jbovlaste import FrontPage lang ru: Difference between revisions

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Long ago in my salad days when I had not yet turned a tired and desiccated brown in judgement, I drew up for my own use a table showing how to rearrange places using SE, exactly of the sort given at [[jbocre: Rearranging arguments without using FA|Rearranging arguments without using FA]]. I even used ''setese'' and its ilk. As far as I recall, nobody had the patience to work out what I was saying, and I could never be bothered to learn the table.
==== Как Вы можете помочь ====


* ''For the record, this was done for Loglan 20 years ago or so. If we had access to those files, we would only need translation. As here, the Loglan decision was that the system was too messy to use.''
* Принимайте участие в [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/needed/ �оздании определений и голосовании]. Теперь эта ссылка - для любого языка, естественного или valsi.
* Если Вы говорите на языках, отличных от английского, помогите в создании [[jbovlaste import: Front Pages Needed �ребуемых титульных страниц lang ru]]. На всякой странице вики в правом нижнем углу находятся ссылки на существующие переводы её на другие языки.


selma'o SE itself is indispensible: there is no way to say {le ve broda} without using SE (except for ''le poi'i broda fo ke'a'' -- and the price of that is you're using an experimental cmavo.
* Добавляйте [[jbovlaste import: adding gismu gloss words �одстрочные переводы gismu lang ru]]
* Ищите, [[jbovlaste import: Things that should be in the printed dictionary �то следует включить в печатный словарь lang ru]]


But I have problems using SE. ''se'' itself is not too bad: the order 21345 feels natural to me. But I generally want 31235, 41235, 51234 much more often than the 32145, 42315, 52341 that ''te'', ''ve'', ''xe'' give you, and the SE-combos to get those orders are mindboggling -- for me, at least, they'd have to be learnt by rote as essentially noncompositional gestalts. And that's a Bad Thing.
* Работайте над списком [[jbovlaste import: lujvo mentioned in the word lists ujvo, упоминаемых в списках слов lang ru]].
* Работайте над списком [[jbovlaste import: noralujv entries with no definitions oralujv статей без определений lang ru]], особенно, если Вы - "ветеран".


* I decided to check how to do 51234 with SE. It turns out to be ''xe ve te se''. I had to use the Search function to find it!
==== Терминология ====
* actually ''xese broda'' (51342) is shorter...In fact:


***(Was Footnote: Fair enough, but 51342 overtaxes my brain. I can cope with any ordering of FA-tagged sumti, but for untagged sumti I need them to occur in canonical order, except for the sumti promoted by SE.)
* [[jbovlaste import: taxonomy �аксономия lang ru]]
** to get 31 = ''te se broda'' (312)
* [[jbovlaste import: boxing the compass lang ru]]


** to get 41 = ''ve se broda'' (4132)
* [[jbovlaste import: periodic table �ериодическая система элементов lang ru]]
** to get 51 = ''xe se broda'' (51342). Notice a pattern? I figured this all out when i first started learning Lojban, but then never used it (AFAIK) in any of my writing! (''mi'e maikl.'')
* [[jbovlaste import: calendar �алендарь lang ru]]


A further problem with using SE is that it fucks up the workings of FA. Suppose I want ordering 41, and for some reason or other need to get 4 first by using ''ve''. I can't remember the SE-combo for 41, so need to mark the 1 by FA. The problem is that ''fa'' is supposed to mark the x1 '''after''' SE-conversion, not before. So it's not enough that I know the place structure of the brivla. I also have to go through the computations of working out what position the ur x1 is. Yet another problem of FA/SE interactions is that without checking [[jbocre: Woldy|Woldy]] I can't remember whether ''fo ko'a ko'e broda'' yields 41 or 45 and whether ''broda fo ko'a ko'e'' yields 42 or 45.
* [[jbovlaste import: Terms from Robin's Writings �лова из сочинений Робина lang ru]]
* [[jbovlaste import: Dates �аты lang ru]]


* ''For the record again, the items after the flagged sumti are in order from the flagged place: {fo ke'a ke'o} is {fo ke'a fi ke'o}''
* [[jbovlaste import: Computer Terminology �омпьютерная терминология lang ru]]
* Do you mean ''fo ke'a '''fu''' ke'o''?
* [[jbovlaste import: cultures �ультуры lang ru]]


The dialect that appeals to me works thus:
* [[jbovlaste import: quantities �оличества lang ru]]
* [[jbovlaste import: emotions �моции lang ru]]


* Use of SE is sparing. No more than one SE on a selbri. When SE is used, FA is used for all but the derived x1 (unless ''se'' is used, in which case FA needn't be used for the derived x2).
* [[jbovlaste import: colours �вета lang ru]]
* ''fa, fe, fi, fo, fu'' always tag the underlying x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, in the manner of [[jbocre: foi'V|foi'V]].
* [[jbovlaste import: sciences �ауки lang ru]]


** '''Since {se broda} is offcially a new predicate, different from {broda}, it can be argued that there are NO underlying x1, etc. different from the surface x1.  This seems like hairsplitting.'''
* [[jbovlaste import: sewing lang ru]]
* the presence of FA-tagged sumti does not affect the place assigned to sumti that aren't FA-tagged, except in that places identified by FA-tagging are not available to be identified by sequence.


** ''Does this mean that {broda fo a b c d} is {broda b c a d} or {broda - b a c}?''
==== Thesaurus-like pages outside this wiki ====
** I mean that the for-me most intuitive rule would be that {broda fo a b c d} identifies a b c d as x4, x2, x3, x5 respectively. {fo a b c d broda} would identify them as x4, x1, x2, x3.


--And.
* [http://www.lojban.org/publications/wordlists/roget.txt oget's Thesaurus codes for gismu]
* [http://lexx.shinn.net/cmeclax/vlaste.html erminology for an email remailer]
 
* [http://members.lycos.co.uk/lojbanlinks/skari.html ojban color words] (compare with [[jbovlaste import: colours lang ru]])
* [http://phma.hn.org/Language/selratni.html eriodic table] (most information now in [[jbovlaste import: periodic table lang ru]])
 
==== Полезные инструменты ====
 
* Please [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Corpora earch] for occurences of words before you define them.
* As natlang keywords, we want any and all words for which the Lojban word in question is a reasonable translation. Use services such as [http://www.dict.org/ ict] or [http://wordnet.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn ordNet] (English only) to find synonyms.
 
* For help on wiki formatting, see [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/help/wikitext.html he wiki text help file].
* [[jbovlaste import: bad valsi lang ru]]
 
==== Мета-обсуждение ====
 
* [[jbovlaste import: canonical forms of lujvo �аноническая форма lujvo lang ru]]
* [[jbovlaste import: collating lang ru]]

Latest revision as of 14:51, 23 March 2014

Как Вы можете помочь

  • Принимайте участие в [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/needed/ �оздании определений и голосовании]. Теперь эта ссылка - для любого языка, естественного или valsi.
  • Если Вы говорите на языках, отличных от английского, помогите в создании [[jbovlaste import: Front Pages Needed �ребуемых титульных страниц lang ru]]. На всякой странице вики в правом нижнем углу находятся ссылки на существующие переводы её на другие языки.
  • Добавляйте [[jbovlaste import: adding gismu gloss words �одстрочные переводы gismu lang ru]]
  • Ищите, [[jbovlaste import: Things that should be in the printed dictionary �то следует включить в печатный словарь lang ru]]

Терминология

  • [[jbovlaste import: periodic table �ериодическая система элементов lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: calendar �алендарь lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: Terms from Robin's Writings �лова из сочинений Робина lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: Dates �аты lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: Computer Terminology �омпьютерная терминология lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: cultures �ультуры lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: quantities �оличества lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: emotions �моции lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: colours �вета lang ru]]
  • [[jbovlaste import: sciences �ауки lang ru]]

Thesaurus-like pages outside this wiki

Полезные инструменты

  • Please earch for occurences of words before you define them.
  • As natlang keywords, we want any and all words for which the Lojban word in question is a reasonable translation. Use services such as ict or ordNet (English only) to find synonyms.

Мета-обсуждение

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