeed the Arabic letter looks
refers to something by description. If I describe a cat like one. On the other hand, the Greeks, who after all
sitting in my lap as "lenu le solri cu klama fo le tsani se invented the word, use the apostrophe for none other than
ragve" in the above statement, the statement is true if I the 'rough breathing' sound, and in a roughly similar
observed the cat in my lap, and the sun is totally context.
irrelevant.
A third way, which avoids such nonsense, is to use The other issue affecting the ' is its effect on stress
"simsa" as the selbri, to make the apparentness explicit. syllable determination. Tommy Whitlock, who was involved
Then it doesn't matter whether you use "lenu" or "lonu" to in our original decision to add the ', has proposed that
describe the sun's motion - the claim is the appearance of the two syllables divided by an ' be treated as one
the motion, not the motion. syllable for determining penultimate stress. He reasons
that we were using the ' primarily to create a recognizable
diphthong of sounds that normally are not stable as
from various people on ' diphthongs. Thus "a'a", without the ', would be
indistinguishable from "a" in some contexts.
We've had a variety of comments on the ', which fall into Tommy is right about the original motive for ', but Nora,
two categories. Most such remarks ask us to drop it, or Athelstan, and Bob are all opposed to this change. One
use the letter 'h' to stand for it. Indeed we do so in the reason is that it is a change to the baseline to fix "what
machine grammar, which is written according to C program- isn't broken" - there is no clear problem with what we
ming language conventions. Not surprisingly, all of those have. More importantly, it has been pointed out that
who have proposed deleting the ' are C programmers. One of stressed syllables would not necessarily be any easier to
the arguments raised is in fact that C doesn't consider the say, or to pick out of the speech stream, and in fact, the
' to be alphabetic. It has also been pointed out that the change could result in unstable phonetics.
' is used to represent a glottal stop in Arabic, which is The advantage would be in recognizing a word like
exactly the opposite of what we are trying to convey with "ga'unrai" (gah-HOON-rai) = "highest", where the stress on
the mark in Lojban (you cannot put a pause or a glottal the /'un/ syllable makes the components unrecognizable. By
stop where an ' occurs between two vowels. Tommy's proposal, the /ga'u/ would be treated as a single
There are several arguments for our current practice. syllable for stress determination (GAH-HOON-rai); both
1. The ' is a buffering sound which is not a consonant 'syllables' would be equally stressed. The advantage is
insofar as the morphology is concerned. For people (as also its disadvantage. Linguistically, it seems likely
opposed to computers) to learn the language, it is nice to that Tommy's "ga'unrai" and "gaurai" (GAUN-rai)= "doing-
have the generalization that cmavo are of the forms CV, most" would be likely to degenerate together. Even worse
CVV, and CV'V. Since most people (as opposed to computers) would be a word like "ci'abra" (shee-HAH-brah) = writing-
think of 'h' as a consonant, using 'h' would make these apparatus, which would be pronounced (SHEE-HAH-brah) under
basic patterns harder to recognize, and the rule harder to Tommy's proposal. I find it difficult to say this word,
teach. stressing both adjacent syllables, and not turn the final
2. Since ' is a buffering sound that is primarily a vowel into that English nemesis, the schwa.
pronunciation guide, it should look like the other Debate is welcome on these points, and other proposals
pronunciation guide lerfu, which are . and , Remember that are welcome, too. However, better justification will be
none of these are punctuation marks. required in order to increase enthusiasm for a potential
3. If we used 'h', people would get the idea that you can change.
use it for Lojbanizing any English 'h', anywhere you can
use any other letter. This is also not true. ' can only
go between two vowels. Thus Michael Helsem's name must be How Many gismu Does Loglan Need?
Lojbanized as xelsem. or .elsem. and not as *'elsem. The by Jeff Prothero
reason why we left 'h' out of the regular Lojban alphabet

33

Bob's note: Jeff's original used a lot of jargon from ining the current loglan vocabulary, which represents the
earlier periods in Loglan history; I have updated these result of a practical investigation of this question
terms to the current Lojban words to minimize confusion on stretching back at least as far as Basic English, with its
his key points. However, it is clear that Jeff is vocabulary of approximately 850 words.
attempting to make a statement not just limited to our The overwhelming majority of loglan lujvo contain two
Lojban efforts. rafsi selected from a gismu list of roughly 1000 choices.
1,000 * 1,000 = 1,000,000 -- the current gismu set is used
Loglan was crafted in the 1950s. Like any good to map concept space into about a million regions. Another
craftsman, Jim Brown looked at the best designs he knew of line of evidence comes from the game of Twenty Questions,
(European languages and logic notation, mostly), took the in which player A is allowed twenty yes/no questions to
intuitively pleasing features from each, and tried to identify something selected in advance by player B.
combine them to produce something workable. The result Countless hours invested in this game have settled on
could fairly be characterized as the first human language twenty questions as a fair number to identify an arbitrary
worth criticizing. object. Twenty yes/no questions (twenty bits of informa-
Three decades later, craftsmen have largely been replaced tion) suffice to distinguish two to the tenth objects,
by engineers, who are inclined to replace rule-of-thumb suggesting a concept space of size 1,048,576. Clearly, the
imitation by design and analysis from fundamental agreement of these two lines of reasoning to within four
principles whenever possible. If human language design percent is due more to chance than skill! But this same
were an engineering discipline, what fundamental principles agreement does give us some confidence that the required
would language engineers work from? What sort of resolution of our map of concept space is on the order of
characteristics would they try to optimize? How close to one million regions.
optimum are current designs? Let's take a shot at So we have reduced our question to: How many gismu are
imagining how such an engineer would tackle a specific needed to map concept space into one million distinct
issue such as design of the gismu vocabulary. Even more regions? We presume the map is built by assigning each
specifically, what is the optimum number of words in such a gismu some portion of concept space, and then intersecting
vocabulary? these regions. The answer turns out to depend on how we
Any sort of precise analysis requires some precise pick our gismu. The smaller your tiles are, the more tiles
assumptions, typically oversimplified and somewhat it takes to tile a given room. In vaguely similar fashion,
arbitrary. We need to decide what the function of the the more specific each gismu is, the more gismu you need to
gismu vocabulary is, and what measure we are trying to provide the required million regions.
optimize. Let us concentrate on the rafsi system, and Without getting too far into information theory, we can
suppose that the purpose of the gismu vocabulary is to note that the ideal solution consists of twenty mutually
provide the building blocks for the lujvo vocabulary: Log- orthogonal gismu, each (like yin/yang) covering about half
lan's thousand-odd gismu serve to provide mnemonic names of concept space. By allowing all combinations of these
for the tens of thousands of words which (will eventually) twenty gismu, we would generate the required million poten-
form the working vocabulary of the loglanist. For lack of tial lujvo. Each lujvo would, on the average, contain half
a better idea, we may suppose that the criterion to be op- (ten) of the gismu, so the current concatenate-the-gismu
timized is the time required for a student of the language style of lujvo construction would not be practical -- if
to learn the gismu vocabulary, and we may further assume each gismu were assigned a Consonant-Vowel sequence, the
that this learning time is proportional to the number of average lujvo word would run to ten syllables! This is a
words in the gismu vocabulary. That is, we assume that, trivial problem -- it is easy to construct a positional
everything else being equal, the fewer gismu the student bit-string encoding which will reduce the average lujvo to
has to learn, the better. How many gismu do we really two syllables.
need? The interesting problem is finding a satisfactory set of
Clearly, we need a clear notion of the function of the twenty lujvo. Each must be much more general than any of
gismu set. What's in a name? In a word: a mnemonic. A the current set of lujvo -- each must cover about half of
loglan lujvo certainly does not define the concept it conceptual space. The Chinese (?) concept of yin/yang is a
labels, but is does classify that concept. The set of good starting point. Everything, but everything, seems to
gismu do not constitute a basis vector set spanning concept be either yin or yang, about half each way. One needs
space, but they do provide a Dewey Decimal System twenty such concepts, linearly independent of each other.
cataloguing concept space. In essence, the gismu set The current set of 1000 gismu can be used as a development
provides a coordinate system for concept space. The lujvo tool: One needs to find twenty concepts, each of which is
name we assign a loglan concept does not identify the exact TRUE of about half of the current gismu and FALSE of the
position of that concept in concept space, but it does remainder. These twenty concepts must be independent:
identify the general area it lives in. given any two concepts A and B from the set, about a
That seems to answer the qualitative question of what the quarter of the 1000 current gismu should satisfy both A and
gismu set does, but leaves in its wake a corresponding B, about a quarter should satisfy A but not B, and so forth
quantitative question: How fine a map of concept space do for the other two combinations.
we need? This is an empirical question, and demands an If anyone makes any progress toward constructing such a
empirical answer. One way of approaching this is by exam- twenty-gismu set, I would be delighted to hear about it.

34

In the meantime, we at least have a solid quantitative Jeff has done a reductio ad absurdum on the centuries-old
claim to make for loglan: its gismu list is at most fifty philosophical attempt to a priori divide the universe into
times harder to learn than is logically necessary! categories (the basis for all of the world's artificial
languages that are a priori systems). Lojban is a priori
Jeff Prothero only to the extent it had to be in order to be independent
221 SW 153rd #194 of culture. Efficiency was not, and should not be, the
Seattle, WA 98166 goal; lest Lojban fall below some minimum level of
redundancy needed to make human communication feasible.
Lojban is a human language; let it remain one.
Bob: Alas, I think Jeff is seeing making much from
coincidences. The reason why about 1000 gismu exist in
Lojban, Basic English, etc., is very simple; it is the Mini Grammar Lessons
round number closest in size to that of the 'basic'
vocabulary needed to get by minimally in any foreign Space and time will, by necessity make these discussions
language, and thus demonstrated in history as being a abbreviated, but we have noticed some consistent problems
reasonably learnable number of root words. To some extent among students and correspondents trying to write in
also, there is feedback between word-lists. If someone Lojban.
generates a longer list, there is pressure to explain why
there are more words needed than in the previous lists.
Jeff's analysis of semantic space as a bunch of On du
categories, each with its own word, has been proposed by
many people, but is not universally accepted as a paradigm. On "du": avoid it - like the plague. DO NOT TRANSLATE
Words may be needed for larger areas of semantic space as THE ENGLISH IS AS "du". The cmavo stands roughly for a
well as smaller ones, and these spaces may need to overlap. mathematical equal sign, and you don't go strewing equal
But such an analysis is arguable as well. signs around your English prose, do you?
The argument may be put more forcefully: while most Almost always, the English "is" marks the following word
individuals can use 20 questions to narrow down a concept as the main "predicate" if English were a predicate
in the game, this is a round number and hence to be language. Lojban is, so make that word or phrase the
reasonable. 10 questions is clearly too small; 30 would be selbri. Then translate the "is" as either "cu" or "ca"
too large. I note that probably no person actually has a depending on whether you have a good reason to specify
vocabulary of 1 million words though. It is only when you present or simultaneous (with the event of the previous
take the union of words used by all speakers of a language sentence) tense. (Unnecessary tense expression should also
that you get much larger than 1 million, especially when be avoided in Lojban; it seldom is relevant to meaning.)
jargon words are included. There are more than 1 million In text, "du" has use only to define a word or phrase.
words in English. In fact there are more than 1 million In a self-introduction: "mi du la bob.", you are defining
species of plant and animal, so words for these alone would "mi". You can also use "du" to define anaphora such as
exceed Jeff's limit, but they aren't in use by everyone. "ko'a" - it's the only way to do so when you have only
(In fact, '20 questions' has unwritten rules about speci- studied the first couple of lessons.
ficity of concept and use of jargon.) Otherwise, almost always, one sumti of a "du" bridi will
Even if there were exactly (1020) concepts in the be a quoted word or string, or a lerfu. See my version of
semantic space, this does not mean that 20 gismu would the Carroll syllogism for an example of this.
suffice. People divide some areas of semantic space more
finely than they do others, because human endeavor is not a
uniform spectrum. Thus there is probably no orthogonal set On cu
that would come close to achieving what Jeff has in mind.
Something similar has been attempted. Paul Doudna has "cu" is a separator. It doesn't mean anything (when I
reported on 'Wordtree'tm, a published attempt with less said just now to translate "is" as "cu", I did so because
than 100 gismu roots and their opposites. Every word in of grammatical role, not because of meaning.
the list is expressed as a compound of two simpler ones. In a simple sentence, there will be no more than 1 "cu"
It's neat to trace out the composition of a fairly concrete in the sentence, immediately before the main selbri. In
term - you'll find the string to be hundreds of components fact, there will always be one there, implicitly. The
long. But not practical, and the decomposed root set rules say that you can elide (leave out) "cu" if it doesn't
doesn't in the least suggest the result. cause ambiguity. Only experience will tell you all the
But even if it were possible to devise 20 orthogonal times when such elision is possible, so when in doubt leave
roots for all of language, Jeff's proposed compounding it in.
method fails the test of language. Yes a computer could "cu" does not occur between sumti. It does not occur
bit-encode and generate short composites. But human beings after the selbri to separate it from the following sumti.
can't. Lojban rafsi are easily recognizable as to what The following sumti is always identifiable by either an
they represent; Jeff's composites would need to be anaphora pronoun or a descriptor like "le", so no separator
analyzed carefully to pick them apart to the roots. is needed.

35

"cu" is very useful. Given its very limited role in the Now if the tanru you want to express doesn't fit this
sentence, it can be used to close off some of the most nice pattern, you may need "ke". Relatively common in a 4-
hideously complex grammatical constructs before the main place tanru is the grouping "(a b) (c d)", where you are
selbri, and to do so completely unambiguously. in fact, really making two tanru to express different ideas that are
that is why it is in the language: to make it easier for a non-simple, then using those pieces to make the more
reader or listener to find that all important selbri that complex tanru. An example might be "zoology textbook".
indicates just what the speaker is trying to say. "Zoology" is "animal-science", "textbook" is "student-
"cu" does occur elsewhere in a sentence, IF the sentence book". The combined tanru is "(animal-science)-(student-
is complex. Most Lojban expressed by the more advanced book)", but by left grouping, you would get "((animal-
students tends to be run at a 2nd or 3rd level of iterative science)-student)-book". By using "ke" in the middle, you
complexity, so this may happen quite frequently. When does get the grouping you want: "danlu saske ke ckule cukta" or
it so occur? "(a b) ke (c d)".
When a sumti in a sentence internally includes a sentence "ke" wouldn't be needed, though, if the right pair in the
either as a relative clause ("noi" or "poi", or as an tanru were made into a lujvo; you now have a left-grouped
abstracted clause (lexeme NU), that internal sentence is a "(a b) c". "danlu saske cu'ecku" works fine without "ke".
bridi just like the main sentence. Thus it may need a "cu" Consider making any the right side of a right-grouped con-
to mark its selbri. This is how you get more than one "cu" struct into a lujvo; they usually are natural candidates
in a sentence. for doing so, and it eliminates the need for the "ke".
Actually, 'natural' Lojban expression, sumti in relative Don't use "ke" when you don't need to. It flags in your
and abstract clauses tend to be of simpler construction reader/listener's mind that you are doing something
(e.g. anaphora or simple descriptions) than sumti in the abnormal. If you then have only a single word after the
main sentence. This is why Lojban tends to stop at 2nd or "ke" you will confuse your listener, even though it is
3rd orders of complexity. Anything more complex tends to grammatical to use "ke" with a single brivla after it - so
play spaghetti with your brain. (Translations of English don't do it.
tend to run 3 or 4 levels deep in complexity if you try to "ke" is like a left-parenthesis grouping marker. Note
match the style as well as content; English writers tend to that there is a right marker for "ke", which is "ke'e".
use complex run-on sentences - see the monstrosity in Saki (Those with lessons will have "kei"; this was changed after
for an example with 5 levels of complexity. If style isn't they were written. Change these to "ke'e" in your copies,
critical to the translation, break it up into digestible as you find them, but only where they are closing "ke" in
chunks.) tanru.) "ke'e" is almost never seen. Even when you do
Normally, if you are reading or listening in a sumti, need non-left grouping, the right side typically is a
running into the "cu" tells you the sumti is over and you simple pair, or a left-grouped triple - thus the "ke'e"
are moving on to the selbri. In a complex sentence, it is would go at the end of the whole tanru. You can always put
nearly as simple. If you are in the middle of a complex NU these final "ke'e" in. But they seldom provide any useful
abstraction or relative clause and you run into a "cu", information to the listener/reader - so don't. The only
just ask yourself: "Have I run into the main selbri of time you should use ke'e in a 4-place tanru is in the
this clause yet. If not, the "cu" marks the clause of the grouping "(a ke(b c))ke'e d", where without the "ke'e" you
selbri. If so, then you've ended the sumti, popped out to would have "a ke((b c) d).
the next lower level of complexity, and repeat the ques- You can't use a "ke'e" without a matching "ke" preceding
tion. If you get out to the main sentence, you have found it. Not grammatical.
the main selbri. This is easy once you get the hang of it, On a related point: if, in a tanru, you need a "nu" or
believe it or not. "ka" or "ni" clause that involves only a single brivla, or
even a simple tanru, this is a prime candidate to make into
a lujvo. For example, in my version of the Carroll
On ke syllogism, I had the tanru "visitor-amusement-room", where
"amusement" is the event abstraction of "zdile". If I had
"ke" is used mostly in tanru, and overrides left- not made the "nu" event into a lujvo, the tanru would have
grouping. Normally, Lojban constructs, including tanru, been "vitke nu zdile kei kumfa" where the "kei" is needed
are left-grouping. This is convenient, since most tanru to close off the "nu" so that it doesn't absorb the "kumfa"
you come up with will make more sense when left-grouped. (and any trailing sumti) into the abstraction. I get rid
But in the occasional event of right-grouping, you need of the kei by making a lujvo "nunzdi", resulting in the
"ke". Using schematics to make things easier, assume that simple left-grouping "vitke nunzdi kumfa", which is much
the letters in the following stand for brivla in a tanru. easier to read and understand. Only rarely should you
Normally, a tanru "a b c d" will group as "((a b) c) d" leave "nu" and "kei" surrounding a single brivla - its not
for modification purposes - this means that 'a modifies b' fair to the listener/reader.
and you determine the meaning of the two-place tanru "a b". Note that all these elidables and combinables might be
You then use the tanru as a modifier to c, forming a new explicitly expressed in longer form to obtain a certain
tanru. Finally the meaning of this 3-place tanru serves as rhyme or meter in poetry - "nu zdile kei" would be
a modifier to d. different in both rhyme and meter effects from "nunzdi".

36

This is probably the only case where long forms are On po'e, po, pe, po'u
justifiable.
These four words are used to attach sumti to another
sumti in such a way as to provide additional information,
On ti, ta, tu vs. vi, va, vu aiding the listener/reader to know exactly what that first
sumti is referring to. They are members of lexeme "goi",
One of the more pervasive problems is the exchange of and the right sumti is followed by a normally elidable
these words with each other. The "ti" series is a sumti, "ge'u". If found in a complex construction, these bind
the "vi" series is part of the tense construction and is with the closest sumti. Thus "le mapku .e le grana po mi"
used to inflect a selbri or as a sumti tag. Do not use is "the cap, and the rod-of-mine"; the "po" has nothing to
"vi" as a sumti - it is not grammatical: "*mi klama vi" do with "le mapku".
does not mean "I am-coming-here."; however "mi klama ti" The last two have non-restrictive counterparts, ne and
does work for this, presuming that you in some way indicate no'u, when you want to relate the second sumti to the first
where 'here' is - an accurate translation that clarifies as incidental information not needed for identification of
this would be "I am-coming to this-here." the first sumti.
The opposite situation is where more errors occur. "ti" These four words are the Lojban expressions of
can confuse if you assume it is always a translation for possession. Yes, I know I just said that "le mi cukta" is
"this". "le ti cukta" is not "this book" - you are leaving a possessive. But "le mi cukta" is IDENTICAL in meaning to
out the "le" from the translation, which should be "the "le cukta po mi" - with no qualifications. One translates
this book". You might use this if there are books in two as "the me book", the other as "the book of mine".
boxes (and hence not visible to be pointed at). You could Let us first dispense with "po'u", which is the 'identity
then point to one box and say "ko cpacu le ti cukta" - get possessive'. (This is changed from the published lessons
this thing's book. The "ti" in such a position is like a which used "pe". Change all "pe" to "po'u" and all "po'u"
possessive; compare with "le mi cukta" ("my book" or, more to "pe" in your lessons. Then change all "ne" to "no'u"
accurately, "the me book"). and all "mo'u" to "ne". These will be found in Lessons 5
To express "this book", you wish to mark the book, a and 6 only.) "po'u" indicates another identity for the
brivla, with a location. So you use "le vi cukta" - "the sumti it is attached to, hopefully giving more information
here-book" or "le va cukta" - "the there-book". to listener to help in identifying the sumti. Thus, if two
We'll address one other issue with "this", in a moment. people (Jill and John) in a room are both doctors, you
could say "le mikce po'u la djil." to indicate "The doctor
who-is the one named Jill." "po'u" almost always
translates as "who-is" or "which is". It may also be
viewed as a contraction of "poi du", although the latter
would have a different elidable terminator on the right
side of the right sumti, if one is required.
The other three are more like our familiar possessives.
Unlike English, incidentally, none of the Lojban
possessives inherent implies legal ownership. "le cukta po
mi" or "le mi cukta" says only that there is some
unspecified relationship between 'me' and 'the book'. The
germane brivla for "po" is "steci" - "is-specific-to", not
"ponse" "possesses".
"po'e" and "po'u" are best described in relation to the
non-specific "po". "po'e" specifies a close relationship,
one that is permanent or inalienable. Your mind is
inalienably yours. Your experiences are also inalienably
yours. So you can say "le menli po'e mi" instead of the
weaker "le menli po mi" or "le mi menli". Quite often, if
"po'e" is called for in usage, you will find that there is
a place in the brivla reserved for the relationship. You
can say "le birka po'e mi" - "The arm of me.", but it is
preferred that you use the place structure provided for
"birka": "le birka be mi". "po'e" exists because you may
not know the place structure (Oops!), or the left side
sumti may not HAVE a place structure. Thus, if two mothers
(Jane and Jill) have sons named John, you can say "la djan.
po'e la djein." to indicate one of them.
"pe" is, on the other hand, a looser relationship. The
germane brivla is "srana" - "pertains to". "pe" is used to
attach incidental identifying information. When visiting

37

someone else and sitting in a chair there, someone might avoid sucking any following sumti into the abstraction bri-
refer to "le stizu pe do", "the chair that pertains to di.
you". In a classroom with assigned seating, the teacher But if you want to say "This is true." about the previous
might use "po" instead: "le stizu po do", "the chair that sentence, you do not say "la'edi'u jetnu". You've fallen
is specific to you". into the trap of reference vs. reality. "la'edi'u" refers
"pe", and its non-restrictive counterpart "ne", are also to the referent of the previous sentence, not to the
used to attach any number of relative phrases providing sentence itself, which is "di'u" ("la'e", unsurprisingly,
identifying information marked with sumti tags, or even a means "the referent of ..." attaching to a following sumti;
bare 'tense/location'. "le vi cukta" is equivalent to "le it may be used like a computer language pointer, indicating
cukta pe vi". In general, if there is a sumti tag, you the attached sumti points to or describes the thing you
should use "pe" or "ne". Thus the examples used in the actually want to refer to.)
discussion of Greg Higley's question above. (There could
be exceptions - the colloquial English "the man of the Hopefully, these discussions clarify some problems you
hour" might be rendered as "le prenu po'e ca" instead of may have had. I'll find out when you send some Lojban text
"le prenu pe ca", indicating that the speaker expects that that uses them.
the person will inalienably always be associated with that
time in the listener's mind.
All of these words are symmetrical, which is why we say On Sapir-Whorf
that Lojban has no true possessive in the same sense as Report on LogFest
English. In Lojban, you can say "le birka po'e mi" or "mi
po'e le birka" - "I that am inalienably associated with the Of the four who agreed to write reports on the extensive
arm.", or colloquially "the arm's me"; the reason for doing discussion of Sapir-Whorf last June at LogFest, only pc
so would be if the listener would find it easier to actually submitted one. For those not present, the
identify you knowing that you were associated with 'the discussion resulted from Ralph Dumain's comments back in
arm', presumably an arm that the listener already had JL6, and a further selection that he submitted for
identified. "po" and "pe" work similarly, and "po'u" publication a few months later. The latter included a
obviously so. The assumption with the 'pV(V)' cmavo in bibliography; this list seemed to be slanted towards a
this set is that the listener doesn't know which of several particular viewpoint, and omitted basic works like John
possible interpretation of the left sumti the speaker is Carroll's collection of Whorf's papers, and any reference
referring to, and the sumti attached will provide useful to Sapir (I've yet to have someone tell me where Sapir said
identifying information. For the 'nV(V)' words, the things about SWH).
reverse is true. The listener knows the referent of the Seeing a need for balance, and recalling Ralph's strong
left sumti, and the speaker is supplying a hitherto criticisms of Loglan/Lojban's scientific approach to SWH, I
unstated associational information about that sumti, that proposed a group discussion at LogFest. Ideally, we would
is incidental to the main point of the statement. have discussed JCB's statements on the subject from the new
L1, but that book was not published before LogFest.
Unfortunately I didn't get to participate in much of the
On go'i vs. ti vs. di'u vs. la'edi'u discussion, so I asked the major participants to write up
what happened. What follows is pc's perceptions of the
As stated above, "this" is not always translated as "ti". session. Note that this report was written before pc had
The latter is used only when you can point to the referent seen Loglan 1. He has given me only one comment in writing
or otherwise indicate it - this is why "ti" is called a on the latter, which is also found below.
demonstrative. Athelstan, during the session, attempted to formulate an
On the other hand, you will almost always translate the expression of Sapir-Whorf that reflected the consensus;
English "I'm doing this, too." as "mi go'i". "go'i" this is also included here, although Athelstan didn't
repeats the MAIN selbri of the previous sentence (not the report on the group reaction to his formulation. So you
last selbri, which might be in a relative clause or NU get to react!
abstraction), carrying over all sumti, except those that
may be replaced in the new sentence by new values, and
carrying over the tense/location, unless replaced. pc Reports
But be careful! "go'i" has the grammar of a brivla. You
cannot say "*go'i fasnu" for "This happened". The Lojban, As for SWH, my memories of that session run something
which is grammatical, is an odd tanru, whose meaning is like this:
dependent on just what "go'i" refers to. To refer to the
event of the previous sentence, you use "la'edi'u", which The SWH session was devoted to two and a half questions:
literally means "the referent of the previous sentence": what is the hypothesis, or, better, what does Jim Brown
"la'edi'u fasnu" correctly translates "This happened". take it to be, and could it be true. There was also some
(You can also use "lenu go'i", which has similar meaning to discussion of how the hypothesis might be tested, obviously
"la'edi'u", but is likely to require a closing "kei" to tied to the first question.

38

Those who have read Whorf or even Brown admitted that be evidence that the hypothesis is correct. (Most process
what they said was pretty unclear but the general metaphysics is also done in Indo-European languages, which
characterization of the hypothesis to be something between can be taken - it is said - as being ultimately verb-based
a very weak view and a very strong one. The weakest view and so "really" pointing to a process conceptualization.)
was that having a lexical item for a thing or property A large part of the notion that this hypothesis is un-
permitted a speaker to spot that property or thing more testable, was, then, derived from the fact that it was
readily than a speaker without that item in his vocabulary. unclear how to tell either what the grammatical categories
The strongest reading was that having a certain grammatical of a language really were and what the conceptualiza-
category in a language compelled the speakers of that tion/perception its speakers really had - as opposed to the
language to conceptualize their world in terms of the onto- way they expressed it in the language. The latter seemed
logical correlates of that grammatical category. The especially an impossible task, since conceptualization is
strengthening/weakening of the hypothesis seems to be done not usually accessible except through language (or so it
by replacement first of all between "enables a speaker to seemed) and thus the test became circular.
do better" and "compels a speaker to do" and then by By and large, the Brown test (as we understood it) - to
referring to items at different levels of abstraction as look for changes in behavior/conceptualization/personality
governing: lexical item, conceptual class, construction, (in a broad sense) when a new language is learned, to
..., grammatical category. Whorf wrote about both extremes correlate with features of the new language - looked like
and seems to have placed most emphasis on the strongest as reasonable a test as was possible. The problem was, of
form - or the one just weaker - that the existence of a course, what features of the new language were to be
category made it easier for a speaker to conceptualize that relevant and what are the appropriate correlates of these
way, or perhaps harder not to. features? Brown's design of Loglan gives some clues to his
Brown's position is less clear since not (at that time - ideas of appropriate features, as noted above, but what
there is said to be more in the new edition of L1) spelled traits he would correlate with each was still unclear. Nor
out at any length (mirabile dictu!). What he does say did anyone have any useful suggestions beyond those made in
seems towards the stronger end in involving grammatical Ju'i Lobypli at other times.
categories (the importance of having only the category I should note in passing that, like earlier more formal
predicate in content words) but weaker in only postulating discussion of SWH in academic circles, our discussion
an enabling rather than a compelling character - but generated much more heat than light, with some of even our
presumably enabling a speaker of the new language to do new mildest members becoming rather abusive to some of their
things by breaking the compulsions (or at least tendencies) opponents. I think we did manage to end amicably, however.
of the old. This was more inferred from the features that
Brown stressed in his design of Loglan then form what he
said directly about SWH, although he does also stress that Athelstan's Formulation of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis
his vocabulary is culturally neutral, looking also toward
the weaker end of the spectrum of possible hypotheses. Whorf says that the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis (SWH) occurs
Another feature of Brown's view (which was not stressed in through the grammar, not the lexicon. Grammar is a pattern
the discussion) is the role of metaphor, suggesting that of increasingly complex relationships between words, and
one part of the hypothesis he is interested in is that the then groups of relationships between words, thus building a
easier it is to bring two words into grammatical rela- continuum of complexity from lexicon to grammar.
tionship, the easier it is to see connections between the If Whorf's grammatical view is some-what correct, it may
two things they represent. still be a semantic effect. In analyzing apparent SWH
On the subject of truth [of SWH], the weakest hypothesis effects towards the grammatical end of the spectrum,
was generally held to be uninteresting because a truism, semantics affects thought more subtly and less avoidably.
although some experiments said to aim at testing it were Compare Marvin Minsky's view of intelligence as a
reported to have had results taken as non-confirming progressively built complex of interactions between
(monolingual English- and Russian-speaking children sorted reactions, agents, and groups of them.
objects by color in about the same way or did not differ in
ways that matched nicely with differing color vocabularies, Bob's note: Athelstan has expanded upon this formulation
for example.) But there were some questions about just into a more quantitative view of SWH than I have heard
what those tests tested and so some talk occurred about how before. He has written this up in technical Lojban, and
better tests might be devised ("better" - it turned out, the result will be in JL11.
meaning ones that confirmed the truism.) The strongest
thesis was obviously more interesting but generally thought
either clearly false or untestable. On the false side was Discussion on Jim Brown's Sapir-Whorf Test in Loglan 1 4th
the fact that, for example, nearly every discussion of Edition
process metaphysics has been in a heavily noun-adjective-
verb language, which ought to force a static metaphysics. We'd like more opinions on what the Sapir-Whorf
Of course, most of these discussions [of metaphysics] have Hypothesis (SWH) is and how to test it. After the heated
also said that the reality they were pointing to was ulti- debate at LogFest, we were surprised that Jim Brown does
mately ineffable and beyond conceptualization, which might not even refer to 'strong' or 'weak' versions of the SWH in

39

Loglan 1. It seems that Jim's views are orthogonal to that civilization" due to Chinese grammar and the "virtually
classification scheme - which may be the most significant limitless interplay of verbal categories" found in Chinese.
theoretical advance in Jim's formulation - he has changed Dr. Brown then goes on to claim that Loglan can be used
the terms of the debate on SWH, perhaps in a direction less to test either of these formulations, and outlines a fairly
subject to philosophical and political posturing that pc detailed approach to such a test. Along the way, he points
reports has haunted SWH throughout its history. out that the nature of modern science is such that
Jim also discusses how he thinks SWH may be tested in L1. experiments must be designed to disprove a theory or model
pc, Athelstan, and I have found the test he proposes to be assuming that it is true, rather than to try to prove the
scientifically invalid, but perhaps the seed of a more model, and that scientific advance comes when such experi-
valid test. ments lead to refinements of the model that allow it to
The following, from our longer review of L1, which the more accurately describe reality.
LK10 review was condensed from, discusses what Jim Brown Dr. Brown also indicates that the 'Whorfian effects'
proposes for the SWH and the Loglan test, and why we perceived by current loglanists are not scientifically
believe it to be inadequate. The text is not polished to useful, although he then goes on to use those effects as a
the extent we would have liked, nor is it written in the means of identifying true 'Whorfian effects' in a test
apolitical, academically disinterested style we eventually population. This is but the first sign of several that Dr.
adopted for the review; Athelstan and I have ruled out Brown's remarkably cogent presentation of the hypothesis
spending a lot more time on L1 for a while. But the ideas and the problems in testing it did not open his mind to
therein should stimulate thought among those of you countless problems that he did not see. The result is that
interested in using Lojban to test SWH; they also should his detailed experimental scheme is fatally flawed.
raise questions about the nature of experimental linguistic A few brief examples are needed; this section is the
research in general - important if Lojban indeed is to be major new section of the book and covers an important part
the cradle of experimental linguistics. of the scientific justification for the language.
First, Dr. Brown suggests that a useful test of Sapir-
Whorf can be conducted with second language learners,
from Bob & Athelstan's Unabridged Review specifically American university students (not the most
homogeneous of intellects or cultures) who study Loglan,
The main discussion of the scientific rationale for the French, and Chinese in a "Summer Workshop" 'total
language takes place in the introduction and in the new immersion' environment. He then contradicts himself by de-
Chapter 7 on "Testing the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis". The ciding that this workshop should last 8 months for Chinese,
introductory section is lucid and presents the purpose of 4 months for French, and two months for Loglan (he does not
the language quite well. In Chapter 7, he then goes on to propose any standard for setting these times, like a pre-
explore a variety of formulations of the Sapir-Whorf experiment to determine how long it takes to reach a
hypothesis as he perceives it, and discusses the measurable level of proficiency using the proposed teaching
implications of these formulations for testing. methods; nor does he recognize that time taken to learn a
In so doing he nicely avoids the controversial aspects of language may be unrelated to time needed to evoke 'Whorfian
Sapir-Whorf, including the politically and philosophically effects' - the difficulty of Chinese is due more to its
issue of 'linguistic relativity' that Ralph Dumain writing system and tones, while the grammar is relatively
discussed in JL7, as well as the various attempts to divide easy to learn - so 'Whorfian effects' based on grammatical
the hypothesis into a strong and untenable form (that due structure may show up relatively sooner).
to different language structures, people can never truly Also, the summers may be awesomely long in Gainesville (8
understand the culture of another language community) and a months?), but even so, few university students are going to
weak and trite form (different languages give different be able or willing to take 8 solid months of their
perspectives, so learning a new one broadens your mind). educational program to study a single subject, even for
The formulations he chooses as best exemplifying Sapir- pay, unless that subject was their primary interest - and
Whorf are that "a pattern of relationships exists between he has specifically excluded choosing students on the basis
the cultures of certain peoples and the structures fo the of their interest in the language. (Money doesn't motivate
individual languages with which those cultures were associ- everybody, Jim!) Dr. Brown never really addresses the
ated", that "structural features of languages are seen by question of holding a disinterested subject's interest in
Whorf as limiting the domain of the possible for minds learning a language (probably the toughest problem in
shaped by them" and (actually from American philosopher F. foreign language education), except to hold out to the non-
S. C. Northrup) "a facilitory one ... notational advances Loglan students the offer to teach them Loglan for free in
... that replace other notations are facilitory", or in a workshop the following summer. Wow.
other words, that a language with a more efficient or Somewhat surprisingly, he chooses to measure 'creativity'
effective way of expressing certain kinds of ideas will as the area for detecting short-term Sapir-Whorf effects,
cause its associated culture to be richer in the realms of and not the logical thinking that is the original basis for
those ideas. Dr. Brown cites the "enabling" effects of new the language. This is actually a good choice; it is too
mathematical notations, and the relative poetic richness likely that any attempts to measure development of logical
and "deeply esthetic orientation of the Chinese thought over a short period will be colored by the teaching
methodology used and the fact of actually teaching of

40

logic, since most people are ignorant of logic, especially He indicates some of the difficulties of monitoring such
as it applies to their linguistic expression. He suggests long-term studies, but forgets the obvious one. Why would
that linguistic creativity be the basis for measurement, the students, by design not especially interested in Loglan
citing the 'Whorfian effects' mentioned earlier. Unfortu- to begin with, be expected to continue to grow in fluency
nately, he never addresses the issue on a basis of cultural and usage? Where is the 'cultural environment' wherein
development. The tests he proposes measure individual they would interact to grow in this manner? If their
creativity, and not cultural creativity. A far better test lifestyle and interactions with others do not demand use of
might be the comparative group solving of problems loglandic features that would generate 'Whorfian effects'
requiring significant creativity and linguistic interaction to be tested, such as logical competence, it is unlikely
in the target language, and measuring either speed or that any such effects will be noticed.
quality of results. As an comparative example, how many English speakers
This example shows how Dr. Brown's elucidation, while in can identify the implications of a restrictive vs. a non-
itself severely flawed, is useful in pointing to a better restrictive relative clause even a week after the grammar
approach; the above alternative test was composed 'at the test, even though that is a structure basic to English
computer' as this is written, merely on rereading the rele- grammar (as well as Loglan's). (One of our respondents
vant section. indicates that most college graduates don't even clearly
Another problem is Dr. Brown's failure to take into remember the difference between nouns, verbs, and
account the bias imposed by the teachers of these adjectives, five years after college. This may indicate
workshops. Recalling the difficulty in motivating why many Americans can't write cogently, and why these
disinterested students in learning a language, one cannot parts of speech are blending together; e.g., using 'impact'
imagine trying to teach them Loglan without engaging in the as a verb. Dr. Brown suggests, while discussing metaphor
type of word-play and linguistic experimentation that the relations, that English and European languages may be
experiment is supposed to measure. This would be evolving towards this loglandic ideal.)
especially heightened if the teachers are today's
loglanists, as Dr. Brown proposes; we all recall what
inspired our passionate interest in Loglan and would be un-
able to teach it to others without passing along that which
we found inspiring. It is unlikely that Chinese and French
teachers could be found that could emphasize the same mix
of skills and interests as the Loglan teachers of this
generation, and Dr. Brown, while addressing several other
biases, does not appear to recognize this one in his at-
tempt to convince people of the relative immediacy of a
possible Sapir-Whorf test.
Perhaps the strongest evidence of Dr. Brown's inadequate
analysis of the problem is his method of eliminating what
he calls "host culture effects". He chooses the three
languages to be taught on the basis that French is a lot
like English, while Chinese is different, in ways he
presumes are like Lojban's (He never says why Lojban is
more extreme than Chinese in ways that would increase
linguistic creativity). He predicts that this comparison
would cancel effects not due to the languages themselves,
with succeedingly higher 'Whorfian effects' in comparing
French to Chinese to Loglan students. (He doesn't explain
why this test couldn't be done with three natural languages
first, if only to prove the methodology.)
To eliminate host country effects, he then suggests that
French students be given the same program, with the
expected results to be increasing from English to Chinese
to Lojban. He also proposes a similar test for Chinese
students, but never indicates the results that would be ex-
pected (which are indeterminate with regard to his method-
ology, since English and French are supposedly equidistant
from Chinese, while Loglan is an unknown difference from
Chinese - presumably less, but skewed in a direction that
would increase 'Whorfian effects' as much the 'short
distance' would minimize them).
For long-term effects, Dr. Brown proposes a five-year
period of relatively low levels of monitoring and control.

41

Interestingly, Dr. Brown doesn't mention any testing implications related to the 'metaphysical parsimony' that is a
basic design principle of the language. What 'Whorfian effects' might be expected by the optional tense approach? Dr.
Brown doesn't discuss this, nor does he suggest a comparison with the Hopi language and culture that led Whorf to his
hypothesis.
These reviewers believe that Dr. Brown has made no case that suggests that Sapir-Whorf testing is plausible without
at least second-generation bi-lingual speakers who can interact in a significantly loglandic environment. In fact, the
problems he foresees suggest that it is harder than originally perceived to isolate variables that would invalidate test
results. However, by at least discussing the topic, after years of silence, Dr. Brown has made it possible for others
to build on his work, perhaps solving the problems that seem to make a Sapir-Whorf test impractical in the near future.
Our conclusion is that Dr. Brown has made a start towards a Sapir-Whorf test strategy, but that his approach is
academically weak. He embarrasses his 'advisors', including scholars noteworthy in the fields of linguistics, anthro-
pology, and language education, by suggesting their presumed approval of this approach. It is little wonder that the
NSF proposals in the mid-70s did not impress the linguistics experts that reviewed them, who were possibly more
committed to a thorough peer review of the program than was Dr. Brown's team.

from pc (John Parks-Clifford)

I was surprised that Jim's discussion made no mention of the two big projects on the Whorf Hypothesis (WH) (and
related stuff) held in the early 50's. Surely these conferences must have influenced him to think about the issue, if
only indirectly. Moreover, they were the biggest (and so far as I can find, the only) major projects - government and
foundation grants, great lists of top-ranking second-raters as participants - ever conducted on WH. All the fields
involved went off in other directions shortly after the proceedings were published in 1954 and 1958. The most sharply
focussed (on WH) was held at U/Chicago in March 1953 with a Ford grant. The papers and the discussions around them were
edited by Harry Hoijer (from whom I first got doses of WH) and published by U/Chicago Press in 1954 as Language and
Culture. The other, at U/Michigan using grants from Rockefeller and Ford, ran through the academic year 1951-2. It's
results, which start at WH but go far afield (a lot of philosophers involved in this one) were summarized by Paul Hanle
in Language, Thought, and Culture published in 1958 by U/Michigan Press, reprinted in paperback in 1965. I haven't
looked at either in 20 years, so I don't remember much about conclusions (except that they were generally negative, I
seem to recall) or any details. Still, they seem like a good place to get through in any discussion of WH.

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