Difference between revisions of "issues with checkpointed BPFK sections"

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This page is for concerns related to BPFK sections that are already passed and checkpointed. For BPFK sections that are '''not''' passed, see the relevant section itself.
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== Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005 ==
  
== Recursive Grammar and Fractals ==
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In [[BPFK Section: Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005]], the examples of {{jvs|di'o}} do not match the place structure of {{jvs|diklo}}.
 +
{{quotation|The definition and the examples seem very dubious for me, because {{jvs|diklo}} is defined as "x1 is local to x2; x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3". {{jvs|di'o}} marks x1 of {{jvs|diklo}}, i. e. something that is local or confined to a locus. So {broda di'o da} means that there is / happens {broda} such that {da} is confined to its locus. Consider the example {mi se jibri le sampla di'o la ibubymym}. If {la ibumbum} is x1 of {{jvs|diklo}}, then {la ibumbum} is confined to a locus of where the person works with software. The sentence actually means that the whole IBM is local to where the person works with software! That is something different from "I work with software at IBM"... I hope you got my English. mi'e .ianis.|E-mail from Yanis Batura}}
 +
Possible actions:
 +
# Rule that all usages of {{jvs|di'o}} is in error, and replace real examples with (correct) made-up ones.
 +
# Devise a lujvo that fits the place structure of "di'o" as it is actually used.
 +
arj (the original shepherd of the section) recommends alternative #1, as there are a handful of spatial tenses that could easily replace the use of {{jvs|di'o}} as intended.
  
One of the nifty properties of the Lojban grammar is that it is fully recursive. That is: any grammatically correct piece of Lojban text can be embedded within another piece of Lojban text.  Combined with the fact that Lojban can be parsed (and therefore synthesized) by machines, the possibility exists of creating Lojban sentences with a self-similar, or fractal, structure.
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== Text Structure cmavo as of 11 Feb 2005 ==
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{{quotation|This comment is s bit misleading, as it suggests that there is something special about MAI that breaks LALR(1). But even if MAI were to be removed from the language, or made prefix, the problem with numbers would remain just the same, because you can't tell "number MOI", "number ROI" and "number /BOI/" appart from each other without indefinite lookahead, the same goes for "lerfu-string MOI" vs. "lerfu-string /BOI/", and I think compound tags break LALR(1) too. "A term is either a sumti or a sumti preceded by a tense or modal tag." Also: "na ku", "tag ku" and the most weird "fa ku" are terms. mu'o mi'e xorxes|[[User:xorxes|la xorxes]]}}
  
The following is a simple example of one such fractal sentence.
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== Digressives ==
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{{quotation|{{jvs|sei}}
  
== la nelci bebna ==
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I think it should be clarified what it means "no trailing sumti", and possibly rephrased because the "no trailing sumti" should be distinct from the rest of the definition (as it is, the wording suggests that there is some other word that starts a discursive bridi that CAN have trailing sumti)Putting it in 2 sentences would probably solve this. For the former comment, it should be noted that i ku'i fe'e mo'a roi trene sei mi kelci pilno be zo roi is perfectly legal - i.e. trailing sumti have to be attached with be/bei|[[User:Bob_LeChevalier|la lojbab]]}}
 
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* [[User:Robin Lee Powell|la camgusmis]]:
'''la nelci bebna''' is a simple fractal Lojban sentence with the following grammar:
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**I suspect, strongly, that this can be fixed in the PEG, but haven't actually looked at it yetDoes anyone know the reason for this restriction?
 
 
^
 
 
 
<sentence> --> mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u <sentence> kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o <sentence> kei ku bebna kei ku
 
 
 
^
 
 
 
It means, roughly, "I like your talking about the fact of (this sentence) because of the fact that the idea of (this sentence) is foolish."
 
 
 
=== Prolog code for la necli bebna ===
 
 
 
The following Prolog code uses definite clause grammar (DCG) clauses to generate iterations of the '''la nelci bebna''' fractal.
 
 
 
^
 
 
 
~np~
 
 
 
buha(0) --> [[jbocre: 'bu''a'|'bu''a']].
 
 
 
~/np~
 
 
 
~np~
 
 
 
buha(N) --> {integer(N), N > 0, M is N-1},
 
 
 
[[jbocre: mi,nelci,'tu''a',lonu,do,tavla,fi,'lodu''u'|mi,nelci,'tu''a',lonu,do,tavla,fi,'lodu''u']], buha(M), [[jbocre: kei,kei|kei,kei]],
 
 
 
[[jbocre: 'mu''i','lodu''u','losi''o'|'mu''i','lodu''u','losi''o']], buha(M), [[jbocre: kei,ku,bebna,kei,ku|kei,ku,bebna,kei,ku]].
 
 
 
~/np~
 
 
 
^
 
 
 
=== Example Iterations ===
 
 
 
The zero'th iteration of '''la nelci bebna''' is just the terminal sentence ''bu'a''.
 
 
 
The first iteration is: ''mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku''.
 
 
 
The second: ''mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku''.
 
 
 
And so onSince each '''<sentence>''' has two branches, the number of ''bu'a''s in the Nth expansion is 2**N.
 
 
 
Here's '''la nelci bebna''' after five expansions (containing just 32 ''bu'a''s):
 
 
 
^
 
 
 
mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o mi nelci tu'a lonu do tavla fi lodu'u bu'a kei kei mu'i lodu'u losi'o bu'a kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku kei ku bebna kei ku
 
 
 
^
 
 
 
When fed to a Lojban parser, such as [http://www.lojban.org/j jboski], the above text parses nicely into a self-similar parse tree.  (Thanks to [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-user_information.php?view_user=a adamgarrigus] for catching a [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-view_forum_thread.php?forumId=1&amp;comments_parentId=5853&amp;comments_maxComments=1&amp;comments_style=commentStyle_threaded rammatical error] in the fractal.)
 
 
 
== Many More Possibilities! ==
 
 
 
Of course, '''la necli bebna''' is a simple and (as the name implies) rather silly sentence.  Much more meaningful, even profound, fractal sentences could be constructed in a similar fashion.  In fact, one could imagine fractal sentences becoming a new art form - maybe fractal poems will be written - unique among the literature of other languages, because of the recursive and unambiguous nature of Lojban's grammarThe possibilities are literally endless endless endless endless endless endless endless endless endless endless endless!
 

Latest revision as of 10:39, 13 April 2015

This page is for concerns related to BPFK sections that are already passed and checkpointed. For BPFK sections that are not passed, see the relevant section itself.

Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005

In BPFK Section: Tense sumtcita as of 16 Jun 2005, the examples of di'o do not match the place structure of diklo.

The definition and the examples seem very dubious for me, because diklo is defined as "x1 is local to x2; x1 is confined to locus x2 within range x3". di'o marks x1 of diklo, i. e. something that is local or confined to a locus. So {broda di'o da} means that there is / happens {broda} such that {da} is confined to its locus. Consider the example {mi se jibri le sampla di'o la ibubymym}. If {la ibumbum} is x1 of diklo, then {la ibumbum} is confined to a locus of where the person works with software. The sentence actually means that the whole IBM is local to where the person works with software! That is something different from "I work with software at IBM"... I hope you got my English. mi'e .ianis.

— E-mail from Yanis Batura

Possible actions:

  1. Rule that all usages of di'o is in error, and replace real examples with (correct) made-up ones.
  2. Devise a lujvo that fits the place structure of "di'o" as it is actually used.

arj (the original shepherd of the section) recommends alternative #1, as there are a handful of spatial tenses that could easily replace the use of di'o as intended.

Text Structure cmavo as of 11 Feb 2005

This comment is s bit misleading, as it suggests that there is something special about MAI that breaks LALR(1). But even if MAI were to be removed from the language, or made prefix, the problem with numbers would remain just the same, because you can't tell "number MOI", "number ROI" and "number /BOI/" appart from each other without indefinite lookahead, the same goes for "lerfu-string MOI" vs. "lerfu-string /BOI/", and I think compound tags break LALR(1) too. "A term is either a sumti or a sumti preceded by a tense or modal tag." Also: "na ku", "tag ku" and the most weird "fa ku" are terms. mu'o mi'e xorxes

la xorxes

Digressives

sei

I think it should be clarified what it means "no trailing sumti", and possibly rephrased because the "no trailing sumti" should be distinct from the rest of the definition (as it is, the wording suggests that there is some other word that starts a discursive bridi that CAN have trailing sumti). Putting it in 2 sentences would probably solve this. For the former comment, it should be noted that i ku'i fe'e mo'a roi trene sei mi kelci pilno be zo roi is perfectly legal - i.e. trailing sumti have to be attached with be/bei

la lojbab

  • la camgusmis:
    • I suspect, strongly, that this can be fixed in the PEG, but haven't actually looked at it yet. Does anyone know the reason for this restriction?