jbovlaste import Perioda Tabelo de la Elementoj lang eo: Difference between revisions

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A long running, and apparently unresolvable dispute in the Lojban community is between those emphasising logical and grammatical rigor ("Logical Language"), and those emphasising creativity and perspective-expanding usage ("Sapir-Whorf"). A rallying point is whether or not Lojban should have an explicit semantic theory or not. "Hardliners" refers to the former.
{| class="wikitable"
 
|| H|| || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || He
''What is a semantic theory, and how do we get one without using a language? And if we use a language, how are we doing anything but importing the semantics of that source language into Lojban? Can you prove to me that you know the meaning of ANY word?--xod''
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|| cidro|| || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || solnavni
# You use the results of formal semantics, a research field that has been churning along nicely for many a year now.
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# Lojban has already adopted a lot of formal semantics in its definition. It has fixed and defined place structures, for example, and transformations for generating prenexed forms of sentences from unprenexed forms. The issue is, how much more fixed and defined they should be.
|| hidrogeno|| || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || || heliumo
#The completeness or not of a semantic theory is not the point; the point is, should there be further attempts at defining the semantics of Lojban words in a formal manner --- including gismu amd cmavo --- or not.
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#Obviously there is a risk of importing source language semantics into Lojban through a formal approach. The risk does not go away with 'natural evolution', given the speaker-base of the language. Indeed, if semantics is left completely informal, there is a good chance the risk is actually greater. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|| Li|| Be|| || || || || || || || || || || || B|| C|| N|| O|| F|| Ne
 
|-
''I'll come up with a counter-epithet in the fullness of time. -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]''
|| roksodna|| jinmrberilo|| || || || || || || || || || || || jicmrboro|| tabno|| trano|| kijno|| li'orkliru|| navni
 
|-
''Toffee-liners? -- [[jbocre: John Cowan|John Cowan]]'' For now, I'm using the less tendentious (!) 'naturalists'. This is a distant echo of the skemistoj/naturalistoj (= lujvo vs. fu'ivla) controversy of Esperanto, after all. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|| litio|| berilo|| || || || || || || || || || || || boro|| karbono|| nitrogeno|| oksigeno|| fluoro|| neono
 
|-
What about ''javnykai xarnu'' and ''tavlykai xarnu'' for these positions?
|| Na|| Mg|| || || || || || || || || || || || Al|| Si|| P|| S|| Cl|| Ar
 
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*I'd prefer rarnykai to tavlykai, but that's not for a javnykai xarnu to say. -- mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
|| sodna|| lidgusyjinme|| || || || || || || || || || || || jinmrmalume|| cancmu|| sackycmu|| sliri|| kliru|| laznynavni
*''I'm not sure either term gets the point across. One term should emphasize Logic, the other term should emphasize conceptual or experiential exploration. .i le lojypre le frisispre cu [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jbosnu/message/327 relpro] .i mi'e xod''
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|| natrio|| magnezio|| || || || || || || || || || || || aluminio|| silicio|| fosforo|| sulfuro|| kloro|| argono
There is also a third position, of those who think that logical and grammatical rigor are not in conflict with creativity and perspective-expansion, but rather that they complement and potentiate each other. -- mi'e [[User:xorxes|xorxes]].
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|| K|| Ca|| || Sc|| Ti|| V|| Cr|| Mn|| Fe|| Co|| Ni|| Cu|| Zn|| Ga|| Ge|| As|| Se|| Br|| Kr
* Yes, but you know the aphorism about "those in the middle of the road" :-) ... For issues like how a Lojban dictionary is to be written --- or whether it should even be written at all --- one still has to take a position.  In reality, of course, Lojbanists tend to be in between; these are rhetorical abstractions from the debates that recur in the language community. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]].
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|| sodnrkali|| bogjinme|| || jinmrskandi|| jinmrtitani|| jinmrvanadi|| rogjinme|| jinmrmanga|| tirse|| ridjinme|| nikle|| tunka|| zinki|| fasyjinme|| dotyjinme|| arseniko|| lurcmu|| xunkliru|| mipnavni
''It's not a "middle of the road" (at least not in the sense of a compromise between the two); it's the position that both rigor and creativity are important, equally so, and non-negotiable, and that neither need be, nor should be, compromised. -- Adam''
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|| kalio|| kalcio|| || skandio|| titanio|| vanado|| kromo|| mangano|| fero|| kobalto|| nikelo|| kupro|| zinko|| galiumo|| germaniumo|| arseno|| seleno|| bromo|| kriptono
Another recurring demand of hardliners is that an Academy be set up to supervise the evolution of Lojban. Gerald Koenig and Steven Belkamp were particuarly in favour of this, in discussion Nov. 95 - Feb 96. [[User:Bob LeChevalier|Bob LeChevalier]] is particularly adamant against it. Representative threads:
|-
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00037.html
|| Rb|| Sr|| || Y|| Zr|| Nb|| Mo|| Tc|| Ru|| Rh|| Pd|| Ag|| Cd|| In|| Sn|| Sb|| Te|| I|| Xe
*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9601/msg00232.html
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*http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9602/msg00041.html
|| xunsodna|| jinmrstronti|| || jinmrtitri|| jinmrzirkoni|| jinmrniobi|| mlibdena|| runjinme|| jinmlruteni|| jinmlrodi|| jinmrpaladi|| rijno|| jinmrkadmu|| xinjinme|| tinci|| antimoni|| tedjicmu|| zirkliru|| ciznavni
The caricature simplification of the two positions on the language is that hardliners support prescriptivism, rigorous definition of the language, and the logical content of the language. Naturalists support descriptivism, and avoidance of fully defining the language, creativity, and the natural evolution of the language.
|-
#Most Lojbanists really are somewhere in between.
|| rubidio|| stroncio|| || itrio|| zirkonio|| niobo|| molibdeno|| teknecio|| rutenio|| rodio|| paladio|| argxento|| kadmio|| indio|| stano|| stibio|| teluro|| iodo|| ksenono
#Neither attitude is going away any time soon. (The calls for a semantic theory or an Academy that are being made now have been made in the past, for example; e.g. Jeff Prothero in 1991, exclaiming "Better a bicycle without wheels than a loglan without formal semantics!": http://balance.wiw.org/~jkominek/lojban/9102/msg00006.html).
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#Although there are clear attempts at compromise, the two attitudes are incommensurable, and this may have undesirable consequences (dialectisation).
|| Cs|| Ba|| || Lu|| Hf|| Ta|| W|| Re|| Os|| Ir|| Pt|| Au|| Hg|| Tl|| Pb|| Bi|| Po|| At|| Rn
#Inasmuch as there is a party line espoused by the [[jbocre: LLG|LLG]], that line is clearly naturalistic.
|-
----
|| sodnrsezi|| tijyjinme|| girzrlantano|| jinmrluteti|| jinmrxafni|| jinmrtantalu|| gusyciljinme|| jinmlreni|| jinmrbosmi|| jinmrdiridi|| jinmrplati|| solji|| margu|| jinmrtali|| cnisa|| jinmrbismu|| jinmrpoloni|| klirlxastati|| dircynavni
Nonslang is called by the people who use slang, ''tatpi valsi'' ('tired words'), but by the people who don't, ''satci valsi'' ('accurate words').
|-
 
|| cezio|| bario|| lantanidoj|| lutecio|| hafnio|| tantalo|| volframo|| renio|| osmio|| iridio|| plateno|| oro|| hidrargo|| talio|| plumbo|| bizmuto|| polonio|| astato|| radono
''Woah! Pretty much identical terminology is used in Klingon!'' (''mu'mey Doy''' and ''mu'mey qar''.)
|-
 
|| Fr|| Ra|| || Lw|| Rf|| || || || || || || || || || || || || ||
They undoubtedly borrowed our usage.
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|| fasysodna|| dircyjinme|| girzrtaktini|| jinmrlorensi|| jinmlruterfordi|| || || || || || || || || || || || || ||
''net Sov, net Sov...'' ('''ti'e''', or '''zo'e djuno la'edi'u''')
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|| franciumo|| radiumo|| aktinidoj|| lauxrencio|| ruterfordio|| || || || || || || || || || || || || ||
----
|-
 
|| || || La|| Ce|| Pr|| Nd|| Pm|| Sm|| Eu|| Gd|| Tb|| Dy|| Ho|| Er|| Tu|| Yb|| || || || ||
Inasmuch as I appear to be getting characterized as a Naturalist, if not the prototypical Naturalist:
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|| || || jinmrlantano|| jinmrseri|| jinmrpraseodimi|| jinmrneodimi|| fagycevjinme|| jinmrsamari|| ronjinme|| jinmrgadolini|| jinmrterbi|| jinmrdisprosi|| jinmrxolmi|| jinmrberbi|| jinmrtuli|| jinmrtiterbi|| || || || ||
My background is from Physics, Math, and Logical Positivism. I don't see Lojban to be significantly more accurate or precise than English, or hand gestures. This, on a different Wiki, would be considered a hardline view. The result is that I don't care too much for hyperspecification of Lojban because it, like anything else that isn't a deductive system, is just another bowl of oatmeal. --xod
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|| || || lantano|| cerio|| prazeodimo|| neodimo|| promecio|| samario|| euxropio|| gadolino|| terbio|| disprozio|| holmio|| erbio|| tulio|| iterbio|| || || || ||
Noted. For my part, when I made the switch from computer science to linguistics, I made sure I joined up with the fluffiest, un-positivist-est linguistics I could: functionalism, historical linguistics, natural semantic metalanguage. I am allergic to syntax, and consider formal semantics beyond me. In my case, at least, I am a hardliner in Lojban because I am ''not'' a hardliner in real life. -- [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]
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|| || || Ac|| Th|| Pa|| U|| Np|| Pu|| Am|| Cm|| Bk|| Cf|| Es|| Fm|| Md|| No|| || || || ||
----
|-
 
|| || || jinmrtaktini|| lidycevjinme|| jinmrprotaktini|| jinmrvurani|| jinmrneptuni|| jinmrplutoni|| merjinme|| jinmrkuri|| jinmrberkeli|| jinmrkaliforni|| jinmrtainctaini|| jinmrfermi|| jinmrmendelevi|| jinmrnobeli|| || || || ||
As [[User:xorxes|xorxes]] has helpfully pointed out (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/message/9801), there are two hardlinerisms: hardliner towards the [[jbocre: baseline|baseline]] (''bangu kamstodi xarnu''), and hardliner towards [[jbocre: formal semantics|formal semantics]] (''logji bauske xarnu''). Discussion of hardlinerism to date seems to reflect the latter. The Academian thread of hardlinerism, however, reflects the former.
|-
 
|| || || aktinio|| torio|| protaktinio|| uranio|| neptunio|| plutonio|| americio|| kuriumo|| berkelio|| kaliforniumo|| ejnstejnio|| fermio|| mendelevio|| nobeliumo|| || || || ||
''I (mi'e [[User:Nick Nicholas|nitcion]]) think it might be useful to call the former something else, and propose [[jbocre: fundamentalism|fundamentalism]].''
|}
 
[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay Kominek]] has on his wiki page an admirable statement of ''bangu kamstodi xarnu''.
 
----
 
Is there a name for people who want to emphasize '''both''' "logical and grammatical rigor" '''and''' "creativity and perspective-expanding usage"? ''mi'e [[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax]]''
 
'Synthesist'? - mi'e JEsikas.
 
''Can you show that they are compatible, or that one induces the other?''
 
I would like to expand my perspective '''via''' logical and grammatical rigor. As I understand it, that was [[User:James Cooke Brown|JCB]]'s original motivation for inventing Loglan! ''mi'e [[jbocre: jezrax|jezrax]]''
 
''Then you need to build the '''''[[jbocre: ckinytadji|ckinytadji]]''''' dialect, because the level of logic in current standard Lojban is well below that used by pedantic undergrads debating religion late at night. Only when you make the metaphorical use of mathematical & logical descriptions much easier than they already are in English will you have any chance of the alteration of perceptions. If that's your goal and method, I'm with you! --xod''
 
* I didn't know a whole lot of people in my undergrad days (hah, i can act like it was a long time ago, now!) who went about debating religion with any sort of pedantry. More like "you must have faith!" "you're on crack!" "you're going to hell!" "better than wherever you're going." but then again, i was in engineering school... --[[jbocre: Jay Kominek|Jay]]
 
----
 
Can anyone shed light for me (a lojban n00b) on how the precepts of [http://general-semantics.org/ eneral semantics] might impact the questions being raised here? Thanks. --rabrt

Latest revision as of 20:19, 2 March 2015

H He
cidro solnavni
hidrogeno heliumo
Li Be B C N O F Ne
roksodna jinmrberilo jicmrboro tabno trano kijno li'orkliru navni
litio berilo boro karbono nitrogeno oksigeno fluoro neono
Na Mg Al Si P S Cl Ar
sodna lidgusyjinme jinmrmalume cancmu sackycmu sliri kliru laznynavni
natrio magnezio aluminio silicio fosforo sulfuro kloro argono
K Ca Sc Ti V Cr Mn Fe Co Ni Cu Zn Ga Ge As Se Br Kr
sodnrkali bogjinme jinmrskandi jinmrtitani jinmrvanadi rogjinme jinmrmanga tirse ridjinme nikle tunka zinki fasyjinme dotyjinme arseniko lurcmu xunkliru mipnavni
kalio kalcio skandio titanio vanado kromo mangano fero kobalto nikelo kupro zinko galiumo germaniumo arseno seleno bromo kriptono
Rb Sr Y Zr Nb Mo Tc Ru Rh Pd Ag Cd In Sn Sb Te I Xe
xunsodna jinmrstronti jinmrtitri jinmrzirkoni jinmrniobi mlibdena runjinme jinmlruteni jinmlrodi jinmrpaladi rijno jinmrkadmu xinjinme tinci antimoni tedjicmu zirkliru ciznavni
rubidio stroncio itrio zirkonio niobo molibdeno teknecio rutenio rodio paladio argxento kadmio indio stano stibio teluro iodo ksenono
Cs Ba Lu Hf Ta W Re Os Ir Pt Au Hg Tl Pb Bi Po At Rn
sodnrsezi tijyjinme girzrlantano jinmrluteti jinmrxafni jinmrtantalu gusyciljinme jinmlreni jinmrbosmi jinmrdiridi jinmrplati solji margu jinmrtali cnisa jinmrbismu jinmrpoloni klirlxastati dircynavni
cezio bario lantanidoj lutecio hafnio tantalo volframo renio osmio iridio plateno oro hidrargo talio plumbo bizmuto polonio astato radono
Fr Ra Lw Rf
fasysodna dircyjinme girzrtaktini jinmrlorensi jinmlruterfordi
franciumo radiumo aktinidoj lauxrencio ruterfordio
La Ce Pr Nd Pm Sm Eu Gd Tb Dy Ho Er Tu Yb
jinmrlantano jinmrseri jinmrpraseodimi jinmrneodimi fagycevjinme jinmrsamari ronjinme jinmrgadolini jinmrterbi jinmrdisprosi jinmrxolmi jinmrberbi jinmrtuli jinmrtiterbi
lantano cerio prazeodimo neodimo promecio samario euxropio gadolino terbio disprozio holmio erbio tulio iterbio
Ac Th Pa U Np Pu Am Cm Bk Cf Es Fm Md No
jinmrtaktini lidycevjinme jinmrprotaktini jinmrvurani jinmrneptuni jinmrplutoni merjinme jinmrkuri jinmrberkeli jinmrkaliforni jinmrtainctaini jinmrfermi jinmrmendelevi jinmrnobeli
aktinio torio protaktinio uranio neptunio plutonio americio kuriumo berkelio kaliforniumo ejnstejnio fermio mendelevio nobeliumo
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