la lojban. po'u le lojbo lojbau: Difference between revisions

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I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in [[Lojban]] to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are.
I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are.
* la [[About Lojban|lojban]]. - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like [[Lojban]] which is not [[Lojban]] itself would not be called Lojban.
 
* [[lojbo|lojbo]] - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the [[gimste|gimste]] says, "x1 reflects [[Loglan|Loglandic]]/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the [[jboste|jboste]] is [[lojbo]] even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be [[lojbo|lojbo]], but it would not be [[Lojban]].
* la [[jbocre: About Lojban|lojban]]. - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] which is not [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] itself would not be called Lojban.
** Yup. Hence in the [[Lojban Anthem|Lojban Anthem]], the chorus refers to both ''le bangu'' and ''le terbau'' as ''lojbo''.
* [[lojbo|lojbo]] - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the [[gi'uste|gi'uste]] says, "x1 reflects [[jbocre: Loglandic|Loglandic]]/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] is [[lojbo|lojbo]] even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be [[lojbo|lojbo]], but it would not be [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]].
** Hence the x2 of ''lojbo'': a message of the mailing list (it is '''not''' a ''liste'') would be something like ''lojbo le ka casnu [[ce'u|ce'u]]''
 
*** Enough people call it the [[jboste|jboste]] that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A [[jboste|jboste]] does not necessarily have to be a <font color="#777777">{{jvs|</font>liste<font color="#777777">}}</font>, because of the way lujvo work.
** Yup. Hence in the [[jbocre: Lojban Anthem|Lojban Anthem]], the chorus refers to both ''le bangu'' and ''le terbau'' as ''lojbo''.
** So doesn't that mean that [[Loglan|Loglan]] is [[lojbo|lojbo]] and hence counts as a ''lojbo lojbau''?
** Hence the x2 of ''lojbo'': a message of the mailing list (it is '''not''' a ''liste'') would be something like ''lojbo le ka casnu [[jbocre: ce'u|ce'u]]''
 
*** Enough people call it the [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A [[jbocre: jboste|jboste]] does not necessarily have to be a [[liste|liste]], because of the way lujvo work.
** So doesn't that mean that [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]] is [[lojbo|lojbo]] and hence counts as a ''lojbo lojbau''?
 
*** pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip.
*** pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip.
* [[lojbau|lojbau]] - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the [[lujvo|lujvo]] list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3".
* [[lojbau|lojbau]] - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the [[lujvo|lujvo]] list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3".
** If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then ''lojbau'' is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of ''selylojbau''. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a ''lojyselcmubau''.
** If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then ''lojbau'' is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of ''selylojbau''. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a ''lojyselcmubau''.
*** Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the [[jbocre: veljvo|veljvo]] is ''logji se jicmu bangu''. Neither place of ''jicmu'' provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance  with [[jbocre: seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] to omit ''jicmu'', resulting in the lujvo: ''lojbau''. If you don't believe me, look at the "[[lange'u heepdog|lange'u heepdog]]" example in the book.
*** Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the [[veljvo|veljvo]] is ''logji se jicmu bangu''. Neither place of ''jicmu'' provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance  with [[seljvajvo|seljvajvo]] to omit ''jicmu'', resulting in the lujvo: ''lojbau''. If you don't believe me, look at the "[[lange'u|sheepdog]]" example in the book.
 
**** ''logji zei selcmu'' -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow.
**** ''logji zei selcmu'' -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow.
***** I wasn't talking about omitting ''logji'', but ''jicmu''. The only '''j'''-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting ''jicmu'' would not change the place structure. ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' thus has the same places as ''logji zei bangu'' = ''lojbau''.
***** I wasn't talking about omitting ''logji'', but ''jicmu''. The only '''j'''-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting ''jicmu'' would not change the place structure. ''lojyselcmu zei bangu'' thus has the same places as ''logji zei bangu'' = ''lojbau''.
****** Similar place structure, but ''logji bangu'' would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same.
****** Similar place structure, but ''logji bangu'' would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same.
*** a ''bangu fi lo logji'' could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] is also a system with the same goals, so [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a ''lojyselcmubau'').
*** a ''bangu fi lo logji'' could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and [[Lojban]] is also a system with the same goals, so [[Lojban]] is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a ''lojyselcmubau'').
 
* la [[Loglan|loglan]]. - This either refers to the predecessor to [[Lojban]], or a sheep of some sort.
* la [[loglan|loglan]]. - This either refers to the predecessor to [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]], or a sheep of some sort.
** Which is also officially ''dzelojbo''.
** Which is also officially ''dzelojbo''.
 
** It does not refer to a sheep; [[cmene|cmene]] are not (reliably) analyzable.
** It does not refer to a sheep; [[jbocre: cmene|cmene]] are not (reliably) analyzable.
** It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence ''la''.
** It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence ''la''.
 
* [[jbobau|jbobau]] - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is [[Lojban]], ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban''. I think this is more specific when used in a [[tanru|tanru]] than ''lojbau''. It also parallels the use of ''glibau'' in that sense.
* [[jbocre: jbobau|jbobau]] - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]], ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban''. I think this is more specific when used in a [[tanru|tanru]] than ''lojbau''. It also parallels the use of ''glibau'' in that sense.
** This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: ''xu jbobau do''
** This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: ''xu jbobau do''
** ''jbo'' is from ''lojbo'', and since [[Loglan|Loglan]] is ''lojbo'' this means that ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban. .a la loglan.'' However, it does now exclude [[gua\spi]], [[Plan B|Plan B]], and [[Liva|Liva]].
* [[Lojban]] may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page.
** Not redundant given [[The Founders]] polemic ("Lojban '''is''' Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to.
** Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gimste. So it is still not the only one.


** ''jbo'' is from ''lojbo'', and since [[jbocre: Loglan|Loglan]] is ''lojbo'' this means that ''le jbobau'' = ''la lojban. .a la loglan.'' However, it does now exclude [[gua\spi]], [[jbocre: Plan B|Plan B]], and [[jbocre: Liva|Liva]].
--[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]
* [[jbocre: Lojban Description|Lojban Description]] may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page.
 
** Not redundant given [[jbocre: The F|Founders]] polemic ("Lojban '''is''' Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to.
** Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gi'uste. So it is still not the only one.
 
--[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]


----
----


Aside, I think it should be ''la lojban. '''no'u''' le lojbo lojbau''.
Aside, I think it should be ''la lojban. '''no'u''' le lojbo lojbau''.
* Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of lojban.org is wrong?
* Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of lojban.org is wrong?
 
I'd go with ''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban.'' because so far it has not managed to exclude the ''[[Loglan|dzebau]]'', which is ''lojbo'' and a ''lojbau'' and thus a ''lojbo lojbau'', as well as a ''jbobau'' because it is certainly a ''bangu'' - '''''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.'''''
I'd go with ''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban.'' because so far it has not managed to exclude the ''[[jbocre: Loglan zebau|Loglan zebau]]'', which is ''lojbo'' and a ''lojbau'' and thus a ''lojbo lojbau'', as well as a ''jbobau'' because it is certainly a ''bangu'' - '''''la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.'''''
* I'd at least say that Loglan is less [[lojbo|lojbo]] than Lojban. Also, I maintain that ''la lojban'' = ''le jbobau''; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is ''lojbo je bangu'' is ''jbobau''. Lujvo are not tanru. --[[rab.spir|rab.spir]]
 
** There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - ''x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3'' still includes Loglan because ''in lojban'' lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - ''.i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau'' for instance. mi'e [[.kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
* I'd at least say that Loglan is less [[lojbo|lojbo]] than Lojban. Also, I maintain that ''la lojban'' = ''le jbobau''; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is ''lojbo je bangu'' is ''jbobau''. Lujvo are not tanru. --[[jbocre: rab.spir|rab.spir]]
** There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - ''x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3'' still includes Loglan because ''in lojban'' lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - ''.i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau'' for instance. mi'e [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]
 
*** You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of ''any'' predicate. Sure, Loglan can ''jbobau'', just like a cat box can ''stizu''. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say ''le jbobau''.
*** You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of ''any'' predicate. Sure, Loglan can ''jbobau'', just like a cat box can ''stizu''. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say ''le jbobau''.
**** But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting ''le jbobau'' as being ''la lojban. .e la loglan.'' for this is a valid meaning of ''le jbobau''.
**** But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting ''le jbobau'' as being ''la lojban. .e la loglan.'' for this is a valid meaning of ''le jbobau''.

Latest revision as of 11:19, 7 June 2014

I've been thinking about the large number of different ways in Lojban to say "Lojban" or something like it. I finally decided to figure out what the differences are.

  • la lojban. - This refers to the specific language we're speaking. Any other language like Lojban which is not Lojban itself would not be called Lojban.
  • lojbo - Refers to anything Lojbanic. As the gimste says, "x1 reflects Loglandic/Lojbanic language/culture/nationality/community in aspect x2". So a message on the jboste is lojbo even if it's in English. And if the whole Lojbanic community suddenly started speaking a different language, that language would be lojbo, but it would not be Lojban.
    • Yup. Hence in the Lojban Anthem, the chorus refers to both le bangu and le terbau as lojbo.
    • Hence the x2 of lojbo: a message of the mailing list (it is not a liste) would be something like lojbo le ka casnu ce'u
      • Enough people call it the jboste that the word has acquired a meaning of its own. A jboste does not necessarily have to be a {{{1}}}, because of the way lujvo work.
    • So doesn't that mean that Loglan is lojbo and hence counts as a lojbo lojbau?
      • pe'i ja'a go'i .i ke'u va'i la loglan cu lojbo lojbau .i mi'e filip.
  • lojbau - This, interestingly enough, means what the word "loglan" supposedly means in English. From the places in the lujvo list: "x1 is a logical language used by x2 to express/communicate x3".
    • If the language is used to describe/talk about a logic, then lojbau is correct. If it is used to talk about things that a logic talks about, it's a short form of selylojbau. If you mean that a logic is the basis of the language, it is a lojyselcmubau.
      • Okay. You sort of have a point there, so say the veljvo is logji se jicmu bangu. Neither place of jicmu provides any extra information to the places of this lujvo we're forming, so it's perfectly in accordance with seljvajvo to omit jicmu, resulting in the lujvo: lojbau. If you don't believe me, look at the "sheepdog" example in the book.
        • logji zei selcmu -> {j2 j1=l1 l2}, lojyselcmu zei bangu -> {b1=j2 b2 b3 j1=l1 l2}. At the very least you have to add the l1 place at the end to show what logic it's based on. I suppose you could omit the l2 since it's dependent on the l1. It the last place, so it doesn't matter much anyhow.
          • I wasn't talking about omitting logji, but jicmu. The only j-places you have are merged with other places, so omitting jicmu would not change the place structure. lojyselcmu zei bangu thus has the same places as logji zei bangu = lojbau.
            • Similar place structure, but logji bangu would be something like {b1 b2 b3=l1 l2}. At any rate, they have different meanings, whether or not the place structures are exactly the same.
      • a bangu fi lo logji could be something like those turned A's and E's that logicians use, and Lojban is also a system with the same goals, so Lojban is a lojbau (which is different, however, from a lojyselcmubau).
  • la loglan. - This either refers to the predecessor to Lojban, or a sheep of some sort.
    • Which is also officially dzelojbo.
    • It does not refer to a sheep; cmene are not (reliably) analyzable.
    • It's not even a valid cmene as it contains the sequence la.
  • jbobau - "x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3". Since the only language that is Lojbanic is Lojban, le jbobau = la lojban. I think this is more specific when used in a tanru than lojbau. It also parallels the use of glibau in that sense.
    • This gives a very short way to ask if someone speaks Lojban: xu jbobau do
    • jbo is from lojbo, and since Loglan is lojbo this means that le jbobau = la lojban. .a la loglan. However, it does now exclude gua\spi, Plan B, and Liva.
  • Lojban may not be the only logical language (logji bangu), but it is the only Lojbanic loglan (lojbo lojbau), giving rise to the rather redundant title of this page.
    • Not redundant given The Founders polemic ("Lojban is Loglan") --- which later generations, however, haven't paid much mind to.
    • Also remember that officially, lojbo includes loglan, according to my gimste. So it is still not the only one.

--rab.spir


Aside, I think it should be la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau.

  • Perhaps. Does this mean the text on the front page of lojban.org is wrong?

I'd go with la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau noi se cmene zo lojban. because so far it has not managed to exclude the dzebau, which is lojbo and a lojbau and thus a lojbo lojbau, as well as a jbobau because it is certainly a bangu - la lojban. no'u le lojbo lojbau poi se cmene zo lojban.

  • I'd at least say that Loglan is less lojbo than Lojban. Also, I maintain that la lojban = le jbobau; you made an unfounded assumption that everything that is lojbo je bangu is jbobau. Lujvo are not tanru. --rab.spir
    • There is no relation you can give between lojbo and bangu that excludes loglan. I did read your intended place structure just now - x1 is a Lojbanic language used by x2 to express/communicate x3 still includes Loglan because in lojban lojbanic (lojbo) includes loglan. Thus loglan is a jbobau - .i le dzebau la rabrt.mkaivor (noi ji'a se cmene la rabrt.seriraivor. fau lenu do gleki lenu fanva le paftycmene ku ku ku) da cu jbobau for instance. mi'e .kreig.daniyl.
      • You can rarely exclude a certain thing from filling a place (in this case, x1) of any predicate. Sure, Loglan can jbobau, just like a cat box can stizu. That doesn't mean it's what I have in mind when I say le jbobau.
        • But you couldn't say someone was worng for interpreting le jbobau as being la lojban. .e la loglan. for this is a valid meaning of le jbobau.