https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=mathematical_proof&feed=atom&action=historymathematical proof - Revision history2024-03-28T19:17:28ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.38.4https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=mathematical_proof&diff=88578&oldid=prevGleki: Gleki moved page jbocre: mathematical proof to mathematical proof without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: m" to "m"2014-03-23T12:17:15Z<p>Gleki moved page <a href="/index.php?title=jbocre:_mathematical_proof&action=edit&redlink=1" class="new" title="jbocre: mathematical proof (page does not exist)">jbocre: mathematical proof</a> to <a href="/papri/mathematical_proof" title="mathematical proof">mathematical proof</a> without leaving a redirect: Text replace - "jbocre: m" to "m"</p>
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</td></tr></table>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=mathematical_proof&diff=75587&oldid=prevGleki at 17:04, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:04:28Z<p></p>
<a href="https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=mathematical_proof&diff=75587&oldid=65039">Show changes</a>Glekihttps://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=mathematical_proof&diff=65039&oldid=prevGleki at 17:00, 4 November 20132013-11-04T17:00:03Z<p></p>
<p><b>New page</b></p><div><br />
== Section 2.1 ==<br />
<br />
* lu .ue sai y xu sfasa su'o da lo nu punji ra ti li'u ju'e<br />
** Should be "nu sfasa", I think.<br />
<br />
* {ni'o py nergau lo tolcitno je mudri vorme .i sy viska lo jinme nerklaji poi li'a citno}<br />
** jinme nerklaji? klaji laj street 'avenue' x1 is a street/avenue/lane/drive/cul-de-sac/way/alley/[[jbocre: road|road]] at x2 accessing x3<br />
<br />
* {.i lo nenri vorme cu jinme gi'e za'a tsali}<br />
** Maybe, {vrogai} or {vrobi'u}?<br />
<br />
* {.i .u'u mi lo ka xanka cu dukse lo nu citka djica}<br />
** If this means "Sorry, but my nervousness is more than my hunger", {dukse} doesn't work here. Don't know what does.<br />
<br />
* {gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri}<br />
** fi lo nu<br />
<br />
* {.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa}<br />
** fi le<br />
<br />
* {gi'e kajde lo nu catra da poi na jundi ri}<br />
** fi lo nu<br />
<br />
* {.e'u ma'a xruti le sanmi kumfa}<br />
** fi le<br />
<br />
* {.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuksu fi dy}<br />
** s/cuksu/cusku/ What does the first part mean, anyway? ry imitates a Middle Polynesian using an imaginary skirt?<br />
<br />
* {.i ku'i mi kanpe lo nu do na se spaji}<br />
** kanpe ki'a<br />
<br />
== Section 2.2 ==<br />
<br />
* ni'o loi ci prenu cu casnu lo na vajni ca'o lo nu xruti le sanmi kumfa<br />
** {xruti fi le sanmi kumfa}<br />
<br />
* {.i sy zgana lo nu le flira be py cu na'e gleki binxo gi'e rivbi dy} "rivbi riv avoid 'evade' x1 avoids/evades/shuns/escapes/skirts [[jbocre: fate|fate]] x2 (event)"<br />
** So {tu'a dy}?<br />
<br />
* s/sabju/sabji/<br />
* {.i sy cuksu lu mi ka'e}<br />
<br />
** s/cuksu/cusku/<br />
* {.i ji'a ry sanli gi'e skaci ke midju polgau se pi'o lo xanri skaci gi'e ckire cuslu fi dy}<br />
<br />
** s/cuslu/cusku/ ?<br />
<br />
<pre><br />
<br />
> > {ei} shows how the speaker feels things ought to be, not an<br />
<br />
> > oblgation by the speaker.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Erm, how do you figure that?<br />
<br />
Usage, usefulness, consistency, and even CLL supports that<br />
<br />
interpretation.<br />
<br />
Usage: that's how I've always used it and that's how I've seen<br />
<br />
it used too:<br />
<br />
<Taliesin> do .ei ciska bau la lojban<br />
<br />
<xod> .ei su'odo rivbi le nu penmi .oi<br />
<br />
<xod> .ei la tsali cu fanva<br />
<br />
<zef> ei zo te basti zo to di'u<br />
<br />
Usefulness: The feeling of obligation on the part of the<br />
<br />
speaker corresponds to the feeling of how things ought to be<br />
<br />
when the speaker is the agent, so it is a more restricted<br />
<br />
sense. There is not much point in restricting {ei} to sentences<br />
<br />
where {mi} is the agent.<br />
<br />
Consistency: the whole e-series of attitudinals is used for<br />
<br />
attitudes of the speaker towards a hypothetical situation.<br />
<br />
CLL has two examples with {.ei}. The first one is funny:<br />
<br />
3.10) .ei mi tisna<br />
<br />
le karce ctilyvau<br />
<br />
[[jbocre: obligation|obligation]] I fill<br />
<br />
the car-type-of petroleum-container.<br />
<br />
I should fill the car's gas tank.<br />
<br />
It is not decisive because {mi} is the agent, although the<br />
<br />
English translation is wrong. It really should be "I should<br />
<br />
become stuffed with the car's gas tank". (To be fair, I think<br />
<br />
the place structure of {tisna} was changed at some point.)<br />
<br />
But the other example:<br />
<br />
11.5) pe'i la kartagos. .ei se daspo<br />
<br />
[[jbocre: I opine!|I opine!]] Carthage [[jbocre: obligation|obligation]] is-destroyed.<br />
<br />
In my opinion, Carthage should be destroyed.<br />
<br />
clearly shows that {.ei} is about how the speaker feels things<br />
<br />
ought to be.<br />
<br />
mu'o mi'e xorxes<br />
<br />
</pre><br />
<br />
== Section 2.3 ==<br />
<br />
* to'u nai jai se srera fai pa valsi po lo ro moi jufra po lo pa moi jufmei po lo 2 pi 3 pi'e 2 moi se fendi i mi stidi lo nu zo marxa cu basti zo maxra<br />
* {pa cnebo jinsi jadni sy .i le jinsi}<br />
<br />
** jinsi ki'a<br />
* s/cuksu/cusku/<br />
<br />
* s/maxra/marxa/<br />
<br />
<pre><br />
<br />
> > > fe lu .oi do pu kakne lo nu jdegau mi tu'a le janco<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > s/jdegau/kajde<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Nope. kajde is non-agentive.<br />
<br />
{jdegau fi mi fo tu'a le janco} then?<br />
<br />
> > > .i zo'o nai mi ca ponse pa barda ke skapi ciblu<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > I think this is pilka more than skapi.<br />
<br />
> > skapi is the material, it is the pilka once<br />
<br />
> > it has been removed from the animal.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> I disagree. skapi need not have been removed, and pilka includes<br />
<br />
> fruit rinds and so on. I'm going to ask the archivists about this.<br />
<br />
I certainly don't dispute {pilka} includes fruit rinds and tree bark.<br />
<br />
There are many body-parts that work both for animals and plants.<br />
<br />
{pilka} is clearly a part-whole relationship.<br />
<br />
{skapi}, on the other hand, is a product-source relationship, like<br />
<br />
{silka} and {sunla}. I think gismu place structures should be much<br />
<br />
more regular than what they are, but in some cases there are very<br />
<br />
clear classes of place structures, like specimen-species, part-whole,<br />
<br />
substance-composition, substance-source. {pilka} is clearly<br />
<br />
part-whole and {skapi} is clearly substance-source.<br />
<br />
(I'm not exactly sure what to make of Lojbab's response on this.)<br />
<br />
</pre><br />
<br />
Section 2.4<br />
<br />
<pre><br />
<br />
> > > .i ji'a xy rinka so'u da poi xlali<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > I read this as "also, it causes a few bad things", and was<br />
<br />
> > expecting to be told what they were. I think what D might<br />
<br />
> > have meant is that it doesn't cause any important bad thing?<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> s/so'u/pi so'u roi/<br />
<br />
A fraction of an occasion?<br />
<br />
> > > lo ni sy certu cu banzu lo nu na birti fa lo nu lo kalte cu<br />
<br />
> > > mrobi'i<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > s/mrobi'i/mrobi'o<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > I don't understand the sentence though. Susan's skill was<br />
<br />
> > enough to not be certain of a hunter's death?<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Yes. "She's good enough that it's not a certainly that she'll get<br />
<br />
> one of us killed".<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> s/birti/ju'o gasnu/; see if that helps.<br />
<br />
Hmm, ok. The {fa} is wrong though.<br />
<br />
> > > .i ku'i ca zi bo ky nergau le citka kumfa to ri vasru vy jo'u sy<br />
<br />
> > > toi<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > I think we already knew that V and S were in the room.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> No, we had no idea what room they were in.<br />
<br />
...<br />
<br />
> The goal was: "K entered the dining room, where d &amp; s were".<br />
<br />
I see. I would have said {noi vy jo'u sy zvati ke'a}, but I guess<br />
<br />
your phrase is not wrong.<br />
<br />
> > You seem to use {diklo} a lot, I don't really know what it means.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> x1 is near to x2 within possible range x3<br />
<br />
Similar to {jibni} then? But the gi'uste uses "locus". If you look<br />
<br />
at all the definitions that use that word you get a different idea.<br />
<br />
> > > .i re makcu remna cu tcetce terpa lo nu lo fagri [[jbocre: ...|...]] cu jibni<br />
<br />
> > > vo'a? gi'e jbini le makcu bi'i le verba<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> What does vo'a bind to there? Do we even know?<br />
<br />
{re makcu prena} supposedly.<br />
<br />
> > Otherwise we get the fire between between the adults and the<br />
<br />
> > child.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Erm, *yes*. That's the point. The child is causing fire to project<br />
<br />
> from emself towards the parents.<br />
<br />
"between between"?<br />
<br />
My point is that {jbini ko'a bi'i ko'e}, with the duplicated "between",<br />
<br />
is strange. It's {jbini ko'a jo'u ko'e} or {zvati ko'a bi'i ko'e}.<br />
<br />
> > > ni'o .a'o cai sy ca'o na bajra gi'e ku'i jgari pa makcu gi'e<br />
<br />
> > > lacpu ri fa'a lo vomre<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > s/vomre/vorme<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > "Hopefully, S is not running but grabbing one adult and pulling<br />
<br />
> > them towards the door"??<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> "with great hope" was the goal. i.e. she's scared out of her mind<br />
<br />
> but trying anyways.<br />
<br />
That's not my understanding of how {a'o} works.<br />
<br />
> > > ni'o sy za'u re'u zgana lo nu lo blupinxe cu ka'e sezymuvgau? se<br />
<br />
> > > kai lo mutce mutce sutra<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > s/sezymuvgau/muvdu<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Erm, no. muvdu is not agentive.<br />
<br />
It's not non-agentive either. It's neutral in that respect.<br />
<br />
I can understand using {sezmuvgau} when it is for some reason<br />
<br />
important to emphasize the agentiveness, but not every time.<br />
<br />
Why don't you say {sezklagau} for explicitly agentive {klama},<br />
<br />
or {sezvi'egau} for explicitly agentive {vitke}, or {sezypipygau}<br />
<br />
for explicitly agentive {plipe}, etc.<br />
<br />
Anyway, that's just a minor point of style. (You don't need the<br />
<br />
y-hyphen BTW.)<br />
<br />
On Sat, Mar 12, 2005 at 07:32:46AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote:<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e<br />
<br />
> > > > xenru cusku<br />
<br />
> > ><br />
<br />
> > > s/fargau/cliva ?<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Oh, you probably meant {dargau} then. {fargau} is from {farna<br />
<br />
> gasnu}.<br />
<br />
Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.<br />
<br />
> You only need a y-hyphen after {r} in {ryr}, every other consonant<br />
<br />
> is ok after {r}.<br />
<br />
Cool.<br />
<br />
> > I want him to be chanting truth tables; suggestions *very*<br />
<br />
> > welcome.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> You mean you want to express logical notation in plain language?<br />
<br />
More or less, yes.<br />
<br />
> The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation<br />
<br />
> are one and the same (or very close).<br />
<br />
True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in<br />
<br />
[[jbocre: this|this]] fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.<br />
<br />
> {bu'a i ja bu'e} entails, well, {ga bu'a gi bu'e}. You could say<br />
<br />
> {lo du'u ga bu'a gi bu'e cu nibli lo du'u ga lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu<br />
<br />
> gi lo du'u bu'e cu jetnu}, but that's like saying {lo du'u bu'a cu<br />
<br />
> nibli lo du'u lo du'u bu'a cu jetnu}, it's not really related to<br />
<br />
> truth tables.<br />
<br />
As long as it's hyper-logical, it fits the story, but that's not<br />
<br />
really what I was looking for, no. I suppose a Lojban definition of<br />
<br />
.a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.<br />
<br />
> > > > .i ji'a le barda ke vlagi ctebi cu tunlo gi'e xunre<br />
<br />
> > > ...<br />
<br />
> > > > .i le pinji cu pu tunlo je ke mutce jdari ke'e binxo<br />
<br />
> > ><br />
<br />
> > > tunlo ma?<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > punli again. "swollen"<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> I think you forgot to change one of them. But {punli} sounds too<br />
<br />
> permanent for this. Maybe {se preja}?<br />
<br />
Good idea.<br />
<br />
-Robin<br />
<br />
> > > > > .i se ki'u bo ko fargau? le cribe gi'e klama le rirni gi'e<br />
<br />
> > > > > xenru cusku<br />
<br />
> > > ><br />
<br />
> > > > s/fargau/cliva ?<br />
<br />
> > ><br />
<br />
> > > I just didn't know if I needed a y in fargau.<br />
<br />
> ><br />
<br />
> > Oh, you probably meant {dargau} then. {fargau} is from {farna<br />
<br />
> > gasnu}.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> Oh, no, I meant *bargau*.<br />
<br />
Make the bear be on the outside of what?<br />
<br />
> > The problem is that in Lojban plain language and logical notation<br />
<br />
> > are one and the same (or very close).<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> True, but you still need to be able to say "the cmava .e behaves in<br />
<br />
> [[jbocre: this|this]] fashion" in Lojban, or we have an incomplete language.<br />
<br />
I wrote a definition for {.e} in jbovlaste using {kanxe}.<br />
<br />
All logical connectives are in a logical sense bridi connectives. The<br />
<br />
sumti connectives are just an abbreviated form {ko'a V ko'e broda}<br />
<br />
= {gV ko'a broda gi ko'e broda}, but that is independent of the truth<br />
<br />
tables.<br />
<br />
> I suppose a Lojban definition of<br />
<br />
> .a that never uses a logical connective would be about right.<br />
<br />
It would have to be in terms of {vlina}. I wrote one<br />
<br />
in jbovlaste, which can probably be improved.<br />
<br />
mu'o mi'e xorxes<br />
<br />
</pre><br />
<br />
== Section 2.5 ==<br />
<br />
<pre><br />
<br />
> Yes, but *normally* things consist of more than their minds; this<br />
<br />
> one does not.<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> How about:<br />
<br />
><br />
<br />
> .i lo nu lo menli be la ctino po'u la ctino cu se daspo cu mintu<br />
<br />
> lonu ri se daspo<br />
<br />
s/po'u/no'u and I'll buy it.<br />
<br />
mu'o mi'e xorxes<br />
<br />
</pre><br />
<br />
* .i se ki'u bo sy pilno lo ckana poi vy facki va'u sy gi'e ba zi sipna<br />
** s/va'u/se va'u/</div>Gleki