Difference between revisions of "malglico examples"

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* left (zunle), meaning liberal.
==  Minutes of the 2007 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. ==
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* right (pritu), meaning conservative.
 
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** you should say ''poi zvati le zunle mlana'' and ''poi zvati le pritu mlana''
The 2007 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language
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*** well yes, but the point is using zunle or pritu anywhere to mean liberal or conservative is malglico.
 
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** It's not malglico. It's a standard metaphor or conceptual schema in Europe and maybe beyond. Yes, it's culturally biased, but it's not linguistically biased, which is what we usually mean by ''malglico''. [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
Group, Inc. was called to order on Sat, 6 Oct 2007 19:50:59 UTC -0700.
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*** Well it's in the English dictionaryIt may be maldotco as well, but we're pretty glico-centric in our whining, so i call it malglico.
 
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**** It's originally from French, so I would call it ''malfraso''.
It was conducted on the llg-members mailing list.
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***How eurocentric - it's not linguistically biased because we have it everywhere in Europe, so it must be in all the world's languages. Since everyone in North America and Europe uses these terms, '''of course''' the other 4.869 billion people in the world understand it also! And on a page about avoiding cultural/linguistic myopia, too! - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
 
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*** Even if it's in use world-wide, it's still a different meaning that the definition of ''zunle'' and ''pritu'', and so should be avoided. Lojban gismu only have one meaning.
===  Carry Forward: Bits That Should Be Paid Attention To For The Next Meeting ===
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**I'd have to look it up (somewhere), but something in me is remembering that the Cherokee words for "Democrat" and "Republican" (the ostensibly left and right political parties in America, which is where the Cherokee live) are the same as "north" and "south" and/or "cold" and "warm" (not necessarily respectively). ''--mi'e [[User:Mark Shoulson|.mark.]]''
 
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** I think these should not be Zipf'd beyond ''zunle pe'a jinvi'' and ''pritu pe'a jinvi''. For a more elaborate analysis, see [[jbocre: Political and Government terminology|here]].
* A request was made to actually perform a roll call; the suggested method is to just limit the roll call time to 5 days or so and call anyone who doesn't respond in that time "not present".
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*** ''pevzunle'' and ''pevypritu'' should be acceptible.
* It is worth mentioning that xorlo was added to the zasni gafyfantymanri last year.
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* 15 minutes of fame (misno ca'o vai mentu), meaning fleeting fame.
 
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** It should be ''misno ze'i lo mentu be li vai''. The short interval duration is indicated with ''ze'i'', ''ca'o'' does not say that the ongoing fame is restricted to the 15 minutes, does it? Also, it's ''lo mentu be li vai'' because we are talking of one 15-minute interval, not about fifteen one-minute intervals.
* It is worth mentioning that we started talking about trying to make a presence on amazon.com because people were selling the CLL for $LOTSNo conclusion or action occured; we might want to pick this one back up.
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** horribly malglico in that it elevates a particular number to mean something besides the number.
 
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** [[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]] can't agree. Is it really malglico to suppose that fifteen minutes is a short (indeed, ridiculous) period during which one can be famous?  You might as well say that "beating a dead horse" is malglico for "acting futilely": beating a dead horse ''is'' acting futilely.
====  No Longer Members ====
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*** Yet there are other Lojban terms for the same thing such as 'grinding smoke'; see [[jbocre: hunting unicorns|hunting unicorns]].
 
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**** The fact that there "exists" a Lojban expression for "beating a dead horse" certainly does not make the Horse expression any more malglico!
* Gary Burgess (resigned during the meeting)
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***** No, it doesn't. It just makes it fuzzy and thus a less good example.
 
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*** I'd very much say "beating a dead horse" is malglico for "acting futilely". Of course you could say it with pe'a, but the refgram specifically notes that "pe'anai" is the default of lojban (just like decimal is the default).
====  Non-Participatory Members ====
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*** You can only say "15 minutes of fame" if it's literally 15 minutes.
 
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* at the last minute (ca'o pa mentu poi purci lamji le fanmo), meaning done right before a deadlinemalglico in that usually it does not imply sixty seconds.
* Desquilbet, Jerome
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** Also wordier than the Lojbanically-obvious ''pu'ozi''.
* Dyke, Gregory
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*** ''pu'o zi'' is grammatical, but it parses as ''pu'oku zi'', so writing it together is misleading. In any case, ''pu'o'' means that the event is about to happen, not that it happens at the last minute. It may be about to happen and still plenty on time. --[[User:xorxes|xorxes]]
 
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* politically correct (jecta drani), meaning done so as not to offend people.  malglico in that politics has no correctness.
* Hodges, John B.  
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** But ''jecta drani'' is a political-type-of correctness, not correct politics. Isn't that valid?
* Le Du, Yann
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*** It sure is valid. Sorry, these examples of malglico are pretty weak.
 
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**** Ok, it's a borderline case.  But I think the others are pretty clear cut.
* Nicholas, Nick
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** ''drani jecta'' would be a correct sort of politics, which is what ''politically correct'' means. It's not malglico; it's an ironic description of, formerly, maoist and, latterly, liberal ideology. [[User:And Rosta|And Rosta]]
* O'Sullivan, Paul Francis
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** More [[jbocre: Discussion of 'Politically Correct'|here]].
 
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* come (klama), meaning orgasmsadly, this renders the song "come baby come" bereft of its double meaning.
* Speer, Rob
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* can you... (xu do ka'e co'e), meaning a commandthis is one malglico that i try to avoid while talking glibau.
* Turner, Robin
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** This is translated well by ''.e'o'' or ''.e'u''
 
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* ''viska'' for see in the sense of [[jbocre: glork|glork]] - in IE languages seeing and knowing are often linked etymologically, but not in all other families. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]] made this exact mistake 5 minutes ago while talking to myself (which I do in a mix of English, Spanish, and Lojban), so despite some people's complaints these are not just arbitrarily made up, at least not this one.
===  Roll Call ===
 
 
 
Roll call was waived, as all members were believed to have valid
 
 
 
e-mail addresses on the list. A list of members who actually
 
 
 
participated (commented or voted) is as follows:
 
 
 
* Gary Burgess (resigned during the meeting)
 
 
 
* Abbat, Pierre
 
* [http://www.nemorathwald.com/ rnold, Matt]
 
 
 
* Barton, Dave
 
* [http://mercury.ccil.org/~cowan/ owan, John]
 
 
 
* Daniel, Craig
 
* [http://arj.nvg.org/ ohansen, Arnt Richard]
 
 
 
* [http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/ ominek, Jay F]
 
* LeChevalier, Nora
 
 
 
* LeChevalier, Robert
 
* Llambias, Jorge
 
 
 
* [http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ owell, Robin Lee]
 
* Reed, Theodore
 
 
 
* Rosta, And
 
* [http://web.meson.org/ houlson, Mark]
 
 
 
* [http://xiron.pc.helsinki.fi/people/vilva/ ilva, Veijo]
 
* Weeks, Stephen
 
 
 
* Whitlock, Tommy
 
 
 
===  Reading of Minutes ===
 
 
 
Deferred by providing a link for people to read at their leisure.
 
 
 
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=LLG+2006+Annual+Meeting+Minutes&bl
 
 
 
===  Officer's Reports ===
 
 
 
Accepted by acclamation.
 
 
 
====  President's Report ====
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
Executive summary: with the exception of the BPFK's lack of progress, things
 
 
 
are going better than ever in Lojbanistan.
 
 
 
- Logfest 2006 took place at Philcon in Philadelphia from November 17-19, and
 
 
 
was an outstanding success. The turnout was the largest ever since Logfest was
 
 
 
moved out of the LeChevaliers' house.
 
 
 
- Sometime around December 1st, Lojban was the subject of the webcomic XKCD
 
 
 
(http://xkcd.com/191/), which resulted in a lot of people in our target
 
 
 
audience to learn of our existence.
 
 
 
- Very recently, Robin modified the editing system of Jbovlaste so that all
 
 
 
registered users can edit any data. This has resulted in a surge of activity,
 
 
 
and we hope this level of activity will continue.
 
 
 
- There has been some progress on the Attitudinals checkpoint of BPFK, but we
 
 
 
are currently stuck on account of one or more controversies regarding the
 
 
 
semantics of some irrealis attitudinals.
 
 
 
- The IRC channel #lojban on freenode is thriving, with 47 nicks present at the
 
 
 
moment. (For those of you not familiar with IRC, or only familiar with IRC as
 
 
 
it was ten years ago, this does not mean that they are active talkers. It is
 
 
 
common to have one's IRC client connected 24/7, and only checking up on it
 
 
 
occasionally.) Per the suggestion of Theodore Reed, off-topic banter in English
 
 
 
among the regulars has been split off into #jbopre, in an attempt to not scare
 
 
 
off the newbies. (And to hide the fact that Lojban's vocabulary isn't up to
 
 
 
talking about anything. ::^) )
 
 
 
- jbobac, the lojbanic audiobord, has been established at
 
 
 
http://jbobac.lojban.org/ by Timo Paulssen. While this may look like a
 
 
 
frivolous enterprise at first glance, we have now obtained a free repository of
 
 
 
various Lojban speech samples. As Robin pointed out, almost without noticing
 
 
 
it, we are now able to provide Lojban learners with the one teaching resource
 
 
 
they want the most.
 
 
 
- Matt's LojbanQuest game design has been partially implemented with the help
 
 
 
of Robin and others. The combat system is now being playtested. Playing the
 
 
 
game is fun, instructional, and provides a pool of example sentences for BPFK,
 
 
 
which helps with what most BPFK commissioners say is the most difficult part of
 
 
 
their job.
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
====  Treasurer's Report ====
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
As of the end of August, the bank account balanced at $5,467.11, and
 
 
 
the PayPal account balanced at $209.26.
 
 
 
Having said that, I've agreed to cut Bob a cheque for all but $100
 
 
 
of his remaining balance: after that clears, the bank balance will
 
 
 
be (approximately) $3,400.
 
 
 
All book orders that I'm aware of have been filled.  Bob has
 
 
 
improved in both turn around time and responsiveness in the last 6
 
 
 
months.
 
 
 
Bob has asked for a bit of an account of CLL orders over the last
 
 
 
few years, so here we go:
 
 
 
2007, so far:          20
 
 
 
2006:                  30
 
 
 
2005:                  27
 
 
 
2004:                  16
 
 
 
After that my records don't work anymore; the 2004 number is in fact
 
 
 
a bit suspect,  but only a bit. I'm actually surprised by the 2007
 
 
 
number; I thought it was higher.
 
 
 
This is also my report to the board for 2Q2006.
 
 
 
Main account balance at this time (more or less) last year: $2,264.80
 
 
 
Main account balance: $3,823.31
 
 
 
Main account balance according to QuickBooks: $3,721.60
 
 
 
Still not sure where the extra money came from, but dealing with
 
 
 
Wachovia is so difficult I no longer much care.
 
 
 
PayPal account balances; current balance is $46.79
 
 
 
That means we have a total of:
 
 
 
$3870.10
 
 
 
In addition, the Treasurer has not missed or been late for a single
 
 
 
quarterly report this year, a fact of which he is quite proud.
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
====  Secretary's Report ====
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
I was (very) late with the minutes for last year; sorry about that.
 
 
 
I seem to recall that Bob has had a couple of contact events over
 
 
 
the year, but this is the only one I can currently remember:
 
 
 
After 20 years, I have had the first serious request for access
 
 
 
to the archives.
 
 
 
Linguist Arika Okrent, who attended Logfest last year, is
 
 
 
writing a book on artificial languagesOne chapter will
 
 
 
apparently deal with Loglan and Lojban, and she has requested
 
 
 
access to our archived materials, especially for stuff on JCB
 
 
 
and his expressed ideas.  She's coming next Tuesday, and
 
 
 
hopefully I will have cleaned up the accumulation enough that it
 
 
 
will seem more like an archive than an accumulation, and that I
 
 
 
can supply her with what she needs.
 
 
 
I still think that's very cool, and would like to hear how it works
 
 
 
out.
 
 
 
Also, Bob asked me to share some statistical information about the
 
 
 
mailing lists and other Lojbanic activity, so here we go; copied
 
 
 
verbatim.
 
 
 
On Thu, May 24, 2007 at 11:01:27PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
 
 
 
> A thread on alt.languages.artificial has Don Harlow posting
 
 
 
> statistics on membership and postings on various conlang mailing
 
 
 
> lists.
 
 
 
>
 
 
 
> Can you reasonably easily give me for each of our two main lists
 
 
 
> Lojban List and Lojban beginners list
 
 
 
> a) number of list members
 
 
 
457 for the main list
 
 
 
413 for the beginner's list
 
 
 
(both are probably a couple off due to admin accounts and such)
 
 
 
> b) number of postings so far in 2007
 
 
 
417 for the main list
 
 
 
1590 for the beginner's list
 
 
 
I make no particular representation of absolute accuracy for those
 
 
 
either.
 
 
 
> c) as a bonus because I think it is significant (some of the lists
 
 
 
> he mentions probably have lots of members who are subscribed but
 
 
 
> filtering and not actually reading and participating in the list),
 
 
 
> number of different posters (distinct email addresses used for
 
 
 
> posting is sufficient)
 
 
 
62 for the main list
 
 
 
67 for the beginner's list
 
 
 
104 unique between the two (which is higher than I'd have
 
 
 
suspected).
 
 
 
Again, this is all so far in 2007.
 
 
 
> If you can easily determine how many of the subscribers there are
 
 
 
> to the two lists combined, that might also be useful, since our
 
 
 
> true mailing list population is the union of the two lists.
 
 
 
Trivial.
 
 
 
685 unique subscriber addresses between the two lists.
 
 
 
> Since I haven't been paying attention but believe it has been
 
 
 
> discussed, what are the major current activities on line for live
 
 
 
> spoken Lojban, and can you give me URLs and approximate frequency
 
 
 
> of something actually taking place?
 
 
 
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Lojbanic+Forums&bl
 
 
 
IRC: Continuous
 
 
 
The MOO: Quite rare these days, I'm sorry to say; as much my fault
 
 
 
as any.
 
 
 
The website itself: Someone besides me edits a page every couple of
 
 
 
days, maybe.
 
 
 
jbovlaste: Varies wildly.
 
 
 
The BFPK: Almost none.
 
 
 
Voice Chat:
 
 
 
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Story+Time+With+Uncle+Robin&bl
 
 
 
happened a number of times, with good results; I've now moved on to
 
 
 
running
 
 
 
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=tarci%20jamna%20dracyselkei
 
 
 
which has only run once so far
 
 
 
Nothing else comes immediately to mind.
 
 
 
-Robin
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
===  Committee Reports ===
 
 
 
Accepted by acclamation.
 
 
 
====  BPFK ====
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
Nothing of significance has occured over the last year that I'm aware of.  The
 
 
 
fact that something on the order of 4 people ever contribute is relevant here.
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
===  Election of New Members ===
 
 
 
None.
 
 
 
===  Removal of Old Members ===
 
 
 
* Gary Burgess resigned during the meeting
 
 
 
===  Election of the Board ===
 
 
 
* Robin Lee Powell
 
* Robert LeChevalier
 
 
 
* Matt Arnold
 
* Arnt Richard Johansen
 
 
 
* John Cowan
 
 
 
===  Old Business ===
 
 
 
None.
 
 
 
=== New Business ===
 
 
 
====  The xorlo Discussion ====
 
 
 
Robin Lee Powell moved that the membership recognize xorlo.  Specifically, I
 
 
 
move that the membership assert that xorlo is more correct than the CLL at this
 
 
 
time, that whatever the BPFK come up with xorlo will be part of it, and that
 
 
 
new Lojbanists should be taught it as soon as possible.
 
 
 
There was a great deal of discussion.
 
 
 
The following proposal eventually passed:
 
 
 
<pre>
 
 
 
1) The following procedures are added to the extant BPFK procedures:
 
 
 
"Any proposal which at least half of the BPFK membership has
 
 
 
voted on in a tentative vote with none voting against, may be
 
 
 
submitted by the BPFKJ to the general membership as a possible
 
 
 
piece of the zasni gafyfantymanri ("interim baseline", herein
 
 
 
after referred to as the ZG)Such a proposal requires a
 
 
 
two-thirds majority of those voting to vote in favor of it at
 
 
 
the general membership meeting in order to pass.
 
 
 
Voting something into the ZG has the following effects:
 
 
 
1. The proposal will be considered correct Lojban until such a
 
 
 
time the complete new baseline is established and approved by
 
 
 
the membership. Usage according to the CLL standard will not be
 
 
 
considered incorrect, but usage according to the ZG will be
 
 
 
preferred.
 
 
 
2. The BPFK will recognize that such a vote indicates a desire
 
 
 
by the membership for the proposal in question to be included,
 
 
 
in modified form if necessary, when the new baseline is
 
 
 
finished. Such a desire will not be considered binding in any
 
 
 
way.
 
 
 
3. The membership is encouraged to use the ZG standard in all
 
 
 
pedagogical contexts, and in all Lojban conversation.
 
 
 
The ZG will last only until the entire new baseline is written
 
 
 
by the BPFK and approved by the membership."
 
 
 
</pre>
 
 
 
In addition, xorlo was added to the zasni gafyfantymanri
 
 
 
====  Book Sales Discussion ====
 
 
 
There was discussion of both Amazon in specific and CLL sales in
 
 
 
general.  No conclusion was reached as far as I can tell.
 

Revision as of 17:04, 4 November 2013

  • left (zunle), meaning liberal.
  • right (pritu), meaning conservative.
    • you should say poi zvati le zunle mlana and poi zvati le pritu mlana
      • well yes, but the point is using zunle or pritu anywhere to mean liberal or conservative is malglico.
    • It's not malglico. It's a standard metaphor or conceptual schema in Europe and maybe beyond. Yes, it's culturally biased, but it's not linguistically biased, which is what we usually mean by malglico. And Rosta
      • Well it's in the English dictionary. It may be maldotco as well, but we're pretty glico-centric in our whining, so i call it malglico.
        • It's originally from French, so I would call it malfraso.
      • How eurocentric - it's not linguistically biased because we have it everywhere in Europe, so it must be in all the world's languages. Since everyone in North America and Europe uses these terms, of course the other 4.869 billion people in the world understand it also! And on a page about avoiding cultural/linguistic myopia, too! - mi'e. .kreig.daniyl.
      • Even if it's in use world-wide, it's still a different meaning that the definition of zunle and pritu, and so should be avoided. Lojban gismu only have one meaning.
    • I'd have to look it up (somewhere), but something in me is remembering that the Cherokee words for "Democrat" and "Republican" (the ostensibly left and right political parties in America, which is where the Cherokee live) are the same as "north" and "south" and/or "cold" and "warm" (not necessarily respectively). --mi'e .mark.
    • I think these should not be Zipf'd beyond zunle pe'a jinvi and pritu pe'a jinvi. For a more elaborate analysis, see here.
      • pevzunle and pevypritu should be acceptible.
  • 15 minutes of fame (misno ca'o vai mentu), meaning fleeting fame.
    • It should be misno ze'i lo mentu be li vai. The short interval duration is indicated with ze'i, ca'o does not say that the ongoing fame is restricted to the 15 minutes, does it? Also, it's lo mentu be li vai because we are talking of one 15-minute interval, not about fifteen one-minute intervals.
    • horribly malglico in that it elevates a particular number to mean something besides the number.
    • John Cowan can't agree. Is it really malglico to suppose that fifteen minutes is a short (indeed, ridiculous) period during which one can be famous? You might as well say that "beating a dead horse" is malglico for "acting futilely": beating a dead horse is acting futilely.
      • Yet there are other Lojban terms for the same thing such as 'grinding smoke'; see hunting unicorns.
        • The fact that there "exists" a Lojban expression for "beating a dead horse" certainly does not make the Horse expression any more malglico!
          • No, it doesn't. It just makes it fuzzy and thus a less good example.
      • I'd very much say "beating a dead horse" is malglico for "acting futilely". Of course you could say it with pe'a, but the refgram specifically notes that "pe'anai" is the default of lojban (just like decimal is the default).
      • You can only say "15 minutes of fame" if it's literally 15 minutes.
  • at the last minute (ca'o pa mentu poi purci lamji le fanmo), meaning done right before a deadline. malglico in that usually it does not imply sixty seconds.
    • Also wordier than the Lojbanically-obvious pu'ozi.
      • pu'o zi is grammatical, but it parses as pu'oku zi, so writing it together is misleading. In any case, pu'o means that the event is about to happen, not that it happens at the last minute. It may be about to happen and still plenty on time. --xorxes
  • politically correct (jecta drani), meaning done so as not to offend people. malglico in that politics has no correctness.
    • But jecta drani is a political-type-of correctness, not correct politics. Isn't that valid?
      • It sure is valid. Sorry, these examples of malglico are pretty weak.
        • Ok, it's a borderline case. But I think the others are pretty clear cut.
    • drani jecta would be a correct sort of politics, which is what politically correct means. It's not malglico; it's an ironic description of, formerly, maoist and, latterly, liberal ideology. And Rosta
    • More here.
  • come (klama), meaning orgasm. sadly, this renders the song "come baby come" bereft of its double meaning.
  • can you... (xu do ka'e co'e), meaning a command. this is one malglico that i try to avoid while talking glibau.
    • This is translated well by .e'o or .e'u
  • viska for see in the sense of glork - in IE languages seeing and knowing are often linked etymologically, but not in all other families. .kreig.daniyl. made this exact mistake 5 minutes ago while talking to myself (which I do in a mix of English, Spanish, and Lojban), so despite some people's complaints these are not just arbitrarily made up, at least not this one.