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ni'a lo tsani


Legge's translation is [http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/taote.htmx here].
lo nu jijnu lo nu melbi pe lo melbi


''Oh, no! Good mark for internet search, but don't interlard! Imagine why I tried to get the text's translation directly from Chinese! In order to get you out of your <d> Western thinking. Please do net let good old Legge formulate these thoughts in fenced-in English for you, but try to be creative in Lojban '''before''' having the very idea expressed in any Western grammar! Your remarks are all somehow to the point, yet, don't just run the fish machine and tell me the output, but take the Book, reflect on it and give creative answers, e.g. on the "possible" use of {ku} or the real meaning of what you just are calling " epistemology" from looking into your software for the gismu! - Luckily not having chosen a teacher's profession :]''
cu se jalge lo nu pu'ojeca zasti falo melbi nai


Maybe we try [[jbocre: ChungYang nother one|ChungYang nother one]]?
.i lo nu jijnu lo nu vrude pe lo vrude


----
cu se jalge lo nu pu'ojeca zasti falo vrude nai


[http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/laozi.gif]
i puzunu


ni'a lo tsani ku
lonu zasti jo'u lonu na zasti cu finti simxu


lo li'i jijnu le du'u melbi kei lo melbi
.i loka nandu jo'u loka frili cu rinka simxu


cu se jalge lenu pu'ojeca zasti falo nalmelbi
.i loka clani jo'u loka tordu cu merli simxu


.i lo li'i jijnu le du'u vrude kei lo vrude
.i loka galtu jo'u loka dizlu cu bapli simxu


cu se jalge lenu pu'ojeca zasti falo nalvu'e
.i lo voksa lo sance cu sarxe


puzuku
.i ca nu lo purci lo bavli cu kalte jersi


lonu zasti ce lonu na zasti cu finsi'u
==krasi==
http://www.fa-kuan.muc.de/laozi.gif


.i loka nandu ce loka frili cu riksi'u
天 下 皆 知 美 之 為 美 , 斯 惡 已 ;
 
.i loka clani ce loka tordu cu mresi'u
 
.i loka galtu ce loka dizlu cu bapsi'u
 
.i lo voksa lo sance cu sarxe


.i caku lo purci lo bavli cu katyje'i
皆 知 善 之 為 善 , 斯 不 善 已。


''This is a direct translation from ancient Chinese to Lojban. I'd be '''interested in your translation''' to English, or any other language you're familiar with. co'omi'e .aulun.''
故 有 無 相 生 , 難 易 相 成 , 長 短 相 形 , 高 下 相 傾 ,


----
音 聲 相 和 , 前 後 相 隨 。


I have a lot of questions about this translation. ''Me too, that's why I put it here'' To start:
是 以 聖 人 處 無 為 之 事 , 行 不 言 之 教 。


* [[jbocre: uses of ku? s ''munjyne'i ku'' grammatical?]]
萬 物 作 而 不 辭 ,  
** If so, why not ''mujne'i ku''?


*** I didn't write it, but I assume because for nonce lujvo it's better to leave the unfamiliar part expanded out.
生 而 不 有 , 為 而 不 恃 ,  
** Why should it ''not'' be grammatical (yet don't want to discuss basics here). But I like {mujne'i} even better for being shorter.


** jbofi'e considers it ungrammatical. It's right; I can't find a grammar rule to support the construction <brivla> + ''ku''. It becomes grammatical if, say, ''le'' or ''ro'' is put in front (making it a regular sumti of se jalge and messing up the rest). ''Yes, in '''this''' special case the problem could be avoided by'' {ne'i lo munje ku...} '' or more literally'' {ni'a lo tsani ku} ''but...''
成 功 不 居 。
*** But what? Is ''fi'o'' not good enough for other cases?


* I don't understand ''lo melbi'' as a ''te jijnu''. How can ''lo melbi'' be an epistemology under which one intuits?
夫 唯 不 居 , 是 以 不 去 。
** In the last moment, I thought {jijnu} being better than {djuno} to give Chinese "zhi1" (which has many shades of meaning) and I didn't have problems with the place called "epistemology"


* ''pu'ojeca zasti falo nalmelbi'' Is that better than simply ''pu'ojeca nalmelbi''? The meaning seems to be nearly identical.
==English translation==
**What '''is''' the meaning? ;-)
''Tao Te Ching.''


* ''dizlu'' must be a typo for ''dizlo''. Are ''galtu'' and ''dizlo'' being used in a metaphorical sense? Do they mean something like heavenly and earthly, or powerful and weak?
1. All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skillful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is.
**It should be ''dizlo'' (typo!) - Thanks. Don't think that it's meant metaphorically, since Chinese tends to be pretty concrete.


* ''lo voksa joi lo sance cu saxsi'u'' It seems odd to use a lujvo with ''simxu'' for a set with one member. Is this somehow a better translation than simply ''lo voksa lo sance cu sarxe''?
2. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.
** And here you '''are''' absolutely right, thanks! ''You can call it {pevykalci}'' :( (I forgot to change the lujvo when altering this verse's sumti from something like ''{ro voksa}'' to ''voksa joi sance'' following the Chinese original.) I'll change that.


----
3. Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech.


''Why ''daudydjin.''? Why not a tanru based on ''dadjo''?''
4. All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership; they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no resting in it (as an achievement).
The work is done, but how no one can see;


*No, because it's a proper name you can't even really translate into other languages (remember the many different versions existing!) so it's better to leave it as it is. (Something with {dadjo} and {dargu} and {cukta} wouldn't be appropriate - ''lo'i cukta pe lo dargu .e lo vrude'' brrr)
'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be.

Latest revision as of 13:47, 24 May 2014

ni'a lo tsani

lo nu jijnu lo nu melbi pe lo melbi

cu se jalge lo nu pu'ojeca zasti falo melbi nai

.i lo nu jijnu lo nu vrude pe lo vrude

cu se jalge lo nu pu'ojeca zasti falo vrude nai

i puzunu

lonu zasti jo'u lonu na zasti cu finti simxu

.i loka nandu jo'u loka frili cu rinka simxu

.i loka clani jo'u loka tordu cu merli simxu

.i loka galtu jo'u loka dizlu cu bapli simxu

.i lo voksa lo sance cu sarxe

.i ca nu lo purci lo bavli cu kalte jersi

krasi

laozi.gif

天 下 皆 知 美 之 為 美 , 斯 惡 已 ;

皆 知 善 之 為 善 , 斯 不 善 已。

故 有 無 相 生 , 難 易 相 成 , 長 短 相 形 , 高 下 相 傾 ,

音 聲 相 和 , 前 後 相 隨 。

是 以 聖 人 處 無 為 之 事 , 行 不 言 之 教 。

萬 物 作 而 不 辭 ,

生 而 不 有 , 為 而 不 恃 ,

成 功 不 居 。

夫 唯 不 居 , 是 以 不 去 。

English translation

Tao Te Ching.

1. All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skillful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is.

2. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another.

3. Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech.

4. All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership; they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no resting in it (as an achievement). The work is done, but how no one can see;

'Tis this that makes the power not cease to be.