jbovlaste import Perioda Tabelo de la Elementoj lang eo: Difference between revisions

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A long running, and apparently unresolvable dispute in the Lojban community is between those emphasising logical and grammatical rigor ("Logical Language"), and those emphasising creativity and perspective-expanding usage ("Sapir-Whorf"). A rallying point is whether or not Lojban should have an explicit semantic theory or not. "Hardliners" refers to the former.


''What is a semantic theory, and how do we get one without using a language? And if we use a language, how are we doing anything but importing the semantics of that source language into Lojban? Can you prove to me that you know the meaning of ANY word?--xod''
==== lo dikni cartu be lo selratni ====


# You use the results of formal semantics, a research field that has been churning along nicely for many a year now.
|H||||||||||||||||||He
# Lojban has already adopted a lot of formal semantics in its definition. It has fixed and defined place structures, for example, and transformations for generating prenexed forms of sentences from unprenexed forms. The issue is, how much more fixed and defined they should be.
#The completeness or not of a semantic theory is not the point; the point is, should there be further attempts at defining the semantics of Lojban words in a formal manner --- including gismu amd cmavo --- or not.
#Obviously there is a risk of importing source language semantics into Lojban through a formal approach. The risk does not go away with 'natural evolution', given the speaker-base of the language. Indeed, if semantics is left completely informal, there is a good chance the risk is actually greater. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]


''I'll come up with a counter-epithet in the fullness of time. -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]''
|{jvsv cidro}||||||||||||||||||{jvsv solnavni}


''Toffee-liners? -- [[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]]'' For now, I'm using the less tendentious (!) 'naturalists'. This is a distant echo of the skemistoj/naturalistoj (= lujvo vs. fu'ivla) controversy of Esperanto, after all. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|{jvsn hidrogeno general=1}||||||||||||||||||{jvsn heliumo general=1}


What about ''javnykai xarnu'' and ''tavlykai xarnu'' for these positions?
|Li|Be||||||||||||B|C|N|O|F|Ne


*I'd prefer rarnykai to tavlykai, but that's not for a javnykai xarnu to say. -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|{jvsv roksodna}|{jvsv jinmrberilo}||||||||||||{jvsv jicmrboro}|{jvsv tabno}|{jvsv trano}|{jvsv kijno}|{jvsv li'orkliru}|{jvsv navni}
*''I'm not sure either term gets the point across. One term should emphasize Logic, the other term should emphasize conceptual or experiential exploration. .i le lojypre le frisispre cu [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jbosnu/message/327 relpro] .i mi'e xod''


There is also a third position, of those who think that logical and grammatical rigor are not in conflict with creativity and perspective-expansion, but rather that they complement and potentiate each other. -- mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]].
|{jvsn litio general=1}|{jvsn berilo general=1}||||||||||||{jvsn boro general=1}|{jvsn karbono general=1}|{jvsn nitrogeno general=1}|{jvsn oksigeno general=1}|{jvsn fluoro general=1}|{jvsn neono general=1}


* Yes, but you know the aphorism about "those in the middle of the road" :-) ... For issues like how a Lojban dictionary is to be written --- or whether it should even be written at all --- one still has to take a position.  In reality, of course, Lojbanists tend to be in between; these are rhetorical abstractions from the debates that recur in the language community. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
|Na|Mg||||||||||||Al|Si|P|S|Cl|Ar


''It's not a "middle of the road" (at least not in the sense of a compromise between the two); it's the position that both rigor and creativity are important, equally so, and non-negotiable, and that neither need be, nor should be, compromised. -- Adam''
|{jvsv sodna}|{jvsv lidgusyjinme}||||||||||||{jvsv jinmrmalume}|{jvsv cancmu}|{jvsv sackycmu}|{jvsv sliri}|{jvsv kliru}|{jvsv laznynavni}


Another recurring demand of hardliners is that an Academy be set up to supervise the evolution of Lojban. Gerald Koenig and Steven Belkamp were particuarly in favour of this, in discussion Nov. 95 - Feb 96. [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] is particularly adamant against it. Representative threads:
|{jvsn natrio general=1}|{jvsn magnezio general=1}||||||||||||{jvsn aluminio general=1}|{jvsn silicio general=1}|{jvsn fosforo general=1}|{jvsn sulfuro general=1}|{jvsn kloro general=1}|{jvsn argono general=1}
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00037.html
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00232.html
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9602/msg00041.html
The caricature simplification of the two positions on the language is that hardliners support prescriptivism, rigorous definition of the language, and the logical content of the language. Naturalists support descriptivism, and avoidance of fully defining the language, creativity, and the natural evolution of the language.
#Most Lojbanists really are somewhere in between.
#Neither attitude is going away any time soon. (The calls for a semantic theory or an Academy that are being made now have been made in the past, for example; e.g. Jeff Prothero in 1991, exclaiming "Better a bicycle without wheels than a loglan without formal semantics!": http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9102/msg00006.html).
#Although there are clear attempts at compromise, the two attitudes are incommensurable, and this may have undesirable consequences (dialectisation).
#Inasmuch as there is a party line espoused by the [[jbocre: LLG|LLG]], that line is clearly naturalistic.
----
Nonslang is called by the people who use slang, ''tatpi valsi'' ('tired words'), but by the people who don't, ''satci valsi'' ('accurate words').


''Woah! Pretty much identical terminology is used in Klingon!'' (''mu'mey Doy''' and ''mu'mey qar''.)
|K|Ca||Sc|Ti|V|Cr|Mn|Fe|Co|Ni|Cu|Zn|Ga|Ge|As|Se|Br|Kr


They undoubtedly borrowed our usage.
|{jvsv sodnrkali}|{jvsv bogjinme}||{jvsv jinmrskandi}|{jvsv jinmrtitani}|{jvsv jinmrvanadi}|{jvsv rogjinme}|{jvsv jinmrmanga}|{jvsv tirse}|{jvsv ridjinme}|{jvsv nikle}|{jvsv tunka}|{jvsv zinki}|{jvsv fasyjinme}|{jvsv dotyjinme}|{jvsv arseniko}|{jvsv lurcmu}|{jvsv xunkliru}|{jvsv mipnavni}


''net Sov, net Sov...'' ('''ti'e''', or '''zo'e djuno la'edi'u''')
|{jvsn kalio general=1}|{jvsn kalcio general=1}||{jvsn skandio general=1}|{jvsn titanio general=1}|{jvsn vanado general=1}|{jvsn kromo general=1}|{jvsn mangano general=1}|{jvsn fero general=1}|{jvsn kobalto general=1}|{jvsn nikelo general=1}|{jvsn kupro general=1}|{jvsn zinko general=1}|{jvsn galiumo general=1}|{jvsn germaniumo general=1}|{jvsn arseno general=1}|{jvsn seleno general=1}|{jvsn bromo general=1}|{jvsn kriptono general=1}


----
|Rb|Sr||Y|Zr|Nb|Mo|Tc|Ru|Rh|Pd|Ag|Cd|In|Sn|Sb|Te|I|Xe


Inasmuch as I appear to be getting characterized as a Naturalist, if not the prototypical Naturalist:
|{jvsv xunsodna}|{jvsv jinmrstronti}||{jvsv jinmrtitri}|{jvsv jinmrzirkoni}|{jvsv jinmrniobi}|{jvsv mlibdena}|{jvsv runjinme}|{jvsv jinmlruteni}|{jvsv jinmlrodi}|{jvsv jinmrpaladi}|{jvsv rijno}|{jvsv jinmrkadmu}|{jvsv xinjinme}|{jvsv tinci}|{jvsv antimoni}|{jvsv tedjicmu}|{jvsv zirkliru}|{jvsv ciznavni}


My background is from Physics, Math, and Logical Positivism. I don't see Lojban to be significantly more accurate or precise than English, or hand gestures. This, on a different Wiki, would be considered a hardline view. The result is that I don't care too much for hyperspecification of Lojban because it, like anything else that isn't a deductive system, is just another bowl of oatmeal. --xod
|{jvsn rubidio general=1}|{jvsn stroncio general=1}||{jvsn itrio general=1}|{jvsn zirkonio general=1}|{jvsn niobo general=1}|{jvsn molibdeno general=1}|{jvsn teknecio general=1}|{jvsn rutenio general=1}|{jvsn rodio general=1}|{jvsn paladio general=1}|{jvsn argxento general=1}|{jvsn kadmio general=1}|{jvsn indio general=1}|{jvsn stano general=1}|{jvsn stibio general=1}|{jvsn teluro general=1}|{jvsn iodo general=1}|{jvsn ksenono general=1}


Noted. For my part, when I made the switch from computer science to linguistics, I made sure I joined up with the fluffiest, un-positivist-est linguistics I could: functionalism, historical linguistics, natural semantic metalanguage. I am allergic to syntax, and consider formal semantics beyond me. In my case, at least, I am a hardliner in Lojban because I am ''not'' a hardliner in real life. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|Cs|Ba||Lu|Hf|Ta|W|Re|Os|Ir|Pt|Au|Hg|Tl|Pb|Bi|Po|At|Rn


----
|{jvsv sodnrsezi}|{jvsv tijyjinme}|girzrlantano|{jvsv jinmrluteti}|{jvsv jinmrxafni}|{jvsv jinmrtantalu}|{jvsv gusyciljinme}|{jvsv jinmlreni}|{jvsv jinmrbosmi}|{jvsv jinmrdiridi}|{jvsv jinmrplati}|{jvsv solji}|{jvsv margu}|{jvsv jinmrtali}|{jvsv cnisa}|{jvsv jinmrbismu}|{jvsv jinmrpoloni}|{jvsv klirlxastati}|{jvsv dircynavni}


As [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] has helpfully pointed out (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9801), there are two hardlinerisms: hardliner towards the [[jbocre: baseline|baseline]] (''bangu kamstodi xarnu''), and hardliner towards [[jbocre: formal semantics|formal semantics]] (''logji bauske xarnu''). Discussion of hardlinerism to date seems to reflect the latter. The Academian thread of hardlinerism, however, reflects the former.
|{jvsn cezio general=1}|{jvsn bario general=1}|lantanidoj|{jvsn lutecio general=1}|{jvsn hafnio general=1}|{jvsn tantalo general=1}|{jvsn volframo general=1}|{jvsn renio general=1}|{jvsn osmio general=1}|{jvsn iridio general=1}|{jvsn plateno general=1}|{jvsn oro general=1}|{jvsn hidrargo general=1}|{jvsn talio general=1}|{jvsn plumbo general=1}|{jvsn bizmuto general=1}|{jvsn polonio general=1}|{jvsn astato general=1}|{jvsn radono general=1}


''I (mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]) think it might be useful to call the former something else, and propose [[jbocre: fundamentalism|fundamentalism]].''
|Fr|Ra||Lw|Rf||||||||||||||


[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] has on his wiki page an admirable statement of ''bangu kamstodi xarnu''.
|{jvsv fasysodna}|{jvsv dircyjinme}|girzrtaktini|{jvsv jinmrlorensi}|{jvsv jinmlruterfordi}||||||||||||||


----
|{jvsn franciumo general=1}|{jvsn radiumo general=1}|aktinidoj|{jvsn lauxrencio general=1}|{jvsn ruterfordio general=1}||||||||||||||


Is there a name for people who want to emphasize '''both''' "logical and grammatical rigor" '''and''' "creativity and perspective-expanding usage"? ''mi'e [[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax]]''
|||La|Ce|Pr|Nd|Pm|Sm|Eu|Gd|Tb|Dy|Ho|Er|Tu|Yb|||||


'Synthesist'? - mi'e JEsikas.
|||{jvsv jinmrlantano}|{jvsv jinmrseri}|{jvsv jinmrpraseodimi}|{jvsv jinmrneodimi}|{jvsv fagycevjinme}|{jvsv jinmrsamari}|{jvsv ronjinme}|{jvsv jinmrgadolini}|{jvsv jinmrterbi}|{jvsv jinmrdisprosi}|{jvsv jinmrxolmi}|{jvsv jinmrberbi}|{jvsv jinmrtuli}|{jvsv jinmrtiterbi}|||||


''Can you show that they are compatible, or that one induces the other?''
|||{jvsn lantano general=1}|{jvsn cerio general=1}|{jvsn prazeodimo general=1}|{jvsn neodimo general=1}|{jvsn promecio general=1}|{jvsn samario general=1}|{jvsn euxropio general=1}|{jvsn gadolino general=1}|{jvsn terbio general=1}|{jvsn disprozio general=1}|{jvsn holmio general=1}|{jvsn erbio general=1}|{jvsn tulio general=1}|{jvsn iterbio general=1}|||||


I would like to expand my perspective '''via''' logical and grammatical rigor. As I understand it, that was [[User:James Cooke Brown|JCB]]'s original motivation for inventing Loglan! ''mi'e [[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax]]''
|||Ac|Th|Pa|U|Np|Pu|Am|Cm|Bk|Cf|Es|Fm|Md|No|||||


''Then you need to build the '''''[[jbocre: ckinytadji|ckinytadji]]''''' dialect, because the level of logic in current standard Lojban is well below that used by pedantic undergrads debating religion late at night. Only when you make the metaphorical use of mathematical & logical descriptions much easier than they already are in English will you have any chance of the alteration of perceptions. If that's your goal and method, I'm with you! --xod''
|||{jvsv jinmrtaktini}|{jvsv lidycevjinme}|{jvsv jinmrprotaktini}|{jvsv jinmrvurani}|{jvsv jinmrneptuni}|{jvsv jinmrplutoni}|{jvsv merjinme}|{jvsv jinmrkuri}|{jvsv jinmrberkeli}|{jvsv jinmrkaliforni}|{jvsv jinmrtainctaini}|{jvsv jinmrfermi}|{jvsv jinmrmendelevi}|{jvsv jinmrnobeli}|||||


* I didn't know a whole lot of people in my undergrad days (hah, i can act like it was a long time ago, now!) who went about debating religion with any sort of pedantry. More like "you must have faith!" "you're on crack!" "you're going to hell!" "better than wherever you're going." but then again, i was in engineering school... --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
|||{jvsn aktinio general=1}|{jvsn torio general=1}|{jvsn protaktinio general=1}|{jvsn uranio general=1}|{jvsn neptunio general=1}|{jvsn plutonio general=1}|{jvsn americio general=1}|{jvsn kuriumo general=1}|{jvsn berkelio general=1}|{jvsn kaliforniumo general=1}|{jvsn ejnstejnio general=1}|{jvsn fermio general=1}|{jvsn mendelevio general=1}|{jvsv nobeliumo}|||||
 
----
 
Can anyone shed light for me (a lojban n00b) on how the precepts of [http://general-semantics.org/ eneral semantics] might impact the questions being raised here? Thanks. --rabrt

Revision as of 16:54, 4 November 2013

lo dikni cartu be lo selratni

|H||||||||||||||||||He

|{jvsv cidro}||||||||||||||||||{jvsv solnavni}

|{jvsn hidrogeno general=1}||||||||||||||||||{jvsn heliumo general=1}

|Li|Be||||||||||||B|C|N|O|F|Ne

|{jvsv roksodna}|{jvsv jinmrberilo}||||||||||||{jvsv jicmrboro}|{jvsv tabno}|{jvsv trano}|{jvsv kijno}|{jvsv li'orkliru}|{jvsv navni}

|{jvsn litio general=1}|{jvsn berilo general=1}||||||||||||{jvsn boro general=1}|{jvsn karbono general=1}|{jvsn nitrogeno general=1}|{jvsn oksigeno general=1}|{jvsn fluoro general=1}|{jvsn neono general=1}

|Na|Mg||||||||||||Al|Si|P|S|Cl|Ar

|{jvsv sodna}|{jvsv lidgusyjinme}||||||||||||{jvsv jinmrmalume}|{jvsv cancmu}|{jvsv sackycmu}|{jvsv sliri}|{jvsv kliru}|{jvsv laznynavni}

|{jvsn natrio general=1}|{jvsn magnezio general=1}||||||||||||{jvsn aluminio general=1}|{jvsn silicio general=1}|{jvsn fosforo general=1}|{jvsn sulfuro general=1}|{jvsn kloro general=1}|{jvsn argono general=1}

|K|Ca||Sc|Ti|V|Cr|Mn|Fe|Co|Ni|Cu|Zn|Ga|Ge|As|Se|Br|Kr

|{jvsv sodnrkali}|{jvsv bogjinme}||{jvsv jinmrskandi}|{jvsv jinmrtitani}|{jvsv jinmrvanadi}|{jvsv rogjinme}|{jvsv jinmrmanga}|{jvsv tirse}|{jvsv ridjinme}|{jvsv nikle}|{jvsv tunka}|{jvsv zinki}|{jvsv fasyjinme}|{jvsv dotyjinme}|{jvsv arseniko}|{jvsv lurcmu}|{jvsv xunkliru}|{jvsv mipnavni}

|{jvsn kalio general=1}|{jvsn kalcio general=1}||{jvsn skandio general=1}|{jvsn titanio general=1}|{jvsn vanado general=1}|{jvsn kromo general=1}|{jvsn mangano general=1}|{jvsn fero general=1}|{jvsn kobalto general=1}|{jvsn nikelo general=1}|{jvsn kupro general=1}|{jvsn zinko general=1}|{jvsn galiumo general=1}|{jvsn germaniumo general=1}|{jvsn arseno general=1}|{jvsn seleno general=1}|{jvsn bromo general=1}|{jvsn kriptono general=1}

|Rb|Sr||Y|Zr|Nb|Mo|Tc|Ru|Rh|Pd|Ag|Cd|In|Sn|Sb|Te|I|Xe

|{jvsv xunsodna}|{jvsv jinmrstronti}||{jvsv jinmrtitri}|{jvsv jinmrzirkoni}|{jvsv jinmrniobi}|{jvsv mlibdena}|{jvsv runjinme}|{jvsv jinmlruteni}|{jvsv jinmlrodi}|{jvsv jinmrpaladi}|{jvsv rijno}|{jvsv jinmrkadmu}|{jvsv xinjinme}|{jvsv tinci}|{jvsv antimoni}|{jvsv tedjicmu}|{jvsv zirkliru}|{jvsv ciznavni}

|{jvsn rubidio general=1}|{jvsn stroncio general=1}||{jvsn itrio general=1}|{jvsn zirkonio general=1}|{jvsn niobo general=1}|{jvsn molibdeno general=1}|{jvsn teknecio general=1}|{jvsn rutenio general=1}|{jvsn rodio general=1}|{jvsn paladio general=1}|{jvsn argxento general=1}|{jvsn kadmio general=1}|{jvsn indio general=1}|{jvsn stano general=1}|{jvsn stibio general=1}|{jvsn teluro general=1}|{jvsn iodo general=1}|{jvsn ksenono general=1}

|Cs|Ba||Lu|Hf|Ta|W|Re|Os|Ir|Pt|Au|Hg|Tl|Pb|Bi|Po|At|Rn

|{jvsv sodnrsezi}|{jvsv tijyjinme}|girzrlantano|{jvsv jinmrluteti}|{jvsv jinmrxafni}|{jvsv jinmrtantalu}|{jvsv gusyciljinme}|{jvsv jinmlreni}|{jvsv jinmrbosmi}|{jvsv jinmrdiridi}|{jvsv jinmrplati}|{jvsv solji}|{jvsv margu}|{jvsv jinmrtali}|{jvsv cnisa}|{jvsv jinmrbismu}|{jvsv jinmrpoloni}|{jvsv klirlxastati}|{jvsv dircynavni}

|{jvsn cezio general=1}|{jvsn bario general=1}|lantanidoj|{jvsn lutecio general=1}|{jvsn hafnio general=1}|{jvsn tantalo general=1}|{jvsn volframo general=1}|{jvsn renio general=1}|{jvsn osmio general=1}|{jvsn iridio general=1}|{jvsn plateno general=1}|{jvsn oro general=1}|{jvsn hidrargo general=1}|{jvsn talio general=1}|{jvsn plumbo general=1}|{jvsn bizmuto general=1}|{jvsn polonio general=1}|{jvsn astato general=1}|{jvsn radono general=1}

|Fr|Ra||Lw|Rf||||||||||||||

|{jvsv fasysodna}|{jvsv dircyjinme}|girzrtaktini|{jvsv jinmrlorensi}|{jvsv jinmlruterfordi}||||||||||||||

|{jvsn franciumo general=1}|{jvsn radiumo general=1}|aktinidoj|{jvsn lauxrencio general=1}|{jvsn ruterfordio general=1}||||||||||||||

|||La|Ce|Pr|Nd|Pm|Sm|Eu|Gd|Tb|Dy|Ho|Er|Tu|Yb|||||

|||{jvsv jinmrlantano}|{jvsv jinmrseri}|{jvsv jinmrpraseodimi}|{jvsv jinmrneodimi}|{jvsv fagycevjinme}|{jvsv jinmrsamari}|{jvsv ronjinme}|{jvsv jinmrgadolini}|{jvsv jinmrterbi}|{jvsv jinmrdisprosi}|{jvsv jinmrxolmi}|{jvsv jinmrberbi}|{jvsv jinmrtuli}|{jvsv jinmrtiterbi}|||||

|||{jvsn lantano general=1}|{jvsn cerio general=1}|{jvsn prazeodimo general=1}|{jvsn neodimo general=1}|{jvsn promecio general=1}|{jvsn samario general=1}|{jvsn euxropio general=1}|{jvsn gadolino general=1}|{jvsn terbio general=1}|{jvsn disprozio general=1}|{jvsn holmio general=1}|{jvsn erbio general=1}|{jvsn tulio general=1}|{jvsn iterbio general=1}|||||

|||Ac|Th|Pa|U|Np|Pu|Am|Cm|Bk|Cf|Es|Fm|Md|No|||||

|||{jvsv jinmrtaktini}|{jvsv lidycevjinme}|{jvsv jinmrprotaktini}|{jvsv jinmrvurani}|{jvsv jinmrneptuni}|{jvsv jinmrplutoni}|{jvsv merjinme}|{jvsv jinmrkuri}|{jvsv jinmrberkeli}|{jvsv jinmrkaliforni}|{jvsv jinmrtainctaini}|{jvsv jinmrfermi}|{jvsv jinmrmendelevi}|{jvsv jinmrnobeli}|||||

|||{jvsn aktinio general=1}|{jvsn torio general=1}|{jvsn protaktinio general=1}|{jvsn uranio general=1}|{jvsn neptunio general=1}|{jvsn plutonio general=1}|{jvsn americio general=1}|{jvsn kuriumo general=1}|{jvsn berkelio general=1}|{jvsn kaliforniumo general=1}|{jvsn ejnstejnio general=1}|{jvsn fermio general=1}|{jvsn mendelevio general=1}|{jvsv nobeliumo}|||||

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