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[[File:828.sip|link=]] runs on Android
{{jbocre/en}}
The final letters of gismu remind me of verb endings in other langauges: they are completely arbitrary and meaningless.  We might as well have all the gismu end with "a".  It'd be so much easier to memorize.


[[File:831.sip|link=]] runs on Linux
''No it wouldn't. They are there from the gismu creation process to provide mnemonic assistance. How quickly would you learn ''bangu'' without the ''angu'' of the English (pronounced '''l''angu''edj''')? Would a Chinese speaker learn ''vanju'' as easily without the chinese ''jiu'' (pronounced'' '''ju''''') being the entire second syllable? If we did this, we would have to redo the gismu creation process to keep the same mnemonic advantage. I would agree with you, if it weren't already a ''very'' important part of the baseline - and one whose violation would result in everything I have ever written in the language becoming meaningless (at best). [[jbocre: ki'ai|ki'ai]] [[jbocre: Nalgol|nabjol]]! - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''


[[File:830.sip|link=]] runs on Mac
Yes, well, the same could be argued for pretty much any natural language.  But in fact, the potential reform would not render meaningless your entire work; it would make it easier for others to make their own works, but yours would remain intact.  We don't necessarily have to change all the endings to "a"--all that is really necessary is dropping the necessity of using the arbitrary endings already assigned.  Maybe the final letter should be a matter of choice.  If it's easier for you to remember "gismu" than just "gism-", go ahead and use that, but don't restrict others' right to say "gismi".  If we're going to assign endings arbitrarily, we might as well not fix them permanently.


[[File:829.sip|link=]] runs on Windows
''Yes, but if you are going to assign them ''non''-arbitrarily, then we should fix them permanently. You seem to have convieniently forgotten everything I said above when you went to respond to it. If you are told that it is ''vanj'' then you are not going to think of saying ''vanju'' just because it fits with the chinese word. However, a Chinese speaker will find vanju easier to remember than vanj, just as I at least find bangu easier to remember than bang. The reform that would render my writing meaningless is to provide the same level of aid by doing the whole process over again without including the final vowel.''


[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] runs in browser or universally
''Not that we ''are'' restricting your right to say 'gismi' and be understood, as the final vowel is redundant and people will know you meant gismu, it is just that it is nonstandard. This is a Good Thing, as it also provides error-checking. When I wrote ''cuska'' in [[jbocre: Round two|round two]] of the [[Broken Phone|broken phone]] game, [[User:Pier.abat|Pierre]] knew I had screwed up. He also knew that it was equally likely to be cusku as ciska. He was right, typos do not conform to the morphology of the typoer's language unless they think in words (which I do not). So, under your proposal, ''ko'a cmala'' will be interpreted as ''ko'a is small'', when in fact it may very well be a typo of ''ko'a laughs''; in a world of perfect typosts you would be absolutely right but there is no such beast - even the best writer makes a mistake every once in a while. Do you want mistakes to be meaning-altering with this frequency? Or would you rather have the spell check notice that you would under your proposal have just said the opposite of what you meant? And do you really want to destroy the ''broda''-series?'


== Dictionaries ==
''Since you do not like to respond to more than the last sentence of my posts (in case you didn't bother to read this one either it is noted up above that you ignored most of my previous comment) I am hereby not adding any content whatsoever to this sentence, except to remind you that you ought to read the entirity of both posts because otherwise your next response will make you sound like an idiot. - mi'e. [[jbocre: .kreig.daniyl.|.kreig.daniyl.]]''


*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] The Lojban dictionary project, [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/ jbovlaste], is now in full swing.  There are complete or near-complete dictionaries for Spanish, Esperanto, and English, and the Lojban-in-Lojban dictionary is progressing rapidly.
ni'o .e'a .i ku'i finti le gismu zo'e lo valsi bei le no'e logji bangu ja'e le nu no'e logji
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ vlasisku] is an easy-to-use online Lojban <-> English dictionary. It is a convenient way to browse and search the definitions from the jbovlaste database.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] A [[GoldenDict]] distribution for lojban is available now. It has numerous dictionaries suitable for everyone. The best offline choice.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://fricukt.tiddlyspot.com/ fricukt] supports any operating system where Chrome, Firefox, Opera or Safari browser can run on. The list of supported devices includes iPads, most Android devices and Chromebooks. Download the app (which is in fact just a sophisticated web-page) using corresponding link there or use it online. Touchscreen-friendly. Also contains some useful tables of cmavo etc.   
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=835&amp;page=Dictionaries%2C%20Glossers%20and%20parsers&amp;download=y QuickDict] is a fairly simple autoit script that sits in the windows tray waiting to be needed.  It uses system copy/paste (preserving the original clipboard contents) so anywhere that you can highlight text, you can get a definition of that text.  Also supports asking jbovlaste if it does not know the selected word itself.  It can also deconstruct lujvo into their component gismu/definitions.
*[[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[LojbanDictionary|Lojban dictionary]] is a gismu dictionary used to learn Lojban.
*[[File:828.sip|link=]]  [http://mbays.freeshell.org/vlacihe.html vlaci'e] - an associative wordlist navigator. The backend is a perl script which can be downloaded.
 
=== Others ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] If you have a dict client, you can set it to www.lojban.org, port 2628. Dict clients allow you to quickly look up the definition of a word. For Linux, try kdict or gdict (usually installed by default). For windows, have a look at [http://www.dict.org/links.html dict.org].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://developer.berlios.de/projects/sutfak/ Quick reference dictionary software]
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] you can also seach the [[jbocre: Word Lists|Word Lists]] using a text editor which might be useful for smartphones or tablets.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=802&amp;download=y here] are dictionary files suitable for [http://stardict.sourceforge.net/ Stardict]. The Stardict file format is also used by [http://www.socialnmobile.com/colordict.html ColorDict], a dictionary program for Android mobile devices.
 
== Glossers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.barsoom.net/lojban/gloss/masmuni.cgi macmavo] - A glossing program (using gci). ''doesn't look like it works -- mi'e.aleks.''
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://hypermetrics.com/pikmin.html pikmin] - Another glossing program (using cgi).
 
== Parsers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] http://ilmen.tk/lojban/camxes.html - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser (official grammar)
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [[La Bangu: ilmentufa|ilmentufa]] - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser (experimental grammar)
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] The [[jbocre: Official Parser|Official Parser]]
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] (Java) [[jbocre: camxes|camxes]]
 
*[[File:831.sip|link=]]  [http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/jbogenturfahi jbogenturfa'i] - [[jbocre: .alyn.post.|.alyn.post.]]'s parser.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]]  [http://www.rc0.org.uk/jbofihe/ jbofi'e] - The ''de facto'' standard parser and glosser for Lojban.
** [[jbocre: lujvo expander|lujvo expander]] in python that uses vlatai from jbofi'e.
*** [http://mbays.freeshell.org/jvofendi-0.1.tgz another one] in C.
** the ''de jure'' standard parser remains the dos version in the old Lojban files mentioned below.
**[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]]  [http://www.lojban.org/jboski] - A web-based version of of [[jbocre: Richard Curnow|Richard Curnow]]'s [[jbocre: jbofihe|jbofihe]]; acts as a Lojban to English translator.  Made by [[jbocre: Raphal Poss|Raphal Poss]], hosted at [http://www.lojban.org/].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [http://pdf23ds.net/lojgloss lojgloss] A glosser and parser by pdf23ds. Tries to combine the best parts of jbofi'e with the accuracy of the PEG grammar and morphology.
 
==  Word lists ==
* [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/lojban-ispell-hashfile.html ispell data files] - Data files to allow Lojban spell checking with ispell
* [http://www.tomeraider.com Tomeraider] files containing the [[jbocre: gismu|gismu]] list (English and Lojban ordering), the [[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] list ([[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] and [[jbocre: selma'o|selma'o]] ordering), the [[jbocre: rafsi|rafsi]] list and the [[BNF|BNF]] grammar, for [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.tr.zip PC] and [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.pdb.zip Palm Pilot]
* [[jbocre: A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output|A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output]] by [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong|Jordan DeLong]]
 
==  Old Lojban Software ==
Can be found on [[Talk:Old_Pages:_Dictionaries,_Glossers_and_parsers|Talk page]].
 
== Dictionaries ==
 
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] The Lojban dictionary project, [http://www.lojban.org/jbovlaste/ jbovlaste], is now in full swing.  There are complete or near-complete dictionaries for Spanish, Esperanto, and English, and the Lojban-in-Lojban dictionary is progressing rapidly.
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://vlasisku.lojban.org/ vlasisku] is an easy-to-use online Lojban <-> English dictionary. It is a convenient way to browse and search the definitions from the jbovlaste database.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] A [[GoldenDict]] distribution for lojban is available now. It has numerous dictionaries suitable for everyone. The best offline choice.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:828.sip|link=]] [http://fricukt.tiddlyspot.com/ fricukt] supports any operating system where Chrome, Firefox, Opera or Safari browser can run on. The list of supported devices includes iPads, most Android devices and Chromebooks. Download the app (which is in fact just a sophisticated web-page) using corresponding link there or use it online. Touchscreen-friendly. Also contains some useful tables of cmavo etc.   
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=835&amp;page=Dictionaries%2C%20Glossers%20and%20parsers&amp;download=y QuickDict] is a fairly simple autoit script that sits in the windows tray waiting to be needed.  It uses system copy/paste (preserving the original clipboard contents) so anywhere that you can highlight text, you can get a definition of that text.  Also supports asking jbovlaste if it does not know the selected word itself.  It can also deconstruct lujvo into their component gismu/definitions.
*[[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[LojbanDictionary|Lojban dictionary]] is a gismu dictionary used to learn Lojban.
*[[File:828.sip|link=]]  [http://mbays.freeshell.org/vlacihe.html vlaci'e] - an associative wordlist navigator. The backend is a perl script which can be downloaded.
 
=== Others ===
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] If you have a dict client, you can set it to www.lojban.org, port 2628. Dict clients allow you to quickly look up the definition of a word. For Linux, try kdict or gdict (usually installed by default). For windows, have a look at [http://www.dict.org/links.html dict.org].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [http://developer.berlios.de/projects/sutfak/ Quick reference dictionary software]
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] you can also seach the [[jbocre: Word Lists|Word Lists]] using a text editor which might be useful for smartphones or tablets.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-download_wiki_attachment.php?attId=802&amp;download=y here] are dictionary files suitable for [http://stardict.sourceforge.net/ Stardict]. The Stardict file format is also used by [http://www.socialnmobile.com/colordict.html ColorDict], a dictionary program for Android mobile devices.
 
== Glossers ==
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://www.barsoom.net/lojban/gloss/masmuni.cgi macmavo] - A glossing program (using gci). ''doesn't look like it works -- mi'e.aleks.''
*[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]] [http://hypermetrics.com/pikmin.html pikmin] - Another glossing program (using cgi).
 
== Parsers ==
*http://ilmen.tk/lojban/camxes.html - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser (official grammar)
*[[La Bangu: ilmentufa|ilmentufa]] - [[User:Ilmen|Ilmen]]'s parser (experimental grammar)
*[[File:829.sip|link=]] The [[jbocre: Official Parser|Official Parser]]
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] (Java) [[jbocre: camxes|camxes]]
 
*[[File:831.sip|link=]]  [http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/jbogenturfahi jbogenturfa'i] - [[jbocre: .alyn.post.|.alyn.post.]]'s parser.
*[[File:831.sip|link=]]  [http://www.rc0.org.uk/jbofihe/ jbofi'e] - The ''de facto'' standard parser and glosser for Lojban.
** [[jbocre: lujvo expander|lujvo expander]] in python that uses vlatai from jbofi'e.
*** [http://mbays.freeshell.org/jvofendi-0.1.tgz another one] in C.
** the ''de jure'' standard parser remains the dos version in the old Lojban files mentioned below.
**[[File:Gnome-globe.svg|link=]]  [http://www.lojban.org/jboski] - A web-based version of of [[jbocre: Richard Curnow|Richard Curnow]]'s [[jbocre: jbofihe|jbofihe]]; acts as a Lojban to English translator.  Made by [[jbocre: Raphal Poss|Raphal Poss]], hosted at [http://www.lojban.org/].
*[[File:831.sip|link=]] [[File:829.sip|link=]] [[File:830.sip|link=]] [http://pdf23ds.net/lojgloss lojgloss] A glosser and parser by pdf23ds. Tries to combine the best parts of jbofi'e with the accuracy of the PEG grammar and morphology.
 
==  Word lists ==
* [http://arj.nvg.org/lojban/lojban-ispell-hashfile.html ispell data files] - Data files to allow Lojban spell checking with ispell
* [http://www.tomeraider.com Tomeraider] files containing the [[jbocre: gismu|gismu]] list (English and Lojban ordering), the [[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] list ([[jbocre: cmavo|cmavo]] and [[jbocre: selma'o|selma'o]] ordering), the [[jbocre: rafsi|rafsi]] list and the [[BNF|BNF]] grammar, for [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.tr.zip PC] and [http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/dist/lojban.pdb.zip Palm Pilot]
* [[jbocre: A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output|A simple perl script for grepping the word lists with colorized output]] by [[jbocre: Jordan DeLong|Jordan DeLong]]
 
==  Old Lojban Software ==
Can be found on [[Talk:Old_Pages:_Dictionaries,_Glossers_and_parsers|Talk page]].

Revision as of 17:26, 6 December 2013

The final letters of gismu remind me of verb endings in other langauges: they are completely arbitrary and meaningless. We might as well have all the gismu end with "a". It'd be so much easier to memorize.

No it wouldn't. They are there from the gismu creation process to provide mnemonic assistance. How quickly would you learn bangu without the angu of the English (pronounced languedj)? Would a Chinese speaker learn vanju as easily without the chinese jiu (pronounced ju) being the entire second syllable? If we did this, we would have to redo the gismu creation process to keep the same mnemonic advantage. I would agree with you, if it weren't already a very important part of the baseline - and one whose violation would result in everything I have ever written in the language becoming meaningless (at best). ki'ai nabjol! - mi'e. .kreig.daniyl.

Yes, well, the same could be argued for pretty much any natural language. But in fact, the potential reform would not render meaningless your entire work; it would make it easier for others to make their own works, but yours would remain intact. We don't necessarily have to change all the endings to "a"--all that is really necessary is dropping the necessity of using the arbitrary endings already assigned. Maybe the final letter should be a matter of choice. If it's easier for you to remember "gismu" than just "gism-", go ahead and use that, but don't restrict others' right to say "gismi". If we're going to assign endings arbitrarily, we might as well not fix them permanently.

Yes, but if you are going to assign them non-arbitrarily, then we should fix them permanently. You seem to have convieniently forgotten everything I said above when you went to respond to it. If you are told that it is vanj then you are not going to think of saying vanju just because it fits with the chinese word. However, a Chinese speaker will find vanju easier to remember than vanj, just as I at least find bangu easier to remember than bang. The reform that would render my writing meaningless is to provide the same level of aid by doing the whole process over again without including the final vowel.

Not that we are restricting your right to say 'gismi' and be understood, as the final vowel is redundant and people will know you meant gismu, it is just that it is nonstandard. This is a Good Thing, as it also provides error-checking. When I wrote cuska in round two of the broken phone game, Pierre knew I had screwed up. He also knew that it was equally likely to be cusku as ciska. He was right, typos do not conform to the morphology of the typoer's language unless they think in words (which I do not). So, under your proposal, ko'a cmala will be interpreted as ko'a is small, when in fact it may very well be a typo of ko'a laughs; in a world of perfect typosts you would be absolutely right but there is no such beast - even the best writer makes a mistake every once in a while. Do you want mistakes to be meaning-altering with this frequency? Or would you rather have the spell check notice that you would under your proposal have just said the opposite of what you meant? And do you really want to destroy the broda-series?'

Since you do not like to respond to more than the last sentence of my posts (in case you didn't bother to read this one either it is noted up above that you ignored most of my previous comment) I am hereby not adding any content whatsoever to this sentence, except to remind you that you ought to read the entirity of both posts because otherwise your next response will make you sound like an idiot. - mi'e. .kreig.daniyl.

ni'o .e'a .i ku'i finti le gismu zo'e lo valsi bei le no'e logji bangu ja'e le nu no'e logji