Difference between revisions of "malglico"

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==  Minutes of the 2009 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language Group, Inc. ==
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''malglico'' is Lojban for 'damned English', and is the concise way for Lojbanists to indicate they consider an expression or construction to be a poor carry-over from English, which is either erroneous (grammatically or semantically), or conveys inappropiate cultural bias.
  
These minutes were approved by the 2010 annual meeting.
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* [[User:tsali|tsali]] has an excellent [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/malglico.html iscussion of the concept, with examples]
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* [[jbocre: malglico examples|malglico examples]] that should get a jbopre thrown out of lojbanistan.
  
The 2009 Annual Meeting of the Members of The Logical Language
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==== [[jbocre: malglico|malglico]] (The following is a static copy of [http://c2.com/cgi/wiki/wiki?MalGlico,] which see for updates.) ====
  
Group, Inc. was called to order on Sat, 8 Aug 2009 14:32:19 +0200.
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''Meta-comment: I think such copying an exceedingly bad idea; a cross-reference should surely have been enough, and would have prevented drift between the two versions of the same text -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].'' [[jbocre: I only did it because they erased the category it was in...|I only did it because they erased the category it was in...]] ''The internal structure of the c2.com wiki is beside the point; the link to MalGlico still works...''
  
It was conducted on the llg-members mailing list.
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Malglico is a LojbanLanguage term, best translated as ****ing English, used to refer to uses of the LojbanLanguage which actually fit better with the EnglishLanguage and are obvious examples of AmericanCulturalAssumption. Malglico uses of the LojbanLanguage are not tolerated by its speakers, as LojbanLanguage is trying to be a CulturallyNeutralLanguage. Malglico uses of it prevent such CulturalNeutrality.
  
=== Roll Call ===
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''I'm curious how much malglico is actually spotted by non-English-speakers? It wouldn't surprise me if it was just self-deprecation on the part of some particularly whiny Americans.''
  
Roll call was waived, as all members were believed to have valid
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A question - are there similar terms for Lojban misuse in the style of other natural languages like French, or Japanese?  I agree with the sentiment that a so-called neutral language is somewhat hypocritical if it singles out a particular natural language as singularly bad.
  
e-mail addresses on the list. A list of members who actually
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No instances have occurred, but when we get a more diverse population I'm sure they will. I find it unlikely that with (so far) an English speaking population with only one or two non-native EnglishLanguage speakers we'll see terms like ''malxurdo'' popping up, but it could happen later when native Urdu speakers learn lojban.
  
participated (commented or voted) is as follows:
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* ''Actually, I would bet that by the time such words like ''malxurdo'' would begin to appear, ''malglico'' would evolve to a more general term: it currently means making faulty English in Lojban, and would probably evolve to mean making faulty Lojban, period. Then again, it's also possible to use ''malprenu'', or some-such, as well.''
  
* [[User: Broca|Arnt Richard Johansen]]
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* [[User:Nick Nicholas ick|nitcion ick]] used "charmingly maldotco" to describe [[jbocre: Zamenhof|Zamenhof]]'s style in writing [[jbocre: Esperanto|Esperanto]]; of course, this is not a use ''within'' Lojban yet.
* [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]]
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* If it's charming, it's certainly not mabla. Maybe something like "charmingly dotydu'e" would be better.
  
* [[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]]
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''I guess I'm questioning the need to associate ''incorrect Lojban'' with a specific native language.  What benefit is it to tag something as MalGlico versus <Lojban for incorrect grammar> ??'' '''genselsrera'''
* [[jbocre: Matt Arnold|Matt Arnold]]
 
  
* [[jbocre: Robin Lee Powell|Robin Lee Powell]]
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Bad grammar is a different thing entirely from trying to turn lojban into your native language. Since all of us speak English fluently (so far), MalGlico is the most common misuse. But people do misuse the grammar - but that happens in every language. In lojban, the grammar is so alien that malglico occurs, and it is worth remarking for one simple reason:
* [[User:xorxes|Jorge Llambias]]
 
  
* [[jbocre: Pierre Abbat|Pierre Abbat]]
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** As a newbie, I did not understand what malglico was, and it took a long time to figure it out. Here it is nicely explained for us.
* David Barton
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** Bad grammar is common to every language. I know what bad grammar is. I did not know what malglico meant, we don't have it in English.
  
* Mark Shoulson
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''I still do not see why it is deemed necessary to have the pejorative contain the native language name.  Why not just call it ''natural grammar'' or something that does not appear to condemn the specific natural language?  It smacks of a political agenda to do otherwise'' --PeteHardie
* TommyLee Whitlock
 
  
===  Reading of Minutes ===
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A specifically English construction is malglico. A construction unique to Germanic languages has been dubbed malbrasmudotco. Natural Grammar would imply that these constructions are not unique to one language, but to all natural languages. This is patently false. If a malxurdo (see above) example and a malglico example of the same idea were seen side by side, they would look different, and we like to be specific. Yes, we do have a political agenda: Not showing any cultural bias. We have to point out the bias when it shows up before we can eliminate it entirely. And we have to say what it is.
  
At the time, it was believed that the reading of the minutes was waived, in
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Maintaining a separate culture is a common challenge to language communities nowadays, and complete isolationism is a path many take.  It's a pity Lojban couldn't go some other way, though.
  
favour of [[LLG Members|LLG Members]] as the canonical listt, by unanimous consent, but
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''I guess I don't see the value of identifying the parent language of a misconstruction so specifically.  It seems to veer too close to both an appearance of Lojban bias against specific mother tongues, and the syndrome of everything having a very specific name, but the remedy being the same - to restate the correct formation.'' --PeteHardie
  
this seems to have only been mentioned, not formally stated.  Regardless, the
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----
  
mention could have been objected to and was not, so we're calling it good.
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Isn't it a little odd that an language that prides itself on being culturally neutral is the only one I'm aware of that has an apparently common curse word dealing with people who speak the language poorly? (See NorJbo.) EnglishLanguage has terms like "Spanglish" and "Engrish", and I've heard my high school Spanish teacher refer to malglico-like constructions in Spanish as "anglicisms", but neither of them translate into anything that has to be bleeped.  In fact, the popularity of "malglico" seems to completely negate the cultural neutrality of the language.
  
=== President's report ===
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''actually a deficiency of English that it has to be ****d. In Lojban it's not a swear word, but English is unable to express certain sentiments without cursing.''  '''The people who translate the word could describe the undesirability of "mal-" any number of ways. The fact that they invariably choose TheFword, or at least words you can't say in school, reflects an overly emphatic attitude.'''
  
~pp~
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''Quite simply, English cannot espress perjoratives without swearing, except in specific cases which don't happen to include the name of the language.''  Bad, pathetic, stupid, horrible, hateful, unwanted.
  
Hey folks, Eppcott here with the President's report.
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''Sure, and I myself have used 'damned English' to translate ''malglico''. Cf. Esperanto -acx-''
  
Late last year I received a delivery of several boxes of the Complete
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And I think it's not good for the language, from a political standpoint, that it would make such a big fuss about anglicisms being "not tolerated by its speakers."  Let's face it; if I'm someone who's at all nervous about learning a new language (which I'm not), or if I'm someone who's at all timid about experimenting with a new language around people who are fluent in it (which I totally am), why would I spend my time on a language where I perceive that I'll be cussed out if I make a mistake or fall back on features of my native language?  It's probably quite an easy assumption to make, considering a lot of Lojban-related web pages I've visited in the last month have mentioned malglico in very visible places, almost always translating it with one curse word or another.
  
Lojban Language from Lojbab through his relative, and ever since, I
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And I'd like to compare this to my timidity in other languages.  I learned Spanish in high school for four years, which means I'm totally not fluent in it.  High school language classes are the kind of environment where you get grades not by expressing thoughts or by being understood, but by getting grammatical nit-picks correct, so by the time I've grammar-checked "�Cuando llega el autob�s?", the bus has already arrived and left without me because I've been flipping through my dictionary.  JapaneseLanguage, with its myriad rules of etiquette, had originally scared me, until people assured me that with my big round blue eyes I'd be forgiven for many breaches of etiquette on the grounds that I'm a Western barbarian and Japanese is pridefully difficult.  And I'm probably more confident and competent speaking in French thanks to FrenchInAction, though I've had bad experiences at a French chatters' club where there was this one lady there who seemed to think I was the only one who was not allowed to fall back on English when I didn't know the French.  And a few days ago I started exercising my EsperantoLanguage on IRC, consulting my dictionary almost as constantly as I was apologizing for wild guesses I made about things I didn't want to look up, but the people there were very nice.  Probably because Esperanto colture seems to be very laid-back and welcoming.  While I've occasionally read about points of grammar English-speakers have trouble with, I get the impression that berating English-speakers low on the learning curve isn't a part of Esperanto culture.
  
have taken over order fulfillment. Sales are brisk. I am soon to
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As for how native English-speakers treat people who speak EnglishAsaSecondLanguage, that's probably a rich enough topic for another web page. But suffice it to say, my AmericanCulturalAssumption is that when I go to some other country and speak one of these other languages, if I do make a mistake, there will be some kind of Ladka effect and women will think I'm cute. Except in Lojbanistan, where if I commit the crime of malglico, I will be put in the stocks, and be forced to sew a giant lowercase "m" on all my clothing, and women will spit on me as they walk past.  (See the book "Me Talk Pretty One Day" by David Sedaris)
  
receive an LLG credit card with which to make shipments, for greater
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--NickBensema  (p.s. What's Lojban for "AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs"?)(''ro ledo jicmu du le se ponse be mi'a'' has been suggested.)
  
fiduciary accountability.
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No, Nick, we don't get mad at poor lojban, I do just fine on the list and my lojban isn't the best. But MalGlico is frowned upon because it is the opposite of what lojban stands for. .i ti patfu mi means the same as .i ti du le mi patfu, but the most common form of MalGlico is saying the latter, which ''implies'' this is mathematically equal to my father. Quite simply, MalGlico typically encompasses a total disuse of the ''loj'' part of ''lojban''. If you need to check the gismu list and stick to simple bridi, fine. but if you ignore the grammar, a throwback to your NativeLanguage, then we will politely explain how to say it better if you're new at it, an otherwise you will be advised to get out a nice asbestos suit.
  
The Lojban Festival at Penguicon was exciting and got a lot of people
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''And you know, friendliness to beginners is all well and good, but only works when you've got an established norm, and a community of fluent language speakers. In a language community as pathological (or if you prefer, non-prototypical) and fragile as Lojbanistan, this kind of vigilance does more good than harm. This is less of an issue in Esperanto, but still enough of one for Esperantists to warn against transference from other languages; there have been satires of Hungarisms in the early poems of such acknowledged Masters as Julio Baghy, for example. So the comparison of learning Lojban and learning Spanish is unfair, I'd say.''
  
interested in the language. Robin, Clsn, Pierre, Tene, and Bancus were
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----
  
among the Lojbanists in attendance, and of course I was there since I
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Could you please analyze
  
chaired Penguicon.
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.i ti patfu mi
  
Last year, I said that if you elected me President of the Board, I
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''This is-the-father-of me.''
  
would accept, but not do anything until after I was done chairing
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''This is my father.''
  
Penguicon. That (and running PodDisc.com, and going back to school)
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and
  
ate up my life completely until May. I originally intended to have
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.i ti du le mi patfu
  
already begun several initiatives between May and now, which bear a
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''This is-equal-to the my father.''
  
lot of resemblance to several of the ideas presented recently by
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''This is my father.''
  
Cosmic Ray. As it turns out, my life has been pretty busy since then
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in *detail*, so that those lojban ignorant readers (like me) are able to understand what this is all about.
  
as well. I apologize for that.
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''sure.''
  
Please let me know if you have any questions!
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patfu: x1 is a father of x2; x1 begets/sires/acts paternal towards x2; [[jbocre: not necessarily biological|not necessarily biological]]
  
-Matt Arnold
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ti: ''this'', as in the thing I'm pointing to.
  
President
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mi: ''I, me'' - See LojbanicPronouns
  
Logical Language Group
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le: an article describing what the speaker has in mind, and is roughly equivalent to English ''the''.
  
~/pp~
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le patfu: something which can fill the x1 place of patfu ''(and which is something the speaker and presumably the listener has in mind.)''
  
===  Officer's Reports ===
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le mi patfu: Like ''le patfu'', but it also claims that the speaker (''mi'') is associated with the father.
  
~pp~
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du: is [[jbocre: connotes a mathematical 'is-equal-to'|connotes a mathematical 'is-equal-to']] ''(specifies different ways to refer to the same thing.)''
  
Treasurer's Report
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''ti patfu mi'' puts ''ti'' into the first place of ''patfu'' and ''mi'' into the second place.
  
------------------
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''ti du le mi patfu'' means ''this = my father (the father associated with me)'', saying that both ''ti'' and ''le mi patfu'' refer to the same thing.
  
The main account balances at $5,664.41
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Since ti patfu mi means this is a father of me, it is non-lojbanic to rely on du for is when this is not necessary.
  
The paypal account balances at $325.34
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: ''That depends on what your definition of 'is' is.'' - Bill Clinton
  
We lost $10 due to me being late this quarter; I'd pay it out of
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(''.i'' is the word used to separate sentences, and is not required at the beginning of a text.)
  
pocket, but there's actually no way to do that, the tax board draws
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''The two sentences aren't strictly equivalent, but they can probably both be used in the same way, since we normally only have one father, and we're normally only associated with the one that is "ours". The second sentence mimics the grammatical structure of EnglishLanguage, is wordier, and is less exact (since the exact relationship between "mi" and the father in question isn't specified). It also uses the word "du", which is often considered inherently MalGlico outside of logic and math contexts.''
  
from our account.
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(Lojban for ''father'' is ''patfu'', not ''pafta'', as originally written.)
  
The board spent $824.50 on sending people to LogFest.  This came
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To cut a long story short:
  
entirely out of the PayPal account; we did not need to touch the
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*''ti patfu mi'': This fathers me
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*''ti du le patfu be mi'': This equals to the father of me
  
main account for that at all.
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The first is good Lojban, and alien to English. The second is closer to English, and somewhat silly as Lojban. It is characterised as a beginner's mistake, and justly hounded.
  
~/pp~
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Accepted by acclamation.
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(A nonpejorative word is ''glijbo'' for this sort of sub-''lobykai'' usage.
  
===  Committee Reports ===
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In fact, the word ''malglico'' itself is rather "malglico", to my way
  
~pp~
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of thinking. It's a ''glicykai mabla jboselsku'', after all...)
  
BPFK Report and Secretary Report
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----
  
--------------------------------
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(end static copy)
  
Neither the secretary nor the BPFK jatna (who take a shower with
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ti du le mi patfu is excessively wordy, thus missing out on the sweet elegance of the place structures. That's not the clearest example of malglico I have seen. ''Do you consider the "Soon her eye fell on a little glass box" line a clearer example? If so, we should mention that on the C2 wiki.''
  
each other every morning, as clsn puts it) have anything of
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Esperanto isn't trying to create a culture-free environment in the face of overwhelming, dare I say hegemonic pressures from outside. We are. And without a hard line against lapses, Lojban will become Longlish very soon. However, I am probably notorious by now for complaining about what I interpret as a newbie-hostile environment, created by what seems to be obsessive perfectionism in grammar and uncooperative interpretations of texts. We should all strive to be the best we can, but I think that advanced language skills require a phase in the beginning where errors are made freely. If errors are inhibited the student does not feel comfortable passing through that phase, and after all there are so many equally interesting and more relaxed pastimes available. If the Lojban folks flame and the Esperanto folks encourage, we are filtering out all but the thickest-skinned, most dedicated freaks that come stumbling in. We seem to end up with people who, whether or not they know the language well enough to discuss with it, enjoy nothing so much as discussing Lojban grammar.
  
significance to report.
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--xod
  
-Robin
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Correcting someone is not the same as flaming. If people aren't corrected, the road to good language use will be much harder. Also, I have yet to see someone say ''"please don't correct me; I'm just beginning."''
  
-- snip --
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''I recommend you check out the Klingon mailing list some time. Some are gentle with beginners, some not --- but all firmly insist on correctness. Beginners' posts are prefixed with KLBG, and are to be first responded to by the list's Beginners' Grammarian; then they're open season. (Jumping in to correct a beginner is regarded as breach of etiquette.) [[jbocre: Yes, you can guess who I am|Yes, you can guess who I am]]''
  
As usual, of you, or anyone you know of, is chomping at the bit to
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''How obnoxiously hierarchically Klingon!''
  
help the community, the BPFK is the most important thing we need to
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Oh my god! Its the Klingon Fairy!
  
do, and we could use the help.
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''.i do ka'e ckasu .i ku'i le bangrtlingana mriste ciste cu jai snada gi'e mapti lo cnino ke runti bangu poi na djica lenu lei cnino cilre cu xlaxlura ke'a .i do na ba'o cipra ledu'u na'e snada tu'a ji'a la lojban. .i ji'a leka lidne noi mabla fi do cu se milxyri'a lenu leka ce'u cfacilre genpre cu cenba''
  
-Robin
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----
  
~/pp~
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When getting acquainted to Lojban, I got the (right!) idea of the term {malglico} prior to knowing the exact meaning of {mabla}, so I never have been associating it with depreciatory terms like "f... English" or "da...English" (so common - and  apparently so "existential" - a term for a global language representing western civilization).
  
Accepted by acclamation.
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As I understand it - following  [[User:tsali|tsali]]'s comprehensive [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/malglico.html iscussion of the concept, with examples] - {malglico} is *not* bringing into Lojban a specific natlang view, but to *sin* against the grammatical nature (structure etc.) of this new conlang. Since the main part of Lojbanists being native English speakers, anglicisms are quite natural and of no greater harm (don't think that most of them are at all aware of this fact) as long as the very nature of Lojban isn't violated. The Anglo-American world (like the British language community) always has been an "isolated" one, to a degree that, idiomatically, there's hardly a connection to (non-English) European languages (even Hungarian, Finnish etc. are idiomatically more related and closer to other European languages than to English/American). This could be dangerous for the character of Lojban and it's claim for cultural "neutrality" (don't like the word, though).
  
===  Election of New Members ===
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'''Lojban should be open to all cultural influences - and at the same time preserve its own specific character!'''
  
no new members have been elected
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Also, I don't think that coining new expressions for e.g. "university" or "health" in the good sense of Latin would be unlojbanic or {malylatmo}: This, for instance, was done by very scholarly Hungarian linguists who created "egyetem" and "eg�szs�g" - expressing the idea of "one-ness"/universitas and "whole-ness"/integritas. Nor would it be an expression following the idea of Mandarin "da xue" - great knowledge. But it surely would if those coinages - McDonald-like - were modelled by only one big-big language: malglico! -mu'o mi'e .aulun.
  
===  Removal of Old Members ===
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'' As a side note on that, English'' health ''is actually the time-altered form of wholeness from back when that was something like '' wholth.
  
~pp~
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This is very interesting (will look for it in my etymologic sources).
 
 
Last November, I asked certain non-participatory people if they
 
 
 
still wanted to be members, and then never got around to removing
 
 
 
those that said no; I'm doing so now.
 
 
 
Gregory Dyke
 
 
 
Nick Nicholas
 
 
 
Robin Turner
 
 
 
are no longer LLG members.
 
 
 
They're off the mailing list too, as of just before I sent this
 
 
 
message.
 
 
 
-Robin
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
The following members were removed.
 
 
 
* Jordan DeLong
 
* Alexandra Miles-Lasseter
 
 
 
* Adam Raizen
 
* David Twery
 
 
 
===  Election of the Board ===
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
MOVED:
 
 
 
* To re-elect the current Board of Directors:
 
 
 
* Robin Lee Powell
 
 
 
* Robert LeChevalier
 
 
 
* Matt Arnold
 
 
 
* Arnt Richard Johansen
 
 
 
* To give a heartfelt expression of thanks to the current Board of Directors.
 
 
 
PASSED, as amended.
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
===  Old Business ===
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
John Cowan brings to attention the level -2 flyers, now to be found here:
 
 
 
http://lojban.com/tiki/Lojban+Brochures
 
 
 
~/pp~
 
 
 
===  New Business ===
 
 
 
The LBCK, Lojban Certification Program was started with
 
 
 
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-lbck as their mailing list.
 
 
 
~pp~
 
 
 
The following motion is now under consideration, and, if there are no
 
 
 
objections, will pass by general consent on Monday at 18 UTC:
 
 
 
To form the lojbo bangu cipra kamni, or LBCK, comprised of Matt Arnold and
 
 
 
Mark Shoulson and whoever else the two of them appoint, as a committee empowered
 
 
 
by the LLG to create a Lojban Certification Program, with access to up to $500
 
 
 
of LLG funds to pay for the writing of the initial tests.
 
 
 
-- snip --
 
 
 
PASSED, by general consent.
 
 
 
~/pp~
 

Revision as of 17:04, 4 November 2013

malglico is Lojban for 'damned English', and is the concise way for Lojbanists to indicate they consider an expression or construction to be a poor carry-over from English, which is either erroneous (grammatically or semantically), or conveys inappropiate cultural bias.

malglico (The following is a static copy of [1] which see for updates.)

Meta-comment: I think such copying an exceedingly bad idea; a cross-reference should surely have been enough, and would have prevented drift between the two versions of the same text -- nitcion. I only did it because they erased the category it was in... The internal structure of the c2.com wiki is beside the point; the link to MalGlico still works...

Malglico is a LojbanLanguage term, best translated as ****ing English, used to refer to uses of the LojbanLanguage which actually fit better with the EnglishLanguage and are obvious examples of AmericanCulturalAssumption. Malglico uses of the LojbanLanguage are not tolerated by its speakers, as LojbanLanguage is trying to be a CulturallyNeutralLanguage. Malglico uses of it prevent such CulturalNeutrality.

I'm curious how much malglico is actually spotted by non-English-speakers? It wouldn't surprise me if it was just self-deprecation on the part of some particularly whiny Americans.

A question - are there similar terms for Lojban misuse in the style of other natural languages like French, or Japanese? I agree with the sentiment that a so-called neutral language is somewhat hypocritical if it singles out a particular natural language as singularly bad.

No instances have occurred, but when we get a more diverse population I'm sure they will. I find it unlikely that with (so far) an English speaking population with only one or two non-native EnglishLanguage speakers we'll see terms like malxurdo popping up, but it could happen later when native Urdu speakers learn lojban.

  • Actually, I would bet that by the time such words like malxurdo would begin to appear, malglico would evolve to a more general term: it currently means making faulty English in Lojban, and would probably evolve to mean making faulty Lojban, period. Then again, it's also possible to use malprenu, or some-such, as well.
  • nitcion ick used "charmingly maldotco" to describe Zamenhof's style in writing Esperanto; of course, this is not a use within Lojban yet.
  • If it's charming, it's certainly not mabla. Maybe something like "charmingly dotydu'e" would be better.

I guess I'm questioning the need to associate incorrect Lojban with a specific native language. What benefit is it to tag something as MalGlico versus <Lojban for incorrect grammar> ?? genselsrera

Bad grammar is a different thing entirely from trying to turn lojban into your native language. Since all of us speak English fluently (so far), MalGlico is the most common misuse. But people do misuse the grammar - but that happens in every language. In lojban, the grammar is so alien that malglico occurs, and it is worth remarking for one simple reason:

    • As a newbie, I did not understand what malglico was, and it took a long time to figure it out. Here it is nicely explained for us.
    • Bad grammar is common to every language. I know what bad grammar is. I did not know what malglico meant, we don't have it in English.

I still do not see why it is deemed necessary to have the pejorative contain the native language name. Why not just call it natural grammar or something that does not appear to condemn the specific natural language? It smacks of a political agenda to do otherwise --PeteHardie

A specifically English construction is malglico. A construction unique to Germanic languages has been dubbed malbrasmudotco. Natural Grammar would imply that these constructions are not unique to one language, but to all natural languages. This is patently false. If a malxurdo (see above) example and a malglico example of the same idea were seen side by side, they would look different, and we like to be specific. Yes, we do have a political agenda: Not showing any cultural bias. We have to point out the bias when it shows up before we can eliminate it entirely. And we have to say what it is.

Maintaining a separate culture is a common challenge to language communities nowadays, and complete isolationism is a path many take. It's a pity Lojban couldn't go some other way, though.

I guess I don't see the value of identifying the parent language of a misconstruction so specifically. It seems to veer too close to both an appearance of Lojban bias against specific mother tongues, and the syndrome of everything having a very specific name, but the remedy being the same - to restate the correct formation. --PeteHardie


Isn't it a little odd that an language that prides itself on being culturally neutral is the only one I'm aware of that has an apparently common curse word dealing with people who speak the language poorly? (See NorJbo.) EnglishLanguage has terms like "Spanglish" and "Engrish", and I've heard my high school Spanish teacher refer to malglico-like constructions in Spanish as "anglicisms", but neither of them translate into anything that has to be bleeped. In fact, the popularity of "malglico" seems to completely negate the cultural neutrality of the language.

actually a deficiency of English that it has to be ****d. In Lojban it's not a swear word, but English is unable to express certain sentiments without cursing. The people who translate the word could describe the undesirability of "mal-" any number of ways. The fact that they invariably choose TheFword, or at least words you can't say in school, reflects an overly emphatic attitude.

Quite simply, English cannot espress perjoratives without swearing, except in specific cases which don't happen to include the name of the language. Bad, pathetic, stupid, horrible, hateful, unwanted.

Sure, and I myself have used 'damned English' to translate malglico. Cf. Esperanto -acx-

And I think it's not good for the language, from a political standpoint, that it would make such a big fuss about anglicisms being "not tolerated by its speakers." Let's face it; if I'm someone who's at all nervous about learning a new language (which I'm not), or if I'm someone who's at all timid about experimenting with a new language around people who are fluent in it (which I totally am), why would I spend my time on a language where I perceive that I'll be cussed out if I make a mistake or fall back on features of my native language? It's probably quite an easy assumption to make, considering a lot of Lojban-related web pages I've visited in the last month have mentioned malglico in very visible places, almost always translating it with one curse word or another.

And I'd like to compare this to my timidity in other languages. I learned Spanish in high school for four years, which means I'm totally not fluent in it. High school language classes are the kind of environment where you get grades not by expressing thoughts or by being understood, but by getting grammatical nit-picks correct, so by the time I've grammar-checked "�Cuando llega el autob�s?", the bus has already arrived and left without me because I've been flipping through my dictionary. JapaneseLanguage, with its myriad rules of etiquette, had originally scared me, until people assured me that with my big round blue eyes I'd be forgiven for many breaches of etiquette on the grounds that I'm a Western barbarian and Japanese is pridefully difficult. And I'm probably more confident and competent speaking in French thanks to FrenchInAction, though I've had bad experiences at a French chatters' club where there was this one lady there who seemed to think I was the only one who was not allowed to fall back on English when I didn't know the French. And a few days ago I started exercising my EsperantoLanguage on IRC, consulting my dictionary almost as constantly as I was apologizing for wild guesses I made about things I didn't want to look up, but the people there were very nice. Probably because Esperanto colture seems to be very laid-back and welcoming. While I've occasionally read about points of grammar English-speakers have trouble with, I get the impression that berating English-speakers low on the learning curve isn't a part of Esperanto culture.

As for how native English-speakers treat people who speak EnglishAsaSecondLanguage, that's probably a rich enough topic for another web page. But suffice it to say, my AmericanCulturalAssumption is that when I go to some other country and speak one of these other languages, if I do make a mistake, there will be some kind of Ladka effect and women will think I'm cute. Except in Lojbanistan, where if I commit the crime of malglico, I will be put in the stocks, and be forced to sew a giant lowercase "m" on all my clothing, and women will spit on me as they walk past. (See the book "Me Talk Pretty One Day" by David Sedaris)

--NickBensema (p.s. What's Lojban for "AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs"?)(ro ledo jicmu du le se ponse be mi'a has been suggested.)

No, Nick, we don't get mad at poor lojban, I do just fine on the list and my lojban isn't the best. But MalGlico is frowned upon because it is the opposite of what lojban stands for. .i ti patfu mi means the same as .i ti du le mi patfu, but the most common form of MalGlico is saying the latter, which implies this is mathematically equal to my father. Quite simply, MalGlico typically encompasses a total disuse of the loj part of lojban. If you need to check the gismu list and stick to simple bridi, fine. but if you ignore the grammar, a throwback to your NativeLanguage, then we will politely explain how to say it better if you're new at it, an otherwise you will be advised to get out a nice asbestos suit.

And you know, friendliness to beginners is all well and good, but only works when you've got an established norm, and a community of fluent language speakers. In a language community as pathological (or if you prefer, non-prototypical) and fragile as Lojbanistan, this kind of vigilance does more good than harm. This is less of an issue in Esperanto, but still enough of one for Esperantists to warn against transference from other languages; there have been satires of Hungarisms in the early poems of such acknowledged Masters as Julio Baghy, for example. So the comparison of learning Lojban and learning Spanish is unfair, I'd say.


Could you please analyze

.i ti patfu mi

This is-the-father-of me.

This is my father.

and

.i ti du le mi patfu

This is-equal-to the my father.

This is my father.

in *detail*, so that those lojban ignorant readers (like me) are able to understand what this is all about.

sure.

patfu: x1 is a father of x2; x1 begets/sires/acts paternal towards x2; not necessarily biological

ti: this, as in the thing I'm pointing to.

mi: I, me - See LojbanicPronouns

le: an article describing what the speaker has in mind, and is roughly equivalent to English the.

le patfu: something which can fill the x1 place of patfu (and which is something the speaker and presumably the listener has in mind.)

le mi patfu: Like le patfu, but it also claims that the speaker (mi) is associated with the father.

du: is connotes a mathematical 'is-equal-to' (specifies different ways to refer to the same thing.)

ti patfu mi puts ti into the first place of patfu and mi into the second place.

ti du le mi patfu means this = my father (the father associated with me), saying that both ti and le mi patfu refer to the same thing.

Since ti patfu mi means this is a father of me, it is non-lojbanic to rely on du for is when this is not necessary.

That depends on what your definition of 'is' is. - Bill Clinton

(.i is the word used to separate sentences, and is not required at the beginning of a text.)

The two sentences aren't strictly equivalent, but they can probably both be used in the same way, since we normally only have one father, and we're normally only associated with the one that is "ours". The second sentence mimics the grammatical structure of EnglishLanguage, is wordier, and is less exact (since the exact relationship between "mi" and the father in question isn't specified). It also uses the word "du", which is often considered inherently MalGlico outside of logic and math contexts.

(Lojban for father is patfu, not pafta, as originally written.)

To cut a long story short:

  • ti patfu mi: This fathers me
  • ti du le patfu be mi: This equals to the father of me

The first is good Lojban, and alien to English. The second is closer to English, and somewhat silly as Lojban. It is characterised as a beginner's mistake, and justly hounded.


(A nonpejorative word is glijbo for this sort of sub-lobykai usage.

In fact, the word malglico itself is rather "malglico", to my way

of thinking. It's a glicykai mabla jboselsku, after all...)


(end static copy)

ti du le mi patfu is excessively wordy, thus missing out on the sweet elegance of the place structures. That's not the clearest example of malglico I have seen. Do you consider the "Soon her eye fell on a little glass box" line a clearer example? If so, we should mention that on the C2 wiki.

Esperanto isn't trying to create a culture-free environment in the face of overwhelming, dare I say hegemonic pressures from outside. We are. And without a hard line against lapses, Lojban will become Longlish very soon. However, I am probably notorious by now for complaining about what I interpret as a newbie-hostile environment, created by what seems to be obsessive perfectionism in grammar and uncooperative interpretations of texts. We should all strive to be the best we can, but I think that advanced language skills require a phase in the beginning where errors are made freely. If errors are inhibited the student does not feel comfortable passing through that phase, and after all there are so many equally interesting and more relaxed pastimes available. If the Lojban folks flame and the Esperanto folks encourage, we are filtering out all but the thickest-skinned, most dedicated freaks that come stumbling in. We seem to end up with people who, whether or not they know the language well enough to discuss with it, enjoy nothing so much as discussing Lojban grammar.

--xod

Correcting someone is not the same as flaming. If people aren't corrected, the road to good language use will be much harder. Also, I have yet to see someone say "please don't correct me; I'm just beginning."

I recommend you check out the Klingon mailing list some time. Some are gentle with beginners, some not --- but all firmly insist on correctness. Beginners' posts are prefixed with KLBG, and are to be first responded to by the list's Beginners' Grammarian; then they're open season. (Jumping in to correct a beginner is regarded as breach of etiquette.) Yes, you can guess who I am

How obnoxiously hierarchically Klingon!

Oh my god! Its the Klingon Fairy!

.i do ka'e ckasu .i ku'i le bangrtlingana mriste ciste cu jai snada gi'e mapti lo cnino ke runti bangu poi na djica lenu lei cnino cilre cu xlaxlura ke'a .i do na ba'o cipra ledu'u na'e snada tu'a ji'a la lojban. .i ji'a leka lidne noi mabla fi do cu se milxyri'a lenu leka ce'u cfacilre genpre cu cenba


When getting acquainted to Lojban, I got the (right!) idea of the term {malglico} prior to knowing the exact meaning of {mabla}, so I never have been associating it with depreciatory terms like "f... English" or "da...English" (so common - and apparently so "existential" - a term for a global language representing western civilization).

As I understand it - following tsali's comprehensive iscussion of the concept, with examples - {malglico} is *not* bringing into Lojban a specific natlang view, but to *sin* against the grammatical nature (structure etc.) of this new conlang. Since the main part of Lojbanists being native English speakers, anglicisms are quite natural and of no greater harm (don't think that most of them are at all aware of this fact) as long as the very nature of Lojban isn't violated. The Anglo-American world (like the British language community) always has been an "isolated" one, to a degree that, idiomatically, there's hardly a connection to (non-English) European languages (even Hungarian, Finnish etc. are idiomatically more related and closer to other European languages than to English/American). This could be dangerous for the character of Lojban and it's claim for cultural "neutrality" (don't like the word, though).

Lojban should be open to all cultural influences - and at the same time preserve its own specific character!

Also, I don't think that coining new expressions for e.g. "university" or "health" in the good sense of Latin would be unlojbanic or {malylatmo}: This, for instance, was done by very scholarly Hungarian linguists who created "egyetem" and "eg�szs�g" - expressing the idea of "one-ness"/universitas and "whole-ness"/integritas. Nor would it be an expression following the idea of Mandarin "da xue" - great knowledge. But it surely would if those coinages - McDonald-like - were modelled by only one big-big language: malglico! -mu'o mi'e .aulun.

As a side note on that, English health is actually the time-altered form of wholeness from back when that was something like wholth.

This is very interesting (will look for it in my etymologic sources).